RUSSIA, CHINA to sell planes to Pakistan

[FreeAsia2000]

All i'm going to say is TOLD YOU SO. :D

It appears that Russian-Pakistani relations are now in a new spring
also Pakistan has given the F-16's the cold shoulder.

I suspected that the earthquake reason was only an excuse to turn
them down without making the US lose face.



Pakistan may buy US, Chinese and Soviet planes

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided to purchase state-of-the-art Chinese F-10 (Jian-10) multi-role fighter-cum-bomber planes

Meanwhile Moscow has signalled to Pakistan that like the US, it could also de-hyphenate its ties with Pakistan and India. As a result of this change in thinking, Pakistan could also go for Russian made planes for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).



Meanwhile Pakistan is also eying the Russian defence production market. When President General Pervez Musharaf visited Moscow in February 2003, the Russians offered to Pakistan choppers but the deal could not materialize for certain reasons and now Islamabad has received positive signals from Moscow that could encourage it to buy some Russian planes. The Russian technology is very close to that being used by the Chinese and it would not be a difficult proposition for Pakistan to maintain such a system if Russians agree to supply Pakistan, the sources hinted. The Russian defence products are comparatively cheaper than the Western products.

Sources said that Islamabad and Moscow have started making contacts to initiate cooperation in the field of defence in some way. The Russians stakes are high in the case of defence supplies for the Indians but ever since New Delhi has opted to go in Washington's orbit in a big way, Moscow is considering Pakistan's request favourably, the sources added.




http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2006-daily/03-04-2006/main/main8.htm

[Indianfighter]

The news about the sale of J-10s to Pakistan by China was expected, as the J-10 was demonstrated to general Musharraf, when he visited China last month.The Chinese do not usually demonstrate their weapons to visitng dignitories.

But the news about the sale of weapons by Russia to Pakistan is suspicious, if not impossible. Russia has clearly denied the sale of RD-93 engines to Pakistan since the beginning of 2006. So the sudden proposals of helicopter sales and other hardware does not seem possible.

The situation is analogous to military co-operation between India and China.

[vincelee]

no it's not.

Russia needs a new customer. Besides, while India might currently be Russia's largest arms importer, that could change very quickly, just look at China.

However, the quality of the article is...subpar.

[FreeAsia2000]

no it's not.

Russia needs a new customer. Besides, while India might currently be Russia's largest arms importer, that could change very quickly, just look at China.

However, the quality of the article is...subpar.

The Jang for some unknown reason despite having a rather excellent
English section published in London uses software translated material from it's Pakistani offices on it's website.

However Pakistani-Russian relations are moving ahead at a good pace although
the Russians think it's not fast enough


Thursday, March 02, 2006 E-Mail this article to a friend Printer Friendly Version

Pakistan and Russia agree to boost economic relations

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and Russia have agreed to find ways to boost economic relations between the government and private entrepreneurs of the two countries.

Russian Ambassador Sergey N Peskov called on Dr Salman Shah, Adviser to the Prime Minister on Finance, Revenue, Economic Affairs and Statistics, at the ministry of finance on Wednesday and discussed matters of mutual interest, including ways to expand economic and trade links between the two countries and their private sectors.

While discussing bilateral trade and various projects of construction and power sectors, it was felt that the current two-way trade of $300 million a year is much less than the potential and resource bases of the two countries. The meeting agreed to find ways to boost the economic links in different fields between the government and private entrepreneurs of the two countries.

The Russian ambassador informed that a delegation of top companies of Russia would visit Pakistan this month and would also hold an exhibition in Karachi to introduce products and services, which could be offered to the government and the private sector for mutual. He said they were eager to participate in power projects in Pakistan as well as avail of the upcoming investment opportunities under the privatization programme of Pakistan, including participation in bidding for the Pakistan Steel.

While giving a brief introduction of Pakistan’s economy and its transparent privatization programme, Dr Shah pointed out that the adjacent excess land of Pakistan Steel, Karachi, would be offered to establish an industrial park, manufacturing units of automobile and various manufacturing clusters. It would increase the profitability of the Pakistan Steel.

The adviser suggested to the Russian ambassador to explore the possibilities of reviving old export houses, which used to export textile and other products to Russia and vice versa.

The meeting agreed to find ways to improve transportation, including cargo movement, between the two countries through land and air routes in the framework of the Shanghai Forum. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C03%5C02%5Cstory_2-3-2006_pg5_6

for instance see the recent purchase of Pakistans steel mills by a joint Saudi-Russian group...unthinkable a few years ago

Of course Pakistan will need to be careful in any assistance it agree's to provide Russia.

[Indianfighter]

The relationship between India and Russia is metamorphosizing into co-operation from the previous one of buyer-seller.
Co-operative projects such as the Brahmos missile, avionics of the Su-30 MKI, nuclear-powered submarine, launching of GLONASS sattelites by India, besides their joint-development, proposal for joint development of 5th generation interceptor and the latest offering by Russia of the I-2000 jet for the 126 MMRCA combat jet tender of India are indications of this.

Sources:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/22/stories/2006032206241300.htm
www.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/22jet.htm
www.force-india.net

Thus, the co-operation between Russia and India shall be affected if Russia sells military hardware to Pakistan, since the very purpose of the co-operation shall be lost.

Thus, it is unlikely that Russia shall sell military hardware to Pakistan.

[FreeAsia2000]

The relationship between India and Russia is metamorphosizing into co-operation from the previous one of buyer-seller.
Co-operative projects such as the Brahmos missile, avionics of the Su-30 MKI, nuclear-powered submarine, launching of GLONASS sattelites by India, besides their joint-development, proposal for joint development of 5th generation interceptor and the latest offering by Russia of the I-2000 jet for the 126 MMRCA combat jet tender of India are indications of this.

Sources:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/22/stories/2006032206241300.htm
www.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/22jet.htm
www.force-india.net

Thus, the co-operation between Russia and India shall be affected if Russia sells military hardware to Pakistan, since the very purpose of the co-operation shall be lost.

Thus, it is unlikely that Russia shall sell military hardware to Pakistan.


**********************************
Moderators edit: This thread has nothing to do with tanks. Please be carefull what you post.

--Our relations with Pakistan have changed since this tank sale was originally discussed: (1) US intelligence facilities in Pakistan have closed; (2) 200 Soviet tanks are scheduled to be delivered by the end of 1970.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e7txt/50082.htm

Unfortunately IndianFighter you see everything as a zero-sum game.

Pakistani gain = Indian loss. Life isn't as simple as that and Russian calculations of diplomatic gain are not hostage to Indian wishes.

The world is moving into a stage where Russia is recognising Pakistan's potential as a route to the Indian ocean and it's links with the rest of the Muslim world. If you ever visit Pakistan you'll be stunned to see how Pakistan
is now interacting with Central Asia.

[tphuang]

Look guys, we just got one thread closed on this forum, because this news was already posted in the J-10 thread. Now, you are starting another one? Since it seems to be more about the warming of Pakistani and Indian relationship, I will let it slide. Just make sure to check the threads in the future, okay?

[FreeAsia2000]

Look guys, we just got one thread closed on this forum, because this news was already posted in the J-10 thread. Now, you are starting another one? Since it seems to be more about the warming of Pakistani and Indian relationship, I will let it slide. Just make sure to check the threads in the future, okay?

Sorry I didn't realise you had already posted it.

I wanted to refer to the fact that Pakistan may be buying Russian weapons in future.

Apologies i've edited the Jang article to reflect that fact

[ArjunMk1]

**************************'

Gollevainen's edit: This thread has nothing to do with either tanks nor India so watch out what you post!!!

[FreeAsia2000]

Its J10 with Ruskie Engine that is going to enter Pakistan !!! Thats all , Pak taboloids are famous for making fables . Do u think Pakistan will buy Mig29s , Flankers from Russia ??? Indians know these machine inside out , its far safer to buy things from China !! Moreover if India quits Russians and switch to american industries , Russian defence firms will just starve to death ....

BTW : When did Russia gave tank tp Pak ?? I thought that the order was later cancelled and Pakistan ended up with Chinese Type 59.

Well it's a start....the longest journey begins with a single step.

of course Russia is going to need Pakistan more in the future than Pakistan
will need Russia because Pakistan is well on the route to becoming one
of the world's major transit routes for energy.

Saudi-China via Pakistan
Iran - India via Pakistan
Goods via China to middle east via Pakistan

labour and services via everywhere else to Sunni Central Asia..
it's unbelievable how many Central Asians there are now in
Pakistan and vice versa and Urdu is becoming THE business language
in Central Asia.

Plus of course lets not forget the massive influence that Pakistan
has on islamic nations in the middle east and beyond. Which is
Pakistan's 'soft power' or cultural influence on the rest of the world

Perhaps you should look at the role of shipping in the rise of nations ?

A good essay to read is at

http://www.etext.org/Politics/Progressive.Sociologists/authors/Frank.Gunder/5000-yr-WS-intro

[Indianfighter]

The article mentions ""People's Chinese Air Force (PCAF)"" and the sale of tanks by Russia to Pakistan in the 1970s, which infact never occured.

It mentions "'It is the part of Chinese fourth generation fighter programme which sent waves of worry in India.'" (India never bothered "worrying" at the J-10. We are obsessed with the LCA and Dhruv only).

It also says, '"The Indians used to say that Israeli input was visible on design while electronics and weapon technology had the mark of French assistance."' (India never said that).

Thus, the validity of the article is doubtful.

[Diving Falcon]

Thus, the validity of the article is doubtful.
The overall message of the article is quite valid because the news regarding J-10, RD-93, etc has all been settled by the PAF Air Chief and Pakistani Presidents; and that too in direct quotes.

[Wizard]

I think I read Jane's just put it out that Russia was still denying RD-93s to Pakistan and it had made that clear to China. So I think we have conflicting reports here.

[Diving Falcon]

I think I read Jane's just put it out that Russia was still denying RD-93s to Pakistan and it had made that clear to China. So I think we have conflicting reports here.
The PAF Air Chief said that the JF-17's engine is not a problem - although some suspicion does lie on Russia's intention to sell engines, the PAF officially said that engines were not a problem.

[MIGleader]

The news about the sale of J-10s to Pakistan by China was expected, as the J-10 was demonstrated to general Musharraf, when he visited China last month.The Chinese do not usually demonstrate their weapons to visitng dignitories.

But the news about the sale of weapons by Russia to Pakistan is suspicious, if not impossible. Russia has clearly denied the sale of RD-93 engines to Pakistan since the beginning of 2006. So the sudden proposals of helicopter sales and other hardware does not seem possible.

The situation is analogous to military co-operation between India and China.

I have said before that russia stands in a position to make a great deal of money(a single batch of 100 rd-93 costed 263 million)if Pakistan's fc-1's use the rd-93. As far as i know, the russians never lose out on a chance to make money, even if it involves decieving friends.

[DPRKUnderground]

***********************************

This thread has nothing to do with India so don't bring (or reply to others misconducts) the subject in here!

[SABRE]

NOTE:The thing I am about to tell you "should not be converted in to a ROUMER" ... i found out something interesting and decided to share. This is going in the official circle but it is not official.

The word is that Russia may allow Ukrain and China to sell Pakistan Su-30s.

Nothing more, nothing less....keep the above note in mind

[tphuang]

NOTE:The thing I am about to tell you "should not be converted in to a ROUMER" ... i found out something interesting and decided to share. This is going in the official circle but it is not official.

The word is that Russia may allow Ukrain and China to sell Pakistan Su-30s.

Nothing more, nothing less....keep the above note in mind
I have never heard of Ukrainian su-30s. I'm sure that if India was allowed to sell su-30k, China would be allowed to sell su-30mkk. But then again, why would PAF want to buy mkk?

[SABRE]

I have never heard of Ukrainian su-30s. I'm sure that if India was allowed to sell su-30k, China would be allowed to sell su-30mkk. But then again, why would PAF want to buy mkk?

China can sell MKK and Pakistan can later upgrade it with western avionics. If china sells Su-30 to Pakistan, India doesnt have much to scream abt. I think Ukrainians have 2nd hand Su-27, thats what they could sell to Pakistan but that seems unlikely. Why would PAF want Su-27?

[FreeAsia2000]

NOTE:The thing I am about to tell you "should not be converted in to a ROUMER" ... i found out something interesting and decided to share. This is going in the official circle but it is not official.

The word is that Russia may allow Ukrain and China to sell Pakistan Su-30s.

Nothing more, nothing less....keep the above note in mind

We'll see.

Personally I can't see pakistan wanting to buy russian planes because
of the cost both in training and because of the small numbers involved.

The su-30 IS an upgraded version of the su-27 who's main office was i believe based in ukraine

[Diving Falcon]

Russian aircraft are expensive to maintain - but cheap to buy. Anyways only time will tell...although I doubt PAF will purchase Su-27/30 if it wants F-16s.

[The_Zergling]

In my opinion, when considering costs you also have to factor in the availability of replacement parts. One reason why F-16s (and before that, F-4s) effectively proliferated widely around the globe was that it was easy to find spare parts, because there were many nations that had it.

On the other hand, the F-14 sale to Iran was realistically (or logistically) stupid. Nobody else in the region operated it, making technical issues very difficult. (The complex swing-wing didn't help matteres much)

So it's hard to say in the long run if X aircraft from X nations are more expensive to operate. It probably depends on what "allies" are using, and if there is interaction.

[Indianfighter]

China can sell MKK and Pakistan can later upgrade it with western avionics. If china sells Su-30 to Pakistan, India doesnt have much to scream abt.
No. there shall be objections to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041201-010047-7076r.htm

Thus, the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is unlikely.

[FreeAsia2000]

No. India will object to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041201-010047-7076r.htm

So the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is thus unlikely.


That's old news...at the moment it appears that russia is desperate to break
out of it's 'landlocked' position both in terms of it's ties with shall we say more
'islamically' oientated countries eg Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

Thus it's offered Pakistan a number of carrots

1. The steel deal which will be the largest russian steel deal with a foreign
company..obviously the Saudi partners are designed to prevent any
opposition from certain quarters in Pakistan

2. Russia has given the nod to Tajikistan's government to increase it's
relations with Pakistan in preparation for eventual oil pipelines etc
you know how sensitive relations have been between pakistan and
the tajik government mostly because pakistan backed the anti government
pro american opposition. see the article in world military matters

3. Russia proposes to be partner in gas pipeline

New Delhi: Russia is interested in becoming an active partner in the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline that will help India meet its energy needs to a great extent.

This was conveyed by Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Fradikov during his visit here, the country's Ambassador to India Vyacheslav I. Trubnikov said at a seminar on "Indo-Russian Relations in New Global Scenario" here On Tuesday. It was inaugurated by the former Prime Minister, I.K. Gujral.

Mr. Trubnikov said the excellent ties between the two countries could help further consolidate cooperation in the nuclear field. Russia had recently supplied 60 tonnes of low enriched uranium for the Tarapur nuclear plant. — UNI

http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/06/stories/2006040608110100.htm

See above. There is no reason for Pakistan to agree to the above if Russia maintains a cold war with Pakistan. Russia needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs Russia. The pipeline does NOT need a Russian route. The fact is that Russian energy companies want to get in on the act. Basically the western energy giants have lost out big time.

I suggest based on the above that strategic realities have changed. The Russians as ex-marxists know that the economic base limits the superstructure

[Diving Falcon]

No. India will object to it, and Russia is likely to agree, since it disturbs a strategic defence partnership between Russia and India.

The Russian defence minister Sergei Ivanov refused the re-export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan.

"The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system," the PTI quoted Ivanov as saying."

Source:
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041201-010047-7076r.htm

Thus, the sale of entire aircraft to Pakistan by Russia, is unlikely.
India can bark all it wants - but things will not go its way. Russia knows that dealing with China - especially on the issue of engines and support technology - is risky. Stop from receiving Chinese profit and you will never receive profit from that country again; China's industry is just too advanced for that stuff.

Besides, Russia should also know that there are other engines (ones that are better and cheaper to maintain) than RD-93. Nonetheless, I'm not worried about Russia's occasional barking because the end words of the Pakistan Air Chief are "engines are not a problem" or "China has given us assurances".

[Indianfighter]

Please note that Russia and Pakistan are 2 sovereign nations that recognize each other and are thus free to conduct trade and co-operate economically.

US, UN China or...ahem...India cannot stop Russia and Pakistan from trading.

All I said was that defence trading may not be possible, considering what the Russian Defence minister had to say.

[ArjunMk1]

Why this thread taking a turn to an India Bashing one ??? :confused:

[DPRKUnderground]

Pakistan had the choice to buy the entire Ukrainian fleet of Su-27s for a low price. But the maintenance costs would be enourmous! And they were used, so who knows how the Ukrainians maintained their planes. Global Security.org did say the Ukrainians have had a lot of trouble with their Air Force. Plus I wouldn't want to buy Russian aircraft while thousands of muslims are being killed in Chechnya.

[tphuang]

Why this thread taking a turn to an India Bashing one ??? :confused:
okay, you are right. Do not make India into the guilty party here. It's the Russian's decision whether they want to make export to Pakistan and jeopardize their relationship with India. Let's leave it as that. We will know if the re-export of RD-93 is allowed in a couple of years. This RD-93 issue has been argued to death, let's not continue with it again, okay?

[adeptitus]

We'll see.
Personally I can't see pakistan wanting to buy russian planes because
of the cost both in training and because of the small numbers involved.
The su-30 IS an upgraded version of the su-27 who's main office was i believe based in ukraine

Ukraine is not a major user of the Su-27 series aircraft. Their primary fighter is the MiG-29. Sukhoi has been a Russia company since its founding by Pavel Sukhoi in 1939, their main office is in Moscow and not Ukraine. The Su-30 was developed in 1996, and the Su-30MKI is co-developed between Russia, India, plus input from several other countries (e.g. IAI).

There's a proposal to merge Sukhoi with Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Irkut, Tupolev, and Yakolev into a single company, United Aircraft Corp.


In my opinion, when considering costs you also have to factor in the availability of replacement parts. One reason why F-16s (and before that, F-4s) effectively proliferated widely around the globe was that it was easy to find spare parts, because there were many nations that had it.

On the other hand, the F-14 sale to Iran was realistically (or logistically) stupid. Nobody else in the region operated it, making technical issues very difficult. (The complex swing-wing didn't help matteres much)

So it's hard to say in the long run if X aircraft from X nations are more expensive to operate. It probably depends on what "allies" are using, and if there is interaction.

Iran requested fighter aircraft from the US in early 1970's, and was offered a choice of F-14 & F-15. At the time the F-15A was equipped with the APG-63 radar, along with sidewinders and sparrows. The F-14A was equipped with the AN/AWG-9 and the AIM-54A Phoenix missile (as well as AIM-9 & AIM-7). I think the F-14 prolly looked more impressive, so the Iranians ordered 80 + 714 Phoenix missiles (284 delivered).

Comparred to the other AF in the region, perhaps with exception to Russians, the F-14A's would've made the Iranian AF the strongest in equipment. It was reported that Jan 1979, the Iranian AF test-fired a Phoenix missle and successfully hit a drone target at range of 212 km.

[SABRE]

Iran requested fighter aircraft from the US in early 1970's, and was offered a choice of F-14 & F-15. At the time the F-15A was equipped with the APG-63 radar, along with sidewinders and sparrows. The F-14A was equipped with the AN/AWG-9 and the AIM-54A Phoenix missile (as well as AIM-9 & AIM-7). I think the F-14 prolly looked more impressive, so the Iranians ordered 80 + 714 Phoenix missiles (284 delivered).

Comparred to the other AF in the region, perhaps with exception to Russians, the F-14A's would've made the Iranian AF the strongest in equipment. It was reported that Jan 1979, the Iranian AF test-fired a Phoenix missle and successfully hit a drone target at range of 212 km.

Sorry for being off-topic here mods ...

The reason US sold Iran F-14 was that 1st. Iran was number-1 allie in middle east, 2nd it was number-1 allie in Muslim world, 3rd Major oil supplier, 4th main front against Soviet Union and 5th & importent reason Russian MiG-25s were making high flights over Iran for spy purposes. When Iran conveyed its concerns to US, they were offered F-14s which were the only fighters which could go upto a hight where it could shoot down MiG-25. Infact according to many experts F-14 was built keeping in mind the max altitude of MiG-25s. Right after Iran inducted F-14s it shot down three Soviet MiG-25s. Although they bought 80 F-14s, their major interest was in F-16s which were yet to be exported to any country. The Shah ordered 200 F-16s but they were haulted by Americans after the revolution.

[darth sidious]

Sorry for being off-topic here mods ...

The reason US sold Iran F-14 was that 1st. Iran was number-1 allie in middle east, 2nd it was number-1 allie in Muslim world, 3rd Major oil supplier, 4th main front against Soviet Union and 5th & importent reason Russian MiG-25s were making high flights over Iran for spy purposes. When Iran conveyed its concerns to US, they were offered F-14s which were the only fighters which could go upto a hight where it could shoot down MiG-25. Infact according to many experts F-14 was built keeping in mind the max altitude of MiG-25s. Right after Iran inducted F-14s it shot down three Soviet MiG-25s. Although they bought 80 F-14s, their major interest was in F-16s which were yet to be exported to any country. The Shah ordered 200 F-16s but they were haulted by Americans after the revolution.

no Russian Mig-25 was shot down over Iran the ones they manage to shoot down was teh monkey version exported to iraq

the-16 order were actualy canceled by Iran after the islamic revoulation the actual aircraft were later deliverd to Israel and used to bombed teh Iraqui reactor

P.s F-14 is not that impressive at high altiude due to its weak engine they may not be any better then a Mig-25

the phoneix was design to shoot down heavy bombers like teh tu-22M dont except them to shoot down anything more agile

[SABRE]

no Russian Mig-25 was shot down over Iran the ones they manage to shoot down was teh monkey version exported to iraq

the-16 order were actualy canceled by Iran after the islamic revoulation the actual aircraft were later deliverd to Israel and used to bombed teh Iraqui reactor

P.s F-14 is not that impressive at high altiude due to its weak engine they may not be any better then a Mig-25

the phoneix was design to shoot down heavy bombers like teh tu-22M dont except them to shoot down anything more agile

Well may be we are here and there, but the point is clear. Iran was an allie in need of a fighter to counter Soviet high flyinn aircrafts and US sold them F-14s. Iranians than was richest oil producing country and had established one of the best airforces in the world and F-14s provided them a unique edge.

Sorry for being off topic.