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Washington
09-04-2005, 12:04 PM
Xinhua News Agency: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/03/content_3434262.htm

BEIJING, Sept. 3 -- Amid the commemorative events held this year across the United Kingdom to mark the end of the Second World War in the Far East, something was disturbingly missing. Not only British soldiers who fought in the Far East have earned a reference as the "forgotten army," but also the Chinese, who fought eight years of resistance against Japanese invasion, were barely mentioned. It is quite obvious that the general public in Britain knows little about the war that raged in the Asian theatre at that time.

This is also reflected in the latest research undertaken by the Royal British Legion, the leading charity in Britain dedicated to the service of war veterans. It revealed that only two per cent of 11-to-18-year-olds could correctly identify the date of the Victory in Japan (VJ) Day anniversary, let alone the Chinese War of Resistance against Japanese Aggression from 1937 to 1945.

What is encouraging, however, is the increasing attention from Western historians in the last few years to the Asia theatre in World War II, and Chinese battlefields in particular, as they start to reflect on how China's endeavours contributed to the end of WWII.

In his article "Remembering the Forgotten War" published by History Today in August, Dr Rana Mitter, lecturer in Chinese history and politics at Oxford University, wrote: "The achievement of the Chinese, and particularly of the Nationalist (Kuomintang) government, in holding down close to a million Japanese troops in China has been underplayed in later historical accounts, even though the conflict became a part of the wider world war after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941."

Mitter, whose special research interest is Sino-Japanese relations in the Manchurian period, estimates the number of Chinese killed in the war at between 15 and 35 million, which is "comparable to the huge loss of life in the Soviet Union." He also puts the number of refugees within China at 80 million.

In Mitter's view, without China's efforts in diverting the Japanese troops, the warfare would have been more "hazed" with other unfathomed changes in the European war field. In fact, he said, "China was the first country that entered the war, holding down some one million Japanese troops. In doing so, China had been engaged in 137 local wars, which is amazing."

The Oxford researcher admitted that only in the last decade scholars from Europe and the United States have started to realize China's contribution to WWII. He gave two reasons for the slow recognition. One is that people's attention has been mostly concentrated on Germany and Europe as a whole. Secondly, there have been few discussions within China on the war in the last 20 years. With improved cross-Straits relations, and more interaction between the Kuomintang and Communists on the war, understanding of that period of history has become more integrated and mutual.

But to the wider Western world, it was the book "Rape of Nanking" that accelerated interest in China's anti-Japanese war. The book, written by Chinese-American author Iris Chang, topped international best-seller list for weeks and captured Western attention to China's eight-year war of resistance.

Such interest has increased in the last 10 years with Western scholars and students alike keen to study China's modern history as a way to understand its past.

"Some of my students even visited the Chinese People's Museum of the War of Resistance against the Japanese Aggression at Lugouqiao (Marco Polo Bridge) when they travelled to China. And they were very interested! I also enjoyed my research at the Shanghai Municipal Archive, which is very keen to help Western researchers study the history. China has opened up its historical documents for scholars to study, although it's a pity that some documents had been destroyed," said Mitter.

He believes that the China's resistance war is not only a national war, but also an international one. It is good to see that over the years, new and powerful understanding of the history has emerged. But he cautioned that anger should not overwhelm understanding. Understanding the past and passing it onto future generations as a lesson is a good way for reconciliation before moving on.

Like Mitter, Dr Hans van de Ven with Cambridge University is also one of the Western scholars intrigued by China's resistance against Japanese aggression, and indeed one of the forerunners in studying the military aspect of the history. In his book "War and Nationalism in China (1925-1945)" published in 2003, he dwells on details of the resistance, as well as the roles played by Kuomintang and Communists in the war.

In his latest paper titled "The Sino-Japanese War in the Context of Chinese Military History," van de Ven tackles the difficult and complex military aspects of the war and brings forth some of his novel understanding.

In his opinion, the fact that China's war of resistance was largely ignored by the West has much to do with the Western assessments of China's pursuit of the war. These judged the Kuomintang by the yardstick of China's ability to wage modern offensive warfare and the habit of discussing the military in terms of the material culture of war, specially technology prowess.

However, "Chinese resistance illustrated the limits of modern warfare and made clear that a society's potential to resist an invader is not just a function of having well-trained armies and advanced weapons. There were important cultural, political and military resources in the Chinese past on which the Nationalists could draw as they pursued their war with Japan," he said.

Some moves and operations undertaken by the Chinese "were not necessarily evidence of feudal backwardness but can also be read as sensible ways of pursuing a difficult war in an agrarian empire with limited resources and a weak state."

Despite China's contribution to the WWII, van de Ven noted, the war efforts of the Chinese troops were not taken seriously by the Allies.

In 1941, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, "Britain made use of Chinese forces to protect its own armies and recover its colonial possession in Burma, while the United States compelled Chinese forces in Yunnan to enter Burma at the same time that Japanese forces pushed deep into South China. China was a bargain basement partner of whom was demanded much at little cost."

Nonetheless, he said, "Burma was the only place where the Nationalists could fight with the British and the US against Japan. Although ultimately of little strategic consequence, the most significant tactical defeats inflicted on Japan on the Asian mainland took place in Burma."

Van de Ven therefore believes "China is a serious and major component of the Second World War" and its role in the conflict needs to be "reassessed."




Obcession
09-04-2005, 12:27 PM
I don't like how the Tokyo Trials were judged mainly by the Americans. There should've been more Chinese judges too.

Chairman Hu
09-05-2005, 12:38 PM
I'm not here to fuel Anti-American Setiment but...

For all of you that didn't know...

Shiro Iishi is the leader of 731 and he stood trial in 46ish... He was granted his free rights to live and had all war crimes dropped if he revealed to America his work with bio-chem weapon, which was banned from the Guineva(sp) Convention in 1925. He died in 1959 peacefully and he slaughtered at least half of a million Chinese and Korean civilians through Nerve Gas, Mustard Gas, Bubonic Plauge, Anthrax, and other exposures

This is one of the reason the world hates America... They hate irony and they hate hypocrits that critize others of their humanitarian rights and such even though they had a worse one and won't correct it

PS: There were American soldiers is Mukden(Shenyang) and was part of the 731, when they came back to America, they were denied of their past, and nothing happened

MIGleader
09-05-2005, 12:50 PM
the americans protected dozens of nazi death camp officials if they agrred to spy on the soviets. they smuggled them out.

Neko
09-06-2005, 02:23 PM
western rascistrs. only now do they start appreciating the chinese.

You have to understand, friend. We of the twenty first century are not those of the WWII era. If we don't recognize the contributions of any one faction, it is due to past events and poor history keeping.

You should be grateful that we of current times are wiser and more accepting of the truth, and acknowledge your peoples' sacrifices. I appreciate them for one, because were it not for Chinese involvement, many more of my own would have died, and there is the distinct possibility that I myself would not even have been born because of it.

phillywop
09-13-2005, 11:44 AM
When I was in school the teacher inisisted that World War 2 started when Japan invaded China, and we were penalized if we gave any other answer.

As for the US, unit 731, etc., the US government did all sorts of criminal things throughout the Cold War. Thankfully, the social cuurents have shifted, and it is extremely unlikely that such things could happen again.

IDonT
09-13-2005, 11:54 AM
Would you guys wanted the Soviet Union to have won and the US to have lost the Cold War?

US is no saint but it could be a lot worse under the USSR.

FreeAsia2000
09-16-2005, 07:45 AM
When I was in school the teacher inisisted that World War 2 started when Japan invaded China, and we were penalized if we gave any other answer.

As for the US, unit 731, etc., the US government did all sorts of criminal things throughout the Cold War. Thankfully, the social cuurents have shifted, and it is extremely unlikely that such things could happen again.

Phillyop...have you heard of Abu Ghreib.... ?

Washington
09-20-2005, 01:39 PM
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2005/09/15/186154/Flying_Tigers_reunited.htm

shichiroji4
09-28-2005, 11:46 PM
I personally think such bias is unavoidable, why would an average British kid be interested in Chinese resistance during WW2? The Chinese are just as guilty when it comes to relating WW2 history to the general public.

From some of these Chinese programs, the impression conveyed is that China managed to drive out the Japanese all by themselves and the resistance was "victorious" against the Japanese Imperial Army. Some of the Phoenix documentaries are bad enough, but those from CCTV are even worse.

DPRKUnderground
09-29-2005, 04:42 PM
Phillyop...have you heard of Abu Ghreib.... ?

FreeAsia2000, ever heard of Tianmmen Square?

MIGleader
09-29-2005, 08:08 PM
FreeAsia2000, ever heard of Tianmmen Square?

who hasn't?
but its the past, just like vietman protsts and the civil rights era.

Gollevainen
09-30-2005, 05:48 AM
And if you are prefering to the 1989 incident, its unofically banned issue in this forum so watch it. Anyone bringing it up migth face a warning.
Also remember that this is military forum and when ever the non-military conversation goes too offline, like manifesting all past crimes and miss haps some other country has done, I shall end the conversation. Got it?

DPRKUnderground
09-30-2005, 05:42 PM
who hasn't?
but its the past, just like vietman protsts and the civil rights era.

Alright, but so is Abu Ghraib, it happened a year ago, and it's history. Why talk about something that only about a dozen people took part in, that the US has taken care of by punishing the people who did this. Yes it was horrible, and those people were sick and crazy, but come on! That's not what the US government supports, an FreeAsia is implying that the US does support that.

MIGleader
09-30-2005, 06:31 PM
And if you are prefering to the 1989 incident, its unofically banned issue in this forum so watch it. Anyone bringing it up migth face a warning.
Also remember that this is military forum and when ever the non-military conversation goes too offline, like manifesting all past crimes and miss haps some other country has done, I shall end the conversation. Got it?


why? this is the china history/military/politics forum, and 1989 was indeed an important talk of chinas history. im sure we dont like to talk of it, but if we can analyze the incident and talk of it in a constructive manner rather than trash incident, i dont see why it is a forbidden subject.

FriedRiceNSpice
09-30-2005, 07:41 PM
During WWII, in the defense of Shangahi, Chiang's elite Germany-trained and equipped army put up a valiant fight against superior Japanese forces. Especially heroic were the actions of the "800 Heroes," who defended a stragetic warehouse against overwhelming Japanese odds, allowing the rest of the Chinese army to retreat to safety.

Gollevainen
10-01-2005, 04:52 AM
[QUOTE]why? this is the china history/military/politics forum, QUOTE]

NO, this is chinese MILITARY FORUM...and this section is military history forum, not political forum. Political discussion is allowed as long as it stays non-controversial and doesen't rise any pickery....these instructions comes straight from the top...

DPRKUnderground
10-01-2005, 01:10 PM
During WWII, in the defense of Shangahi, Chiang's elite Germany-trained and equipped army put up a valiant fight against superior Japanese forces. Especially heroic were the actions of the "800 Heroes," who defended a stragetic warehouse against overwhelming Japanese odds, allowing the rest of the Chinese army to retreat to safety.

Wow, were they trained by the Nazis or the pre-Nazi Army? And how did they get the equipment?

FreeAsia2000
10-03-2005, 01:01 PM
Alright, but so is Abu Ghraib, it happened a year ago, and it's history. Why talk about something that only about a dozen people took part in, that the US has taken care of by punishing the people who did this. Yes it was horrible, and those people were sick and crazy, but come on! That's not what the US government supports, an FreeAsia is implying that the US does support that.

Your're right I am...I believe the orders came right from the top.
I believe you think Abu Ghreib is some regrettable one-off and if you
believe that....
Same as Madeline 'Jabba the Hutts' Albright comments about 500,000
Iraqi babies being a price she thought was worth paying.

the Chinese war of resistance against fascism teaches that tyranny must
always be opposed with unwavering determination and although it
will sometimes call itself 'Co-Prosperity' it is in fact nothing but organised
theft and plunder which if left unchecked will eventually consume the
world

DPRKUnderground
10-03-2005, 09:52 PM
Your're right I am...I believe the orders came right from the top.
I believe you think Abu Ghreib is some regrettable one-off and if you
believe that....
Same as Madeline 'Jabba the Hutts' Albright comments about 500,000
Iraqi babies being a price she thought was worth paying.

the Chinese war of resistance against fascism teaches that tyranny must
always be opposed with unwavering determination and although it
will sometimes call itself 'Co-Prosperity' it is in fact nothing but organised
theft and plunder which if left unchecked will eventually consume the
world

500,000 Iraqi babies? You mean the ones killed by Saddam right?

FreeAsia2000
10-04-2005, 08:58 AM
500,000 Iraqi babies? You mean the ones killed by Saddam right?

See below



Let them eat bombs

The doubling of child malnutrition in Iraq is baffling

Terry Jones
Tuesday April 12, 2005
The Guardian

A report to the UN human rights commission in Geneva has concluded that Iraqi children were actually better off under Saddam Hussein than they are now.

This, of course, comes as a bitter blow for all those of us who, like George Bush and Tony Blair, honestly believe that children thrive best when we drop bombs on them from a great height, destroy their cities and blow up hospitals, schools and power stations.

It now appears that, far from improving the quality of life for Iraqi youngsters, the US-led military assault on Iraq has inexplicably doubled the number of children under five suffering from malnutrition. Under Saddam, about 4% of children under five were going hungry, whereas by the end of last year almost 8% were suffering.

These results are even more disheartening for those of us in the Department of Making Things Better for Children in the Middle East By Military Force, since the previous attempts by Britain and America to improve the lot of Iraqi children also proved disappointing. For example, the policy of applying the most draconian sanctions in living memory totally failed to improve conditions. After they were imposed in 1990, the number of children under five who died increased by a factor of six. By 1995 something like half a million Iraqi children were dead as a result of our efforts to help them.

A year later, Madeleine Albright, then the US ambassador to the United Nations, tried to put a brave face on it. When a TV interviewer remarked that more children had died in Iraq through sanctions than were killed in Hiroshima, Mrs Albright famously replied: "We think the price is worth it."

But clearly George Bush didn't. So he hit on the idea of bombing them instead. And not just bombing, but capturing and torturing their fathers, humiliating their mothers, shooting at them from road blocks - but none of it seems to do any good. Iraqi children simply refuse to be better nourished, healthier and less inclined to die. It is truly baffling.

And this is why we at the department are appealing to you - the general public - for ideas. If you can think of any other military techniques that we have so far failed to apply to the children of Iraq, please let us know as a matter of urgency. We assure you that, under our present leadership, there is no limit to the amount of money we are prepared to invest in a military solution to the problems of Iraqi children.

In the UK there may now be 3.6 million children living below the poverty line, and 12.9 million in the US, with no prospect of either government finding any cash to change that. But surely this is a price worth paying, if it means that George Bush and Tony Blair can make any amount of money available for bombs, shells and bullets to improve the lives of Iraqi kids. You know it makes sense.

·Terry Jones is a film director, actor and Python. He is the author of Terry Jones's War on the War on Terror




http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1457630,00.html

DPRKUnderground
10-04-2005, 11:07 AM
See below




http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1457630,00.html


Well, they have a better future! Instead of being this socialist one-man dictatorship where they're most likely going to be drafted into the military b/c the US is going to declare wra on them anyway, they can live in a capitalist Islamic democracy somewhat like Pakistan's and get a better education, more money, and a good job! Look at Pakistan's economy right now! It's growing, but no one's eyes are on them b/c of the rise of India and China. Nowe Iraq will have US support and they'll get plenty of aid, and more oppurtunites. But if those freakin insurgents don't stop, then Iraq is a failed country, the citizens are angry at both sides, and just want this to be over with. They're happy Saddam is gone, and they want their own country, but if the insurgents keep on attacking, this won't happen!

Gollevainen
10-05-2005, 05:07 AM
No more iraq conversation in CHINESE MILITARY HISTORY FORUM!!!!!!

Lavi
10-05-2005, 06:21 AM
How come Germany trained an army to fight their Japanese allies? Anyone got any more on this one? Equipment, when & where they where trained, what they did during the war, and so on...

FriedRiceNSpice
10-05-2005, 08:42 PM
Wow, were they trained by the Nazis or the pre-Nazi Army? And how did they get the equipment?

They were trained by Hitler's generals and equipped from Hitler's armories. At one point, Hitler planned on training an additional 30 divisions for Chiang, but then Hitler decided to ally with Japan instead. After that, the deal evaporated and the Chinese recieved no more help from the Germans. About 600,000 German-trained elite troops served Chiang Kai-shek during the 2nd World War.

Obcession
10-05-2005, 09:11 PM
How come Germany trained an army to fight their Japanese allies? Anyone got any more on this one? Equipment, when & where they where trained, what they did during the war, and so on...

You know the grenades that the Nationalist Army used in WWII are German Steilhandgranates?

DPRKUnderground
10-07-2005, 06:22 PM
I'm reading the Rape of nanking, and it's sickening, they did horrible stuff that I don't even want to talk about! :mad:

MIGleader
10-07-2005, 08:15 PM
I'm reading the Rape of nanking, and it's sickening, they did horrible stuff that I don't even want to talk about! :mad:

iris chang, eh? she als wrote a ton of other cutural books,like the "chinese in america" and the "thread of the silKworm."

T-U-P
10-07-2005, 11:55 PM
You know the grenades that the Nationalist Army used in WWII are German Steilhandgranates?
yea, those that kinda look like beer bottles, actually i remeber a comic from awhile ago, it was set in WWII and this little kid thought a person was drinking from one of those grenades (which actually beer bottle...) and ran off to tell the police.:roll:

i thought that was pretty funny.

chinawhite
10-08-2005, 11:40 PM
yea, those that kinda look like beer bottles, actually i remeber a comic from awhile ago, it was set in WWII and this little kid thought a person was drinking from one of those grenades (which actually beer bottle...) and ran off to tell the police.:roll:


i thought people refered to german ww2 grenades as potato mashers

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_8_24_2004_16_16_05/main.jpge6d2f4db-f49c-4ca4-a0a7-e97c59644c0dLarge.jpg
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002808J8.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How come Germany trained an army to fight their Japanese allies? Anyone got any more on this one? Equipment, when & where they where trained, what they did during the war, and so on...

they trained them before they even were allies with japan.

here is a pretty comprehensive history

http://www.feldgrau.com/china.html

Lavi
10-09-2005, 02:03 PM
At least in the Finnish army who used the same grenades they where called potato mashers, don't konw if other countries used the same nickname as well.

adeptitus
10-11-2005, 04:54 PM
How come Germany trained an army to fight their Japanese allies? Anyone got any more on this one? Equipment, when & where they where trained, what they did during the war, and so on...

Many of the early KMT/ROC founders were very pro-German. Dr. Sun himself was impressed at German's social welfare program (Germany was the first EU nation to have national social security, health care, disability insurance, etc).

During the brief period of Gemran military assistance to China, they trained 400,000 to 600,000 (numbers disputed) infantry and helped the ROC to establish its first armored force. Besides the funny stormtrooper helmets, the ROC military also imported items such as the German 88mm dual-use guns, and acquired local manufacturing rights to make copies of some German small arms.

The first battle that the German-trained divisions were committed to was the Battle of Shanghai. Historians would later fault Chiang for sending his troops into a hopeless situation instead of retreating, but Chiang wanted to show the world that his troops could indeed fight the Japanese. So he ordered the 8th, 9th, 14th, 15th, 17th, & 19th group armies to defend Shanghai at any cost.

The total number of nationalist armed forces committed to Shanghai has been estimated at anywhere from 400,000 to 600,000+. Because the defenders included not only regular central army units, but also local divisions and "peace and preservation corps" plus volunteers, the numbers are quite muddled. They managed to hold off the Japanese for 3 months at the cost of 100,000 to 200,000 casualties. The Japanese lost 60,000 to 70,000 casualties.

DPRKUnderground
10-11-2005, 05:10 PM
Many of the early KMT/ROC founders were very pro-German. Dr. Sun himself was impressed at German's social welfare program (Germany was the first EU nation to have national social security, health care, disability insurance, etc).

During the brief period of Gemran military assistance to China, they trained 400,000 to 600,000 (numbers disputed) infantry and helped the ROC to establish its first armored force. Besides the funny stormtrooper helmets, the ROC military also imported items such as the German 88mm dual-use guns, and acquired local manufacturing rights to make copies of some German small arms.

The first battle that the German-trained divisions were committed to was the Battle of Shanghai. Historians would later fault Chiang for sending his troops into a hopeless situation instead of retreating, but Chiang wanted to show the world that his troops could indeed fight the Japanese. So he ordered the 8th, 9th, 14th, 15th, 17th, & 19th group armies to defend Shanghai at any cost.

The total number of nationalist armed forces committed to Shanghai has been estimated at anywhere from 400,000 to 600,000+. Because the defenders included not only regular central army units, but also local divisions and "peace and preservation corps" plus volunteers, the numbers are quite muddled. They managed to hold off the Japanese for 3 months at the cost of 100,000 to 200,000 casualties. The Japanese lost 60,000 to 70,000 casualties.

I was reading in the Rape of Nanking, when the Japanese were landing in Shanghai, they found a surprise! An 88 gun battery at the shore. The Japanese lost 700 men b/c of that including the Princess's nephew!

dlhh
12-03-2008, 03:53 AM
Talking of the rape of nanking, I was in Tokyo in Yakusuni Shrine and saw that they actually celebrated the capture of Nanking with photos of Japanese soldiers raising their weapons in truimph.

I thought it was so provocative as the rape of nanking is a proven fact, only the numbers of victims is disputed.

The Japanese came out with the 3 NOs in their policy after the war- no compenastion, admittance of guilt and apology.

They later apologised but refused to compesate or admit any wrongdoing.

Gollevainen
12-03-2008, 02:53 PM
No need to dig out almoust 4 years old threads, exspecially of those of flamable ingrediences like this one.

Thread closed.
Golly