FFG 054/054A Thread

[tphuang]

I think this picture really answers a lot of questions about HH-16's launch system.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8727/hh16launchmar24hf3.jpg

[crobato]

It also answers the long standing question of how the missile looks like. Not surprisingly it also uses the concept of having minimal width fins on the center body which is expected for modern SAMs and AAMs to achieve minimum drag.

[mxiong]

The missile could be either SAM or ASROC.

[Londo Molari]

Is that really the type 054A?

The entire edges of the ship have the grill/support bars running to the very front... the type 054A does not have that.

[Quickie]

Notice the shapes in the middle and bottom of the picture. It's like someone is playing cut and paste with the picture; but could that be intentional to hide some details?

[tphuang]

Is that really the type 054A?

The entire edges of the ship have the grill/support bars running to the very front... the type 054A does not have that.

That's 891, I believe. It's the test ship for HH-16. As of now, 054A just have the cells, but no missiles in them yet.


The missile could be either SAM or ASROC.

ASROC? no indication such exist.

[crobato]

There is a whole bunch of pics for the fourth vessel (568/569?). It looks like the painting job is done and she seems ready for her commissioning. Just too much pics right now for me to load.

http://junshi.club.xilu.com/emas/msgview-821955-904671.html

[lilzz]

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/772/hh16launchmar24xp5.jpg

What's the spec on HQ-16, comparing to the HQ-9?

[Londo Molari]

I'd say those stats are one of the better kept secrets.

[jwangyue]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that HQ-16 is of a cold launch variant. Why does this one looks like it is hot launched from the VLS?

[kw64]

somehow the above photo looks like PSed to me.

[tphuang]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that HQ-16 is of a cold launch variant. Why does this one looks like it is hot launched from the VLS?

who told you it was cold launched? We didn't know either way, this picture showed up it's hot launched. and please check 054A thread, the picture was already posted here, that's why I had to merge your newly created thread,lilzz

[kw64]

I read the news 2 weeks ago from magazine that China will export 054A that the price 200 million USD for each,and Malaysia already prepared 1.5 billion US dollars military budget for the purchase of 054 A Chinese frigate.
Malaysia plans to buy British frigates, but the price increase because the United Kingdom, Malaysia changed its mind and decided to purchase China's 054 A.

1.5 billion USD? That's six ships total if each ship costs $200mil. Seems like a huge investment for ships that's newly designed and still under service evaluation. Is there a link to the news?

[Pointblank]

1.5 billion USD? That's six ships total if each ship costs $200mil. Seems like a huge investment for ships that's newly designed and still under service evaluation. Is there a link to the news?

I am guessing that the Malaysians are using lifecycle costing, which means that the costs for the expected lifetime of repairs, upgrades, training, disposal, construction and demolishing of buildings to support the equipment is factored into the purchase cost.

[tphuang]

well, a bunch of photos of the 2nd 054A from HD finally sailing off to join SSF and the third one finally appearing in the dock. Also, I attached a photo of the 30 mm CIWS on F-22P, looks different from 630 and 730.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5049/568apr7nt0.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/2636/568apr73wj0.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8083/568apr74tl2.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4037/054ahd3apr7jt7.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4241/f22papr73os0.jpg

[Jeff Head]

well, a bunch of photos of the 2nd 054A from HD finally sailing off to join SSF and the third one finally appearing in the dock.So, if that indeed is a 054A, and it sure looks like it is, then that will be number five? Two at each site completed and now starting a third at HD?

Perhaps we will soon see another at HP soon.

[crobato]

Maybe you missed the Huangpu pics about a month or two ago showing a good potential hull in a state more advanced than this one in Hudong. That would make the Huangpu hull the fifth ship, and this one the sixth ship.

It seems reasonable since it looks like a pair of ships are being allocated per fleet (East Sea, South Sea and North Sea). With two ships each for the ESF and SSF, the next step would be another two ships for the NSF.

[Jeff Head]

Maybe you missed the Huangpu pics about a month or two ago showing a good potential hull in a state more advanced than this one in Hudong. That would make the Huangpu hull the fifth ship, and this one the sixth ship.

It seems reasonable since it looks like a pair of ships are being allocated per fleet (East Sea, South Sea and North Sea). With two ships each for the ESF and SSF, the next step would be another two ships for the NSF.
I see it now. Do you mean this pic?

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/attachments/naval-forces-navy/2775d1206169764-ffg-054-054a-thread-054a_hudong_background.jpg

That looks potentially like another Type 054A, though the building looks like it may not be tall enough for the superstructure...but time will tell.

I have been expecting to see more of the Type 054As being built.

[tphuang]

yes, time will tell.

I can only be sure about this one, because the source for this is pretty authentic. He posts all the images and have never been wrong about this before.

Jeff, the one you posted seems to be from Shanghai.

[mxiong]

A rare scene...USS Lassen (DDG-82) meeting the new 054A at Shanghai...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2400063667_7be5577629_o.jpg

[crobato]

Actually Jeff, the picture I was referring to is in the CDF, the bytes a bit too big to post here. It shows the hull form of the 054A, more complete even. Its on the same closed dock where previous 054A came out. This is in the Huangpu Guangzhou shipyard.

Also the pic for the post above. Seems to have problems popping up.

[Jeff Head]

Actually Jeff, the picture I was referring to is in the CDF, the bytes a bit too big to post here. It shows the hull form of the 054A, more complete even. Its on the same closed dock where previous 054A came out. This is in the Huangpu Guangzhou shipyard.

Also the pic for the post above. Seems to have problems popping up.
Thanks. Could you give me a link to that pic? I'd be interested in seeing it.

The pic of the Arleigh Burke and the 054A as the US ship passes is a good picture.

[Londo Molari]

haha you can see a line of sailors on the heli-pad on the burke checking out the type 054A, and there also seems to be a line of sailors looking back from mid-ship of the 054A :)

[crobato]

Thanks. Could you give me a link to that pic? I'd be interested in seeing it.

The pic of the Arleigh Burke and the 054A as the US ship passes is a good picture.

Sure. Its in this thread. You have to scroll down to the bottom of the thread.

http://bbs.news.sina.com.cn/tableforum/App/view.php?bbsid=4&subid=3&fid=69731&tbid=693

[maozedong]

http://i2.sinaimg.cn/jc/p/2008-04-11/U1335P27T1D494715F26DT20080411083949.jpg

Monday, China officially delivered to the Pakistan navy a new F-22 frigates.
I do not understand why Pakistan does not need 054 A, whether it is because the price?

[Pointblank]

The Pakistani's was supposed to be getting a Spruance class destroyer from the US, but I haven't heard anything from that transfer yet, and the Spruance in question (ex-USS Fletcher) is still listed as stricken, to be disposed of.

[xuansu]

http://i2.sinaimg.cn/jc/p/2008-04-11/U1335P27T1D494715F26DT20080411083949.jpg

Monday, China officially delivered to the Pakistan navy a new F-22 frigates.
I do not understand why Pakistan does not need 054 A, whether it is because the price?

When the f-22 order was placed, 054 existed only on paper, if at all. Pakistan wanted something that's mature and sure of success.

[Londo Molari]

Pakistan Navy needs to replace its old British frigates fast. They are also on a tight budget. The F-22P was available before Type 054A existed, and it is also cheaper than Type 054A.

Once Pakistan operates the F-22P, if they like it, they will certainly request some Type 054A in the near future, because they need a lot more than 4 ships, and Type-054A offers a big jump in capabilities.

Until then, they might go for a stop-gap measure like some old US-OHP frigates.

[xiyanz]

All Pakistan has right now are 6 really old British frigates. 4 F22 is alot. I don't think that they can afford much more than that. Maybe another 4 more in the future. But, that's all a country that size need.

[Londo Molari]

The problem is that the 6 British frigates are falling part... the 4 F-22P will replace them right-away... So the Pakistan Navy (PN) will only be left with 4 frigates soon. And they need a lot more than that if they get blockaded by the massive Indian Navy.

PN is going to be more comfortable with a navy of 8-12 frigates... but that acquisition budget will be spread out over next 5-10 years.

[tphuang]

Pictures of 570 and a couple of other ships in a SSF base. Notice that 168-171 seems to be in a separate base. I really need the PLAN ORBAT for this.

[Rauf]

PN is looking at 4 or so 054 type ships, will they be Chinese 054, or some european type is still to be decided. PN is also looking at few FFG-7 Perry class soon to be retired from USN service, how soon will they become available and ready for PN is still to be waited for.

[Jeff Head]

Pictures of 570 and a couple of other ships in a SSF base. Notice that 168-171 seems to be in a separate base. I really need the PLAN ORBAT for this.I gotta say, the Type 054A is one nice looking FFG, some very nice lines...and with its ASuM, VLS AAM, main gun, embarked helo, etc...also very capable.

[tphuang]

I gotta say, the Type 054A is one nice looking FFG, some very nice lines...and with its ASuM, VLS AAM, main gun, embarked helo, etc...also very capable.

still got quite a few things it should improve on though. And there are just things like the combat system and sensor fusion and such we will not know about for a while.

Anyhow, someone claims this is a picture of the 3rd 054A from HD.

[mxiong]

Pictures of 570 and a couple of other ships in a SSF base. Notice that 168-171 seems to be in a separate base. I really need the PLAN ORBAT for this.

Obviously you left out the prettiest one IMO...:nono:

[tphuang]

not sure what the link of the original article is.

东海舰队新型战舰舰载雷达捕获目标只需数秒
郭长博　王毅　本报特约通讯员　方立华
　　阳春3月，东海舰队某驱逐舰支队新型舰艇编队驶向大海深处，进行防空对抗演练。某舰舰载雷达开机仅×秒 ，就迅速捕捉到目标。
该舰载雷达前不久还“重病缠身”，导致全舰防空系统难以有效发挥作用。而舰载雷达故障的成功排除，是该支队 官兵不迷信专家论断的结果。

　　新型舰艇列装该支队不久，某舰载雷达就出现技术故障。厂方专家进行多次排查，均未查明原因。上级组织相 关院校和科研所的技术专家集中研究100多天，判断故障点在雷达某模块中，但由于缺少备件，故 障无法排除。

　　故障一天不排除，新装备就难以形成战斗力。在排查工作止步不前的情况下，该支队决定：组织自己的技术力 量攻关，进行自修。他们成立了由支队总工程师李伍生等5人组成的技术攻关小组。故障是不是真的如专家所说那 样？技术攻关小组表示质疑。他们翻阅了600多万字的技术资料和随舰图纸，把培训期间整理的 42册雷达技术学习笔记仔仔细细“筛”了一遍。在掌握大量第一手资料后，他们运用逆向思维，判定故障原因是 厂方提供的随舰图纸上两处线路标错，使实装线路错接所致。
　　这一结论否定了雷达专家刚刚作出的故障推断，引起轩然大波。有的人劝道，对新装备故障的排查要万分谨慎 ，否则捅了娄子不好收拾。厂方则明确提出，要严格按图纸接线，不能随意更改，否则后果自负。

　　不敢冒风险就无以言突破。在支队党委支持下，攻关小组再次认真细致地比对技术资料，对实装线路进行改接 。通电检查后，故障现象马上消失。随后的海上演练中，该舰载雷达技术状态完全正常！

　　专家未能排除的重大故障，被“小字辈”们攻克了。在上下一片叫好声中，该支队党委清醒地认识到，对专家 要相信不迷信，听从不盲从，依靠不依赖，只有打造自己过硬的技术保障群体，才能加快新装备形成战斗力的步伐 。

　　为此，该支队趁热打铁，出台了《学习新装备奖惩措施》，每年拿出30万元培训和奖励基金，用于培训和奖 励技术骨干。他们与国内80多个科研所建立了协作关系，选派数百名学历高、年纪轻、技术好、有发展潜力的技 术骨干到工厂见习，送院校深造，进行重点培养。同时，支队把新装备作为教材和练兵阵地，着眼整体，全员普训 ，骨干轮训，尖子深训，采取“集中学理论、分散学技能、出海练协同、综合练保障”的办法，开展作战保障演练 。

　　如今，“小字辈”挑战专家引起的正效应在该支队不断凸现：新装备随后发生的技术故障，全部都依靠自己的 力量排除；官兵们先后取得了《某型舰船机电图纸资料自动化管理系统》等100多项技术攻关成果，其中6项被 海军评为优秀成果奖。

talk about the new search radar of a new ship in ESF (clearly talking about Sea Eagle with 054A here) and that it had a lot of problems in the beginning and the air defense system almost could not function. However, the problems are now addressed and it can track targets within x seconds (without specifying what x is). This could be why the ships were sent back to HP/HD for so long. They must have found a lot of problems with Sea Eagle during sea tests. Remember, this already was the most thoroughly tested radar in PLAN history before being put on 054A.

[tphuang]

looks like the same ship that was called the 3rd HD 054A from the previous post, not much has changed since.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2255/054ahd3apr25jp9.jpg

[crobato]

Inside Huangpu shipyard...

[tphuang]

Inside Huangpu shipyard...

yeah, the guy that regularly takes photo from HP mentioned that it looks far more like 054A when you are there and the lighting is good. the photo doesn't do this justice or something like that.

[crobato]

Rumor time once again...

089爆泄中国海军巨密：H16打得狠准 居然有052E 054A配鱼8导弹

=====


089爆泄中国海军巨密

H16性能相当无耻，居然超越法拉稀国的紫苑15

小巴海军曰H61很娇贵，但打得狠准

居然有052E

054A上面配有反潜导弹，名曰鱼8

航妈娃两格，在2010年前一屁股会服役

[alopes]

Can someone translate the Chinese text of the article.

[optionsss]

it suggests HQ16 is superior than aster 15,
there is a 054E, armed with 8 YU-8 anti-submarine missile.
varyag will enter service before 2010.

something else about H61 in the PAK navy being accurate.

[tphuang]

well, from the look of the text, I think he is not that authentic, but that's just my view. This comment is actually not that hard to understand.

[su-27]

Pardon Tphuang, I couldn't red this topic for a lot. Can you update me about the number of 054As seems be builded and/or in building? Thank'you very much!

[tphuang]

Pardon Tphuang, I couldn't red this topic for a lot. Can you update me about the number of 054As seems be builded and/or in building? Thank'you very much!

well, in the future, please just read through the thread. I will not be answering questions like this again. Basically, you are looking at 4 in service + another 2 in construction.

[crobato]

Two 054As in the south.

[tphuang]

a couple of shots from Modern Ship magazine of the two 054As in ESF. Not much out of ordinary here.

[maozedong]

http://i0.sinaimg.cn/jc/p/2008-07-05/U1335P27T1D508860F3DT20080705092556.jpg

from the pic,the 054A-529 is not much smaller than Sovremenys, I suspect the real tonnage of 054A that official gave,because the Art of War told us:war strategy means sneaky.

[kickars]

I suspect the real tonnage of 054A that official gave,because the Art of War told us:war strategy means sneaky.
The thing is there never been an 'official' tonnage of 054A from PLAN. We only think the tonnage of 054A is about 4500t by comparing with 054.

[Jeff Head]

http://i0.sinaimg.cn/jc/p/2008-07-05/U1335P27T1D508860F3DT20080705092556.jpg

from the pic,the 054A-529 is not much smaller than Sovremenys, I suspect the real tonnage of 054A that official gave,because the Art of War told us:war strategy means sneaky.
That picture does not really reveal the differences in size of these vessels. The Length of the Proj 956 vessels is 156.5 meters while that of the Type 054A is 125 meters. That's 30 meters longer. The beam of the 956 is 17.5 meters, while that of the 054A is 15 meters. Two meters wider does not seem like much, unitl you take it the entire length of both vessels, that extra width the whole length of the 054A and then the extra width and length thpose last 30 meters.

Then there is the weapons fit. The 956 has a much heavier weapons fit than the 054A.

All of this adds up signifanctly and lead to the disparity in diplacement of 3500 tons which could very easily be realized with all that extra lengeth and width and the weapons fit.

A better picture is one that shows them from overhead, at dock, next to each other directly from the side.

[maozedong]

The thing is there never been an 'official' tonnage of 054A from PLAN. We only think the tonnage of 054A is about 4500t by comparing with 054.

some thing interesting that is chinese official magazine < Naval & Merchant Ship > -舰船知识( 中国造船工程学会主办 ),gave the information about 054 displacement is 39,000t in full load, and Jane's < War Ship> also use the same information in the same time,the book published 054 displacement is 39,000t in full load.they are both adopting the same chinese official source.so, if 054 and 054A use the same propulsion four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN Diesel SA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines,054A displacement only 4,2000t in full load.
but in Sinodefence.com the information for 054/054A displacement is 4,2000t and 45,000t in full.

[crobato]

Some rumors, implying a fifth and a sixth vessel in Hudong (did not count the possible construction in Huangpu).

今日海军最猛组图：沪东和黄埔的第五艘、第六艘054A 下饺子



沪东和黄埔的新青年五妹和六妹，不知道现在怎么样了？
作者：songfq 发表日期：2008-07-06

[tphuang]

568 has been named, I guess this is its official commissioning?

ZT568叫巢湖舰
7月9日上午,南海某军港彩旗飘扬,军乐声声,仪仗队持枪肃立，海军南海舰队在这里隆重举行海军巢湖舰命名 仪式。官兵们身着雪白的新式军装，列队欢迎,海军南海舰队司令员苏士亮中将、副司令员肖新年少将、副参谋长 么志楼少将、巢湖市委常委、巢湖军分区司令员李传志，巢湖市委常委、副市长王明鉴和市民政局负责同志等参加 了命名仪式, 解放军总装备部、海军装备部、海军南海舰队机关和首长到会祝贺,海军某支队共2千多名官兵参加 了命名大会。

巢湖舰是我国自行研究建造的最先进的导弹护卫舰,具有较强的反潜、防空、对海作战和信息战、电子战能力。巢 湖舰的建设得到了上级机关的高度重视,配备了军政素质高的舰员,目前,舰上拥有一名博士研究生,七名硕士研 究生等一批高学历人才,官兵们争当一流舰员,争创一流业绩,决心把巢湖舰建设成一艘标杆舰,回报巢湖人民的 厚爱.

市委常委、副市长王明鉴在命名会上表示，拥有现代国防技术的568号导弹护卫舰以“巢湖舰”命名并列编部队 服役，不仅展示了人民海军强大威力，更使我市名扬海内外，这不仅是我市人民的光荣和骄傲，也为我市争创“全 国双拥模范城”增添了新的动力。王明鉴就下一步双拥共建工作指出，我们将以此为新的起点，进一步加强同“巢 湖舰”官兵的沟通交流，广泛开展与“巢湖舰”的合作共建，“巢湖舰”一定能够成为舰员与巢湖人民增加友谊的 桥梁，成为军地双拥共建的典范。

中共巢湖市委、市人民政府向巢湖舰赠送了一辆江淮瑞风商务车、10万元慰问金和专为巢湖舰创作的巢湖舰舰歌 。

命名仪式大会上海军南海舰队司令员苏士亮中将为568舰颁发了命名证书并授军旗，巢湖市委常委、巢湖军分区 司令员李传志，巢湖市委常委、副市长王明鉴与“巢湖舰”舰长、政委互赠了纪念品。(传自巢湖民政局网站信息 )

[tphuang]

this is what's going on in HP shipyard right now, does this look like 054A? I'm not too sure.

[AssassinsMace]

I'm no expert but the lines leading to the bow of that ship are different from a 54A. It looks more similar to the 52Bs and Cs but I have no idea what the wedge cut at the tip of the bow is all about.

[crobato]

I agree with assasins' observation. Here is a picture for comparison. The shape of the bow to the superstructure is more indicative of the 052B/C class.

[Roger604]

That's great news. For the 052D, they need to have a VLS like the 054A's. The 054A's can actually fit more cells than the 32 it has. So the larger 052D should have at least 64 and up to 96. As crobato mentioned here in SDF, they should also abandon the superstructure PAR panels for a top of the mast PAR like the Daring class. And they definitely need helicopters. Helicopters are a big weakness of the Chinese military in general.

[flyzies]

^ With that many missiles it would take up enormous space. Perhaps PLAN should develop something that's effective and efficient as the MK-41 VLS...

[Jeff Head]

this is what's going on in HP shipyard right now, does this look like 054A? I'm not too sure.
Beam looks far too wide for a 054A, and it looks like it stretches quite a ways back there in the third picture. I may well be wrong, but that looks like a larger vessel and does not have the right lines for a 054A.

[Skywatcher]

That's great news. For the 052D, they need to have a VLS like the 054A's. The 054A's can actually fit more cells than the 32 it has. So the larger 052D should have at least 64 and up to 96. As crobato mentioned here in SDF, they should also abandon the superstructure PAR panels for a top of the mast PAR like the Daring class. And they definitely need helicopters. Helicopters are a big weakness of the Chinese military in general.

Aren't superstructure PARs more powerful than mast mounted PARs, by virtue of their larger sizes? I imagine that the PLAN would want to stick to the superstructure arrangement to deal with enemy aviation (I'm thinking of the ROCAF and the USN carrier wings in particular).

[Roger604]

^ With that many missiles it would take up enormous space. Perhaps PLAN should develop something that's effective and efficient as the MK-41 VLS...

Sigh..... you mean something like this

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/showimage.asp?imagename=type054jiangkai_03large

A Type 054A can easily fit one of these in the front and one set in the back too. A much larger displacement Type 052D can fit at least 3 x 32 cells.

Aren't superstructure PARs more powerful than mast mounted PARs, by virtue of their larger sizes? I imagine that the PLAN would want to stick to the superstructure arrangement to deal with enemy aviation (I'm thinking of the ROCAF and the USN carrier wings in particular).

If you look at a picture of the Daring class you see that the top mounted PAR is pretty large too. By mounting things high you have a much better ability to track sea skimming missiles.

[flyzies]

Sigh..... you mean something like this

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/showimage.asp?imagename=type054jiangkai_03large

A Type 054A can easily fit one of these in the front and one set in the back too. A much larger displacement Type 052D can fit at least 3 x 32 cells.


Yes i am well aware China has VLS on 054A thankyou very much. But it can only fire the HQ-16 and (possibly) Y-8...which means its nowhere near as efficient or effective as MK-41; as that could launch everything from RIM-162 to SM-3 to Tomahawks. One launch system for all the ships missiles...

[Gollevainen]

A Type 054A can easily fit one of these in the front and one set in the back too. A much larger displacement Type 052D can fit at least 3 x 32 cells

Ehh..no. 045A can fit and has one set of the VLS in the front, but there is no room for it in the rear. Don't let somewhat clear spot in the upper deck to fool you to think that there isen't anything bellow it. VLS system, like any other system that penetrates bellow the decks takes space and in ships of these size, the space is already tight. You cannot just imagine that you can stuck just about anything into the ship and expect that stuff bellow would just go away...If 054A could carry VLS set in the rear, it most certainly would have done that.

Another factor is the plain old topweight...If you would fit a heavy system like VLS so high from the waterline (remember the place where you think the rear VLS would go is two decks higher than the front VLS) it increases the weight in the wrong area in the ship. You all have been in physic class, so you propapbly remember few things about moments of force...

And the VLS in 054A can only fire HHQ-16, or at least there is no indication that it could launch any other type of missiles.

[adeptitus]

I have yet to see a clear photo of the VL-SAM that goes into the 054A, but for purpose of discussion we'll assume it's the HHQ-16 with speculated max range of 42km-65km. That makes it a medium range SAM.

I'm sure you could mount more HHQ-16 cels on a larger ship. But if the purpose of building the larger ships is to load larger, heavier long-range naval SAM on them, then it's rather pointless to fill them up with short to medium ranged missiles.

To compare, the weight of a SA-N-6 SAM (S-300F) is more than twice the weight of a SA-N-12 SAM. Same with SM-2 ER vs. SM-1. Bigger missile = fewer missile carried.


As for the space issue, we can see that on the 051C, they mounted the S-300F/SA-N-6 in the aft in lieu of hanger deck. It's a trade-off to provide the ship with sufficient SAM rounds to perform its AAW role.

Other ships, such as the Canadian Halifax class frigate, also has "above deck" VL-SAM installs due to lack of internal space:


http://www.navy.gc.ca/cms_images/ship_site_images/ship_gallery/341/HALIFAX%20Class%20Patrol%20Frigate.jpg

[crobato]

1. At 6100mt surface displacement, the 052C is hardly a big ship. In fact, for a surface displacement of that figure, its remarkable you can put 48 honking big S-300 class missiles on it. Between 6000 to 9000mt, you have a whole range of super frigates and destroyers whose SAM capability ranges from 32 to 64 missiles, with smaller Standards and ESSMs. The fact the 052C packs 48 such missiles on that displacement with rounded launchers I would say is quite amazing, but there has to be some sacrifices made like one less helicopter.

2. I have previously pointed out that for larger and larger missiles, it becomes more safer and convenient to use cold launched systems rather than hot launched. It takes a little imagination why. The bigger missile goes deeper down the ship, which has its own dangers when the missile take off blast occurs near the engine room, fuel tanks and ammo storage. The stronger blasts require larger vent tunnels out of the cannisters and into outside vents, and all these means eventually such a setup means that hot launched systems for large missiles take up more space.

3. Its possible for cold launched systems to be more space compact than hot launched systems, eliminating the vents and side tunnels. The key to this is to develop squared matrix type launchers and move away from rotary launchers. Each launcher would have a separate blast container underneath the missile (the 052C launcher already has this scheme). Examples are the 3S-14E VLS launcher on the Talways, and the VLS launcher intended for the VLS Shtil. However, I'm not sure if the PLAN has such a system under development.

4. It may be possible that 052D may in fact retain the cold launched rotary launcher and show refinements on the radar equipment instead.

5. It may also be possible that HQ-9 development may also be a dead end, a missile that maybe inconveniently too big, and future development maybe focused on developing improved versions of the HH-16.

6. We can have a conceptual hybrid where the 052C's PAR can be combined with HH-16, but unless HH-16's seeker can be active, a SARH HH-16 combined with the PAR can only be possible if the PAR has separate transmit and receive elements, like an AESA, so the array can search, track and target (SARH) illuminate all at the same time. So far the only known vessels on Earth that has radars that can do all these things are the APARs on the Sachsen class and De Zeven Provincien class frigates with SM-2 missiles.

[Gollevainen]

If there really is a new chinese destroyers being build, to me the greatest interest is not so much in the armament and sensors, but in the overall design.

People keep mentioning "052D" but are we sure that the new destroyer will continue the 052-series? I personally hope not. 052 serie is IMO end of it's road. The CODAG arragment of the 052 series is already near it's maxium size limits in the 052B/C so if the new destroyer intends to be larger, COGAG or COGOG arragment is more preferable. If such solution is choosen, then I belive it's going to be a completely new design 05X.

Of the weapons and systems onboard, there are few interesting choises which remains to seen:

1) The SSMs. Will there be YJ-63 or YJ-83? My bet is on the latter tough this new DDG could be the intended platform for the YJ-63. If it fields YJ-83, I think we can say goodbye to the YJ-63 as it would seem that it isen't so succesfull weapon after all. This is really the benchmark for the system.

2) The already mentioned and discussed SAM. I think alot depends on the intended mission of this class. Will it be the mass-production general purpose workhorse" like anticipated from the 052B? If so then I assume that HHQ-16 will be the weapon of choise. It's more than enough for such vessels. Of the radar fit, I throw a guestion to you guys, crobato mainly: If the ship fields PAR, couldn't the Orekh-look-alike illumators work as in 054A? You see the concept of the Uragan/HHQ-16 is already in princible the same as in the Aegis system, this case the Fregat serve in place of the SPY-1 (naturally alot scaled-down capability).

3) ASW orientation. Would we finally see a fleet-scale bluewater ASW platform with powerfull sonarsuite and other-than-selfdefence ASW armament? 2 helicopter capability is the first indication of such.

4) The CIWS. Reports says that chinese choosed the current arragment for it's type 730 CIWS with fire control radar fixed in the gun mount as there were some proplems with the stabilization with seperately mounted firecontrol radars with the earlier type 76A guns. However the latest fit of the system in the Pakistanese type 22P shows stripped down version of the Type 730 with optical sights and firecontrol radars seperated from the mount. So which version will we see in this new destroyer design?

[crobato]

1. Call it YJ-62, not YJ-63. YJ-63 is the missile carried by the H-6H bomber and its body proportions is more like the classic Silkworm dolphin shape rather than the Tomahawk cigar shape. While both are antiship missiles, and the YJ-62 might have its airborne version too, the YJ-62 and YJ-63 are distinct.

2. Yeah I think having Orekh like illuminators can lessen the burden on the main PARs allowing them to concentrate on volume search and tracking. A possible arrangement might be something like the 052B, but with the Chinese Orekhs and Fregats and the VLS replacing the rail launcher.

3. I would kind of think that if Huangpu in Guangzhou is building a destroyer, it won't be a new class but rather based on an existing design. Huangpu isn't exactly in the same line and caliber as the Shanghai shipyards, and if there is going to be an all new class, its going to have to come out from either the new Jiangnan/Changxin yards or the Hudong-Zhonghua shipyard before subsequent production gets parceled to Huangpu.

4. If you can forget about having a VLS on the back, it maybe possible to put two helicopters in the back. The last time the PLAN had a two helo helicopter, it was with the 167 Shenzhen.

5. If a new non-054A warship is being built in Huangpu, in my opinion it may have a high chance of using the HH-16/VLS combination since the shipyard already has the experience, although it does not eliminate the possibility of trying something the shipyard has not tried before. However, I don't expect Huangpu to try some very new unexplored stuff; again that would be job of the Shanghai yards. This would not eliminate the possibility of a 052C that would still retain its rounded launchers and HQ-9 but with some changes on the radars fitted.

6. On the CIWS, the one that appeared on the F-22P might be an export variant and not necessarily would appear on the domestic ones.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

People keep mentioning "052D" but are we sure that the new destroyer will continue the 052-series? I personally hope not. 052 serie is IMO end of it's road. The CODAG arragment of the 052 series is already near it's maxium size limits in the 052B/C so if the new destroyer intends to be larger, COGAG or COGOG arragment is more preferable. If such solution is choosen, then I belive it's going to be a completely new design 05X.

From what I understand, in PLAN nomenclature the designation 052 does not indicate a particular design type or hull type. 052 is used for all gas-turbine destroyers and 051 is used for ones that use steam turbine. Therefore the overall design of the 052D may look completely different from the 052C/B.

[crobato]

That's true, although that does not explain 053 vs. 054.

[Gollevainen]

From my observation, the codename is indication of certain design. 051 is the Luda design which is in the terms of concept passed on to 051B which is the Luhai class. Now natuarally the hull design is different in these ships, but the overal layout concept is similar. 052 is for the Luhu class and the 052B/C are just continious development of it. 053 is the code for Jianghu class and all it's derivations, including Jianweig which was the ultimate version of the design. 054 is clearly a new and different one so thus a new code as well.

[tphuang]

since it's Aug1, a lot of pictures are coming out. I just love this, a bunch of 054/A pictures, the one with all the 054s in ESF is just beautiful.

[bd popeye]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=5049

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=5050

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=5051

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=5052

Type 054A Jiangkai-II class FFG. Notice no pennant(hull) number

[maozedong]

popeye,the pics are all 054A,they are Jiangkai-II.
Jiangkai-1 come with HQ-7 air defefce missile , not Vertical launch AAM.

[bd popeye]

popeye,the pics are all 054A,they are Jiangkai-II.
Jiangkai-1 come with HQ-7 air defefce missile , not Vertical launch AAM.

Thanks..My bad..I made another boo boo...:o:o:o

[crobato]

Those pictures were taken before the ship got its pennant. Today, its either 568 or 570. I'm not sure why ships goes to the South Seas Fleet without a pennant, and only get their pennant there, while ships that goes to the North and East Seas Fleets get their pennants before they sail off the yards.

[mxiong]

http://cache.orion.sina.com.cn/fansjczs_d/upload/217/91/1403588047/21068.jpg

What a beauty...

[tphuang]

i'm not 100% sure on this, but this looks like the 3rd 054A from HD. At least it looks similar to the previous unfinished photos of that ship.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5931/054ahd3aug26mm6.jpg

[montyp165]

If the PLAN starts mass-producing destroyers with those box VLS tubes and phased array radars, that would go a long way to matching the Japanese Atagos and SK Aegis destroyers.

[tphuang]

well, if I was right about the last picture, then this should be newer pictures of the 3rd 054A from HD.

[escobar]

tphuang
do you believe the third 054A would be different from the previous?

[escobar]

montyp65 why do you want them to match japan aegis destroyer
they are frigate not destroyer

[montyp165]

montyp65 why do you want them to match japan aegis destroyer
they are frigate not destroyer

Was referring to Type 052D and future destroyers being equipped with box VLS launchers specifically.

[tphuang]

tphuang
do you believe the third 054A would be different from the previous?
i think it will be but the difference won't be dramatic. 054B I think will be a big change, involving more VLS cells, probably CODOG propulsion and more emphasized in ASW.

[crobato]

Personally I don't think there will be any change at all, not at least for the next two ships.

Having more VLS would mean an increased in ship size to absorb all that weight (an increase in the hull surface area that has contact with the water) and at some point it would stop being called a frigate.

[Roger604]

It's strange that two Type 054's are being built in HD while another Type 054 is being built in HP.

Is it possible that one of the Type 054's being built in HD is a Type 054B?

[crobato]

If ships are being built in a fast mass production pace, its unlikely to be different from each other. Furthermore, such a pace of production is also like to express satisfaction with the base design that they're not likely to introduce a new variation soon. So its likely to be the same type of ship.

However, though visually it seems that the ship in Huangpu is starting to look different and there is a question whether its a 054A being built there. I had more of the impression from the hull's appearance that its actually more of a 052C type.

[tphuang]

It's strange that two Type 054's are being built in HD while another Type 054 is being built in HP.

Is it possible that one of the Type 054's being built in HD is a Type 054B?

I only see one 054A ship being built in HD and none confirmed in HP. I'm not sure where you get 2 and 1 from.

[Roger604]

I only see one 054A ship being built in HD and none confirmed in HP. I'm not sure where you get 2 and 1 from.

Below

Some rumors, implying a fifth and a sixth vessel in Hudong (did not count the possible construction in Huangpu).

I thought HP was where this mysterious "too big to be 054A" is.

[tphuang]

Below



I thought HP was where this mysterious "too big to be 054A" is.

we only have photo of 1 under construction. Theoretically speaking, HP should have something under works. We've been speculating for a while, but really no picture has come out to support it.

[crobato]

You probably missed or forgotten this picture which was posted in this thread earlier and in the 052C thread.

Its a pretty good bet its a warship, due to the lines and shape of the side that suggests RCS reduction. But it looks more 052C than 054A. The shipyard is Huangpu.

[tphuang]

You probably missed or forgotten this picture which was posted in this thread earlier and in the 052C thread.

Its a pretty good bet its a warship, due to the lines and shape of the side that suggests RCS reduction. But it looks more 052C than 054A. The shipyard is Huangpu.

no, I remember that one, I'm just saying that one doesn't look like its in the 054 class. Maybe we will see one more like 054A at the new HP shipyard.

[crobato]

As a note, the 054 (original) does have a facet that runs throughout the bow and forecastle like the picture here and the 052B/C series. This facet for some reason was removed on the 054A. Either the ship here is reverting back to the original configuration of the 054, a little unlikely in my opinion but a probability nonetheless, or its a 052C type, more likely for me.

[Gollevainen]

Thread closed as it have more than 1,000 posts!!

Please open a new one.

Gollevainen
Supermoderator

[crobato]

Thread stickied for posterity.