Indian Army & Navy news thread

[Indianfighter]

Successful trial of Pinaka
BALASORE (ORISSA), MAR 28 (PTI)

'Pinaka', the multi-barrel rocket system, underwent two successful trials at the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PEE) at Chandipur-on-sea, about 15 km from here today.

The trials took place at 3.15 pm and 3.45 pm, defence sources said.

'Pinaka' is an area weapon system aimed at supplementing the existing artillery gun with a range beyond 30 km. Its quick reaction time and high rate of fire gives an edge to the Indian Army during low intensity war-like condition.

The unguided rocket system test-fired here could be used to neutralise a higher geographical area with its salvo of rockets, the sources said. Having a range of 39 km, 'Pinaka' can fire a salvo of 12 rockets within 44 seconds.

One salvo each (12 rockets) fired from a battery of six launchers can simultaneously neutralise a target area of 3.9 sq km.

Its capability of being fitted with a different type of war head can render it deadly for the enemy as it would destroy solid structures and bunkers.

Source:
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

-----------------------------------
DRDO develops remote-controlled explosive disposal robot
NEW DELHI, MAR 29(PTI)

Defence Research and Development Organisation(DRDO) has developed an indigenous remotely-operated counter-terrorist Robot vehicle, equipped with sensors, which detects and defuses buired mines and improvised explosive devices.

Fielding a six-axis maniuplator arms with a gripper for handling explosives, the Robot can operate over a range of 500 metres and can prove ideal for locating buried mines and improvised explosive devices used by millitants, DRDO officials said.

Powered by special battries which run for three hours without recharging, the Robots are also armed with multiple cameras and sensors, they said.

While, the Robot can pick up mines and IEDs from almost half a kilomtre away even when on the move, it can defuse explosives of upto 20kg .

"The robot is driven with the help of Master control station having operators with switches, joysticks and optional touch-screen interface for remote control and guidance", the scientists said adding these systems would be mounted on specially-designed Swaraj Mazda carrier Vehicles.

DRDO officials said the Robots, when equipped with Radiation measurement and automatic control units and portable gas chromantograph, could be used to carry out fight nuclear as well as biological containmination. The bomb disposal Robots have been developed by DRDO's Pune Based Research and Development establishment and already two engineered prototypes of the robots are under trials, officials said.

They said the Robots, on being inducted, would prove quite handy to forces battling naxals and would be mass produced for paramilitary forces and as well men of the Rashtriya Rifles.

At present, the armed forces as well as VVIP cavalcades are fielding imported remote sensors for mine and IED detection and for de-fusing them.

"The vehicles can be deployed in urban areas to detect explsoives in buildings and built up areas and also to defuse them", officials said.

The new system developed for handling IEDs uses portable x-ray device for detection and explosive-based water jet disrupter to defuse them.

For mine detection, the Robot uses mine detector in front of the vehicle equipped with scanners and sensors.

Source:
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

[Sea Dog]

"India's Navy Holding Maritime Patrol Aircraft Competition"

This article shows India truly has alot of options in building maritime air forces. This will be one to watch.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/03/indias-navy-holding-maritime-patrol-aircraft-competition/index.php

The competition and refurbishment efforts are being given greater impetus by international developments. IPT reports that warning bells have been sounded at an international summit over the mounting terrorist threats to sea lanes around Indonesia and the Straits of Malacca, which serves as a choke-point for a significant percentage of global shipping. At a recent high-level meeting in the United States that included Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan and others, a request was made for India to play a major policing role against sea-piracy in the region.

[WebMaster]

Indianfighter, please use and post ACTUAL URLS of the news stories... see the attachment for better understanding of what I mean.


Note to Mods: If you find any posts that have link of a site and then it shows ANOTHER website in frames in the same link, please delete without even giving a warning or discussing it. For example see the screenshot or this link (http://www.defencetalk.com/redirect.php?q=http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1763338,00.html) (yes, DT USE to do this until others caught up and then for some reason it was stopped)

[Indianfighter]

Indianfighter, please use and post ACTUAL URLS of the news stories... see the attachment for better understanding of what I mean
I will abide by this rule from now on.

India to offer military package to Maldives
Rajat Pandit
[ Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:22:50 pmTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NEW DELHI: As part of the overall strategy to provide military aid to Indian Ocean Region (IOR) countries, and prevent China from further spreading its influence in the region, India will hand over a small warship and other supplies to Maldives next month.

Defence minister Pranab Mukherjee will be travelling to Male in mid-April to "transfer" INS Tillanchang, a 260-tonne fast-attack craft commissioned in 2001, to Maldives.

The military package will also include Rs 6-crore for training, material and technical assistance. Moreover, an Indian Navy survey ship, INS Darshak, will conduct a hydrographic survey in the waters around Maldives.

INS Tillanchang, with a deployment range of 3,600-km, is designed for fast and covert operations against smugglers, gun-runners and terrorists. "Our country's central location within IOR makes us a major stake-holder in the security and stability of the region," said an officer.

India has taken several steps to build bridges with IOR nations, which range from joint patrols with Indonesian and Sri Lankan navies and exercises with Singapore and Oman to providing seaward security for international summits in Mozambique.

Maldives constitutes an important part of this strategy since China is making persistent moves in the region as part of its military diplomacy. China, in fact, plans to establish a full-fledged naval base in Marao, one of the islands of Maldives, by 2010.

Source:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1470095,curpg-1.cms

[Indianfighter]

CCS clears Army acquiring 20 Dhruv ALH
NEW DELHI, MAR 30 (PTI)

Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) tonight cleared the way for Army acquiring 20 indigenously-built Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) and approved procurement of seven radars for the Air Force.

............

The 20 ALH helicopters will be procured by the Army at a cost of Rs 955 crore.

The ALH copters, being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), are presently grounded for detailed flight examination after one of them crashed near Hyderabad recently.

The choppers are expected to be certified air-worthy soon with some rectifications carried out on them, officials said.

Signalling that the Defence Ministry intended to give a go-ahead to acquisition of more 130 MM guns upgraded to 155 MM calibre, the CCS approved procurement of special vehicles for the carriage of these weapon systems from Bangalore-based Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) at a cost of Rs 536 crore.

The Russian guns are being upgraded by the Israeli company Soltem.

Source:
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

[Indianfighter]

Indigenous warship INS Kolkata launched
MUMBAI, MAR 30 (PTI)

Aimed at adding a new dimension to the country's naval warfare, India today launched an indigenous warship with enhanced stealth features and land-attack capabilities.

Named INS Kolkata, the ship belongs to the destroyer class and is the first of three ships currently under construction at the Mazagon Dock here.

The warship, under the Project 15 Alpha, is scheduled to join the Navy in 2010.

"Project 15 A, although conceived as a follow-on of the earlier Delhi class, will have major advances in its weapons and sensors ad will be technologically far more superior," Mazagon Dock CMD Rear Admiral SKK Krishnan said.

Project 15-A ships are follow-on ships of the successful Project 15 destroyers including INS Delhi, INS Mysore and INS Mumbai, which forms the frontline combatants of the Indian Navy. Approved by the Union Government in May 2000, construction of the ship was started in March 2003, he said.

"Jointly with the Director General of Naval Design, we have made many changes in the design of the ship. Most importantly we are building this series in a fixed price contract," Krishnan said.

Propelled by four gas turbines, INS Kolkata is designed to achieve speed in excess of 30 knots/ph and to help coordinate a task force in exerting sea-control in a multi-threat environment.

The supersonic cruise missile BrahMos is expected to weaponise the ship.

Source:
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

Excerpts from the print edition of Times Of India, March 31,2006 :

Country's Largest Warship Launched
Times News Network

Displacement : 6,300 tonnes

Length : 163 metres

"'The warsip will have the capacity to carry 2 helicopters and most of the other equipment will also be indigenous as also the weapons. The weapons package will include the BrahMos surface-to-surface cruise missile, rocket launchers, torpedo tubes, launchers, SONARs, a warning system and the AK-60 guns.'"

"'Kolkata will be equipped with the "total atmospheric control system," a state-of-the-art combat action information organisation and auxillary control systems."

[MIGleader]

I will abide by this rule from now on.

India to offer military package to Maldives
Rajat Pandit
[ Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:22:50 pmTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

NEW DELHI: As part of the overall strategy to provide military aid to Indian Ocean Region (IOR) countries, and prevent China from further spreading its influence in the region, India will hand over a small warship and other supplies to Maldives next month.

Defence minister Pranab Mukherjee will be travelling to Male in mid-April to "transfer" INS Tillanchang, a 260-tonne fast-attack craft commissioned in 2001, to Maldives.

The military package will also include Rs 6-crore for training, material and technical assistance. Moreover, an Indian Navy survey ship, INS Darshak, will conduct a hydrographic survey in the waters around Maldives.

INS Tillanchang, with a deployment range of 3,600-km, is designed for fast and covert operations against smugglers, gun-runners and terrorists. "Our country's central location within IOR makes us a major stake-holder in the security and stability of the region," said an officer.

India has taken several steps to build bridges with IOR nations, which range from joint patrols with Indonesian and Sri Lankan navies and exercises with Singapore and Oman to providing seaward security for international summits in Mozambique.

Maldives constitutes an important part of this strategy since China is making persistent moves in the region as part of its military diplomacy. China, in fact, plans to establish a full-fledged naval base in Marao, one of the islands of Maldives, by 2010.

Source:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1470095,curpg-1.cms

Can you not read the rules?
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/announcement.php?f=6
Anything involving China and india in the same thread is temporarily forbidden. You can keep the post, just edit it.

[Sea Dog]

"US Invites Indian Officers To STRATCOM"

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_Invites_Indian_Officers_To_STRATCOM.html

The United States has invited India to appoint military officers to liaison posts in the U.S. Strategic Command, or STRATCOM, its largest and most critical defense set-up mandated to control strategic nuclear assets, space and missile defense and global deterrence against weapons of mass destruction

Having an Indian liaison officer on board will allow a more efficient link between Stratcom centers and India's relatively new Strategic Forces Command that controls Indian military nuclear assets

Shows much more strategic cooperation between India and the USA.

[Indianfighter]

Shows much more strategic cooperation between India and the USA.
The above statement is accurate. India is already a very important strategic ally of the US in Asia, similar to Japan and Australia. Thus, this invitation to India to be part of STRATCOM is a step in that direction.

US also has many bussiness interests in India, so it is imperative that India's nuclear command must co-operate with STRATCOM.

The following is more information on India's warship, INS Kolkata, which was launched a few days ago:

1] Armed with supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles, INS Kolkata is the largest and most lethal multi-role destroyer of the Indian Navy.

2] Though of the Delhi class, it has been modified extensively to add stealth.

3] The Kolkata has 16 BrahMos launchers — eight on each side.

4] The destroyer is likely to get long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM). The Mazagon Dock has not named the missile but indicated that it is being "co-developed" by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

5] Besides a multi-function radar system, the destroyer has the Humsa-NG hull mounted sonar and a Nagin active towed array sonar.

6] All sensors and weapons are integrated in a state-of-the-art system; the networking of the weapons and censors will enable the warship to combat multi-threats in different dimensions simultaneously.

7] INS Kolkata's sides are covered and rounded, making detection difficult. All missile launchers and bases of the superstructure are covered for the same reason.

Source:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/01/stories/2006040104971300.htm

[darth sidious]

The above statement is accurate. India is already a very important strategic ally of the US in Asia, similar to Japan and Australia. Thus, this invitation to India to be part of STRATCOM is a step in that direction.

US also has many bussiness interests in India, so it is imperative that India's nuclear command must co-operate with STRATCOM.

The following is more information on India's warship, INS Kolkata, which was launched a few days ago:

1] Armed with supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles, INS Kolkata is the largest and most lethal multi-role destroyer of the Indian Navy.

2] Though of the Delhi class, it has been modified extensively to add stealth.

3] The Kolkata has 16 BrahMos launchers — eight on each side.

4] The destroyer is likely to get long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM). The Mazagon Dock has not named the missile but indicated that it is being "co-developed" by the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

5] Besides a multi-function radar system, the destroyer has the Humsa-NG hull mounted sonar and a Nagin active towed array sonar.

6] All sensors and weapons are integrated in a state-of-the-art system; the networking of the weapons and censors will enable the warship to combat multi-threats in different dimensions simultaneously.

7] INS Kolkata's sides are covered and rounded, making detection difficult. All missile launchers and bases of the superstructure are covered for the same reason.

Source:
http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/01/stories/2006040104971300.htm

do you have a pic of the ship I am very intrested in what she looks like

[Indianfighter]

do you have a pic of the ship I am very intrested in what she looks like
I'm afraid I dont have it, because the news report is not available in the internet edition of the Times of India newspaper.

[darth sidious]

I'm afraid I dont have it, because the news report is not available in the internet edition of the Times of India newspaper.

well a delhi is about 5000 tones it must has
1 16*Brahmos
2 some sort of long range VLS defense missile similar to HQ-9or S-3000 ( note this reguires deep pentration of deck )
3 israeli point defense missile
4 533mmm asw torperdo
5 helo facility capable of operating sea king

on top of all this stealth so the boat would be a bit over loaded

[Gollevainen]

In no extence i dont believe the ship comes overloaded...Only little bit stronger armamament fit over P-17 class....thougth it would not likely have long range SAM, but VSL sthill if you believe the premilary scetches shown in public...But hardly anything more than typical load of modern desttroyer and lot less than for lets say in 052C...which is even smaller ship.

[vincelee]

052C is between 6-7000 tons.

[Indra]

well a delhi is about 5000 tones it must has
1 16*Brahmos
2 some sort of long range VLS defense missile similar to HQ-9or S-3000 ( note this reguires deep pentration of deck )
3 israeli point defense missile
4 533mmm asw torperdo
5 helo facility capable of operating sea king

on top of all this stealth so the boat would be a bit over loaded

Adelhi class DDG is 6700 tonnes normal load and 7000 tonnes full load,this new P15A is 6800 tonnes normal and 7800 tonnes full load.

P15-Delhi class
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Delhi.html

Apic of the launched P15A-Kolkata class AAW DDG..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/himanshu/6bfbcfcf.jpg

[Gollevainen]

052C is between 6-7000 tons.

Yeas, but it's hull is about 153 meters long. Now the P15A has 163 meter hull...you see the displacement comes from the stuff you load onboard, but the hull dimensions defines how much you can load...

[vincelee]

only 153m? Hmmmmmm. Well, isn't the ship wider?

[Gollevainen]

Acording to Weyer's Flottentaschenbuck, they both have the same beam ~17 meters...

[Indianfighter]

<deleted> Kindly see the next post.

[Indianfighter]

Mr. Sea Dog, the following are photos of INS Kolkata (scanned from the print edition):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/himanshu/6bfbcfcf.jpg
(courtesy of Himanshu, Bharat-Rakshak.com).

Comments from commodore Sudhir Patel, on the INS Kolkata, on Bharat-Rakshak forum

Kindly read all his posts.
The following is one of his comments:

"Simply put, the INS Kolkata is a stealth destroyer with no equal in Asia."

"and finally the "Super" Bhramos and Barak 2 missile systems - unparalleled in Asia and only matched by the United States Navy "

I request a technical discussion, without rude arguments or personal attacks.

[KYli]

Mr. Sea Dog, the following are photos of INS Kolkata (scanned from the print edition):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/himanshu/6bfbcfcf.jpg
(courtesy of Himanshu, Bharat-Rakshak.com).

Kindly read all his posts.
The following is one of his comments:

"Simply put, the INS Kolkata is a stealth destroyer with no equal in Asia."

"and finally the "Super" Bhramos and Barak 2 missile systems - unparalleled in Asia and only matched by the United States Navy "

I request a technical discussion, without rude arguments or personal attacks.
If you claim that the Bhramos and barak 2 missile systems is unmatch by others Asia Navy, you should explain and do comparison with details data available. Or you just come here declare what you think, then I don't see the point for debate. And Care to explain what is so superior about INS kolkata.

[darth sidious]

In no extence i dont believe the ship comes overloaded...Only little bit stronger armamament fit over P-17 class....thougth it would not likely have long range SAM, but VSL sthill if you believe the premilary scetches shown in public...But hardly anything more than typical load of modern desttroyer and lot less than for lets say in 052C...which is even smaller ship.

the 052c is about 7500/7700 tones

acording to the artical he posted it has longe range SAM sthill is medium at best

to recap it has this 1*ak100 gun 16* brahmos missiles ( note its much bigger then uran how are they going to fit it on anyways ) 30-48 VLS missile Barak sam adn AK-630 plus 533mm asw torperdo tube plus facility for a sea king !!!

the only ship I can think of with a similar density of weapons is the Taiwanese Geraing not even the most heavily armed russian ship has the kind of arrangement

Russian Sov ,American spurance/kidd , or they chinese 052 they dont have nearly as much weapons

this thing approach the level of Slava on arament but only has a hull the size of 051b :eek:

[MIGleader]

Im courious to know exactly how stealthy this destroyer will be, especially when all these Brahnos and Barak launchers are fitted on top of it.

"Simply put, the INS Kolkata is a stealth destroyer with no equal in Asia."

"and finally the "Super" Bhramos and Barak 2 missile systems - unparalleled in Asia and only matched by the United States Navy "

I really have to question the crediblity of that stement. One thing, the C41 on this destroyer certainly cannot be as advanced as the Japanese kongos, nor the south korean kdx-II/III(future). Besides, Barak 2 is not as advanced as the sm-2.

The way i see it, The weapons loadout of these ships are oriented towards surface strike mission of Soviet warships, with less attention given to sea-holding abilities.

[tphuang]

well, let's just make sure this doesn't turn into a bash India thread, okay, guys?

A couple of thoughts on P15A:
It's a ship that just got launched, still going through tests. It looks like a nice ship, but the performance of all the subsystems are unknown at this point, since they have been developed. The so called Barak 2 SAM is not developed or tested. The super Brahmos has not been developed either. So as of now, it's still going to be the good old Brahmos itself. Depending on who you ask, it is either an enhancement over exported Yakhont or not as good as Russian Yakhont. Let's wait until sub component development and the sea testing is done, then we can get an idea of the capability of this ship.

Also, it's not a valid explanation just by simply quoting an Indian officer. The Chinese AWACS developer also said that KJ-2000 is the most technologically advanced AWACS in the world. Does that make it so? No.

[vincelee]

we won't know until we see the ship outfitted. But 16 BrahMos in stealthy cannisters? Are they kept under the deck like on Peter the Great or ar they above deck in sloped housings? Because if they're above deck, you can have some problems. Same with all the radomes. Granted the radomes are constructed of dielectric material.

[darth sidious]

we won't know until we see the ship outfitted. But 16 BrahMos in stealthy cannisters? Are they kept under the deck like on Peter the Great or ar they above deck in sloped housings? Because if they're above deck, you can have some problems. Same with all the radomes. Granted the radomes are constructed of dielectric material.

I doubt there is enough room to have 16* brahmos in launch continers the delhi is built to house 8*moskit or 16* uran

the brahmos is much bigger then the uran kind of hard to replace it in a 1-1 bases

[jatt]

http://img102.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=87307_p15a.jpg
P-15A has 16 VLS Barhmos and will possibly have the Barak 2 SAM being developed with Israel. The thing is the Barak 2 is already far ahead than expected. Its range will be 90 km and more than 120 km when another booster is added. This is to combat the PAF P-3s. As normal the super torpedoes. It will likily not have the Ak-630 guns but likily the Khastan CIWS and or Barak 1. And just so people can tell its Indian it'll have the signiture 2 helecopter bays.

[Indianfighter]

to recap it has this 1*ak100 gun 16* brahmos missiles ( note its much bigger then uran how are they going to fit it on anyways ) 30-48 VLS missile Barak sam adn AK-630 plus 533mm asw torperdo tube plus facility for a sea king !!!

not even the most heavily armed russian ship has the kind of arrangement

Russian Sov ,American spurance/kidd , or they chinese 052 they dont have nearly as much weapons

this thing approach the level of Slava on arament but only has a hull the size of 051b :eek:
I do not have much knowledge about destroyers, but the above statement if true, is indeed very good for the Indian navy.
I apologize to darth sidious, because I reffered to him as member SeaDog, because I thought SeaDog asked me to post the photos of the INS Kolkata.

The super Brahmos has not been developed either. So as of now, it's still going to be the good old Brahmos itself. Depending on who you ask, it is either an enhancement over exported Yakhont or not as good as Russian Yakhont.
The above statement is inaccurate, because the Brahmos has many improvements over the Yakhont missile. The Yakhont has a more basic guidance system that comprises INS and terminal homing for guidance, whereas the Brahmos uses GPS, a more sophisticated INS,also includes Infrared homing and highly advanced Electronic countermeasures that are not present in the Yakhont, besides the capability of engaging land-based targets also.

"'The Indian Navy (IN) is to induct the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile into operational service. Efforts are now underway to integrate the BrahMos navigation and guidance systems with high-speed data links that will be able to receive course-correction and terminal guidance cues from the navy's Heron II unmanned aerial vehicles and maritime patrol /ASW aircraft launched from shore-based air bases and equipped with SAR payloads, as well as from the ship-borne Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter. Currently, as part of on-going efforts to achieve a fair degree of proficiency in network-centric warfare, three project 15-class DDGs, three Project 1135.6-class guided missile frigates and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat are equipped with high-speed data links through which tactical control of the INS Israel Aircraft Industries /MALAT-built Searcher Mk2 and Heron II UAVs is exercised while at sea for real-time maritime reconnaissance.'"

Source has to be searched from the bottom of the following page :
http://www.ipcs.org/Military_news.jsp?action=showView&keyWords=NAVY

"'The seeker uses a hybrid form of pulse compression, in which bursts of short pulses are phase-coded so that they can be compressed; the bursts can also be Furier-transformed to discriminate chaff clouds. This particular pulse compression technique was adopted to hold down peak power, so making ESM detection difficult.'"

Source:
http://www.*************.com/specifications/missiles/48

The above mentioned capabilities of a continous datalink, and advanced ECM are not reported to be present in the Yakhont.

"'The army version would have features like position updating, terrain-hugging, homing image analysis and higher degree of data processing.'"

Source:
http://www.ipcs.org/Military_news.jsp?action=showView&keyWords=NAVY

Image-homing analysis, position updating and much higher degree of data processing are features that are absent in the Yakhont.
Thus, the similarity between the Brahmos and the Yakhont is quickly tending to only the propulsion system, whereas they are increasingly being distinct in the sophistication of the guidance.

[vincelee]

in the scope of the debate, the LACM version of BrahMos should not be discussed; it's AShM vs AshM. The reason is that the Russians have no need to develop one more LACM while the Indians need more standoff weapons.

Now, regarding BrahMos vs Yakhont, it is true that BrahMos has a more sophisticated electronics package, but again, IndianFighter, you post technical information that is not valid for the debate.

""'The Indian Navy (IN) is to induct the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile into operational service. Efforts are now underway to integrate the BrahMos navigation and guidance systems with high-speed data links that will be able to receive course-correction and terminal guidance cues from the navy's Heron II unmanned aerial vehicles and maritime patrol /ASW aircraft launched from shore-based air bases and equipped with SAR payloads, as well as from the ship-borne Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter. Currently, as part of on-going efforts to achieve a fair degree of proficiency in network-centric warfare, three project 15-class DDGs, three Project 1135.6-class guided missile frigates and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat are equipped with high-speed data links through which tactical control of the INS Israel Aircraft Industries /MALAT-built Searcher Mk2 and Heron II UAVs is exercised while at sea for real-time maritime reconnaissance.'""

what high speed data link? You can't go around saying "high speed" without some sort of hard technical facts.

""'The seeker uses a hybrid form of pulse compression, in which bursts of short pulses are phase-coded so that they can be compressed; the bursts can also be Furier-transformed to discriminate chaff clouds. This particular pulse compression technique was adopted to hold down peak power, so making ESM detection difficult.'""

yeah, alone with every other terminal seeker after the 60s. Fourier transform is not hard, you learn it in your second year in College of Engineering. It's just using a finite amount of trig functions to describe ANY waveform. From this you can do a F-transform to find the descrepencies in signal strength.

"The above mentioned capabilities of a continous datalink, and advanced ECM are not reported to be present in the Yakhont."

IndianFighter, I'm not sure where you learned debate, but double checking your facts should come naturally to any normal human.

This is from Bharat Rakshak itself, since you apparently don't trust anything not Indian.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html

The missile's designers assume, that the enemy would detect the launch of the missile at the distance of 300 km and take measures to destroy it. However, being resistant to jamming, having the flight velocity of 750 m/s and making complex maneuvers during flight, the Yakhont ASCM shall anyway reach the target. It is not the high speed or jamming protection that makes Yakhont an advanced weapon system. It's major advantage, not too much advertised by NPO Mashinostroyeniya representatives, is the guidance system which has accumulated all the NPO experience in developing electronic systems of AI (Artificial Intelligence) enabling to fight against single warships (one missile - one ship) or even against a group of warships (a flock against a group).

this is one of the primary aspects of ECM.

Oh, and INS using the present target location method requires contineous data link, a "high speed" one at that.

[tphuang]

between brahmos and Yakhont, the same software upgrades that were put on Brahmos could be put on Yakhont. As for guidance system, the Russians had this thing called Glonass that it could use to guide all of its missiles. And also, the Russians themselves probably use a far longer ranged version of Yakhont than the export ones, because it can't export missiles with ranges of more than 300 KM under MTCR.

Anyhow, read this post by Gary, he seems to know what he is talking about here.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3092

Anyhow, that's all I'm going to post on this issue.

[ArjunMk1]

Thanks for the Photo buddy

[ArjunMk1]

Another Pic :
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/P15a.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/P15b.jpg
so its going to have VLS for Brahmos too , which is not present in currently operational Delhi(Type 15) class !!!


details : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Kolkata.html

[Indianfighter]

between brahmos and Yakhont, the same software upgrades that were put on Brahmos could be put on Yakhont.
The above statement is alright, but the reality is that those are not upgrades, but rather a quantum jump from the earlier rudimentary guidance of the Yakhont (except for the AI), and also that ALL those changes were developed by India.

Hence, it must be reasoned by members as to why did Russia not sell the Yakhont to India directly, but entered into a 49.5:50.5 risk-sharing partnership in developing the Yakhont to a true cruise missile; development which continues today.

Thus, Yakhont is a subset of Brahmos. In my previous post, I only highlighted the complementary parts.

Artificial Intelligence in Brahmos:
http://www.indiadefence.com/brahmospunch.htm
The article is old, and work on image-homing has already begun.

The article mentions that the air-launched variant shall be guided by low-earth Kondur satelites. The land-based and ship-launched versions shall be guided by UAVs, which shall continously update the on-cruise Brahmos missile about the co-ordinates of the target in motion. This requires a continous datalink between the UAV/chopper and the Brahmos.

And also, the Russians themselves probably use a far longer ranged version of Yakhont than the export ones, because it can't export missiles with ranges of more than 300 KM under MTCR.
The range of Yakhont is 300 kms only. No version exists with range > 300kms. Russia deliberately and exclusively made the Yakhont within MTCR limits to export it to foreign countries.
Gary was incorrect about the range of Yakhont.

[darth sidious]

The above statement is alright, but the reality is that those are not upgrades, but rather a quantum jump from the earlier rudimentary guidance of the Yakhont (except for the AI), and also that ALL those changes were developed by India.

Hence, it must be reasoned by members as to why did Russia not sell the Yakhont to India directly, but entered into a 49.5:50.5 risk-sharing partnership in developing the Yakhont to a true cruise missile; development which continues today.

Thus, Yakhont is a subset of Brahmos. In my previous post, I only highlighted the complementary parts.

Artificial Intelligence in Brahmos:
http://www.indiadefence.com/brahmospunch.htm
The article is old, and work on image-homing has already begun.

The article mentions that the air-launched variant shall be guided by low-earth Kondur satelites. The land-based and ship-launched versions shall be guided by UAVs, which shall continously update the on-cruise Brahmos missile about the co-ordinates of the target in motion. This requires a continous datalink between the UAV/chopper and the Brahmos.


The range of Yakhont is 300 kms only. No version exists with range > 300kms. Russia deliberately and exclusively made the Yakhont within MTCR limits to export it to foreign countries.
Gary was incorrect about the range of Yakhont.

no the yakhont was design to replace the moskit as the missile of choice for destroyers basicaly same perfomance on a smaller missile

the 300km is more by chance then design as demonstrated by the improved moskit the yaknot as be easily upgraded for more range

[vincelee]

The above statement is alright, but the reality is that those are not upgrades, but rather a quantum jump from the earlier rudimentary guidance of the Yakhont (except for the AI), and also that ALL those changes were developed by India.



Rudimentary? I think I've already pointed out to you that INS guidance based on current target position principle requires a contineous data link feed. I would like you to point out just how the BrahMos' guidance system is so much better than Yakhont's, and let's not mention upgrades in the works. Let me tell you just how "rudimentary" SS-X-26's guidance is. Regardless of the launch profile, the missile enteres below the radar horizon, it then pop up above the horizon in terminal stage and sends a compressed pulse to determine the exact position of the enemy. It dives down again, calculate the descrepencies, and enter terminal stage. When sufficiently close, it turns on the seeker and attacks. This is the SAME approach BrahMos uses to acquire targets.

As for AI, it is the single most important aspect of ECM/ECCM because this is what drives the missile's actions. For example, Fourier Transform is done by the AI. Target selection in cluttered environment is also done by the AI. Missile evasion, if not preprogrammed like the Moskit, is also done by the AI.

I think it's time for you to go back to Barat Rakshak and ask them the exact differences between the Yakhont and the BrahMos.

As for why Russia entered into a joint development plan with India, it's called politics. Why did Russia invite India into their PAF-FA program? Do you think Indians can actually make a 5th generation fighter?

[Indianfighter]

Brahmos and Yakhont share the same AI. The Yakhont is a fire-and-forget missile, and there is no communication whatsover from any entity to the missile after launch, (not even for INS).
INS is an onboard processor that corrects a missile's path depending upon speed, relative target position and position of launch, and wind conditions also. In vaccuum, an INS will guide the missile as a projectile to the target.

What Yakhont, Moskit and Sunburn lack are :

1] Satellite guidance like GPS/GLONASS in conjunction with INS.

2] UAV datalink (used for updating position on a moving target).
Note : The AI developed for Yakhont/Brahmos is useful for slow-moving ships only (it involves guess-work and pattern analysis). It will be useless against a fast-moving frigate, or a fast land vehicle.

3] Image homing analysis (similar to DSMAC used in Tomahawk).

4] Possible fast laser-ignition (development is a closely guarded secret).

5] Capability to engage land-based targets. This requires a highly sophisticated guidance system, since the missile cannot follow the pattern of sea-skimming and terminal pop-up on land contours like hills.

[vincelee]

let me ask you this, how the hell are you supposed to use a 300km missile without datalink when your OTH radar (bandstand) can only see out to roughly 200km? You can't just toss a missile on an approximate vector and hope it locks, because the missile's seeker is not powerful enough. Sure it's an option, but not the best one. Every long range missile has a datalink capability. C-803 has it, Harpoon has it, Exocet's longer ranged versions have it, Sunburn has it, Bazalt/Vulcan have it (before autonomous search).

Just because the missile has a fire and forget capability doesn't mean it doesn't use datalink. On the contrary, fire and forget applies ONLY to the terminal stage. All ARH missiles are considered fire and forget, and guess what? All of them use datalink to get into the killzone.

Also, INS using the present target location must be updated with the target's new position contineously. Do you honestly believe a target would just remain it's speed and heading under combat situations? However, I do have to concede that, because of the speed of the BrahMos, it can cover the maximum 300km rather quickly. But I have to iterate again that fire and forget does not mean an entirely autonomous flight.

I cannot find any reference about Yakhont's datalink, for or against, so I'll just shelf this debate and perhaps you can go ask people at BR and I'll ask someone at CDF. But you cannot discount my arguments.

On a sidenote, the Alfa missile, which is based on the Yakhont, does have datalink capabilities plus GLONASS.

"What Yakhont, Moskit and Sunburn lack are :

1] Satellite guidance like GPS/GLONASS in conjunction with INS.

2] UAV datalink (used for updating position on a moving target).
Note : The AI developed for Yakhont/Brahmos is useful for slow-moving ships only (it involves guess-work and pattern analysis). It will be useless against a fast-moving frigate, or a fast land vehicle.

3] Image homing analysis (similar to DSMAC used in Tomahawk).

4] Possible fast laser-ignition (development is a closely guarded secret).

5] Capability to engage land-based targets. This requires a highly sophisticated guidance system, since the missile cannot follow the pattern of sea-skimming and terminal pop-up on land contours like hills."

IndianFighter, Moskit IS the Sunburn, Sunburn being the NATO designation.

1) First of all, I question GPS/GLONASS in an antiship missile, especially GPS, because the signal is probably not miitary grade. But it is true that BrahMos has it and the other two don't.

2) Let's not mention UAV, that's trivial. The datalink issue with Yakhont can't be decided, but Moskit actually has datalink. Why? Because it is not an autonomous system. Not many people know this, but one of the primary drawbacks of the Moskit is that it does not carry enough processing power onboard for terminal stage target discrimination, so it sends the data BACK to the ship for calculations. The 2 side effects of this is that A) Datalink capability is inherent in Moskit B) there is a primitive image analysis capability, not on the missile, but in the system, although this is actually radar return discrimination instead of true visual data.

3) I thought image analysis is still in the pipelines. But regardless, what BrahMos achieves using image analysis, Yakhont achieves uses the AI while Moskit just sends it back to the ship. (The notion of Yakhont's AI being effective against slow moving targets is really taken out of context, just what major warvessels travel above 60 Knots? ) However, Moskit, in this context, is especially suspectible to enemy ECM. Once an Australian Navy Officer, when asked how they'll deal with the Moskit, said, "Softkill all the way". (I suspect that the image analysis capability is tailored toward the land attack version of the BrahMos)

4) I'm not sure what that means. Laser fuse for detonantion or laser "spark plug" for ignition? Because they're trivial.

5) I question the abilities of a Mach3 missile acting as a LACM. Of the advanced LACMs in service today, their primary mode of guidance is TERCOM with GPS corrections. Do you honestly think a Mach3 missile can use TERCOM?

[Indianfighter]

Photo of Harrier jet taking off from INS Virat, during the Indo-French naval exercises that are being held now:

http://www.zeenews.com/images/fighterplanetakingofffromviraat-280x225_news.jpg

AI is useful only when the cluster of ships have not mixed with friendly ships and have not moved zig-zag or too far apart from where they were when the missile was fired. Though technologically very complex, mathematically it is a primitive solution to a problem that is now fully solved with UAV guidance, low-earth observable satellite guidance, etc.....all of them with/coming soon on the Brahmos, and little or none with the other ramjet anti-ship missiles.

Anyway, Brahmos also possesses AI inherited/improved from the Yakhont in case the need arises.

INS does NOT need a datalink. It is a modern-day gyroscope or compass inside chips. If the target has moved since the missile was launched, the missile will miss it, unless some AI or UAV guidance or satellite guidance is used to update the missile.

INS is rarely accurate, since wind conditions can hamper its performance. So, GPS/GLONASS is also used in conjuncton. It helps in correcting accumulated errors from time-to-time.

Even the Babar missile uses GPS in conjunction with INS and not just INS alone.

Brahmos will never use TERCON. TERCON was invented at a time when GPS did not exist. It is nothing but an altimeter that compares contours that it "sees" with another in memory, and takes corrective measures when they dont match.
GPS/GLONASS makes this system obsolete, as pin-point accuracy can be achieved on course. Later versions of Tomahawk such as Tactical Tomahawk or Tomahawk IV do not have TERCON.

A land-based ramjet missile like the Brahmos cannot perform terminal pop-up, sea-skimming etc. as it does over the flat sea.
So, more advanced guidance shall be needed to dodge obstacles, remain low on radar(terrain-hugging as far as possible), and obtain pin-point accuracy (such as targetting the 4th window on the 3rd floor of a building).....something that Yakhont or Moskit cannot achieve at least forseeably.

The Brahmos is set to (or mostly has) achieve all that. Without the restraints of its MTCR range limit, it would undoubtedly be THE deadliest cruise-missile in the world.

Laser detonation is useful for extremely fast "ignition" that reduces reaction time, unlike conventional ignition techniques.

[vincelee]

IndianFighter, you should see by now why you have always been abused by me, because you HAVE NO ******* IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND PRETEND THAT YOU DO.

I found you a source giving you an idea of how complex Yahkont's autonomous guidance is. You give me nothing. I have offered an explaination of why datalink is needed on an OTH weapon system. You give me nothing but uneducated rambling about BrahMos. I now give you evidence that TERCOM, not TERCON, as you so gleefully spell it, is present on Tactical Tomahawks, and you probably will give me nothing except more IndianFighter's trademark *******.

GIVE ME A DEFINITIVE SOURCE, NOT MORE PSEUDO TECHNICAL **********************************

Tactical Tomahawk uses TERCOM

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bgm-109-specs.htm

"Guidance System: Block II TLAM-A – INS, TERCOM
Block III TLAM-C, D & Block IV TLAM-E – INS, TERCOM, DSMAC, and GPS"

note, tactical tomahawk is BLK IV, BLK V is a new production method


TERCOM is not just a simple radio alt-meter, it's a downward looking SAR doing real time image comparison with a preloaded route image. Next time you mention something as primitive, look at yourself first.

[Gollevainen]

All Indian related topics closed for uncertain period. New threads are allowed to start only when the annoucment "temporary forbidden topics" is gone...