Abrams Q&A "with a dash of other stuff"

[utelore]

please feel free to post questions about the Abrams and even other MBT/AFV stuff......cheers ute.

[MIGleader]

Is it true that you can mission kill an M-1 by hitting on the side with an rpg-29 or 125mm main gun?

[BrotherofSnake]

Will the Abrams be refitted with L55's anytime soon?

[Sea Dog]

Will the Abrams be refitted with L55's anytime soon?

I heard they were looking at upgrading to a new gun. The L-55 would be a pretty good improvement. Right now, M1A2 with the newer IVIS and systems upgraded to M1A2SEP gives it significant capabilities past the Challenger II or Leopard 2A5. I'm not sure about the A6 configuration however.

Is it true that you can mission kill an M-1 by hitting on the side with an rpg-29 or 125mm main gun?

Not likely. RPG's haven't been very effective against M1 tanks. They have been known to damage tracks however. They've even damaged it's armor. But then again, any tank is susceptible to that type of damage. I've heard reports from the desert that some insurgents have been firing upwards of 20 or more RPG's at M1's and they have survived and continued to fight even though damaged.

[utelore]

depends on the type of warhead. The RUAG made tandem warhead fitted to the RPG-7 has played hell with U.S armour.

dont wont to get to specific on just were to mission kill a abrams or just which part of the side aspect is the best place to hit with RPG-7 but yes it can and has been done more than once.

[Gollevainen]

I have two bit wider questions, hope you can help me on these.

First, What is the structure (order of battle) of main US tank formation (division or brigade) and the general placement of tanks in US army usits. In which kind of divisions are they fielded, what kind of support units (artillery mainly) those have? Also i would like to know the battalion and company level odred of battle.

Secoond, What kind of tactics does US army use their tanks? If i recall correctly, you were in the Gulf war? Could you tell about how you division moved, what objectives it (or smaller units like battalion) recived and how did they execute them? If this information is classifield, then perhaps you could tell about these things in theoretical bases?

If i'm being too unspesific in my questions, please say so and I try to reprhase them...

Thanks in advance...

[utelore]

Sure Goll , no problem.
First a U.S tank platoon=4 tanks company=14 from there units tend to become more modular to fit the specific mission or tasking order. During the Gulf war we had a full Bat of 58 tanks. The First Cav Div had well over 300 tanks and close to 300 brads. I can tell you the size of the first cav was stunning. I have nor will ever see anything like to again. You being a arty man would have marveled at seeing the full Div Arty blow its wad against R-guard units. Over 100 155 and dozens of MRLS firing over head was sheer thunder and lighting man.

As for tactics…..too funny …we departed our phase line and were told that everything to the front was enemy, SMOKE‘EM…ROGER THAT, WHITE 1…and that’s what we did we did everything to our front we killed. Most of the time we would stop at about 3000 to 4000 meters and just take shots at everything that showed hot on our thermals.

[Gollevainen]

Thanks...

So how many infantry units (battalions) there where in 1st Cavalry Div?

[utelore]

my brigade "Iron Horse" at the time had 2 tank bats and 1 inf bat. one of the other brigades I think it was the "gray wolf" had 2 inf bats and 1 tank bat. the other brigade was set up just like mine. so 4 inf bats and 5 tnk bats total in 1st cav. but there was also a cav squadron with HQ that had a couple of inf companys and a tank company...cheers ute

[Gollevainen]

What sort of artillery units did the brigades have? And how about the divisional level artillery??

[utelore]

each brigade has 1 arty bat. there was also a forth brig that contained an attack helo bat, transport bat and a bat of air assault inf.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND....the current orbat is now all modular. I have even heard of tank bats with just 42 big boys instead of 58. the classic Div setup that was written in stone is GONE. things are now set up for the tasking order or mission at hand.

Arty bats are now being transformed into COIN units in Iraq. Hell even the 2-8 cav at one point gave up its tanks to become a COIN unit. much of what used to be a arty fire mission is given way to that attack Helo, AC-130 or fast mover.

[MIGleader]

Cany any weapon short of a nuke or MOAB kill an M-1A2 from the front?

[utelore]

sure, your hellfire missile can do the trick. saw that first hand on a M1A1 to the frontal aspect loaders side. I heard of a Maverick hitting a M1A1 and melting it down like butter.

[crazyinsane105]

Cany any weapon short of a nuke or MOAB kill an M-1A2 from the front?

Probably the DU rounds fired from the A-10 Warthog can also take it out. The HJ-9 MIGHT be able to, but I am not too sure about that since we haven't seen it in action.

[Finn McCool]

What kind of technology (i.e. GPS, targeting systems, rangefinders, basically any computers) is there in the Abrams. Is it comparable to the Stryker? I doubt it is.

[EternalVigil]

A hellfire II missile can destroy any known armor on the planet.

[Kampfwagen]

I have some questions. Pardon if some sound n00bish.

1. I have heard (from this site) of an M1 during the first Gulf War (if that is the apropriate terminology) that was MK'ed (Mission Killed) when a BMP-2's 30MM cannon hit the battery system from the side. Is this possible?

2. Although I imagine this could be answered by someone else here, does the M1 Abrams have any Cannon-Fired AT missles? (not sure what the correct term is)

3. I was once told that in one instance the Optics of an M1 were damaged by a 30MM cannon. What else can damage the optics of an M1, how 'fragile' are they and are there any plans to improve possibile survivability of the optics?

[utelore]

Kampfwagen

1.yes
2.in dev yes. present use no
3.simple/avoid being hit in your optic box by 30mm rounds. I think .50 and up can take out the armour around the optics. A hammer to the sites will kill the TIS/main gunner site.

[MIGleader]

Can a Kornet kill an m1? Bastion? Krasnopol? All a good variety of russian ATM's and ATGM's.

[Kampfwagen]

Kampfwagen
3.simple/avoid being hit in your optic box by 30mm rounds. I think .50 and up can take out the armour around the optics. A hammer to the sites will kill the TIS/main gunner site.

Sounds easier said than done. Is there any way to go around the busted sighting or is the tank unusable untill then?

[utelore]

you just go to a secondary site located almost coax with the main gun. its a manual site so it kind of sucks at longer ranges.

[vincelee]

Probably the DU rounds fired from the A-10 Warthog can also take it out. The HJ-9 MIGHT be able to, but I am not too sure about that since we haven't seen it in action.

DU rounds from the A-10 CANNOT penetrate the frontal turret armor of the M1A1, much less the M1A2.

A-10's ammo mix up is 1 tracer/HE followed by 2 APDS-DU I think. Anyway, the APDS-DU from the GAU-8 is rated at roughly 250mm RHA at 1000M (off top of my head), so that's not gonna penetrate. The standard tactics of the A-10 in CAS role is to fire at the top of OPFOR armor, not the front.

however, I think the new French round, which is rated at 1000+mm, can actually penetrate.

[utelore]

penetrate what????...cheese. I would put my life savings on that no FRENCH 30mm round could defeat the front aspect of a M1A1"heavy common"....just funnin I like the French and love their food and lust for their woman.....cheers ute

[vincelee]

French 125mm........

[MIGleader]

The french dont use 125mm's, they use 120's. The French 120mm OFL120F2 DU has a penetration of about 650mm. The m1A2's armor has 960mm front against KE and 1600 against CE. Clearly, the french round wont pass. The most powerful tank gun, the l55, only has 810mm penetration.

[MadMax]

That penetration on the L55 is probably with the long rod tungsten round. with a DU round it might be capable of penetrating the frontal amor but i doubt the Leopard 2A6 and M1A2 will be fighting it out anytime soon
onto my question i heard they are developing a new gas turbin engine for the abrams to replace the out of production one curently in use does anyone know the progress on this engine?

[vincelee]

sorry, it's 120.

GIAT does manufacture a 120mm round that is said to be rated at greater than 1000mm at 1km. I'm still looking for the data, but it's a bit hard to find.

[utelore]

I can say that about 15 years ago tests were done against the frontal ballistic skirts vs. 150mm naval deck guns.....why? I am not sure...however the deck guns were unable to defeat the heavy skirts of the abrams.

with Dorchester , chobham and various DU upgrades I am not sure if firepower or Armour has the vantage. BUT you have to ask even if the armour is not defeated WILL the crew withstand the impact. I can tell you I saw a T-62 pop a abrams with a 115mm HE....Crew was not killed but it sure did ring their bell and they were unable to return fire. A Bradley then killed the T-62 with 25mm fire.

[ahho]

in disabling the tank or Mission Kill it in a head to head engagement, wouldn't it be wiser to aim the turret than the frontal armour???? I know this isn't a t-72, but wouldn't the damage cause the turret to malfnction which is enough to disable it??

[Vytautas]

How long can a crew stay in a m1 without exiting it.In example is there a food/water supply inside the tank?

[utelore]

I am not sure, never tried it for more than a few hours during gas alerts over in the big sand box. most of are food is stored in the bus-racks on the back of the turret. We had large cooler a grill and boxes of MRE and 20gal of water.

[Totoro]

20 gal of water for four people, i'd guess it's safe to assume one could, if needed, stay inside for something like 3 weeks. Not that you'd have the strength to pick up the gun round by then but hey, you can't have it all. :D

[utelore]

The water is stored on the outside of the tank. Thre is not that much room for a great deal of food and water on the inside. I would keep 2 canteens inside the tank most of the time and maybe a MRE or two for myself. Again most of the food stuffs is stored on the outside.