new toy for chinese snipers

[monitor]

China has developed several types of rifles for her snipers. China traditionally pay much attention on the accurately fires among her muskteers as the poor logistics support in the history of PLA, although the situation has been changed greatly. meanwile, considering about the huge impacts of snipers in the modern warfare such as wars in golf, chechen and kosovo , china's military man invested more on the improvement of their infantries.

references:

http://bbs.military.china.com/jsp/pub/controler.do?event=VIEWMESSAGE&year=2006&month=3&forumid=1011&threadid=1979830&page=0

[MrClean]

Hmm, looks... strange. But it does appear to have a heavier accurized barrel, and an adjustable stock, both of which are necessary on a good sniper rifle. The scope looks to be somewhere around a 2.5/3-10/14x magnification, and I'm just guessing because I don't know Chinese, and those are normal magnification types for these kinds of sniper rifles. It also looks like it's a heavy caliber, possibly a PLA 12.7mm? For anti-material and long-range sniping?

Can anyone else provide any more info as to the performance and or specifications of this rifle? Preferably in English:o

[monitor]

Hmm, looks... strange. But it does appear to have a heavier accurized barrel, and an adjustable stock, both of which are necessary on a good sniper rifle. The scope looks to be somewhere around a 2.5/3-10/14x magnification, and I'm just guessing because I don't know Chinese, and those are normal magnification types for these kinds of sniper rifles. It also looks like it's a heavy caliber, possibly a PLA 12.7mm? For anti-material and long-range sniping?

Can anyone else provide any more info as to the performance and or specifications of this rifle? Preferably in English:o

the sniper rifle in the qicture is called JS 7.62mm sniper rifle. the mission of the rifle is to destroy the humaning targets and light armor targets among 800metres.
the scope is from 3-9x magnification, caliber is 7.62mm using type53 standard bullet (or so called type 53 machine gun bullet) comparing with type 53 rifle bullet or so called type 53 machine gun bullet.
it is said that the accuracy of JS7.62mm is better than type 88 sniper rifle that has been equipped.

[Kampfwagen]

the sniper rifle in the qicture is called JS 7.62mm sniper rifle. the mission of the rifle is to destroy the humaning targets and light armor targets among 800metres.
the scope is from 3-9x magnification, caliber is 7.62mm using type53 standard bullet (or so called type 53 machine gun bullet) comparing with type 53 rifle bullet or so called type 53 machine gun bullet.
it is said that the accuracy of JS7.62mm is better than type 88 sniper rifle that has been equipped.

I imagine that it is because the rifle is not the same sort of Snipers Rifle the Type 88 is. This is a dedicated Sniper's Platform Rifle, like the American M24 Rifle or British L96 rifle, designed for a sniper that remains stationary. The Type 88 is a Designated Marksman's rifle, which is like the Dragonuv or PSG1, a rifle for a Sniper on the move with a platoon or one that will be moving around alot in general.

This is a good thing and something not entirely unexpected. China has lacked a dedicated sniping platform for awhile now. Though this might just be a prototype, I cant really understand the situation since I cant read Chinese or whatever it is....

[chicket9]

Chinese arms development has indeed been in evolution since the 1990s.

We are seeing modern submachine guns, grenade launchers and now larger calibre sniper rifles.

THere are already two 12.7mm weapons and one 7.62mm one developed or at prototype atleast. Latest I heard was that one of the 12.7s were adopted for PAP service (strange however that a police service needs something so powerful), yet I'd expect PLA SOPs to adopt this weapon in the future.

I think the lessons of the Barret and other effective weapons has put some shudders into PLA's spine, as well as impressing PLA planners. Thus we are seeing more dedicated sharp shooters and their weapons.

It is also as some already mentioned, a good way to enter the export market. China has offered so many good products to compete with the international market, from Type 90II MBT and wheeled armoured vehicles to all sorts of small arms that perform similarly to Western designs. BUt not all these export designs were adopted for PLA use.

[Nethappy]

Well it not suprising the PAP adopted 12.7mm as it a good weapon for the dangerous bomb dispose job went all other option fail. The HKP Bomb squad has a few 12.7 too.

Anyway, 12.7 sinper rifle nice idea. I believe the Chinese arms development have the capability developing a capble 12.7 sinper rifle but most important can they delovop the delicate 12.7 sinping round for ANTI-MATERIAL and other mission.

[Chengdu J-10]

Hello all i'm a new member:)

Question, does the PLA or PAP possess a true dedicated sniper rifle?
When i mean true dedicated sniper rifle, i mean a non-semi-automatic sniper rifle that is extremely accurate for special purposes (hostage situations) where the QBU-88 or the Dragonuv aren't accurate enough due to their semi-automatic configuration.:D A rifle such as the USA's M24 bolt action sniper rifle

[hallo84]

Hello all i'm a new member:)

Question, does the PLA or PAP possess a true dedicated sniper rifle?
When i mean true dedicated sniper rifle, i mean a non-semi-automatic sniper rifle that is extremely accurate for special purposes (hostage situations) where the QBU-88 or the Dragonuv aren't accurate enough due to their semi-automatic configuration.:D A rifle such as the USA's M24 bolt action sniper rifle


Yeah sometimes the sig 2000.

[Chengdu J-10]

Doesn't the PLA have a new 12.7mm sniper rifle? i think its called the M99 or something 99

Yeah sometimes the sig 2000.
Isn't that rifle a bit to big and heavey for the PAP for hostage rescue where your sniper rifle must be manuevered fast?

[isthvan]

Isn't that rifle a bit to big and heavey for the PAP for hostage rescue where your sniper rifle must be manuevered fast?


Mate it is not too big or too heavy and sniper rifle doesn’t have to be maneuverable because you will not storm building whit sniper rifle. Sniper rifle is used to provide cover for team that is entering building…

[Chengdu J-10]

Mate it is not too big or too heavy and sniper rifle doesn’t have to be maneuverable because you will not storm building whit sniper rifle. Sniper rifle is used to provide cover for team that is entering building…
Obviously you wouldn't storm the building with a sniper rifle. How dumb do you think iam? I was saying that shouldn't the PAP have something that is more compacted and less bulky in sniper rifle terms? There are many sniper rifles which are smaller and lighter yet at the same time the give the same accuracy and punch. Weight does matter in some scenarios. If you were required to run up 20 stories in crucial time with a heavey sniper rifle or a light sniper rifle obviously you would go faster carrying a lighter one. But this is in the smallest of scenarios.

[RedMercury]

PAP and swat units can procure whatever domestic or foreign weapons they can get its hands on. They are not limited by the logistical inertia and need for conformity that the army is. So they'll get whatever fits their needs...

[isthvan]

Obviously you wouldn't storm the building with a sniper rifle. How dumb do you think iam? I was saying that shouldn't the PAP have something that is more compacted and less bulky in sniper rifle terms? There are many sniper rifles which are smaller and lighter yet at the same time the give the same accuracy and punch. Weight does matter in some scenarios. If you were required to run up 20 stories in crucial time with a heavey sniper rifle or a light sniper rifle obviously you would go faster carrying a lighter one. But this is in the smallest of scenarios.

Mate I really don't think you are dumb but that you simple don't understand differences between law enforcement and military requirements for sniper rifle...

Weight,dimensions, rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario. Only thing that matters is how accurate rifle is and nothing else...
You see while for military there is no difference between wounded or dead enemy, no deference between head shoot or torso shoot in hostage situation you may find your self in situation where you need to score hit in particular part of the body(for example head, or hand holding the gun) because if you don't hit thing that you are aiming for there is 100% chance that hostages will be killed...

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...

[wanderingmind]

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...

The Barrett company might disagree with you, sir! The semi-automatic anti-materiel weapon currently used by U.S. forces snipers is the one that provided the accuracy for the alleged "world-record" kill at thousands of meters. And, by the way, they are experimenting with a 25mm version that is still man-portable and will not cause lasting physical damage to the shooter! The ability of the semi-auto to return to battery quickly, with less punishment to the shooter, has made it the current weapon of choice for the real long-range killers.

And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the accurized, semi-automatic M-14 rifle has suddenly become a hot issue item in the two current U.S. conflict zones? The people from the "units that don't exist" have made the determination that for 400-1200 meter shots (most sniper engagements), the so-called designated marksman weapon just doesn't have the killpower needed. The DMW just gives the better shots in a squad a somewhat more accurized weapon in an engagement, until the pair of M-14 equipped people can arrive from the platoon level. Again, the faster cycling of the M-14, its moderately-reduced kick and jump, its increased range and killing power

The part that puzzles me still is: We're spending tons of money for Picatinny rails and improved sights and such for our infantry squads. Yet, we still don't insist on adding a week to basic training strictly dedicated to marksmanship. Back in my competitive shooting days, I still remember shooting against - and losing to - one helluva deadeye Marine company clerk!
:D

[isthvan]

If we are talking about 12.7mm anti material rifles like Barret XM500 then I don't see problem if they are semi auto versions. Those guns are made for engaging targets like trucks, parked aircrafts,radar cabins etc. They are also great for engaging targets like enemy snipers or personal in the cover behind cars etc. But they were never designed like dedicated anti personnel weapons and thanks to characteristics of 12.7mm ammo I would newer use them in hostage situation...

As for M-14, AR-10s and SR-25 they are issued to troops as designated marksmanship rifles to provide aimed fire at longer ranges in target rich urban environment... They are great rifles, whit more then sufficient accuracy for there intended role but I don't see Marines replacing there M40s whit any of them...

They simple don't have level of accuracy needed for LE and you can see that bolt action rifles like Remington model 700 Police/M40/24/ Steyr SSG 69/Mauser 86SR are weapons of choice for LE work(whit rare exception of few high quality semi autos like PSG-1)... We are talking about situations were you,for example, need to shoot terrorist in right eye from 300m but you don't wont to blow head of the hostage in the process... And while 300m looks like small range it is not easy to achieve level of accuracy needed for LE using military issue weapon(M40 and counterparts excluded)...

As for weight hostage situation is typical LE situation and weight is simple not the issue. You are not in military operation traveling 40 km on foot whit 40kg of gear and 180+ rounds of speer ammo...

[Chengdu J-10]

Mate I really don't think you are dumb but that you simple don't understand differences between law enforcement and military requirements for sniper rifle...

Weight,dimensions, rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario. Only thing that matters is how accurate rifle is and nothing else...
You see while for military there is no difference between wounded or dead enemy, no deference between head shoot or torso shoot in hostage situation you may find your self in situation where you need to score hit in particular part of the body(for example head, or hand holding the gun) because if you don't hit thing that you are aiming for there is 100% chance that hostages will be killed...

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...
I understand and KNOW the difference between law enforcement and military sniper rifles. One thing you have missed is that military sniper rifles are designed for harsh environments were the rifle will be abused and yet must still perform a near constant accuracy and reliability. While law enforcement on the other hand you won't be in such harsh conditions as the military. This is due to that law enforcements are mostly in urban environments. The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

[isthvan]

I understand and KNOW the difference between law enforcement and military sniper rifles. One thing you have missed is that military sniper rifles are designed for harsh environments were the rifle will be abused and yet must still perform a near constant accuracy and reliability. While law enforcement on the other hand you won't be in such harsh conditions as the military. This is due to that law enforcements are mostly in urban environments. The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

Mate we are running in circles here... So lets go on your original question regarding SiG2000:

Isn't that rifle a bit to big and heavey for the PAP for hostage rescue where your sniper rifle must be manuevered fast?

Weight,dimensions and rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario.Only thing that matters is extreme accuracy and stability of results in any weather conditions....

Now since the majority of LE or CT scenarios require precision shooting at the distances of 100-300m and we are talking about high level accuracy of ~0.3-0.6MOA (MOA being Minute Of Angle) which means that at 550m rifle should place 5 bullets inside 50mm diameter... You joust cant achieve that kind of accuracy whit semi auto...
Also in that kind of scenario most engagements require joust few shots per scenario - sometimes only one shot...


The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

Chengdu like I said type88, like any other designated marksman rifles, is great in here role but simple not suited for hostage rescue scenario... That rifle was designed to extend reach of aimed fire for troops in combat environment and for that use she is perfectly suited. In such scenario fast target acquisition and high rate of fire are advantage but in hostage rescue situation there are simple not important... What is important is ability to hit the particular part of the body and to do it whit one single shoot and that is all there is to it...

[RedMercury]

Sorry to derail. But measuring grouping size by how many shots must land in a certain radius circle is clearly unscientific way to measure. It should be a proportion of shots that land in a circle, and the total number of trials should be quite large. Then you have a statistically sound way of measuring. The distribution should be roughly normal and so you can easily estimate the standard deviation from the proportion that lands within a radius. In other words, should use CEP instead of * inch groups.

[wanderingmind]

Isthvan: Your continued contention on the inherent inaccuracy of semi-auto sniper rifles bothered me, so I just instant-messaged a couple of Army sniper team platoon leaders - one in Iraq, the other in Afghanistan - from another forum I'm in. Their unified response: Both teams are using the M-21 (accurized M-14 with synthetic stock) as their primary. Both teams have returned their bolt actions to inventory, as they are getting better accuracy from the M-21. As one put it, "The 124 Hajjis we've put down in the past six months don't care whether we used a bolt-action or a semi-auto. They're still dead." He himself has a 900-yard kill with the M-21.

[Chengdu J-10]

Mate we are running in circles here... So lets go on your original question regarding SiG2000:



Weight,dimensions and rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario.Only thing that matters is extreme accuracy and stability of results in any weather conditions....

Now since the majority of LE or CT scenarios require precision shooting at the distances of 100-300m and we are talking about high level accuracy of ~0.3-0.6MOA (MOA being Minute Of Angle) which means that at 550m rifle should place 5 bullets inside 50mm diameter... You joust cant achieve that kind of accuracy whit semi auto...
Also in that kind of scenario most engagements require joust few shots per scenario - sometimes only one shot...




Chengdu like I said type88, like any other designated marksman rifles, is great in here role but simple not suited for hostage rescue scenario... That rifle was designed to extend reach of aimed fire for troops in combat environment and for that use she is perfectly suited. In such scenario fast target acquisition and high rate of fire are advantage but in hostage rescue situation there are simple not important... What is important is ability to hit the particular part of the body and to do it whit one single shoot and that is all there is to it...
Yep i know weight,dimensions and rate of fire we had already discussed this earlier so we can move on now. The Type 88 everbody nows wasn't designed for the PAP but for the PLA most people know that. The Type 88 sniper rifle wasn't built for extreme accuracy for hostage situation. (We all know that to) The Type 88 was mean't to be designed as a designated marksmen for a rifle to be fired for BVR of normal assault rifles. So i and all of us know all these alright. Good thats cleared up. What is really bothering me is it seems that you don't like the Type 88 or semi auto sniper rifles. (maybe i'm wrong about this) But if your using the Type 88 in combat environments (not hostage situations) and are in the PLA it doesn't matter if you are going to get hit in the leg or torso, your screwed. (exceptions for the head, getting hit in the head lights out) So the rifle is for faster rate of fire to either kill or wound soldiers putting them out of action. The Type 88 is still an accurate rifle bottomline even if it is a semi automatic.

[sumdud]

I think here is the problem to the conversation. One group cares about the part of the body hit and can't imagine having the bullet hit the wrong finger. The other don't care.

(M-21s getting better accuracy? Would that be due to an "uneven launch pad" leading to bad gas and worse accuracy in the M24, where the M-21 has the chamber clutter but since it moves back, it acts more like a RPG?)

------------------------
You are talking about combat, doesn't matter if you hit the right or left eye.

He is saying semis tend to have worse accuracy, so you can't depend on it to hit someone's left pointer.

If the circle continues, you know what happens.

[Chengdu J-10]

For China's Type 88 I personally feel that they should develop a new cartridge just for the rifle and not for any other small arms. I don't like how China uses the one all suites everything rule, using the 5.8 x 42 mm for its Type 95 assault rifles, machine guns and sniper rifles. The Type 88 sniper rifle should have something bigger in cartridge wise to give it more hitting power and range. (Dont know about the range) This new cartridge could be used for the machine gun but not the assault rifle. Assault rifle stick with the same cartridge while machine gun and sniper rifle change.

[Pointblank]

The Barrett company might disagree with you, sir! The semi-automatic anti-materiel weapon currently used by U.S. forces snipers is the one that provided the accuracy for the alleged "world-record" kill at thousands of meters. And, by the way, they are experimenting with a 25mm version that is still man-portable and will not cause lasting physical damage to the shooter! The ability of the semi-auto to return to battery quickly, with less punishment to the shooter, has made it the current weapon of choice for the real long-range killers.


Actually, the world longest range for a sniper kill (2,430 metres or 1.5 miles) is held by a Canadian sniper, Corporal Rob Furlong of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Regiment. He used a bolt-action McMillan TAC-50 0.50 BMG rifle, which was fitted with a 16x Leupold scope. And from my sources, it took 3 shots to hit the guy.

[isthvan]

I think here is the problem to the conversation. One group cares about the part of the body hit and can't imagine having the bullet hit the wrong finger. The other don't care.

(M-21s getting better accuracy? Would that be due to an "uneven launch pad" leading to bad gas and worse accuracy in the M24, where the M-21 has the chamber clutter but since it moves back, it acts more like a RPG?)

------------------------
You are talking about combat, doesn't matter if you hit the right or left eye.

He is saying semis tend to have worse accuracy, so you can't depend on it to hit someone's left pointer.

If the circle continues, you know what happens.

Sorry for this but I was joust trying to explain why SiG2000(and bolts in general) are used in PAP and in LE generally...
I don't have anything against semi autos and I think that they are great for military use but I was joust trying to explain why they aren't perfect choice in this particular scenario...

Now to cut this discussion and return to topic: is type88 replacement for type79/85 or is she supplementing type79/85? IMHO there is place for both rifles in PLA arsenal.

[Chengdu J-10]

Sorry for this but I was joust trying to explain why SiG2000(and bolts in general) are used in PAP and in LE generally...
I don't have anything against semi autos and I think that they are great for military use but I was joust trying to explain why they aren't perfect choice in this particular scenario...

Now to cut this discussion and return to topic: is type88 replacement for type79/85 or is she supplementing type79/85? IMHO there is place for both rifles in PLA arsenal.
I think that the Type 88 are going to be equipped in the PLA while the PAP might either stick with its current Type79/85 sniper rifles. Or the PAP might get a new sniper rifle, due to the PAP complained that the Type 88 didn't have the accuracy for hostage situations so this would indicate that the Type 88 in the PAP is not meeting the criterias. So either their will be a new modified Type 88 sniper rifle for the PAP, or completely new design, or stick with its current ones. The modified Type 88 seems the most appropriate.

[sumdud]

Well, SVDs are quite famous as a sniper rifle. (Overrated?) People will stick to them. Type 88 being inaccurrate? Where'd you hear that? Haven't heard. Bullet flying too low due to steel core?

[isthvan]

I think that the Type 88 are going to be equipped in the PLA while the PAP might either stick with its current Type79/85 sniper rifles. Or the PAP might get a new sniper rifle, due to the PAP complained that the Type 88 didn't have the accuracy for hostage situations so this would indicate that the Type 88 in the PAP is not meeting the criterias. So either their will be a new modified Type 88 sniper rifle for the PAP, or completely new design, or stick with its current ones. The modified Type 88 seems the most appropriate.

I was under impression that PAP will adopt JS 7.62mm (first post in this thread) but I didn't see any picture of it in operational service.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4751/191036131ls4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Btw. I would be grateful for any info about its operational status...

[Chengdu J-10]

Well, SVDs are quite famous as a sniper rifle. (Overrated?) People will stick to them. Type 88 being inaccurrate? Where'd you hear that? Haven't heard. Bullet flying too low due to steel core?
I didn't say they were inaccurate I said that they were not accurate enough for hostage situations were the dedicated sniper rifle (bolt action) comes into play. The Type 88 just isn't that accurate enough for the pure sniper rifle were near guarantee must be required. The Type 88 is obviously accurate, do you think that the PLA would equip its forces with an inaccurate rifle? Of course they wouldn't. The Type 88 (meant for rough abuse on the battlefield) is a designated marksmen rifle, not designed to the same degree as the dedicated true sniper rifle. The Type 88 should stick with the PLA while the PAP should get bolt action sniper rifles with further increase accuracy then the Type 88. Read clearly before posting back.

[noone536]

i can't see first link picture can someone ost again?

[coolieno99]

Doesn't the PLA have a new 12.7mm sniper rifle? i think its called the M99 or something 99? ...
The Type M99 is not China's newest 12.7mm sniper rifle. There are others.

Here's basic spec for Type M99:

Muzzle velocity: 800 m/s
Effective range: 1300 m
Weight: 12.5 kg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2009/m99sniper127mmlu0.jpg

[Chengdu J-10]

The Type M99 is not China's newest 12.7mm sniper rifle. There are others.

Here's basic spec for Type M99:

Muzzle velocity: 800 m/s
Effective range: 1300 m
Weight: 12.5 kg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2009/m99sniper127mmlu0.jpg
Big thanks for the correction and cool picture of the Type M99 12.7mm sniper rifle really hard to find these kind of pictures on the net though it does seem to be the same one that sinodefence has, except this one has Chinese wording and logo on it. Seen this one on sinodefence before but without the specs. But thanks anyway. And I've heard of some new 12.7mm sniper rifles but haven't seen any pictures of them or little of them anyway. If you have some can you please post them with the information. Keep the pictures rolling people.

[coolieno99]

The Chinese AMR-2 12.7mm sniper rifle is 2.7 kg lighter than the Type M99 and the effective range is extended to 1500 m.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4047/amr2chinasniperif4.jpg

[coolieno99]

The spec for the Chinese JS 12.7mm sniper rifle:

Muzzle velocity: 800 m/s
Effective range: 1500 m
Weight: 12.5 kg

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/939/js127mmwa1.jpg

[Chengdu J-10]

More Info:
12.7mm Semi-Automatic Anti-Equipment Rifle
Caliber: 12.7mm
Overall length: 1450mm
Total mass: 13kg
Magazine: 5 rounds (Semi-automatic) or 3 rounds (bolt action)
Muzzle velocity: 840m/s or 3024km/h
Effective range: 1500m
http://www.norincoequipment.cn//aboutus//product//12.7gun.jpg

[EddieBaker]

Just read the updated page on the JS 7.62mm and it said it used the Type 53 7.62 x 39mm cartridge. Is this a misprint? I thought Type 53 was the designation for 7.62 x 54mm Rimmed cartridges?

[Dongfeng]

Just read the updated page on the JS 7.62mm and it said it used the Type 53 7.62 x 39mm cartridge. Is this a misprint? I thought Type 53 was the designation for 7.62 x 54mm Rimmed cartridges?

I found it on some Chinese magazine saying that it was 7.62X39mm, but someone identified that the cartridge case in the photo is actually the one for 7.62X54mm. So I have amended the page

[hongkongpride]

"The Chinese AMR-2 12.7mm sniper rifle is 2.7 kg lighter than the Type M99 and the effective range is extended to 1500 m."

Nice weapon, my guess is that they will be comparable to the Barrett M82A1 anti-material sniper rifle in terms of stopping power and range.

However, I'm not sure what units they will be issued to-would they be just for the CT SWAT teams, PLASOF and PLAMC or general issue weapons?

And anyone know the specs?

Thanks

[goldenpanda]

Chinese Academy of Sciences 中科院 has best materials science research in the world, counting papers or citations. I bet that has to do with the "always little better than west" specs in Chinese ballistics.

[hongkongpride]

Can you provide any evidence to back up your claims about the:

"always little better than west" specs in Chinese ballistics?

because we still don't know anything about muzzle velocity and effective range of the AMR-2. A comparison:

AMR-2
Calibre: 12.7mm
Muzzle velocity: N/A
Weight: 9.8kg (empty)
Length: 1,420mm (stock open); 1,230mm (stock closed)
Barrel length: 850mm
Magazine capacity: 5 rounds
Effective range: N/A

M82A1
Caliber: .50 BMG (12.7 x 99 mm)
Operation: short recoil, semi-automatic
Overall length: 1448 mm
Barrel length: 737 mm
Feed device: 10-round detachable box magazine
Sights: 10x telescopic
Mass: 12.9 kg [about 28.5 pounds] empty
Muzzle velocity: 854 m/s (M33 Ball)
Max effective range: 1800 m
Expected accuracy: Sub-MOA with match ammo
Unit replacement cost: $8010.00

Barrett M-95 Anti Material Rifle
23.5 pounds (10.7 kg) empty, without scope
Length 45 inches (114.3 cm)
Barrel length 29 inch (73.7 cm)
Cartridge .50 BMG
Action Bolt action
Muzzle velocity 854 m/s
Maximum range 1800 meters
Feed system 5 Round Detachable Box Magazine


If the specs posted for the AMR-2 are correct, it suggests the AMR-2 has a higher range but lower muzzle velocity than an M82A1, thus reducing penetration-against unarmored targets it would not make the slightest difference as if you are hit by a 12.7mm round you would be BADLY hurt-but against lightly armored vehicles, the M82A1 could prove to be the better weapon-but don't quote me on this-because we don't know the full specs, I am just guessing based on my experience observing the operation of US sniper rifle systems.



Anyway, the JS 12.7mm rifle is certainly impressive although the weight (12.5kg) is slightly heavy for a sniper rifle compared to the AWM (7.0kg empty) and the M24 Sniper Rifle System (5.9kg empty).

However, if the PLA is planning to use it in the anti-material/light armor role, I don't see why the rifle cannot be effective.

[Red not Dead]

Isthvan: Your continued contention on the inherent inaccuracy of semi-auto sniper rifles bothered me, so I just instant-messaged a couple of Army sniper team platoon leaders - one in Iraq, the other in Afghanistan - from another forum I'm in. Their unified response: Both teams are using the M-21 (accurized M-14 with synthetic stock) as their primary. Both teams have returned their bolt actions to inventory, as they are getting better accuracy from the M-21. As one put it, "The 124 Hajjis we've put down in the past six months don't care whether we used a bolt-action or a semi-auto. They're still dead." He himself has a 900-yard kill with the M-21.

Well great you'll tell that to the 76th motorized Dv that uses for sniping at extreme ranges a HMG. Skill counts and unfortunately, a lot. 1000m kills with Dragunovs are getting more and more common since Putin is giving to his boys decent ammo and Giperon scopes. But all and all Bolt Rifles have a shit load of features that render them particularly more suitable to the "sniper role"...And Don't forget there is not much sniper action in Iraq any more but pure DMR action! Even the Hajis are doeing the same.

Can you provide any evidence to back up your claims about the:

"always little better than west" specs in Chinese ballistics?

because we still don't know anything about muzzle velocity and effective range of the AMR-2. A comparison:

AMR-2
Calibre: 12.7mm
Muzzle velocity: N/A
Weight: 9.8kg (empty)
Length: 1,420mm (stock open); 1,230mm (stock closed)
Barrel length: 850mm
Magazine capacity: 5 rounds
Effective range: N/A

M82A1
Caliber: .50 BMG (12.7 x 99 mm)
Operation: short recoil, semi-automatic
Overall length: 1448 mm
Barrel length: 737 mm
Feed device: 10-round detachable box magazine
Sights: 10x telescopic
Mass: 12.9 kg [about 28.5 pounds] empty
Muzzle velocity: 854 m/s (M33 Ball)
Max effective range: 1800 m
Expected accuracy: Sub-MOA with match ammo
Unit replacement cost: $8010.00

Barrett M-95 Anti Material Rifle
23.5 pounds (10.7 kg) empty, without scope
Length 45 inches (114.3 cm)
Barrel length 29 inch (73.7 cm)
Cartridge .50 BMG
Action Bolt action
Muzzle velocity 854 m/s
Maximum range 1800 meters
Feed system 5 Round Detachable Box Magazine


If the specs posted for the AMR-2 are correct, it suggests the AMR-2 has a higher range but lower muzzle velocity than an M82A1, thus reducing penetration-against unarmored targets it would not make the slightest difference as if you are hit by a 12.7mm round you would be BADLY hurt-but against lightly armored vehicles, the M82A1 could prove to be the better weapon-but don't quote me on this-because we don't know the full specs, I am just guessing based on my experience observing the operation of US sniper rifle systems.



Anyway, the JS 12.7mm rifle is certainly impressive although the weight (12.5kg) is slightly heavy for a sniper rifle compared to the AWM (7.0kg empty) and the M24 Sniper Rifle System (5.9kg empty).

However, if the PLA is planning to use it in the anti-material/light armor role, I don't see why the rifle cannot be effective.

Your M82 numbers are the A3 ones. The A1 is 14 kg empty.

More weight means more stability (especially given the round fired-12.7x108P).

[hongkongpride]

My apologies for trusting wikipedia,

However, that's what it says on the Barrett M82 wikipage so you're probably right.

LOL