the "artifical sun" made by china

[scott]

the "artifical sun"made by china had past it's first test.

recently the first equipment named "全超导托卡马克EAST"made by chinese scientist had finished the first engine test.http://fzwb.ynet.com/img.db?8184677+s(300)

[petty officer1]

Yes, I read about this a month ago on BBC... If this is accomplished, China would achive a major scentific development. :china:

[walter]

So is this a fusion reactor then?--that link is just a small pic of some industrial looking vessel. Is it a military program?

[MIGleader]

Looks like someones been watching too much spiderman2. How on earth is this machine supposed to contain the fusion reaction? Do they realize the result may develop it;s own gravity field?

[vincelee]

magnetic field. That's how they did it in the Tokamak.

[MIGleader]

I see...where did the Chinese get their tritium(or heavy water) then? Did they make it on their own?

[FuManChu]

So is this a fusion reactor then?--that link is just a small pic of some industrial looking vessel. Is it a military program?

So long as I don't have a crossed wire on what this is about, there's no way that China has got anything like a proper fusion reactor working. Perhaps they got a reaction by using more energy than it produced. But this is nothing new, because JET managed that years ago.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I see...where did the Chinese get their tritium(or heavy water) then? Did they make it on their own?

The same source they get thir tritium for their hydrogen bombs.

[darth sidious]

I see...where did the Chinese get their tritium(or heavy water) then? Did they make it on their own?

They got heavy water years ago a bi product of the mao era nuke program

[Gollevainen]

Ok, try to draw bit more words into your posts, this isent no chat room.

[darth sidious]

So long as I don't have a crossed wire on what this is about, there's no way that China has got anything like a proper fusion reactor working. Perhaps they got a reaction by using more energy than it produced. But this is nothing new, because JET managed that years ago.

this will put your doubt to rest

在真空和低温条件就位后，从3月13日到3月得离子体所的相关人员对纵场磁体和12个极向场磁体分别进行了 260 次通电测试。最长通电时间达到5000秒，最大电流达到8200安培，相对应的装置中心场强已达到2特斯拉 。总控系统、真空系统、低温系统、数据采集系统、水冷系统、电源系统、装置技术诊断系统、失超保护、真空磁 位形测量系统、超导传输线、高温超导电流引线、铜电流引线以及等离子体控制系统运行正常，保证了通电测试的 安全和成功。

they got more energy out of it then you think

[coolieno99]

The superheated plasma(millions of degree F) is confined by a magnetic field created by superconductive magnets. The superconductive magnets are cooled to cryogenic temperature(extremely cold).

[Aerodriver]

Sorry I just can not see this being true, maybe a small scale reaction that required more energy than it made. For China to have made this leap, if it was true would be Headline news. If it is they managed to make a min sun, great so have loads of other countries, if it was self sustaining.....hmmmm just can not see that to be true. You need to remember there is an international project involving The People's Republic of China, the European Union and Switzerland (represented by Euratom), India, Japan, the Republic of Korea, the Russian Federation, and the United States of America, under the auspices of the IAEA.

It is technically ready to start construction and the first plasma operation is expected in 2016, in France at a total cost of 10 bil Euro.
So to suddenly say China has done it all on its own...no way...your dreaming
.

[darth sidious]

Sorry I just can not see this being true, maybe a small scale reaction that required more energy than it made. For China to have made this leap, if it was true would be Headline news. If it is they managed to make a min sun, great so have loads of other countries, if it was self sustaining.....hmmmm just can not see that to be true. You need to remember there is an international project involving The People's Republic of China, the European Union and Switzerland (represented by Euratom), India, Japan, the Republic of Korea, the Russian Federation, and the United States of America, under the auspices of the IAEA.

It is technically ready to start construction and the first plasma operation is expected in 2016, in France at a total cost of 10 bil Euro.
So to suddenly say China has done it all on its own...no way...your dreaming
.

so acording to you china's most importent news paper is a lie !!!! please provide evidance

[Gollevainen]

is there any change that this info came out on 1st of April???

[FuManChu]

is there any change that this info came out on 1st of April???

One liner - one liner!! :D

Darth, I don't know that it is a question of lying, but Chinese newspapers have a habit of simplying publishing official reports without really investigating it themselves. It is possible that this reactor, or whatever, has performed a bit better than other ones set up so far. But if it was doing anything revolutionary, the lab owners would be filling patents world-wide and everyone would hear about it. The real development will come from the International project that China has got involved with. If that doesn't work, I doubt we'll get fusion working anytime in the foreseeable future.

[vincelee]

the translation is flawed, here is the official version:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/01/content_456224.htm

China to build thermonuclear fusion reactor
By Yu Zheng (Xinhua)
Updated: 2005-07-01 08:38


A leading Chinese plasma physicist said Thursday China might build its own thermonuclear experimental reactor, which would be expected to supply sustained electricity for the world's most populous country.

While building their own sophisticated devices in thermonuclear reaction, Chinese scientists have already participated in the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER), a testing step between today's plasma physics studies and tomorrow's electricity-producing fusion power plants.

The scientist, who has access to the ITER, said to Xinhua on condition of anominity, "The ultimate goal of the Chinese scientists is to build thermonuclear experimental reactors with their own efforts."

"International cooperative endeavors like the ITER make us keepabreast of the world's most advanced technologies," He said. "We're entitled to share all top-notch know-how once we enter the global consortium."

Using deuterium, which is in seawater, as fuel for reactions, a hydrogen plasma torus operating at over 100 million Celsius degrees will produce 500 megawatts of fusion power. The ITER, which means "the way" in Latin, is based on the idea.

All the commercialized nuclear reactors in the world were designed for fission, a process contrary to the ITER's fusion, and have to consume irrecycled mineral resources such as uranium and plutonium. Waste of fission reactors is radioactive while a fusionreaction is rather environment-friendly.

Chinese scientists started to develop a fusion operation torus four decades ago in mountains southwest of inland Sichuan Province.

In the late 1980s, the United States and Japan launched the ITER, which was joined by China in 2003. Among the six partners ofthe 10 billion-euro ambitious plan, the European Union will cover 50 percent of the total budget. The remaining five, the US, Japan,Russia, the Republic of Korea and China, will pay 10 percent each.

Since 2003, the Chinese team has mandated a batch of important missions. The ITER international coordinator, Japanese physicist Yasuo Shimomura said, "The work done by the Chinese is the most impressive."

The Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) Institute of Plasma Physics is developing an Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST), one prototype of the ITER.

The EAST, which costs 200 million yuan (24 million US dollars) and is scheduled for completion late this year, could operate at over 100 million Celcius degrees and produce electricity in a consecutive 1,000 seconds, which will be a world record.

"The EAST is the only prototype nearest to the ITER and will be unbeatable in at least one decade," an official with the CAS Bureau of Basic Research said.

After fierce diplomatic manoeuvers, the six partners agreed Tuesday in Moscow to construct the first ITER at Cadarache, near Aix-en-Provence, France, overriding Japan's competition for hosting the innovative reactor.

It is ready to start ITER construction and the first plasma operation might be in 2016. But the most optimistic estimation on first commercialization of ITER said it needs at least half a century.

After the deal was clinched in Moscow, Chinese Minister of Science and Technology Xu Guanhua said, "As China is short of energy, global research endeavors for energy supply solutions meetour strategic interest."

[Aerodriver]

Darth........I live in China, if there was any truth behind this I would have seen it because it would be all over the news. I have not seen it in any of the papers I read, and I have not seen it mentioned on CCTV. So if you want proof that it’s a lie.....the proof is simply because it is not all over the media in China and if it was true it would be. As much as you would like this story to be true, please take a small reality check this discovery would be equal to the moon landings, the first atomic bomb, discovering gravity etc etc. Putting the ball back in your court, can you prove it is true?

[Mr_C]

Darth........I live in China, if there was any truth behind this I would have seen it because it would be all over the news. I have not seen it in any of the papers I read, and I have not seen it mentioned on CCTV. So if you want proof that it’s a lie.....the proof is simply because it is not all over the media in China and if it was true it would be. As much as you would like this story to be true, please take a small reality check this discovery would be equal to the moon landings, the first atomic bomb, discovering gravity etc etc. Putting the ball back in your court, can you prove it is true?

I heard about this bit of news abt a month before April 1st, so therefore it would not be intended to be foolish suggest by a member earlier. Well i would not call this a lie just because it is not all over the news. Because most scientific research and breakthroughs will not make it into the news until the scientist can be completely sure that it works. And most scientist do talk alot of optimism at the first sign of a breakthrough, take "a cure for cancer" for example.
To assert that China came up with this all on its own is absurbed is also very incorrect because there is no such thing as developing anything by oneself. All technology and know-how are developed from previous knowledge learnt from everywhere.
In addition i heard that this new peice of Chinese technology was taken to England for testing along with the rest of international project. Thats why it was also mentioned in the BBC as mentioned by a member earlier. And regarding the question of patent...well it will be patent as long as it works reliably. And to preceive China as incapable of inventing new technology is a truly ignorant statement. Do not underestimate their capabilities.

[RedMercury]

Darth, from the bit of Chinese you quoted, it isn't clear whether the 8200 amp current is output from a fusion process or the current going through the magnetic coils. The rest of the text talks about testing the various subcomponents, so I think it is probably saying that the coils were tested successfully with 8200 amps. I recall reading elsewhere that the first experiments in "using" the device will be in July~August. And I think it is correct that if they actually did achieve higher output than input, it would be all over the news. As to the Chinese media lying about this, it's probably more of a translation issue or inaccuracy in reading Chinese.

[Wingman]

Pics

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/24/xinsrc_49202030615219212628518.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/24/xinsrc_4920203061521656894517.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/24/xinsrc_49202030615213901592116.jpghttp://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/24/xinsrc_49202030615211252053715.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/24/xinsrc_4820203061521843028114.jpg

http://www.ah.xinhuanet.com/news2005/2006-03/24/xin_28030324080171823831.jpg

[darth sidious]

Darth........I live in China, if there was any truth behind this I would have seen it because it would be all over the news. I have not seen it in any of the papers I read, and I have not seen it mentioned on CCTV. So if you want proof that it’s a lie.....the proof is simply because it is not all over the media in China and if it was true it would be. As much as you would like this story to be true, please take a small reality check this discovery would be equal to the moon landings, the first atomic bomb, discovering gravity etc etc. Putting the ball back in your court, can you prove it is true?


do you see news about J-10 in china? or DF-31 or 093 sub ?

can you prove the the people's daily is lying?

[Aerodriver]

For starters comparing the J-10 to a civilian project like the reactor is pretty pointless, one is a military program, hence they keep it secret, one is a civilian program that would prove China's technology is 20 years ahead of anyone else on the planet. It would solve Chinas energy needs in one quite swoop so it would be all over the news because it would be a huge coup for China to have done this. I still see news about the space program, pictures on bill boards, wax worked of the astronaughts in museums etc and making a real self sustaining "mini sun" would make the Chinese space program pale into insignificance. It would be everywhere; cheap, clean renewable energy and they would not put the news out in one newspaper. Sorry I just have to laugh at that. China has a team working as part of the ITER project (www.iter.org) it has to design and make the following components magnet conductor, correction coils, feeders and supports, blankets, remote handling transfer casks, gas injection system, electrical switchgear, some diagnostics. Which is according to the web site 10% of the total project. Each country does 10% with Europe doing 50%. I can no more prove it is a lie, more than you can prove its true. However, Darth, common sense should prevail and you should realize that all China has done is part of its work share for the international project. I don't want to sound too rude, but stop dreaming, wake up and smell the coffee.
and to Mr. C, I live in China, I can see how much some parts of the country is changing but in most things it is still behind western countries and it buys in a lot of technology (example the fastest train in the world in Shanghai, the space program, military weapon components etc) A self sustaining fusion reactor is the holly grail of physics at the moment, and I think a lot of guys are underestimating how important this discovery would be to the world, let alone to China on its own. To suddenly think it has jumped ahead of a major international project (that it is apart of) by twenty years I simply see as impossible. Anyway the next few months will tell because if it is true it will be everywhere the news if true, however I for one will not hold my breath.

I am not saying China is not catching up and I'm not saying it is not good a science (take a look at http://www.iter.org/index_newsroom.htm) for a very favorable report about Chinas involvement in the ITER.

[darth sidious]

For starters comparing the J-10 to a civilian project like the reactor is pretty pointless, one is a military program, hence they keep it secret, one is a civilian program that would prove China's technology is 20 years ahead of anyone else on the planet. It would solve Chinas energy needs in one quite swoop so it would be all over the news because it would be a huge coup for China to have done this. I still see news about the space program, pictures on bill boards, wax worked of the astronaughts in museums etc and making a real self sustaining "mini sun" would make the Chinese space program pale into insignificance. It would be everywhere; cheap, clean renewable energy and they would not put the news out in one newspaper. Sorry I just have to laugh at that. China has a team working as part of the ITER project (www.iter.org) it has to design and make the following components magnet conductor, correction coils, feeders and supports, blankets, remote handling transfer casks, gas injection system, electrical switchgear, some diagnostics. Which is according to the web site 10% of the total project. Each country does 10% with Europe doing 50%. I can no more prove it is a lie, more than you can prove its true. However, Darth, common sense should prevail and you should realize that all China has done is part of its work share for the international project. I don't want to sound too rude, but stop dreaming, wake up and smell the coffee.
and to Mr. C, I live in China, I can see how much some parts of the country is changing but in most things it is still behind western countries and it buys in a lot of technology (example the fastest train in the world in Shanghai, the space program, military weapon components etc) A self sustaining fusion reactor is the holly grail of physics at the moment, and I think a lot of guys are underestimating how important this discovery would be to the world, let alone to China on its own. To suddenly think it has jumped ahead of a major international project (that it is apart of) by twenty years I simply see as impossible. Anyway the next few months will tell because if it is true it will be everywhere the news if true, however I for one will not hold my breath.

I am not saying China is not catching up and I'm not saying it is not good a science (take a look at http://www.iter.org/index_newsroom.htm) for a very favorable report about Chinas involvement in the ITER.

I serious doubt your ability to read chinese !!!!!!

If you read the people's daily artical then you wil understand it never said all those thing your claiming

advamce research on DSI and HTR/new battries/lithium aluminum alloy goes on in china as we speak do you hear about them every day !!!!

Also if you have been living in china for ANY period of time you willnotice advance research are usuely hidden from news
e.g superconducters in the 80s
HTR in the 90s (revealed 5 years after the construction on the first reactor )
all computer/ nuclear program in the Mao era

P.S most of our nembers have lived in china or speak chinese mention your current location does not make you special

[Obcession]

Is it a breakthrough? I don't know, you don't know, he doesn't know, nobody knows. We'll just have to wait for more news to come out of it. And I agree with sidious, I've never heard of any major research projects in China when I did live there. I didn't even hear of the ShenZhou 4 until just a short while before the date of launch (a short while=1 or 2 month, if i remember correctly... that was such a long time ago).

The Chinese media tends to report on accomplishments, not on would-be accomplishments, because if it fails, it'll be very disappointing. Remember the SZ 5 launch, CCTV was ready to put on programs that show the past failures of other countries' space programs if SZ 5 proves to be unsuccessful.

[Vlad Plasmius]

No offense, but you're all goddamn retarded. There was no mention of actually creating a reaction. This referred strictly to an engine test. I'm sure if the user who started the topic was referring to the creation of a reaction he or she'd say so.

Here's some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAST

[darth sidious]

No offense, but you're all goddamn retarded. There was no mention of actually creating a reaction. This referred strictly to an engine test. I'm sure if the user who started the topic was referring to the creation of a reaction he or she'd say so.

Here's some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAST

how sad resorting to personal attack when all else fails:nono:

insted of resprting to ameture source such as wikipedia maybe reading the original chinese artical would help !!!:roll: :roll:

[Aerodriver]

Darth, that is exactly my point. YOU said what they had done was a fantastic achievement. I said it was simply part of the international project. FULL STOP. YOU over estimated what had been achieved, not me.
Out of interest I can read some Chinese, and what I don’t understand I will simply ask my tutor but what has that got to do with anything? Does it make you understanding of the physics involved and inparticular this program greater than mine? It may also supprise you that quite alot of laowei do learn Chinese, its not rocket science.....or should I say nuclear physics;)
The problem is you do not seem to grasp the magnitude of what you were claiming, the projects you just sited such as DSI and HTR/new batteries/lithium aluminum alloy are pin pricks in science, This project is huge, one of the biggest science projects ever.
If you live in ANY country advance research is hidden, China is not special, what is special about China is it control the news, so I was saying why would they only release what would have been the countries greatest modern achievement in only one news paper? What you said was not just a simple update on a science program, you said they had acheived it. BIG difference.
P.s. I did not say I was special, that is simply you choosing to read between the lines and come to a conclusion that is favorable to yourself, as you did with the initial article and your other posts on the topic. I simply stated that I live in China and there is no news regarding this (what would be) FANTASTIC news for the human race, hence I used that to back up my argument that what you first stated was incorrect. I think even you must agree you were simply wide of the mark with what you first posted. I am not attacking you, your views or anything to do with China, I am simply saying in this case you were incorrect with your initial post.

[darth sidious]

Darth, that is exactly my point. YOU said what they had done was a fantastic achievement. I said it was simply part of the international project. FULL STOP. YOU over estimated what had been achieved, not me.
Out of interest I can read some Chinese, and what I don’t understand I will simply ask my tutor but what has that got to do with anything? Does it make you understanding of the physics involved and inparticular this program greater than mine? It may also supprise you that quite alot of laowei do learn Chinese, its not rocket science.....or should I say nuclear physics;)
The problem is you do not seem to grasp the magnitude of what you were claiming, the projects you just sited such as DSI and HTR/new batteries/lithium aluminum alloy are pin pricks in science, This project is huge, one of the biggest science projects ever.
If you live in ANY country advance research is hidden, China is not special, what is special about China is it control the news, so I was saying why would they only release what would have been the countries greatest modern achievement in only one news paper? What you said was not just a simple update on a science program, you said they had acheived it. BIG difference.
P.s. I did not say I was special, that is simply you choosing to read between the lines and come to a conclusion that is favorable to yourself, as you did with the initial article and your other posts on the topic. I simply stated that I live in China and there is no news regarding this (what would be) FANTASTIC news for the human race, hence I used that to back up my argument that what you first stated was incorrect. I think even you must agree you were simply wide of the mark with what you first posted. I am not attacking you, your views or anything to do with China, I am simply saying in this case you were incorrect with your initial post.

do not hide from the truce !!!!

I merly suoppport what the central government saide in the theor news paper
you on the other hand claims the following

1.it can not be done as china is too "primitive" for its development
2. it will never work when the artical specificly said a 8200 amp current
is produced
3. the offical news agency is BSing and this does not exist

as for you chinese ability judging from you question itss preety clear you manage to understand about 1/15-1/20 of it

your hatred aginst the CCP midea is just bizarr, I find the news more relible then FOX especialy in international affaires

for your information understaning a questionis the forst step to sloving it

also trying looking up the previous history of chinese research it might help you understand it

you deliberatly used the fact that you live in china as some sort of magical counter as offical news release even when most of us have lived there for some time

I merly told you that your location =/= complete understanding on all things chinese

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs,

This is my first reply (and only my second post!) so please bear with me. I read that article off the website of the people's daily some time ago. The gist of it is that China has decided to run a parallel experimental tokamak program in addition to their participation in ITER (the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor at Cadarache, France).

It is not a working fusion power reactor, very far from it. The configuration, (that of the tokamak) is in fact Soviet in origin, designed by Andrei Sakharov and Igor Tamm (if I'm not mistaken). In this design the ionized gases (the plasma) serve as the secondary of a transformer and are heated by the induced currents. It has proven to be the most promising of thermonuclear designs (constrast this with the Western desings it replaced like the Stellarator).

Doubtless this experiment (as any well-designed experiment should), serves several purposes; first, it allows China to familiarize itself with the design, materials and construction of a thermonuclear reactor; second, it allows the study of plasma dynamics (a very complicated and difficult field) in the reactor environment; third, it introduces to China the use of Superconducting Maganets in the field coils and fourth, it provides independant validation of the designs, calculations and criteria established for ITER.

From the pictures, clearly it is at least an order of magnitude (around 10x) smaller than ITER, thus is a much more modest effort, but probably sufficient given China's existing financial and technological constraints. The lesson here is to walk before you run.

The "Artificial Sun" comparison is unfortunate and misleading as the sun itself operates on an entirely different principle. In it's core the sun fuses light hydrogen (protium) together to form helium via a complex catalyzed fusion reaction (i.e. via many nuclear intermediary reactions). This was first explained by Hans Bethe for which he won the Nobel prize.

Viewed as a fusion reactor the sun uses gravity to confine its plasma, that is not an option available to us. Also, the reaction takes place a extremely high pressures, another option not available to us (as the energy release would be like a bomb). Lastly the sun's thermonuclear reaction time is very long, and seems large due to vast quantity of material reacting.

The chief characteristics of modern thermonuclear reactors can be summarized as, magnetic confinement of the plasma, low plasma densities, long plasma confinement periods, and of course much higher plasma temperatures than in the sun.

As to the availability of heavy hydrogen, China has long been able to produce it. In fact it inadvertantly sold some to India, by mistake. It also has tritium production reactors like the ones the USA operates.

Lastly before I end my post, I would like to point out an interesting characteristic of the fusion reaction we are relying on... that in the D-D (deuterium-deuterium) and D-T (deuterium-tritium) reactions, most of the energy released (unlike that in a fission reactor) is in the incident neutron, (some 85%) and not in the fusion product itself. So to capture the energy, you must slow the neutron.

Best Regards

[Aerodriver]

Darth, I'm not even going to try and answer you questions, because to jump from what I wrote to the conclusions you just wrote is an even bigger leap than the technological leap you first implied had happened. My hatred against the CCP media.hahahahahaha - I implied nothing of the sort, again your just reading a conclusion that fits you mindset, and that goes for most of the other things you wrote in your reply. If you really want me to answer them, just read what I wrote before because my previous posts already have addressed your issues with this “artificial sun” and me. BUT read what I have wrote, not what YOU WANT to read. You’re stuck in some in some strange place where you came up with the conclusion you want to believe and will not be swayed from it. Frankly I'm happy for you to stay there, it’s mildly amusing. So go ahead come to what conclusion you want, write what you want, I wont reply because there is no point, Your already convinced I'm simply a China basher so there is no point in taking this any further and I hope you will also be man enough just to agree to disagree.

P.S. I 100% agree with you FOX is a waste of time....when did I say FOX was a beacon of truth to the world? Again your reading 1 + 1 but getting an answer of 5.

[darth sidious]

Darth, I'm not even going to try and answer you questions, because to jump from what I wrote to the conclusions you just wrote is an even bigger leap than the technological leap you first implied had happened. My hatred against the CCP media.hahahahahaha - I implied nothing of the sort, again your just reading a conclusion that fits you mindset, and that goes for most of the other things you wrote in your reply. If you really want me to answer them, just read what I wrote before because my previous posts already have addressed your issues with this “artificial sun” and me. BUT read what I have wrote, not what YOU WANT to read. You’re stuck in some in some strange place where you came up with the conclusion you want to believe and will not be swayed from it. Frankly I'm happy for you to stay there, it’s mildly amusing. So go ahead come to what conclusion you want, write what you want, I wont reply because there is no point, Your already convinced I'm simply a China basher so there is no point in taking this any further and I hope you will also be man enough just to agree to disagree.
P.S. I 100% agree with you FOX is a waste of time....when did I say FOX was a beacon of truth to the world? Again your reading 1 + 1 but getting an answer of 5.

sad resorting to personal attack is that all you got :nono: :rofl: :nono:

your the one that continously mention reading others mind set when you cant even read the artical!!!!!:roll:
the artical clearly answers all you questions yet you ignore then this inplies

A. you cant understand it ( although you calim to live in china)
B. a pathetic attempt by you to start flaming war

for your sake i hope A is true

EDIT this personal clash is off topic if you want to continue this pointless debeat use PM

[Aerodriver]

Darth, How about answer C...simply that I did not agree that china had created a self sustaining reaction and I posted my answer, which you did not agree with, fine that’s your choice. I think what you are saying about me and you conclusion about me are untrue. You think what I said about you and what you have posted is untrue. Nothing either of us can write will change our minds, now your even calling me a liar .So like I said in my last post lets just be adults and agree to disagree, and not waste more of each others time. Deal?

[The_Zergling]

I would have thought Duskylim's post would have clarified the legitimate parts of your arguments. The rest of it... I'll pass on it. Regardless of whether or not this is an 'attack' on the CCP's reliability or 'China's primacy', technical issues like this can be analyzed objectively without partisanship.

Aerodriver noted that it was unlikely that China had developed an fusion reactor, note that it was impossible. Perhaps his choice of words pissed you off, being a bit more patriotic than a guy like me, but the facts don't change; it is highly unlikely that this could have truly successfully happened without it being ALL over the news of the whole world.

Anyway, as of now I've been convinced by Duskylim's follow-up post regarding what this was actually about.

And I'll take another shot at Faux news. Seriously, even though the US media isn't doing all that well recently, Faux news IS the neocon spin machine.

[darth sidious]

I would have thought Duskylim's post would have clarified the legitimate parts of your arguments. The rest of it... I'll pass on it. Regardless of whether or not this is an 'attack' on the CCP's reliability or 'China's primacy', technical issues like this can be analyzed objectively without partisanship.

Aerodriver noted that it was unlikely that China had developed an fusion reactor, note that it was impossible. Perhaps his choice of words pissed you off, being a bit more patriotic than a guy like me, but the facts don't change; it is highly unlikely that this could have truly successfully happened without it being ALL over the news of the whole world.

Anyway, as of now I've been convinced by Duskylim's follow-up post regarding what this was actually about.

And I'll take another shot at Faux news. Seriously, even though the US media isn't doing all that well recently, Faux news IS the neocon spin machine.

well I NEVER claim china has a fusion reactor my original post was in response to FMC attempt at flaming war

PS.american news agency like fox or CNN sometimes are poor at reporting forgein news with accuracy is quality they arent much better then CCP media

[PiSigma]

I don't see how insulting each other is on topic, stop the personal attacks now and get back on topic, or else thread is closed

[Nethappy]

I lived in Hong Kong at the moment.. and have to travel to china for work frequently.

Well I am a Product Specialist for some Hi-tech anti corrosion solution (Intercept if any of ya hear about it b4.). So I always get to work with engineers from the hi tech sector, including the CCP.

Back to topic.
Well i was talking some goverment engineers yesterday from what they told me,
the news was suppose to be some kind of technology advancement, But not a fully operation reactor. They confirm me about there own, reactor project, and said they were hoping to have a finish product b4 the internation project.

For your infomation, all PLA new Type 99 tank part, will be using Intercept TM as they new anti corrosion storage medic. ^_^

[Mazepa]

I get the feeling that there is a strange attitude among westerners that they have a superiority when it comes to science. Why would not the Chinese be able to master new innovation before Europe and USA? For us to not realise that the innovative future is also in China is to close our eyes for the truth.

[Vlad Plasmius]

how sad resorting to personal attack when all else fails

That was my first comment on this topic. It was hardly a personal attack, either. It was very broad, not personal. It was also a reference to an Internet comic, just so you know.

insted of resprting to ameture source such as wikipedia maybe reading the original chinese artical would help !!!

Wikipedia is quite reliable. It also has links to several sites.

[MIGleader]

Dear Sirs,

This is my first reply (and only my second post!) so please bear with me. I read that article off the website of the people's daily some time ago. The gist of it is that China has decided to run a parallel experimental tokamak program in addition to their participation in ITER (the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor at Cadarache, France).

It is not a working fusion power reactor, very far from it. The configuration, (that of the tokamak) is in fact Soviet in origin, designed by Andrei Sakharov and Igor Tamm (if I'm not mistaken). In this design the ionized gases (the plasma) serve as the secondary of a transformer and are heated by the induced currents. It has proven to be the most promising of thermonuclear designs (constrast this with the Western desings it replaced like the Stellarator).

Doubtless this experiment (as any well-designed experiment should), serves several purposes; first, it allows China to familiarize itself with the design, materials and construction of a thermonuclear reactor; second, it allows the study of plasma dynamics (a very complicated and difficult field) in the reactor environment; third, it introduces to China the use of Superconducting Maganets in the field coils and fourth, it provides independant validation of the designs, calculations and criteria established for ITER.

From the pictures, clearly it is at least an order of magnitude (around 10x) smaller than ITER, thus is a much more modest effort, but probably sufficient given China's existing financial and technological constraints. The lesson here is to walk before you run.

The "Artificial Sun" comparison is unfortunate and misleading as the sun itself operates on an entirely different principle. In it's core the sun fuses light hydrogen (protium) together to form helium via a complex catalyzed fusion reaction (i.e. via many nuclear intermediary reactions). This was first explained by Hans Bethe for which he won the Nobel prize.

Viewed as a fusion reactor the sun uses gravity to confine its plasma, that is not an option available to us. Also, the reaction takes place a extremely high pressures, another option not available to us (as the energy release would be like a bomb). Lastly the sun's thermonuclear reaction time is very long, and seems large due to vast quantity of material reacting.

The chief characteristics of modern thermonuclear reactors can be summarized as, magnetic confinement of the plasma, low plasma densities, long plasma confinement periods, and of course much higher plasma temperatures than in the sun.

As to the availability of heavy hydrogen, China has long been able to produce it. In fact it inadvertantly sold some to India, by mistake. It also has tritium production reactors like the ones the USA operates.

Lastly before I end my post, I would like to point out an interesting characteristic of the fusion reaction we are relying on... that in the D-D (deuterium-deuterium) and D-T (deuterium-tritium) reactions, most of the energy released (unlike that in a fission reactor) is in the incident neutron, (some 85%) and not in the fusion product itself. So to capture the energy, you must slow the neutron
Hmm...finally someone who looks at it from a technilogical standpoint.
You seem to have at least a beyond basic education in this stuff


Im not really interested in fusion, but maybe Ill haul this article over to sino economy sometime for more disscusion in a more appropriate atmosphere.

any chance the military could use any of the plasma generated by this machine?

[Gaginang]

I get the feeling that there is a strange attitude among westerners that they have a superiority when it comes to science. Why would not the Chinese be able to master new innovation before Europe and USA? For us to not realise that the innovative future is also in China is to close our eyes for the truth.

May i also add that most of the innovations and inventions in this modern world come from china, until westerner progressed further then the chinese in the later 18 century. i don't see why the chinese can't continue on progressing more further then the rest of the world since they are now have the capacity to do so.

why not make china the POST modern society???

[Aerodriver]

Mig, there are no military application to this project, hence why there is such a diverse group of nations cooperating. How many other times will you see a Japanese team leader overseeing high tech Chinese research? It was originally conceived during the cold war, and one of the reasons was because has neither immediate commercial value nor defense implications; ITER was an ideal topic for east-west collaboration near the end of the cold war in 1985.
So really yes, this topic should be moved out of the military forum.

Guy's don’t get me wrong I was not saying Chinese science is bad, far from it. Yes in many things the "west" is still ahead of China, but this was not why I was saying China could not have made this break through. I was saying as technology stands NO country could have made this break through. Many scientists think that the ITER project will fail because the technology is not mature enough; some prominent physicists still think it is 50 years too soon.
I am sure China will take a leading role in technology over the next 100 years, 1/5 of the world population lives here, it makes sense that you should contribute 1/5 of the worlds economy and science, but it makes sense that the rest of the world should contribute the other 4/5th.Things are changing in China very fast, BUT in a lot of things although you are catching up China is still behind the west and conversely in some things it is ahead.

[Nethappy]

Well guy, why is only a technology breakthought seen as important.
An technology advance is just as important, is a process for the technology to mature.

The more new of advancement, mean the closer we have a reator working.

[walter]

any chance the military could use any of the plasma generated by this machine?

I'll take a stab at this and say 'no chance'. I don't think the plasma can be 'bottled up', moved around or used for anything outside the reactor.

So why is this still in the military discussion forum?

[Mazepa]

I wish the Chinese all the luck with their research. There is no doubt that we will soon be seeing them here in Stockholm to recieve Nobel-prices for their achievements.

[Nethappy]

I'll take a stab at this and say 'no chance'. I don't think the plasma can be 'bottled up', moved around or used for anything outside the reactor.

Yes I agree but, if they can use it in the reactor it more then enough. It already be a great achievement. But we still some time off till dat happen.

[Kampfwagen]

Nice post, Duskylim. It's clear you know more about this than most, so your contribution is much apreciated.

There is alot of infesiability to the whole artifical Sun process. The Sun is as big as it is because it requires alot of energy to function, along with the aformentioned gravitational and pressure problems as expressed by Dusky. The technical aspects of making an artifical sun are curently too far beyond what man can acomplish, be it a Russian, Chinese or American man (or woman!). Even if the technical aspects could be overcome, there is alot of risk involved in the project.

From what Dusky said, it looks like a run of the mill thermonuclear generator, lest I get something mistaken. That said, it is still a major acomplishment for the chinese.

Forgive me if I make a mistake, I dont know very much about Nuclear Physics, but this has inspired me to learn some more about it.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Um, have any of you actually look at the first post. It was never said that China created a fusion reaction, only passed an engine test. In fact, EAST is only an experimental platform not intended to produce plasma like that needed to acquire energy.

[Wingman]

It's good to see China developing this type of reactor. I hope they can get one working as soon as possible.

The earlier we abandon coal power the better. Those coal plants are generating lots of smog which is very bad for health plus every few weeks some Chinese coal miners get killed from mine blasts etc. it's a real shame

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs,

The point that must be stressed here is that all these experiments, are TEST and RESEARCH reactors, and NOT POWER reactors. That is, they do NOT produce useful amounts of power (thermal or electrical). That is the long term goal of all this endeavor. It is hoped that ITER will ultimately show the way towards a self-sustaining fusion reaction via the method of magnetic confinement.

Another method that has been explored (particularly by the Americans) is the so-called "inertial confinement". In this system deuterium and tritium are placed inside tiny glass spheres which are struck by powerful lasers (like the Scylla experiment). The sphere "implodes" violently (like a minature hydrogen bomb) and (hopefully!) fusion reactions occur.

Will this experiment lead to better nuclear weapons? Well what is being explored here is low-pressure plasma (ionized gas) fusion. In a multi-stage nuclear weapon, most of the material is in solid form and the reaction takes place at incredible pressures and densities. That is essential so that you get the most bang for the buck, and the most compact weapon possible. So the short answer is probably not, as there is very little in common (with the exception of the fusion reactions themselves) between the two devices.

For those who would like a primer on nuclear weapons, you should go the the High-Energy Weapons archive on the net.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Kampfwagen]

Um, have any of you actually look at the first post. It was never said that China created a fusion reaction, only passed an engine test. In fact, EAST is only an experimental platform not intended to produce plasma like that needed to acquire energy.

No reason to get snippy with me. I never one mentioned it being a fusion reaction generator. In fact, if you read my post I actualy place it in as a 'Run Of The Mill' Thermonuke Generator. Although I realize there is no such thing as a 'Run of the mill' Thermonuclear power device, it isint the fusion reaction system everyone is spazzing out about. I apologize if this was not directed towards me, and in that instance retract said argument.

And Dsuky, that is fairly obvious from the readings. But it does bring one thing to mind. How does one shut down and remove such a test reactor safely once the experements are complete? Do they just bury it like they used to do for the old Nuclear reactors in the U.S and Russia or do they do some other method?

[walter]

And Dsuky, that is fairly obvious from the readings. But it does bring one thing to mind. How does one shut down and remove such a test reactor safely once the experements are complete? Do they just bury it like they used to do for the old Nuclear reactors in the U.S and Russia or do they do some other method?

Why would they bury it if it is a fusion reactor? There shouldn't be radiaocative waste or contamination since water is the main byproduct, right? It's not the same as fission reactors that after 50 yrs. use are radioactive for thousands of years thereafter. I can see it just being dismantled and either have the materials scrapped, recycled, or reassembled in a museum.

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs,

As I mentioned before in my first post, the chief reactions are the D-D (deuterium - deuterium) and the D-T (deuterium-tritium) rxns. The end product of all these reactions is Helium-4 (or rather it's nucleus, which is also known as an alpha particle). Helium is a noble gas and is chemically inert. It is also non radioactive and has a stable nucleus. Thus we should not fear it as a source of radiation.

However, remember how I mentioned that most of the energy of the thermonuclear reaction is in the incident neutron (about 85 percent in fact)? Well the only way to recover the neutrons' energy (and therefore most of the power produced by the thermonuclear reactor) is by collision (in a fission, i.e. conventional, nuclear reactor one would call it moderation) with a nuclei; preferably a light nuclei. Collisions in which the neutron scatters without interacting are called elastic collisions, all others fall under the category of inelastic collisions.

Modern themonuclear reactor designs surround the core with a so-called blanket, which serves a number of purposes, namely to capture the energy of the neutron by a large number of collisions, and also to breed tritium fuel. Light nuclei are selected because they are the most effective in slowing down the neutron (moderation). Graphite is one of these typical materials. To breed tritium fuel the blanket also must have the element lithium in it.

The problem is that in many of these inelastic collisions (which involve neutron capture) an intermediate nucleus is formed, which is often radioactive. So to answer the question posited, thermonuclear reactors do produce radioactive by-products. Simply put, they and their materials will become a source of radiation.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[Aerodriver]

Yes but the by products, can be treated. The same amount of waste as a normal fission reactor will be produced. However it will be safe in a few hundred years, unlike the thousands due to fission. Also the is a kind of of cross over reactor that you surround a fusion reactor with waste from fission reactors and the waste from fission reactors can be broken down (I read 96% of radiation lost in approx 30 years) and it will produce a lot of heat of a waste product, hence energy. Again it’s experimental.
The reactor ITER is making will be mostly steal (the blanket), but in future new materials will become available and they will be less radio active at the end of the plants life.

[The_Zergling]

Kind of off topic, but is it possible to change the title of the thread? It's kinda misleading.

[Kampfwagen]

Why would they bury it if it is a fusion reactor? There shouldn't be radiaocative waste or contamination since water is the main byproduct, right? It's not the same as fission reactors that after 50 yrs. use are radioactive for thousands of years thereafter. I can see it just being dismantled and either have the materials scrapped, recycled, or reassembled in a museum.

*sigh* I was talking about the modern methods of dismantling a thermonuclear reactor under the assumption that the generator in question was a 'standard' thermonuclear reactor. Lest I misunderstand something in the translation (which is about 50-70% likely) that this is a Thermonuclear Reactor being used as a testing platform for the possibility of Fusion reactor and testing it's fesability. I realize that Fusion reaction produces water as a byproduct, but of course it makes sense that this water is inheritly radioactive, for however long a time that may be.

So my question still stands, un-ansewered. What exactly is the plan once the testing stops? It seems a little bit impractical to just leave this thing there for thirty-odd years untill it's safe to use it as a drinking fountan, dosent it?

And yeah, it is a little bit misleading and would likely aleviate some of the confusion if we changed it.

[jchu1988]

if china had managed to make a nuclear fusion reactor as u have manage to interpret, then it would to be kept underground as the helium produced will be radioactive, due to at the end it is still a nuclear reaction and will be induced radioactive.

Also, China has not told the world a lot of things, (remember the anti malarial drug back in the 60's), so they could have been secretly developing this technology without the West knowing.

If it was just an engine test or a platform of some sort then it just shows that China is catching up on technology.

托卡马克= tokamak

therefore it is a nuclear fusion reactor

[vincelee]

a question

fuel breeding aside, can water/steam or another inert gas be used? I recall that these are used in PWR/PHWR as the neutron moderator. The only instance, as far as I have seen, where graphit is used, is in the RBMK series (aka Chernobyl).

[jchu1988]

this is a fusion reaction, it fuses things together. if heavy water was used, it would just vapourise into D and O, which will cause the Ds to fuse and form He which provides a lot less energy.

I fink the reactors of Chernobyl were fission reactors (my nuclear knowledge only specialises in fusion, JET and ITER). The PHWR uses the heavy water as a moderator which reduces the need for enrichment.

[vincelee]

PHWR can use U-238 as fuel after a enriched mixture starts the reaction.

However, my question was regarding the prospect of using steam/water or an inert gas to act as the neutron absorber.

[jchu1988]

why have we completely gone off the "artifical sun" topic?

Wouldn't iron 56 be a better choice as it has the most stable nucleus?
(as i have sed before, my nuclear knowledge is mostly based on Fusion, JET, ITER).

[jchu1988]

[QUOTE=Kampfwagen I realize that Fusion reaction produces water as a byproduct,..[/QUOTE]

When did hydrogen fusing give u water?

It gives u helium. Think about it,

D + T = He + n

That is wat the world is trying to solve right now. I thinkl u have got it mixed with with a chemical reaction, the oxidation of Hydrogen which gives u water as the waste. Or u may be talking the long term fusion process, where He fuses with He and form C, N and O. But that is too far away from our technology yet.

[coolieno99]

Youtube video of China first successful thermonuclear detonation.
17 June 1967
Air drop, 2960 m
Yield: 3.3 Mt (megatons) roughly equal to 150 Hiroshima A-bombs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuX5xug9prk&mode=related&search=