FFG 054/054A Thread

[bd popeye]

This is kind of an interesting picture on Chinese forum. It shows that 054A should have around 6.1m submerged. This is compared to 054's 5.9m submerged (according to the guy who posted). So, there should be at least some increase in displacement.

You guys crack me up. Always measuring this that and the other thing. That does not mean a thing.

All sorts of factors could cause the ship waterline to be diffrent.

1) Greater displacement because of stores, weapons, personnel and more or less equipment aboard.

2) Someone painted the waterline wrong. I've seen this happen.

3) sea state conditions in port could give a false impression of the water line.

4) Somesort of minor modification.

Personally I think it is not that important. What is important is for the PLAN to take these ships an crews to sea and to see and learn how they operate.

[planeman]

Lol, I'm no sailor but Popeye is on the money.

[bd popeye]

Lol, I'm no sailor but Popeye is on the money.

Thank you Planeman.:)

Another factor could be ballast. Simply put, they could be switching water tanks... Or the way the ship is moored to the pier or what ever it is moored to. Sometimes not enough "slack" is put in the mooring lines causing the ship list to what ever side is tied to the pier during the changing of the tide.. There by making it appear the ship is higher in the water than it really is.

Take that picture for what you will. But to me it does not mean a thing....

Just be happy that the PLAN is turning out what appears to be fine FFGs. I hope for the PLAN sake the quality of the construction is high and the PRC government gives the PLAN enough money to operate these ships and properly train the crews.

[Pointblank]

Hey, I just finished a series of edits to the Wikipedia page on the Type 54 frigate, and have placed a notice on the article's talk page requesting a photo of the frigate. Can any of you guys get a free, open-license picture and upload it to Wikipedia then edit the article to include the picture? Thanks.

[tphuang]

well, I think the guy was just saying that the right painted area goes up to 6.1 m for A and 5.9 for baseline, so under some predetermined condition, that's where the waterline goes to.

As for photos, why can't you just upload them yourself? There are many such photos on this thread.

anyway, I'm justing editting this, these are the latest picture, maybe you want to try them?
first 054A in HD
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3962/054ahdfeb25ua5.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8148/054ahdfeb252fs1.jpg
second 054A in HD
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7937/054ahd2feb25ab5.jpg

[Pointblank]

well, I think the guy was just saying that the right painted area goes up to 6.1 m for A and 5.9 for baseline, so under some predetermined condition, that's where the waterline goes to.

As for photos, why can't you just upload them yourself? There are many such photos on this thread.

anyway, I'm justing editting this, these are the latest picture, maybe you want to try them?
first 054A in HD
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3962/054ahdfeb25ua5.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8148/054ahdfeb252fs1.jpg
second 054A in HD
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7937/054ahd2feb25ab5.jpg

Are you the author of these pics? Remember, Wikipedia requires that all pictures uploaded has to be either open source, or have a license.

[tphuang]

These are the pictures of 891 experiment ship from HD in the recent days. Take a look at the sensors shown in the picture. You basically have a huge new type of what looks to be a MFR combined with Orekh styled FCR. Looks like either the new ship (052D) will be equipped with HH-16 and use this big new FCR or this is going on subsequent versions of 054 series. I'd think latter is more likely to happen. It might replace SR-64 or sea eagle.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/305/891newsensormar62rl0.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/734/891newsensormar6vl5.jpg

[Diving Falcon]

Sorry for my stupidity, but I heard that the Type-054A may be equipped with HQ-16/SA-N-12 SAM on its VLS system - is this true? What are the chances of such a Type-054A with VLS-launched SAM - downgraded of course - being offered for export?

[Blitz]

These are the pictures of 891 experiment ship from HD in the recent days. Take a look at the sensors shown in the picture. You basically have a huge new type of what looks to be a MFR combined with Orekh styled FCR. Looks like either the new ship (052D) will be equipped with HH-16 and use this big new FCR or this is going on subsequent versions of 054 series. I'd think latter is more likely to happen. It might replace SR-64 or sea eagle.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/305/891newsensormar62rl0.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/734/891newsensormar6vl5.jpg

Hi, tphuang, do you mean that big white ball will replace sea eagle?it looks too small.
I wonder why MR-90 onboard without VLS?

Do you guys think this square VLS will be able to used for HH-9?

[tphuang]

It looks too small? I actually think it looks a little larger than Sampson.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/images/sampson.jpg
Even if it's smaller, it's not really a problem. I don't think something in 054 series need a radar as powerful as Sampson. But I think it will probably replace SR-64 (which is quite large that I looked at the 054A pictures). SR-64 is quite effective against low altitude targets like sea-skimming AShM and sea target search.

This is a wild guess by me at what they could do:
- This new radar could retain SR-64's low altitude tracking capability + surface search capability. So, it will have to be located at the top of the aftmask like SR-64.
- On top of that, it should play the same as a Sampson or EMPAR. I'm hoping it's dual-faced AESA radar rather than a single faced PESA radar like EMPAR, but the cost for Sampson is obviously a lot higher.
A list of Sampson's functions
* Long and medium-range search
* Surface picture search
* High-speed horizon search
* High-angle search and track
* Multiple target tracking and multiple channel fire control.
So, 3 and 4 are basically old SR-64 tasks. It would have to have be rotating fast enough to provide mid course update to HH-16.
- Sea Eagle search radar's purpose would be for volume search and high altitude search, early warning - same role as Smart-L
- FCRs - be like MK-99 on DDG-51, basically providing terminal guidance and illumination of targets for HH-16. Now, this would allow it to direct a maximum of 8 missiles at terminal phase against 4 separate targets concurrently. While, other missiles could theoretically be in the air, not at the terminal phase and given update commands by the new MFR.

So, basically, this allows for higher tracking, better target sharing amongst ships using the same system, higher resolution, better detection of targets flying at different profile and higher capability against concentrated attack.


I wonder why MR-90 onboard without VLS?

891 already has HH-9 and HH-16 VLS if you looked at previous pictures.

Do you guys think this square VLS will be able to used for HH-9?

sure, remember HH-9 is actively guided, so it would only need mid-course guidance.

Sorry for my stupidity, but I heard that the Type-054A may be equipped with HQ-16/SA-N-12 SAM on its VLS system - is this true? What are the chances of such a Type-054A with VLS-launched SAM - downgraded of course - being offered for export?

true
maybe later.

[Blitz]

I doubt that white ball is a new equipment,since it was at that place onboard 891 for years.

even if that's true it's something new and will replace SR64 that on the top of aftermask,I can't believe it can replace the sea eagle/top plate,though I really hope it's more powerful than SR64 + Sea eagle.

But I dont understand why put MR90s onto 891,since it was very matural and was widely used on 054A,052B etc.it's weird.

[eecsmaster]

system integration. You won't know how the system really performs until you do field tests.

Also, what's SR64?

[Gollevainen]

SR64 is different name to type 364 air/surf search radar

[tphuang]

I doubt that white ball is a new equipment,since it was at that place onboard 891 for years.

even if that's true it's something new and will replace SR64 that on the top of aftermask,I can't believe it can replace the sea eagle/top plate,though I really hope it's more powerful than SR64 + Sea eagle.

But I dont understand why put MR90s onto 891,since it was very matural and was widely used on 054A,052B etc.it's weird.

Are you sure about that part? I know it was on there in December's picture. I looked at the 970 pictures, and it wasn't on there. But then again, I've been hoping for PLAN to develop something like Sampson, so I get over-excited when I see that it might be working with the "orekh like radar".

Now, if Orekh are put there independent of that big bulb radar, then that probably means it's an upgraded and indigenous version of it? China has pretty much cloned and improved every other Russian subsystem that they liked.

[Blitz]

Sorry I'm not sure,but I found pics with it posted earlier 2006.and I heard that the MR90 in 054A was indigenous, not sure for this either,but that onboard 054A do looks a bit different from that on Russia ships.

If for system integration test,how can this system be accepted and equipped befor test?and why not test together with the "top plate"

[tphuang]

Sorry I'm not sure,but I found pics with it posted earlier 2006.and I heard that the MR90 in 054A was indigenous, not sure for this either,but that onboard 054A do looks a bit different from that on Russia ships.

If for system integration test,how can this system be accepted and equipped befor test?and why not test together with the "top plate"
no reason that MR-90 on 054A can't be upgraded further.

As for that radar on 891, it could very well be developed as the basis for a new generation of AESA MFR. As mentionned, SR-64 has shown some good performance (that's why it's on so many PLAN ships), but it's not a powerful MFR capable of tracking many targets at long range like Sampson or APAR. If it was on 891 before MR-90s were installed, it could mean they were just testing out its capability of long distance search, medium range tracking, low altitude search and such. Now, with MR-90, it can test out intercepting targets and such. Or, it could mean that they were testing it with HH-9 or something. A lot of possibilities, we won't know until it appears on a PLAN ship. As for why not test together with top plate, the question is why do they need to? Top plate is just a volume search radar. They can just use the type 360 on 891 right now to do the same function (although probably much less capable). But realistically speaking, a MFR + MR-90 should be able to handle the searching, tracking, guidance + interception of targets all by themselves. Additional VSR just provides the ability to search and track more targets, that's all.

[Blitz]

no reason that MR-90 on 054A can't be upgraded further.

As for that radar on 891, it could very well be developed as the basis for a new generation of AESA MFR. As mentionned, SR-64 has shown some good performance (that's why it's on so many PLAN ships), but it's not a powerful MFR capable of tracking many targets at long range like Sampson or APAR. If it was on 891 before MR-90s were installed, it could mean they were just testing out its capability of long distance search, medium range tracking, low altitude search and such. Now, with MR-90, it can test out intercepting targets and such. Or, it could mean that they were testing it with HH-9 or something. A lot of possibilities, we won't know until it appears on a PLAN ship. As for why not test together with top plate, the question is why do they need to? Top plate is just a volume search radar. They can just use the type 360 on 891 right now to do the same function (although probably much less capable). But realistically speaking, a MFR + MR-90 should be able to handle the searching, tracking, guidance + interception of targets all by themselves. Additional VSR just provides the ability to search and track more targets, that's all.

That sounds a reasonable speculation,if that's true,does it mean the top plate and the SR64 will disappear,and this new one will be put on the top of the frontmask?such a big leap.

[tphuang]

That sounds a reasonable speculation,if that's true,does it mean the top plate and the SR64 will disappear,and this new one will be put on the top of the frontmask?such a big leap.

I don't think the issue is whether they can do it or not, because this new radar isn't that much larger than SR-64, but whether they think the cost justifies having both this new radar and top plate.

[kickars]

I just found out that China will install the newer version of HQ-7 (FM-90) for PN's F-22P. My question is that why didn't China install the latest versin of HQ-7 on their early 054s? Coz FM-90 was introduced in 1998 when China was still building 053s. In fact how do we know HQ-7s on the two early 054s aren't FM-90? Are there any ways to tell the difference between the two versions of HQ-7? (The reason I ask is because the information I can find on 054s and later version of 053H3s all suggest they just use the old FM-80.)

[crobato]

I just found out that China will install the newer version of HQ-7 (FM-90) for PN's F-22P. My question is that why didn't China install the latest versin of HQ-7 on their early 054s? Coz FM-90 was introduced in 1998 when China was still building 053s. In fact how do we know HQ-7s on the two early 054s aren't FM-90? Are there any ways to tell the difference between the two versions of HQ-7? (The reason I ask is because the information I can find on 054s and later version of 053H3s all suggest they just use the old FM-80.)

I think that's exactly what they're trying to do with upgrading the 054s, which have their FCR and missile launchers removed.

[tphuang]

Here is some really strange rumour. Someone mentionned on Chinese forum that a rep from Huangpu shipyard said China is selling 054, sea patrol ship and semi-submersible vessell to Mauritius in exchange for fishing rights in their waters. One of the more bizarre things I've read in a while.


I just found out that China will install the newer version of HQ-7 (FM-90) for PN's F-22P. My question is that why didn't China install the latest versin of HQ-7 on their early 054s? Coz FM-90 was introduced in 1998 when China was still building 053s. In fact how do we know HQ-7s on the two early 054s aren't FM-90? Are there any ways to tell the difference between the two versions of HQ-7? (The reason I ask is because the information I can find on 054s and later version of 053H3s all suggest they just use the old FM-80.)

who told you they are not? After all FM-80/90N are just export versions.

[adeptitus]

Here is some really strange rumour. Someone mentionned on Chinese forum that a rep from Huangpu shipyard said China is selling 054, sea patrol ship and semi-submersible vessell to Mauritius in exchange for fishing rights in their waters. One of the more bizarre things I've read in a while.


I think that claim is way out there. Mauritius doesn't have a military, only a police force with 4x4's and national coast guard service:
http://www.gov.mu/portal/site/police/menuitem.2db325cbfe441242455084e80fb521ca/

Their "flagship" CGS Vigilant is an used off-shore patrol vessel purchased from Chile, refurbished by India.

I don't think they could afford 054's...

[mehdi]

Hey I'm from Mauritius so what's the fuss about my country>???????

Give me the Facts and then I shall tell you what is true or what is false,

Cheers

Mehdi

At least something is happening in here.

[ying1978]

Second 054A from HP:

http://img149.imagevenue.com/loc517/th_20639_20070316_1aaa62fdf768c6fa9a73Uq7r6l7xK30K _122_517lo.jpg (http://img149.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=20639_20070316_1aaa62fdf768c6fa9a73U q7r6l7xK30K_122_517lo.jpg)

[mehdi]

I have to apologize to Sczepan I was a bit angry but due to the effect of the post being deleted I would say that I am relieved now.

I hope he can forgive me I promise won't happen again.

Cheers to Sinodefence.

[tphuang]

Second 054A from HP:

http://img149.imagevenue.com/loc517/th_20639_20070316_1aaa62fdf768c6fa9a73Uq7r6l7xK30K _122_517lo.jpg (http://img149.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=20639_20070316_1aaa62fdf768c6fa9a73U q7r6l7xK30K_122_517lo.jpg)

wow, the second one looks like it should be launched any day now. Nice shot of the bow mounted sonar. I wonder whatever happened to the one under construction on the left.

[Jeff Head]

wow, the second one looks like it should be launched any day now. Nice shot of the bow mounted sonar. I wonder whatever happened to the one under construction on the left.I'm thinking that has to be an older picture. The keel is laid and some buildup on the vessel to the left...but more recent pictures clearly showed a vessel to the left much further along than this one. But those are just my thoughts.

[tphuang]

I'm thinking that has to be an older picture. The keel is laid and some buildup on the vessel to the left...but more recent pictures clearly showed a vessel to the left much further along than this one. But those are just my thoughts.

Interesting, I did take a look back at my photos, it doesn't look like a photo from when the first 054A in HP got launched. But anyhow, here are 3 new photos from the already launched 054A.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4466/054ahpmar17bk9.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/318/054ahpmar172ac8.jpg

[Sczepan]

I have to apologize to Sczepan I was a bit angry but due to the effect of the post being deleted I would say that I am relieved now.

I hope he can forgive me I promise won't happen again.

Cheers to Sinodefence. I am sorry for making you angry

[mehdi]

I am sorry for making you angry

No offense :roll: taken I was just a bit mad about the Hinduism part coz Mauritius has many different cultures and religions. Indian immigrants which count for over 60% of the population are not all Hindus or of one religion.:confused: :confused:

Some come from Madras some come from the North of India and we have quite some different cultures from India.

There's also people from Africa I mean descendants of Slaves, People from Europe and also a small minority of Chinese immigrants who are very important to the economy of Mauritius.

The Chinese here are mainly in business and have over the years built a huge empire from Supermarkets to textiles and are in every sector of the Economy.

We are part of SADC, COMESA, the AU (African Union), Commonwealth, the Francophonie, we have important trade deals with India, China. Europe, the USA.

There are big Chinese companies who are already set up their headquarters in Mauritius to prospect in Africa e.g. Huaweii

http://www.china.org.cn/english/international/81296.htm

[tphuang]

Alright, guys. i have to warn, 40 pictures of 054A from HP are about to show up. These are of showing the 2nd 054A from HP is about to be launched. Of note, the guy who took these photos said that there is definitely a 3rd one according to the people he talked to in the shipyard.

This is photo from the morning of 17th.

[tphuang]

these are from the evening of the 17th, the ship has yet to be launched here.

[tphuang]

more from the same night, not a lot going on, but nice shots. I did not post on imageshack, because it will just take too long to upload 40 photos that way.

[tphuang]

this is from the morning of the 18th, the ship is slowly moving out. Almost like watching a video.

[tphuang]

more from the morning of the 18th, actually, interesting enough, you can see the shots of VLS quite clear with this one, although it's still covered up.

[tphuang]

even better shots of the VLS + main gun and the front of the ship here.

[tphuang]

shots showing all 3 054s together, 526, first 054A and the one about to be launched.

[tphuang]

final photos of 054A from the evening of the 18th. Still hasn't touched water yet.

[tphuang]

two more clear shots of VLS
interestingly enough, they mentionned that the 2nd 054A in HD has already been launched, but no photo has come out yet. So, I'm just waiting right now. By a generous count, they've basically launched 4 054As in 5 months. Quite a rapid pace. Anyhow, still waiting for the 3rd 054A in HP to move in for final assembly and for the launching pictures of the 2nd 054A in HD. We should have them any day now.

Editted, the guy who posted this picture said that the 2nd 054A in HP is suppose to be launched on the eve of 18th, (must have launched already), but he didn't stay long enough for the photos. Anyway, a little more of what he wrote.


从白天在江边听来的消息是今晚（18）涨潮到最高的时候完全下水。也就是九点后的两三个小时，可以说，你们 看到图片时候，HP的三号在水中了。。。。。。可惜没有车回，我拍不到。。。。

今天听到的，
1，15，8亿一条
2，两条两条签的。第三条是一定有的，第四嘛，，，没有说
3，上面有什么弹多少不是重点，关键是跟踪系统，已搞定。
4，HP也要搬家到南沙，因为要造大的

出处是几个大伯，他们在七十年代在HP造了17条潜艇。。。。

from what he heard:
1. He wrote each 054A is 1.58 billion yuan? (or maybe it's 1.5 billion or 800 million, not sure exactly). So, after conversion, that's anywhere from 100 to 200 million USD per ship.
2. the ships are signed in batches of 2s. There is definitely a third under construction, didn't say anything about a 4th.
3. Not important how many missiles are on the ship, but rather the important part is that the tracking system (sensors) are all finalized. Not sure if he is talking about the first 2 or the second batch of 2.
4. Also HP is about to be located to Nansha for expansion reasons.

[bd popeye]

Nice tphuang..very nice! Too bad that fellow does not have some up to date pictures of the Varyag.

Great detail on these pictures. No doubt now that this class is very important to the PLAN.

[swimmerXC]

more from the morning of the 18th, actually, interesting enough, you can see the shots of VLS quite clear with this one, although it's still covered up.

Looks like 526's HQ-7 is also getting an update

[Gollevainen]

Well these new pics still didn't reveal the mystery of the VLS as it had a bloody hat on it:mad: :mad:

....But it's still something. Now we know the width of the VLS complex and it's much narrower than some speculations have given. I still cannot say certain but I'm begining to be quite sure that there's 16 of those hatches. But those hatches are larger than a hatch that would cover only one silo. Recent drawings of the VLS system to be fitted to the newest russian pr. 2235 shows strikingly similar non-square hachts with 2 missiles under each hatchs...And as many reports says the armament for this new chinese ship comes from Russia....well who knows? Maybe there is 32 missiles after all...

[kickars]

two more clear shots of VLS
interestingly enough, they mentionned that the 2nd 054A in HD has already been launched, but no photo has come out yet. So, I'm just waiting right now. By a generous count, they've basically launched 4 054As in 5 months. Quite a rapid pace. Anyhow, still waiting for the 3rd 054A in HP to move in for final assembly and for the launching pictures of the 2nd 054A in HD. We should have them any day now.

Editted, the guy who posted this picture said that the 2nd 054A in HP is suppose to be launched on the eve of 18th, (must have launched already), but he didn't stay long enough for the photos. Anyway, a little more of what he wrote.


from what he heard:
1. He wrote each 054A is 1.58 billion yuan? (or maybe it's 1.5 billion or 800 million, not sure exactly). So, after conversion, that's anywhere from 100 to 200 million USD per ship.
2. the ships are signed in batches of 2s. There is definitely a third under construction, didn't say anything about a 4th.
3. Not important how many missiles are on the ship, but rather the important part is that the tracking system (sensors) are all finalized. Not sure if he is talking about the first 2 or the second batch of 2.
4. Also HP is about to be located to Nansha for expansion reasons.

Actually, the last point should translate to HP is about to be relocated Nansha. Because there'll be a larger ship to be built. Now, I wonder what kind of larger ship was he talking about?:D

[planeman]

I'm still hoping for a speedy resolution to the SAM and SSM mysteries of the Type-054a. I'm still betting 8 x YJ-83 as per the Type-054 but time will tell.

[Diving Falcon]

So will there be other variants of the Type-054A, i.e those with better ASW or new-generation radars, electronics and sensors, etc? Or will the PLAN stick with the Type-054A to make up the significant portion of its frigate fleet?

[FugitiveVisions]

Well these new pics still didn't reveal the mystery of the VLS as it had a bloody hat on it:mad: :mad:

....But it's still something. Now we know the width of the VLS complex and it's much narrower than some speculations have given. I still cannot say certain but I'm begining to be quite sure that there's 16 of those hatches. But those hatches are larger than a hatch that would cover only one silo. Recent drawings of the VLS system to be fitted to the newest russian pr. 2235 shows strikingly similar non-square hachts with 2 missiles under each hatchs...And as many reports says the armament for this new chinese ship comes from Russia....well who knows? Maybe there is 32 missiles after all...

Actually a lot of the old pictures gave a pretty good idea of the width of the VLS complex, that it stretches across the flat part of the bridge. Now that we have a chance to look at the complex from the front, the VLS complex looks much wider than it did from the side, too wide to accomodate only two hatches.

[tphuang]

I'm still hoping for a speedy resolution to the SAM and SSM mysteries of the Type-054a. I'm still betting 8 x YJ-83 as per the Type-054 but time will tell.
yeah, i think that will be the case.

Actually a lot of the old pictures gave a pretty good idea of the width of the VLS complex, that it stretches across the flat part of the bridge. Now that we have a chance to look at the complex from the front, the VLS complex looks much wider than it did from the side, too wide to accomodate only two hatches.

the previous pictures + what the people that posted these pictures said is pretty convincing for me, but more revealing pictures help remove doubt :) -> more pictures will come out.

So will there be other variants of the Type-054A, i.e those with better ASW or new-generation radars, electronics and sensors, etc? Or will the PLAN stick with the Type-054A to make up the significant portion of its frigate fleet?

hard to say with sonar. I asked gf0021-aust about VDS a while back, he said that it could be impossible to tell whether a ship has VDS or not, because the ship could be using some kind of a conformal VDS. As for newer generation radar, my prediction is that the new radar on 891 getting tested with the FCRs are going on 054A, although this newly launched one is still using SR-64. Basically, I think each new batch of 2 054As will have changes compared to the previous.

Actually, the last point should translate to HP is about to be relocated Nansha. Because there'll be a larger ship to be built. Now, I wonder what kind of larger ship was he talking about?

yes I saw that, but that also means expanding the shipyard, allowing it move up the hierarchy so to speak. Even 054A is getting too big for the building hall.

[crobato]

The Varyag does not have the same fascination to local Chinese military enthusiasts as the 054A does, which is currently the star of the show until some new ship/plane/tank comes along. So understandably, posting pics of the 054A gets a bigger emo value than the Varyag, who on the other hand, seems something more interesting to outside Westerners looking in.

Is the photographer for real? He can be stretching his neck out on this.

[tphuang]

The Varyag does not have the same fascination to local Chinese military enthusiasts as the 054A does, which is currently the star of the show until some new ship/plane/tank comes along. So understandably, posting pics of the 054A gets a bigger emo value than the Varyag, who on the other hand, seems something more interesting to outside Westerners looking in.

Is the photographer for real? He can be stretching his neck out on this.
see, I'm suspecting this guy has some kind of PLA connection and this is like an official leak kind of things. It's mind boggling the number of high quality shots he was allowed to take. He did take down several photos later on and asked others to do so too, but they were pretty similar to the photos that were kept there.

[crobato]

The VLS looks like there are two sets, with two rows each, for four rows. Does not look like the hatches are big, and the missiles may be fairly small.

[adeptitus]

from what he heard:
1. He wrote each 054A is 1.58 billion yuan? (or maybe it's 1.5 billion or 800 million, not sure exactly). So, after conversion, that's anywhere from 100 to 200 million USD per ship.

Someone please check this math for me:

In 1990 the PRC sold 4 x 053's to Thailand for approx. 2 billion baht each. The exchange rare back then was 25 baht : 1 USD. So the unit cost was approx. $80 million USD per ship.

The F-22P export Frigate to Pakistan was reported at $120 million USD each.

I don't know what it costs for the PLAN to acquire the 054A's, since information on stuff like R&D cost is not public. But it's prolly not unreasonable to assume a "market value" of $200 million USD each for these ships.

That's still a lot cheaper than what Taiwan paid for La Fayette FFG's without weapons from France. If you subtract the $500-600 million "padding" bribe the unit cost was still over $300 USD million each.

[fishhead]

Someone please check this math for me:

In 1990 the PRC sold 4 x 053's to Thailand for approx. 2 billion baht each. The exchange rare back then was 25 baht : 1 USD. So the unit cost was approx. $80 million USD per ship.

The F-22P export Frigate to Pakistan was reported at $120 million USD each.

I don't know what it costs for the PLAN to acquire the 054A's, since information on stuff like R&D cost is not public. But it's prolly not unreasonable to assume a "market value" of $200 million USD each for these ships.

That's still a lot cheaper than what Taiwan paid for La Fayette FFG's without weapons from France. If you subtract the $500-600 million "padding" bribe the unit cost was still over $300 USD million each.

Way lower than that. You can check each shipyard's sale value per year, which is the public data.

Chengdu CAC's total sale value is around 10 billion RMB, just a little over 1 billion USD.

[Gollevainen]

The VLS issue remains unclear untill we can see pics of this new agle without the roof atop the complex.

What comes to the VDS, I seriosly doupt that there's any conformal VDS. China hasen't shown progress required for that level in sonar-field. They have yet to field even the previous level indegenious VDS system so I think its bit far-fecthed to assume such. ASW remains the achilles heel of PLAN. But as there clearly has been great improvement of in the other tradditionally weak sector (air-defence) I pretty sure that development in that area will emerge. You just have to give them time. China is (unlike so of our most nationalistic kids might think) still bound to all the limitations as rest of us mortals and no one can raise form the derelight state in which the PLAN had dwellt in the pre-1990 era....

[tphuang]

cost -> Chinese builds things cheaper is one reason and the second reason is that they have extremely high margin for exports.

VDS -> As I mentionned, the stuff is developed. Even TLAS is developed. They have VDS on numerous ships. So, it's a matter of cost + doctrine.

Anyhow, new pictures of the launched ships. Note, the newly launched one is the one beside 526 I think. You can see a couple of 022s and the original 054A is the one by itself.

[tphuang]

supposedly, this is to show part of the 3rd 054A is still under construction, they haven't started the assemble yet. Also, according to the guy who took the pictures, who asked the shipyard workers, the engine is supposedly indigenous now.

[Kilo636]

If the picture really shows a third 054A being construsted,It will be a breakthru for PLAN modern warship construction. Cos they never gone beyond being more than 2 of the same kind. We can more or else comfirm,it will go into mass production... :china:

[oringo]

supposedly, this is to show part of the 3rd 054A is still under construction, they haven't started the assemble yet. Also, according to the guy who took the pictures, who asked the shipyard workers, the engine is supposedly indigenous now.

It's a little dark inside, but is there another 022 on the left?

[Jeff Head]

If the picture really shows a third 054A being construsted,It will be a breakthru for PLAN modern warship construction. Cos they never gone beyond being more than 2 of the same kind. We can more or else comfirm,it will go into mass production... :china:Well, they built two here at HP and now it looks like a third. But do not forget, they also built one over at HD and are working on the 2nd there too as I understand. That means five altogether in 6-8 months time.

You can see the next Type 054A on the right in these pictures, with the Sonar dome on the bow. It's dark in there, but, particularly in the 2nd picture, it can fairly easily be made out.

I'd say they are going to mass produce these, probably well over 20 of them before it is all said and done. But we shall see...time will tell. Very nice lines, very fine looking frigate.

[Sczepan]

If the picture really shows a third 054A being construsted,It will be a breakthru for PLAN modern warship construction. Cos they never gone beyond being more than 2 of the same kind. We can more or else comfirm,it will go into mass production... :china:
I think, the PLAN is satisfied with this type, so they order a "mass" production (let's say: they 'll order some more of them)

to build 2 of the same kind sounds like testing a new design and decide for new developings, derivate or - at least - order some more ...

[tphuang]

I will start off with a picture that shows 054A #3 in HP is well under way and 022 is also under construction. Same photo, but a little more clear with the circles pointing them out.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9323/hp054aassemblemar193yk0.jpg
The second 054A at HD, I actually don't see much progress from the last time I posted them. I'm quite surprised here.
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/9250/054ahd2mar19hh8.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4088/054ahd2mar192ia5.jpg
The 1st 054A + LPD
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3130/054ahdmar19jy7.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6425/071mar19ha2.jpg

[RavenWing278]

im no expert in ship-building but how come the 054A's at HP are built indoors with less scaffolding and the one at HD is out side and loaded with scaffolding?

[bd popeye]

im no expert in ship-building but how come the 054A's at HP are built indoors with less scaffolding and the one at HD is out side and loaded with scaffolding?

The ships are simply in diffrent stages of construction. all that scafolding means is the ship is being painted. Or the hull finished in some manner. They maybe doing a final inspection of the welds on the hull.

[panzerkom]

If the picture really shows a third 054A being construsted,It will be a breakthru for PLAN modern warship construction. Cos they never gone beyond being more than 2 of the same kind. We can more or else comfirm,it will go into mass production... :china:

These are frigates that's gonna replace the Jianghu, I think that's why.

As a side note, no raised platform for the HQ-7. -- Is it confirmed that it'll have VLS? If so, any educated guess on which type?

[joshuatree]

These are frigates that's gonna replace the Jianghu, I think that's why.

As a side note, no raised platform for the HQ-7. -- Is it confirmed that it'll have VLS? If so, any educated guess on which type?


Do you think the 054s will replace all the Jianghus (I-V)? That's about 30+ ships. Would it be a 1:1 replacement? That would be a serious upgrade for PLAN. Then, do you think all the Jianghus will find a second life in the Coast Guard?

[panzerkom]

Probably not a 1-to-1 ratio since the Jiangkai is much more capable. It's probably gonna take at least a decade for all the Jinghus to be phased out, it took the USN longer than that to get rid of its Spruance class after the first Arleigh Burke class was commissioned.

And I wouldn't be surprised to see 054Bs and 054Cs with the same basic hull design but different weapons systems either.

[joshuatree]

It may be possible that it would be a 1:1 replacement. Of course that would mean increasing and expanding the capabilities of PLAN but that's no surprise, it's their number one goal. I think you are right, we'll probably see newer and newer variations of the 054s as they get built out.

[kickars]

As a side note, no raised platform for the HQ-7. -- Is it confirmed that it'll have VLS? If so, any educated guess on which type?

Do you mean 054 or 054A. If it's 054 you are talking about, then I'd like to know are they just gonna upgrade the HQ-7 to HQ-7A, or they will fit a completely different system.

[Gollevainen]

No, he is talking about the 054A. Well those who haven't followed the class's birth, yeas there is a VLS with HHQ-16 SAM a chinese derivation of the russian Shtill missile. The depate is more down exactly how many missiles are onboard as the views of the uncovered VLS console has been too hazy and controversial to make solid determition.

[panzerkom]

No, he is talking about the 054A. Well those who haven't followed the class's birth, yeas there is a VLS with HHQ-16 SAM a chinese derivation of the russian Shtill missile. The depate is more down exactly how many missiles are onboard as the views of the uncovered VLS console has been too hazy and controversial to make solid determition.

Ah, thank you, Gollevainen.

[maozedong]

I saw 054A pic, 1st and 2nd ship are different, these two older 054A(#525,#526) epuiped with HQ-7 missile, and the hull is different.
sources from internet that China total has 3 of 054A just left shipyard into water from oct,last year, the 4th 054A still in ship yard, from the photo the hull almost done, and the 5th 054A just started to build. plus #525,#526,suppose to be 5 of 054A already into water?
from the latest photos that show new vision of 054A, the hull is improved, and VSL installed at frond of the ship.
this is the photo shows VSL:
http://maozedong.250free.com/054A.jpg

[tphuang]

I saw 054A pic, 1st and 2nd ship are different, these two older 054A(#525,#526) epuiped with HQ-7 missile, and the hull is different.
sources from internet that China total has 3 of 054A just left shipyard into water from oct,last year, the 4th 054A still in ship yard, from the photo the hull almost done, and the 5th 054A just started to build. plus #525,#526,suppose to be 5 of 054A already into water?
from the latest photos that show new vision of 054A, the hull is improved, and VSL installed at frond of the ship.
this is the photo shows VSL:
http://maozedong.250free.com/054A.jpg
Mao, please check out the pages before this and note that this picture has already been posted in this thread, no need to do it again.

[Jeff Head]

note that this picture has already been posted in this threadtphuang, in case it doesn't get said...thanks for all your hard work overall on the forum, and particularly on this thread for all of the GREAT pics of the Type 054A.

Those are beautiful vessels, with fine lines and what looks to be a very strong armament fitting. Based on your photos I would say that it is clear that the vessels are in serial production, but that will be confirmed in full by time and more pics of more batches being built in these yards.

But to have put out as many as they have in the short time frame we have witnessed tells me that they are going to keep doing that for a while. They have the system down and are cranking them out phenominally fast.

[adeptitus]

Do you think the 054s will replace all the Jianghus (I-V)? That's about 30+ ships. Would it be a 1:1 replacement? That would be a serious upgrade for PLAN. Then, do you think all the Jianghus will find a second life in the Coast Guard?

It's too early to say exactly how many 054's will be build in serial production. For example the Jiangwei class FFG was stopped after 14 ships built.

I think some Jianghu-class FFG's will be given to the Coast Guard, but not all of them. Some will prolly end up being sold at "friendship price" to South Asian or African countries.

[tphuang]

tphuang, in case it doesn't get said...thanks for all your hard work overall on the forum, and particularly on this thread for all of the GREAT pics of the Type 054A.

Those are beautiful vessels, with fine lines and what looks to be a very strong armament fitting. Based on your photos I would say that it is clear that the vessels are in serial production, but that will be confirmed in full by time and more pics of more batches being built in these yards.

But to have put out as many as they have in the short time frame we have witnessed tells me that they are going to keep doing that for a while. They have the system down and are cranking them out phenominally fast.
Thanks, I'm actually surprised by how many pictures are coming out these days.

Maybe we will see more photos of Varyag coming out when it gets closer to be launched?

[aikea]

New VLS of 054A?

http://eyz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2007_3_21_74955_5074955.jpg

http://eyz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2007_3_21_75098_5075098.jpg

The first one looks a bit odd. Chinese VLS used to be like this one:

http://eyz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/U1335P27T1D429760F3DT20070202100120.jpg

Like a silo.

[Blitz]

can't tell difference of VLS on two ship from these pictures. and I dont think there will be some difference.

I just wonder how many hh-9 can 052C carry if it is used this new VLS on 054A?

[maozedong]

can't tell difference of VLS on two ship from these pictures. and I dont think there will be some difference.

I just wonder how many hh-9 can 052C carry if it is used this new VLS on 054A?

052C VLS with cold launch only carry 48 HH-9, about 054A, the first photo is good pic,we can see the launch well, but still not sure.
usely the round launch well is cold launch, square launch well is hot launch, this new 054A....

[scorpioking]

32 units on the front

[Gollevainen]

there is only single type of VSLs onboard 054A, in the other picture the one is covered by canavas, and there isent any relation to the HQ-9 launcher onboard 052C, its completely different and for different missile....

to how many, we dont know...there 16 hatches of some sort, but they arent square, but odd rectancular in shape and migth (or as well as Not) house two missiles under one hatch...that sort of conficuration would make the allready similar looking new VSL of Russian Sergei Gorshkov into new ligth as it seems to have similar fit also....

[bd popeye]

32 units on the front

Are we going to get into the how many missiles the VLS cell carriers again? I hope not. C'mon PLAN fans.:china: Just rejoice that the PLAN is building World Class FFG's in quanity and probally quality!..The numbers and satitics will be revealed soon enough.

[Mashan]

Absolutely, now it seems to be in serial production. 6 seem to have been completed or near completion. Rejoice.:nana:

[Blitz]

the VLS is square and 32 unit,sure enough.it is obviously shown in early pics.
I think the PLAN is making efforts to make it to compatible with HH-9.

[antiterror13]

I believe it will have 32 units VLS, PLAN is not stupid enough to build new frigate with only 16 units VLS.

is the VLS system on 054A from indigenous system or from Russia ?

btw, this 054A is way bigger and heavier than Singaporean RSS Formidable or French La Fayette. which one is more modern and have more fire power ?

[Gollevainen]

the VLS is square and 32 unit,sure enough.it is obviously shown in early pics.
I think the PLAN is making efforts to make it to compatible with HH-9.

It isent square, and that Pretty obvious to look from many pictures.....But the recantulal shape of it is the strong advocate of 32 missiles....in square, one could ecxept 64 missiles wich is in otherhand too much for the size of the unit....

And what comes to the missiles they most propaply are HQ-16/SA-N-12 family, not HQ-9 as the main radar fit and expecially the illuminators indicate....Lot will be known when the Russian Sergei Gorskov completes, as some sources have shown similar VSL module as in 054A...

[adeptitus]

I believe it will have 32 units VLS, PLAN is not stupid enough to build new frigate with only 16 units VLS.

is the VLS system on 054A from indigenous system or from Russia ?

btw, this 054A is way bigger and heavier than Singaporean RSS Formidable or French La Fayette. which one is more modern and have more fire power ?

You can compare to the RSS Formidable weapon systems here:
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/weapons/frigate/combatsystems.asp

The Singapore frigate is equipped with modern European sensors and technology, plus TAS system for ASW warfare. It's a better "multipurpose" ship than the 054A, which is more of a "General Purpose" frigate.

In terms of firepower, both the YJ-83 and Harpoon SSM have similar range, but I think the Harpoon SSM has a heavier warhead. Though, if you look at how ships are build these days, I doubt most frigates would survive a direct hit from either missile without being mission-killed.

[tphuang]

latest action from HP shipyard. Note, from previous pictures, I'm pretty sure the one next to 526 is the 2nd 054A and the one away is the 1st.
You can see some type 22s there too.

[tphuang]

Third 054A is now getting blocked by this, how convenient. Probably won't get a new picture of this for the next 2 months now.:mad:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7852/hpblock054asp4.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9646/hpblock054a2dj7.jpg

Back to my favourite topic of PLAN with this new mysterious radar with Orekh
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9440/891newsensormar26hy3.jpg
apparently, the test trial is about to start

btw, I've been looking at 071, does anyone know what the big sphere is for?
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6370/071dec23middlecf9.jpg

Also doing a little thinking, I came up with a little theory on the highlighted sensor
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4282/054ahpforemast2ma6.jpg
It is where type 344 used to be on 054. And it seems like 344 is not anywhere on the ship. It leads me to believe that this must be the new FCR for AK-176m. At the same time, you might have noticed that there is a sensor always with green cover on in a similar position on 071, I suspect it's also the same FCR.

As for Formidable vs 054A, had many debates with the same person on this.
For a little summary, in Formidable's advantage:
- clear advantage in stealthiness
- having an advanced towed array sonar
- generally, having better ASW package
- equipped with a better helicopter (seahawk vs helix)
- Oto Melara 76mm is a better gun in terms of the rounds used
- Herakles is an advanced MFR that 054A doesn't have
- Aster 15 being active guided meaning more targets can be engaged than HH-16
- Aster 15 is most likely a superior missile to HH-16
- Harpoon probably has better ECM and targetting than YJ-83

054A's advantage,
- larger size, uses more powerful diesel engine
- has bow mounted sonar -> unclear on whether it has VDS or not
- likely operating in an environment with numerous aerial asset, so ka-28's inability to provide OTH targetting with not be a problem
- has bandstand + lightbulb for OTH targetting/datalink
- AK-176m has faster rate of fire
- Has two Type 730 CIWS, easily evening out the # of targets engaged
- has SR-64 which is a dedicated radar is very effective at tracking low altitude, subsonic to high supersonic AShM + dedicated VSR in Sea Eagle
- Even though SARH, having illuminators means greater resistance to ECM
- YJ-83 is supersonic in terminal stage and also has longer range

both have pros and cons. A lot of things are dependent on your preference, really.

[crobato]

HH-16 is likely to outrange Aster 15, if HH-16 is close to Shtil 1. That's 50km vs. 30km against aircraft. Chances are good that the HH-16 may even outrange Shtil 1, because the size of the illuminators is bigger than the Orekhs, suggesting greater power for more illumination range.

[tphuang]

yeah, I forgot the range part, I'm pretty sure HH-16 goes further too.

pictures from Hudong, the 2nd ones progress is still disappointingly slow. Other than that, first 054A seems to still have plenty of work being done on it.

[Kilo636]

yeah, I forgot the range part, I'm pretty sure HH-16 goes further too.

pictures from Hudong, the 2nd ones progress is still disappointingly slow. Other than that, first 054A seems to still have plenty of work being done on it.

Maybe the PLAＮ wants to put the first 054A into sea trial first to identify any defect so that they can correct it on 2nd 054A. That is why 1st 054A progress is so fast while 2nd 054A is so slow... But PLAN at the same time don want slow down production of 054A and allow 2nd 054A to be constructed while 1st 054A still awaiting sea trial.

They may be confident of the structure and design of 054A but still not sure of the sensor and sytem onboard it! Therefore the sucess of 1st 054A is very critical.....

[szbd]

Maybe the PLAＮ wants to put the first 054A into sea trial first to identify any defect so that they can correct it on 2nd 054A. That is why 1st 054A progress is so fast while 2nd 054A is so slow... But PLAN at the same time don want progression of production of 054A to be so slow and allow 2nd 054A to be constructed. They may be confident of the structure and design of 054A but still not sure of the sensor and sytem onboard it! Therefore the sucess of 1st 054A is very critical.....

One thing is, if a ship is constructed in Huangpu shipyard, that means the ship is very mature already. And I don't think the 2nd is waiting for the 1st to finish testing, because if so the second won't be launched. Most of the systems were tested on 891 experimental ship, just that on 891 the hot VLS doesn't have that many units but I don't think that's a problem.

[joshuatree]

Slightly off topic but the question stems from the production of the 054As. Which shipyard is considered more advanced or mature? Huangpu or Hudong?

[Kilo636]

One thing is, if a ship is constructed in Huangpu shipyard, that means the ship is very mature already. And I don't think the 2nd is waiting for the 1st to finish testing, because if so the second won't be launched. Most of the systems were tested on 891 experimental ship, just that on 891 the hot VLS doesn't have that many units but I don't think that's a problem.

A sub(parts by parts) system testing on 891 can never be compare to a full intergrated and real sea splash testing of a fully complete 054A together with the propulsion system...

Take note... 2nd 054 has not install with many system yet. More or less looks like a skeleton ship... I believe PLAN might be very caution on 054A construction.

[adeptitus]

Third 054A is now getting blocked by this, how convenient. Probably won't get a new picture of this for the next 2 months now.:mad:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7852/hpblock054asp4.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9646/hpblock054a2dj7.jpg


@_@ What in the wrold is that?? A floating restaurant barge??

[joshuatree]

@_@ What in the wrold is that?? A floating restaurant barge??

It reminds me of the floating Jumbo Restaurant in Hong Kong. There used to be a smaller one in Hawaii many years ago too.

[guitarjeff]

Take note... 2nd 054 has not install with many system yet. More or less looks like a skeleton ship... I believe PLAN might be very caution on 054A construction.

How about a simpler explanation: Hudong is running out of manpower. The LPD is a large ship. Outfitting both the LPD and the first 054A at the same time leaves fewer available hands to work on the second hull. Shipbuilding is not crop harvesting. One cannot hire a bunch of temps off of the street and put welding torches in their hands and expect them to do the work.

[tphuang]

How about a simpler explanation: Hudong is running out of manpower. The LPD is a large ship. Outfitting both the LPD and the first 054A at the same time leaves fewer available hands to work on the second hull. Shipbuilding is not crop harvesting. One cannot hire a bunch of temps off of the street and put welding torches in their hands and expect them to do the work.

well I'm questioning this because they got to this stage in early February from what I can see, and they haven't moved since. The building speed up to that point was like lightning.


Take note... 2nd 054 has not install with many system yet. More or less looks like a skeleton ship... I believe PLAN might be very caution on 054A construction.

your argument doesn't work at all, they haven't stopped and slowed down building it in Huangpu.


Slightly off topic but the question stems from the production of the 054As. Which shipyard is considered more advanced or mature? Huangpu or Hudong?

In terms of technology level, I would always pick a shipyard from Shanghai (HD) ahead of other parts of China. HP is only capable of building type 22s and 054As. HD can also build experiment ships, LPDs, LSTs, MCMs and such.

[szbd]

The main shipyards for large surface warship building were Jiangnan, Dalian, Hudong, Zhonghua and Huangpu being the kid brother. Qiuxin and Guangzhou don't constantly produce large warships. Huangpu was a repair yard in 1950s. Then their production lines for warship were setup by people from Jiangnan and Dalian. They only assemble the parts of small boats produced by Dalian and Shanghai until 1970s. Hudong was founded by British in 1928. Now they are merged with Zhonghua, called Hudong Zhonghua shipyard. Currently, this is the largest shipyard in China. Hudong and Zhonghua achieved several important No1s in Chinese ship building history, while Huangpu had none. Hudong is the No.1 in frigate production, it produced most of the jianghu and jiangwei (or all jiangwei).

well I'm questioning this because they got to this stage in early February from what I can see, and they haven't moved since. The building speed up to that point was like lightning.


your argument doesn't work at all, they haven't stopped and slowed down building it in Huangpu.


In terms of technology level, I would always pick a shipyard from Shanghai (HD) ahead of other parts of China. HP is only capable of building type 22s and 054As. HD can also build experiment ships, LPDs, LSTs, MCMs and such.

I think 022 are built in Guangzhou shipyard?

[challenge]

there's report few week ago, that next batch of 054 will carry APAR type radar,but it is not known if the radar will PESA or AESA?

[adeptitus]

there's report few week ago, that next batch of 054 will carry APAR type radar,but it is not known if the radar will PESA or AESA?

Could you provide the source of this report? I haven't seen/heard of it, but it seems unlikely to me. If the 054A has entered batch production with Russian sensors, I don't think they're going to scrap the design and put all new APAR radar suite on it this soon.

[tphuang]

Could you provide the source of this report? I haven't seen/heard of it, but it seems unlikely to me. If the 054A has entered batch production with Russian sensors, I don't think they're going to scrap the design and put all new APAR radar suite on it this soon.
They are constantly upgrading it I guess?
well, take a look at the recent tests they are doing on 891. Note, the first 3 pictures should be showing the new radar that they are testing with the FCRs and the last 2 are the new mast they are putting on it.

So, there are some interesting question we have on these photos:
1. Are they putting Sea Eagle on the aft-mast? It will be only logical to test Sea Eagle with the new radar at the same time.
2. If they are putting the new radar on the bridge, does that mean it will also be going on the bridge on the 054A successors? Not sure if they will have space to fit that. If they are, then we are basically going to have SR-64, Sea Eagle, the new radar + FCRs, definitely a lot of radars. Questions like the cost, radar interference, weight, RCS come in. But of course, you get redunduncy, improved performance against different threats for sure.
3. What is exactly in the new radar? Are we looking at a double faced APAR like Sampson or a single faced radar like EMPAR? What rotating system are they using and how good is its 360 degree coverage?

[challenge]

Could you provide the source of this report? I haven't seen/heard of it, but it seems unlikely to me. If the 054A has entered batch production with Russian sensors, I don't think they're going to scrap the design and put all new APAR radar suite on it this soon.

the origianl message was posted in www.wforum.com/wmf last week,the messaage was brief.claiming the next batch will carry PAR similiar to 171.according to him the radar will (maybe) carry scale down version 171 radar.

[challenge]

there are too many rumor these day,but surely PLAN also pay attention to trend toward AESA,and inherit limitation of conventional rotating mechanical antenna such sea eagle,giving the new emerging threat such as stealth missile and aircraft,naval AESA was must.

[tphuang]

there are some new pictures for 054A coming out of HP 2 days ago, but they looked pretty similar to these ones, so I will just post this. Not much has changed to be honest.

[tphuang]

Similar to the 071 thread, there are a billion photos taken from HD, so I'm just going to post a selection of them

[joshuatree]

I know ships accrue wear and tear but that closeup pic of the hangar area is horrendous. The side looks majorly scratched up and the ship has yet to go into service.

[zyun8288]

I know ships accrue wear and tear but that closeup pic of the hangar area is horrendous. The side looks majorly scratched up and the ship has yet to go into service.

:coffee: When you are eating your steak in a resturant, you'd better try not to figure out how your steak was cut out

[joshuatree]

:coffee: When you are eating your steak in a resturant, you'd better try not to figure out how your steak was cut out

And how does that justify damage to a ship that has yet to be delivered to the final customer? If that's how you see things, I've got a "brand new" car to sell to you. ;)

[Totoro]

actually, those black marks on the side don't look like deep scratches at all, at least to me. I'd say they're all just smeared off rubber from the tyres. Nothing that can't be cleaned in a day's work.

[zyun8288]

And how does that justify damage to a ship that has yet to be delivered to the final customer? If that's how you see things, I've got a "brand new" car to sell to you. ;)

:) If you find enough photoes of how ships are built at ALL stages, you will not be so surprised. Just search some old photoes of 052C and 052B. Quite a few people asked the same question during that time.

Like all products, before its final delivery, it will be polished up. Don't worry, even the first ship of LCS will be delivered like a goddess.

[joshuatree]

actually, those black marks on the side don't look like deep scratches at all, at least to me. I'd say they're all just smeared off rubber from the tyres. Nothing that can't be cleaned in a day's work.

No, they don't look like deep scratches at all and no doubt easily fixable. But I just wonder what is going on with the build process that would cause this problem already? To the best of my knowledge, this ship hasn't even gone out to sea. Maybe they should stop using tires and something a little more stain-free if that is the case.


:) If you find enough photoes of how ships are built at ALL stages, you will not be so surprised. Just search some old photoes of 052C and 052B. Quite a few people asked the same question during that time.

Like all products, before its final delivery, it will be polished up. Don't worry, even the first ship of LCS will be delivered like a goddess.

I'm not really buying that all ships being built in all stages will encounter this problem. You don't see a scratched up or stained car on the assembly line, you don't see a new Airbus or Boeing all scratched up or stained. Yes, you are right that it will/can be polished up for delivery. But as I mentioned above, considering that the ship has not even gone out to sea, I find the production process/procedure lacking in refinement if you're already scratching up/staining your new product being built. Regarding the old photos of 052C and 052B, were they also taken before the boats ever went out to sea? I understand if a ship has been out a few times, maybe during practices, exercises, those are all understandable. But if this is happening before the boats ever even stretch their legs, what is up with that?

[zyun8288]

I am not saying all ships have got exactly the same "problem". In fact I guess other shipyard's tug boats are cleaner than HD's so that new ships are not "sealed with kisses" so noticebaly.

What I wanted to say was, most, if not all manufacturers, don't always keep their product in a showroom level apearance during the whole construction period. A product may get dirty for millions of reasons. But before the final delivery, it will be polished up.

In 054's case, during the outfitting period, it will be pushed by tug boats multiple times, other special vessels will port alongside her to lift some equipments, etc...

If you check some old 052B 168's photoes, you will find it in a much miserable state at one stage. It just looked like a rusted second hand ship.

Not only that, even shit(real problem) happens. Just count how many ships caught fires during their constructions. But still, they all look great when joining services.

[tphuang]

I've been waiting for this for a while now, but it appears that 2nd 054A in HD is finally about to be launched, although SR-64 and top plate have yet to be installed.

[tphuang]

more from the guy that posted this. Here is a set of the first of pictures from the first 054A in HD.

[tphuang]

More photos of the 2nd 054A at HD and 891. Not much changed on 891 since we last saw it. I guess they are going to be testing it for a while now.

[tphuang]

photos from HD again of the first launched 054A. It appears that this 054A is about to go for sea trial.

[tphuang]

alright, still without sea eagle, but the second 054A at HD is finally launched, here are some of the pictures on it.

[bd popeye]

tphuang, Thanks for your pics and post about the type 054. Great info.

With your great insight of the PLAN new construction do you have any idea how many 054's the PLAN will produce? I know the PLAN does not make multi-copies of the same class..but..maybe this type 054 will be the start.

[guitarjeff]

alright, still without sea eagle, but the second 054A at HD is finally launched, here are some of the pictures on it.

Thanks for the pics.

It's just too bad the VLS at the B position is covered up. Oh well.

BTW, whatever happened to those frigates that Hudong was supposed to be building for the Pakistanis?

[tphuang]

tphuang, Thanks for your pics and post about the type 054. Great info.

With your great insight of the PLAN new construction do you have any idea how many 054's the PLAN will produce? I know the PLAN does not make multi-copies of the same class..but..maybe this type 054 will be the start.

Hey Bd,

I think you might see around 20 to 25 units of 054 series from what I gathered on Chinese forums to replace the old Jianghu. At max, you might get OHP number of units. Also, I think you will see minor variation as the time goes. The most visible changes are probably going to be seeing new sensors on the ship. I think for all the excitements over this class, there are some serious flaws (feel free to correct me):
1. It's using diesel engines - not exactly ideal if you want to make it larger to be able to equip more stuff. Also, the other problem is that it's simply not as quiet as gas turbines.
2. Weak ASW - while it's AAW and ASuW is more than sufficient at the moment, it should have more ASW equipment as a future escort. Outside of the noise issue, we haven't seen any VDS or TAS (although I have speculated conformal VDS before)
3. hull - while it is the most stealthy hull in PLAN, I think in probably 5 to 10 years when it's been mass produced, there will be far stealthier hulls out there. And on top of that, I'm not a shipbuilding expert, but I really question how much more armament you can fit on this hull (don't think it can be stretched much more).

[tphuang]

Just some more photos, any idea on this picture from HD? another 054?
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6343/fromhdmay22qa0.jpg

Anyhow, more pictures from today.
This is the first one in the front and the newly launched one in the back
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2428/054ahd054ahd2may22wf6.jpg
more shots from today
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8968/054ahd2may226lr2.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6853/054ahd2may227tt6.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1006/054ahd2may228kq5.jpg

[szbd]

alright, still without sea eagle, but the second 054A at HD is finally launched, here are some of the pictures on it.

When the ship is being launched, it will have a big shock when going into the water. Therefore you don't install all your fragile equipment on the ship before it being launched. But ship is much more stable on the slipway than in water, so you want to install as many equipment as possible before the ship being launched. You need to have a very mature design, very strong hull and very accurate calculation and control in launching. The 054A only lack of see eagle now, so it's already a very big achievement, a big sign of mass production. The DDG51 barely had anything installed on mast when launching.

HP shipyard is shallow and narrow, so they always use float dock to launch ships, and therefore avoids the shock. So the 054A in HP had sea eagle installed when launching.

[szbd]

Thanks for the pics.

BTW, whatever happened to those frigates that Hudong was supposed to be building for the Pakistanis?

It's said at least one is building.

Hey Bd,
1. It's using diesel engines - not exactly ideal if you want to make it larger to be able to equip more stuff. Also, the other problem is that it's simply not as quiet as gas turbines.
2. Weak ASW - while it's AAW and ASuW is more than sufficient at the moment, it should have more ASW equipment as a future escort. Outside of the noise issue, we haven't seen any VDS or TAS (although I have speculated conformal VDS before)
3. hull - while it is the most stealthy hull in PLAN, I think in probably 5 to 10 years when it's been mass produced, there will be far stealthier hulls out there. And on top of that, I'm not a shipbuilding expert, but I really question how much more armament you can fit on this hull (don't think it can be stretched much more).

I think the current 054A's main job is still defense against US aircraft attack and cruiser missiles, should there be a war over taiwan. I believe for 10 years, PLAN is seriously working on how to protect PLAAF's bases from the sea.

China will have a decent blue water fleet in the near future, but I don't think PLAN want to deploy more than 1/5 of her ships oversea. The top priority is Taiwan and it's very close to the coast.

[crobato]

I have a design challenge to some people here.

The assignment is to fit four phase arrays into the 054 design, while maintaining a 360 degree coverage on the arrays.

Lets see what we can come up.

[szbd]

I have a design challenge to some people here.

The assignment is to fit four phase arrays into the 054 design, while maintaining a 360 degree coverage on the arrays.

Lets see what we can come up.

I think that's impossible. 054A is too small and too slim.

[tphuang]

When the ship is being launched, it will have a big shock when going into the water. Therefore you don't install all your fragile equipment on the ship before it being launched. But ship is much more stable on the slipway than in water, so you want to install as many equipment as possible before the ship being launched. You need to have a very mature design, very strong hull and very accurate calculation and control in launching. The 054A only lack of see eagle now, so it's already a very big achievement, a big sign of mass production. The DDG51 barely had anything installed on mast when launching.

HP shipyard is shallow and narrow, so they always use float dock to launch ships, and therefore avoids the shock. So the 054A in HP had sea eagle installed when launching.
have you seen any of the previous 054A that got launched? They all had sea eagle installed.

I think the current 054A's main job is still defense against US aircraft attack and cruiser missiles, should there be a war over taiwan. I believe for 10 years, PLAN is seriously working on how to protect PLAAF's bases from the sea.

China will have a decent blue water fleet in the near future, but I don't think PLAN want to deploy more than 1/5 of her ships oversea. The top priority is Taiwan and it's very close to the coast.

how does this respond to my point over 054A?

[planeman]

I'd favour either a staggered mast application or a combination mast-funnel based loosely on the F-100's but mounted where the current funnel is.

[szbd]

have you seen any of the previous 054A that got launched? They all had sea eagle installed.
In huangpu, sure, they use float dock. The previous one in HD I'm not sure, maybe this time the sea eagle is a different one.

how does this respond to my point over 054A?

About the weak ASW part. I think this is not high priority for PLAN now since I guess they mainly expect 054A to defend against cruiser missiles close to Chinese coast. For later 054A vessles, I don't know.

[tphuang]

In huangpu, sure, they use float dock. The previous one in HD I'm not sure, maybe this time the sea eagle is a different one.

They all had Sea Eagle. Whether they were on floating dock or not is irrelevant.

About the weak ASW part. I think this is not high priority for PLAN now since I guess they mainly expect 054A to defend against cruiser missiles close to Chinese coast. For later 054A vessles, I don't know.
What? 054A defending against cruise missiles? Do you know what you are talking about at all?

[oringo]

I have a design challenge to some people here.

The assignment is to fit four phase arrays into the 054 design, while maintaining a 360 degree coverage on the arrays.

Lets see what we can come up.
Crobato, no offense, but what is the point of this challenge? 054 does not have the room to fit a large VLS even if you managed to fit four phase array radars. It's a waste to have all the sensors you want but not enough means to act upon them. It would just turn 054 to a very expense AWACS minus the surface search capability.

[crobato]

Frigates have their own "baby AEGIS" (SPY-1D), so you can have phase array scaled to a frigate's needs. I don't consider the use of Orekh style illuminators to be a lasting feature, and the 054 design is intended for the long run. Somewhere down the line, the use of a small phase array four face set would have to go into the 054 series.

I have two configurations. The first is to raise the superstructure and fit two arrays. The other two arrays will be installed on the modified rear mast.

The second configuration is to put two arrays on the main mast, two on the rear mast.

[szbd]

They all had Sea Eagle. Whether they were on floating dock or not is irrelevant.

What? 054A defending against cruise missiles? Do you know what you are talking about at all?

If a ship can defend against AShW missiles, why it can not defend cruiser missiles?

[tphuang]

If a ship can defend against AShW missiles, why it can not defend cruiser missiles?
There are too many reasons here, but let's just give you a simple one:
If the range of HH-16 against low altitude missiles is 20 km (and I think that's even overstated), what do you think is the likelihood that a cruise missile will happen to go by the 20 km radius under its coverage?

[backwindow]

Some new pics about VL

[szbd]

There are too many reasons here, but let's just give you a simple one:
If the range of HH-16 against low altitude missiles is 20 km (and I think that's even overstated), what do you think is the likelihood that a cruise missile will happen to go by the 20 km radius under its coverage?

Cruiser missiles fly higher than AShW missiles.

I thought of that. What I think is, PLAN will have some ships patroling close to the coast anyway. And it is better to have those ships to have the ability of defending cruiser missiles. 1 054A is close to or probability better than the ability of a Tor M1 battalion.

Because I don't understand why PLAN waste so much money in recent 10 years. It seems what they want is as many air defense ships as possible. Every type of new ship has drawbacks. The 2 last sovs and 052Bs are actually not necessary if you can build 052C in only a few years. And you only build sth like 051C when you badly need some float AAM station but had no other choice in 2-3 years. While 054A is better, but do you have to build it in such a hurry? the first one even doesn't have number yet now you have 4 in the water. And, 054A is not perfect either.

So, what I think is PLAN want an air defense line before 2008, it's a firm order from the top and they had no choice but more and more ships, anything can shoot an air target at >20km.

[tphuang]

Cruiser missiles fly higher than AShW missiles.

doesn't matter, the TLAM travel low enough that the engagement distance is not going to change much. Any you should think about more importantly the difference between defending against the two types of missiles. In one case, you know the missile is coming at you or another ship, in the second case, you have no idea where the missile is going.

I thought of that. What I think is, PLAN will have some ships patroling close to the coast anyway. And it is better to have those ships to have the ability of defending cruiser missiles. 1 054A is close to or probability better than the ability of a Tor M1 battalion.

China has a HUGE coast, and HH-16 has no where near the range needed to be able to make much of a difference. Now, 052C and its follow ups do have a role to play, but that's another topic. I don't want to go through all my weird theories in one post.

It's far more important for 054A to be assigned to protect the fleet than civilian locations.

Because I don't understand why PLAN waste so much money in recent 10 years. It seems what they want is as many air defense ships as possible. Every type of new ship has drawbacks. The 2 last sovs and 052Bs are actually not necessary if you can build 052C in only a few years. And you only build sth like 051C when you badly need some float AAM station but had no other choice in 2-3 years. While 054A is better, but do you have to build it in such a hurry? the first one even doesn't have number yet now you have 4 in the water. And, 054A is not perfect either.

So, what I think is PLAN want an air defense line before 2008, it's a firm order from the top and they had no choice but more and more ships, anything can shoot an air target at >20km.
well, 052B is needed, because they couldn't proceed directly to 052C. Too much a technological leap. 051C was an issurance for 052C, but it's turned out to be a waste of money since it came out long after 052C. The Sovs were bought for numerous reasons, I don't want to get into the specifics. Some of the reasons are political.

As for 052C, it's just a start to what PLAN needs. Frankly, it's hull needs a lot of improvements too. The newer European AAW are far more stealthy than it. Basically, PLAN is in a prolonged catch up, they can't get to what they need right away, that's why you have all these incremental classes. 054A is as close as they get to a world class ship especially for its cost. They basically build something that's better than Sov in air defense, anti-ship missile and stealthiness for less than 1/3 of the cost. And if you look at the current PLAN, you will see that 054A is badly needed in every fleet to just protect the rest of the fleet. Do you want more reasons on why 054 series needs to be mass produced?

[szbd]

OK, I got your idea. But back to the original debate, still, ASW is not very important for 054A right now.

Another thing. Why do you think stealthy is so important? I agree it is very important, but how decisive a factor of stealthy for designing the hull? What I can think about is, stealth helps to defend against ASW missiles and reduce the distance being detected by enmey. But an E2 still can find you from hundreds of km away and a harpoon has no problem to lock on you when it jump out from the horizon.

[crobato]

Article by James Bussert here for SIGNAL magazine on the Jiankai series. A bit dense, lots of detailed info, some of which we know already about, but nonetheless interesting to read.

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=1312&zoneid=30

On the radar, Type 364 may simply be the PLA designation for SR-64. However KANWA and Jane's description of the frequency band is contradictory to each other.


His other article for the 052C and 052B

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=1312&zoneid=30

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=1312&zoneid=30

[szbd]

Sorry, your 3 links are identicle. I found one here

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=992&zoneid=7

[Scratch]

I have a design challenge to some people here.

The assignment is to fit four phase arrays into the 054 design, while maintaining a 360 degree coverage on the arrays.

Lets see what we can come up.

Could you live with three phase arrays on a ship?
I would say on top of the first mast two arrays directed to the front right and front left and one on the aft mast over the exhaust facing straight back.

[crobato]

Could you live with three phase arrays on a ship?
I would say on top of the first mast two arrays directed to the front right and front left and one on the aft mast over the exhaust facing straight back.

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

[Gollevainen]

For Crobato's challenge what first came to my mind was the cancelled Russian project 1244.1 Novik class frigate which is strinkingly similar to 054A in both layout and dimension. As you see in the pic there seems to be at least two plannad array radars in the mast which also fields the Fregat as well. Or slightly modified version could have similar mast as in pr. 2235 Sergei Gorshkov...

here's a drawing of Novik:

[szbd]

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

[nemo]

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

I don't think intermediate guidance need to be complicated . Missile is launch with the guidance turned off. All the director need to do is tell the missile where to go. To engage the target, the director just direct the missile to go close enough to the target, then tell the missile to activate the guidance. The data rate for this does not have to be very high.

[szbd]

data issue is not the key. You have to broadcast in high frequency and different channels, that will be a jamming. I'm not sure if it's possible. Usually the intermediate guidance signal is sent by the search and track radar.

[tphuang]

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.
Well, I think Chris knows how Semi-active guidance works. But, this does not necessarily mean a MFR is needed for this. For example, something like Aster 15 needs an update every second. I'd think it would be similar for HH-16. Therefore, what you could do is have the MFR concentrate on its tracking of the targets and then pass the target information to a datalink that's operating on a frequency acceptable for HH-16 and then send the update. And then the FCRs will just provide the terminal illumination.

Remember, if MFR dedicates 1/10 of its resource doing target engagement, that's 1/10 that it can't spend on volume search or tracking of different altitudes. And to make MFR do target update to missiles, your radar would have to support this extra specification, which means it might not be able to operate as well on its other mode compared to the scenario when the radar doesn't have to support this. That's why a special uplink radar is a pretty good idea. But then, this would require additional cost, space and you would have to put it in a position that allows for 360 degree coverage. Actually, the interesting thing about 054A is the guidance. If we consider that the FCRs in 054A is only providing the terminal illumination, then something else have to be tracking targets and sending updates. Sea Eagle certainly doesn't have the refresh rate to do this. SR-64 does, but it's short ranged and that would siginficantly decrease the range of HH-16. So in the end, the FCRs on 054A might still be providing continuous illumination.

[szbd]

My concern is how you send the data. We know that a phase array radar can track hundreds of targets. If something can just broadcast the targets' coordinates into the air and every AAW missile has it's on channel so that each missile can attack its own target, then, theoritically you can have infinite missiles in intermediate guidance phase. If the missile is active radar guidanced, then, you can attack infinite targets at the same time as long as you have enough missiles flying. If this is that easy, everybody would have done that. So what I think is either there's a frequency limitation, or the intermediate guidence signal is sent by a narrow beam directly to the missile, that means by a radar, a very powerful radar. If it's because of frequency limitation, which means the data is broadcasted to the missiles, then what's the advantage to use phase array radar for intermediate guidance? Phase array radar never broadcast.

[nemo]

I don't see why you would need a unique frequency for each missile in flight -- all you really need to do is to include missile ID in the command and each missile only respond to one missile ID. This is how ethernet works anyway -- the algorithm for this is well known.

[szbd]

Man, if you can use something similar to ethernet to control your missiles, NMD is already fully operational now.

[tphuang]

My concern is how you send the data. We know that a phase array radar can track hundreds of targets. If something can just broadcast the targets' coordinates into the air and every AAW missile has it's on channel so that each missile can attack its own target, then, theoritically you can have infinite missiles in intermediate guidance phase. If the missile is active radar guidanced, then, you can attack infinite targets at the same time as long as you have enough missiles flying. If this is that easy, everybody would have done that. So what I think is either there's a frequency limitation, or the intermediate guidence signal is sent by a narrow beam directly to the missile, that means by a radar, a very powerful radar. If it's because of frequency limitation, which means the data is broadcasted to the missiles, then what's the advantage to use phase array radar for intermediate guidance? Phase array radar never broadcast.

They use different channels for each missile. For example, Sampson and Herakles are both said to be able to control more than 10 missiles (in fact Sampson is said to have multiple engagement tracks, allowing for many channels and engage "several 10s" targets). Remember, there is a huge difference between the frequency you use to send to missile and the frequency you use to track targets. You want to be able to use a frequency that would give you reliable tracking and have high refreshment rate (like 1 per second).

[nemo]

You would be surprised at how backward some military tech is -- particularly to maintain compatibility with existing HW such as missile stockpile. I developed flight control computer some years ago, so I have some idea about how surprisingly low tech it is -- but that's another issue.


The key to ethernet is simple-- how to resolve collision if two transmit at same time. The solution is simple -- each back off and re-transmit at random time later, and no one may transmit when the other is transmitting. This is simple enough when the more difficult part is already solved -- such as transmitting and receiving data reliably.
I really don't see why a variant of the scheme cannot be applied.

[crobato]

I see two ranges when quoted for the SR-64, 8000m and 100km. Given the size of the antenna, I would say 100km would be the maximum range. 8000m could be like a minimum range, which then Rice Lamp or CIWS radar takes over. The shortest range radar would be the one with the highest scan refresh and data transfer rates.

As Feng said, I was thinking that the SR-64 could be providing midcourse updates, with the Orekh clones taking over at the terminal phase. This is a change from the Russian configuration where the Top Plate provides both volume search and tracking capability into one. Of course the danger of the latter approach is that once the Top Plates gets into high refresh rate tracking, it cannot do high volume range search at the same time, foregoing long range situational awareness, unless another radar takes over the volume search function. With the Chinese system, the Sea Eagle provides the main volume search function.

If the missiles are turned into ARH, the Orekh illuminators can be eliminated, replaced with smaller high rate datalinks.

Nemo, the principle you describe with Ethernet, or wireless broadband, may be more suited for general purpose datalinks, like Link-16, Russia's Lightbulb or China's HN-900. But for missile purposes there is nothing wrong by being brutally simple. After all its not really hard to give each missile a seperate datalink channel, compared to working out a variant of the Ethernet scheme.

[nemo]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if this scheme or something similar has already been used for AEGIS -- you need to handle hundreds of missiles in air (for the whole task force) and having hundreds of data channels can prove to be awkward and expensive. Brutal simplicity is fine, but it does not really scale up.

[snake65]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if this scheme or something similar has already been used for AEGIS -- you need to handle hundreds of missiles in air (for the whole task force) and having hundreds of data channels can prove to be awkward and expensive. Brutal simplicity is fine, but it does not really scale up.

Well, hundreds of missiles even for a task force is a bit steep demand, with every SPY-1 "face" providing midcourse update for 6 missiles. And of course, you are limited by the number of terminal illuminators. Even a "starshell" attack from all directions will not provide "hundreds" of Standard missiles in the air.

[nemo]

Well, hundreds of missiles even for a task force is a bit steep demand, with every SPY-1 "face" providing midcourse update for 6 missiles. And of course, you are limited by the number of terminal illuminators. Even a "starshell" attack from all directions will not provide "hundreds" of Standard missiles in the air.

We are only taking about data link part. Actual assigning of missile to director does not have to happen at missile launch -- it can happen on last command/target assignment.

Able to handle at least tens of missile in air was necessary for AEGIS because USSR was capable of massed missile launch of that magnitude.

[tphuang]

Some new pictures, but this first one is interesting
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3363/054avlslidopenhq0.jpg

Looks like the lid of the VLS is open. From what I can see, that looks like 2 rows of lid open with 4 per row. So, 4 x 8 = 32 cells.

more pictures from HD, the first one
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5769/054ahdmay28rl9.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6315/054ahdfrontmastmay28lt0.jpg
second one
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7162/054ahd2may28fr4.jpg

[Gollevainen]

that would prove the concensus of 32 missiles of which we have become with our assumptions;)

[kickars]

Finally we've got our proof for the 32 cells. Wonder why they built the whole ship as stealthy as possible first, then just finishing off with some cheap steal tube barriers on each side? It's a bit like put some cheap wood look like dash board panels in a Ferrari.

[bd popeye]

Finally we've got our proof for the 32 cells. Wonder why they built the whole ship as stealthy as possible first, then just finishing off with some cheap steal tube barriers on each side? It's a bit like put some cheap wood look like dash board panels in a Ferrari.

Could you plese re-post a picture of what you are refering to? Sounds like some sort of bumper. Many ships use this sort of thing to prevent damage to the hull when tied up in port. They are not generally a permanent part of the hull. I do need a picture to be sure. Thanks!

[kickars]

Could you plese re-post a picture of what you are refering to? Sounds like some sort of bumper. Many ships use this sort of thing to prevent damage to the hull when tied up in port. They are not generally a permanent part of the hull. I do need a picture to be sure. Thanks!

Sorry, I was refering to the first picture tphuang posted above (656). Rather than like the original 054 which has an extra surface for the barrier, on 054A they just use some welded steel tube instead.

[Gollevainen]

....After actually looking the picture, I take few steps backwards, there is only 16 hacthes open...where's the other 16?

[backwindow]

....After actually looking the picture, I take few steps backwards, there is only 16 hacthes open...where's the other 16?

Notice that the first 2(from right to left) White Cover is no along the same line with the third one.
Those 2 are belong to the fourth row(column?).

[Gollevainen]

They are just angled differently. I know what you ment but if it would be that there was another row an its boxes open, the "white" hathces which were the farest from the camera would not even be able to see from this angle.

We need proper over the top image of the exposed VLS...

[crobato]

There are four white hatches alone the front, and two of them are along the same line, and so is the other two. Two of the white hatches look closer, while the other two are further away. This should mean there are four hatches abreast.

[FugitiveVisions]

First, anyone know why the lid is dark orange on the outside?

The four white lids on the right belong to the same column. The third one is slightly tilted back further than the other three, just like the third orange lid from the left, and thus causing a slight shadow. The shadow can't possibly come from something as far away as the lids on the second column.

The lids are square shaped, which eliminates the possibility that there are two lids for each hatch. And if you look at the old picture of the lids, there appears to be 32 of them. That is very strong evidence that there are 32 hatches. However, I agree with Gollavainen that we need a nice picture from up top, because there has been confusion over the shape and color of the lids.