Why don't they buy other attack sub?

[Dragon]

Hi Everyone,
I am a new member here. Concerning the Chinese Navy, Chinese authorities seem to be very anxious to buy some more Russian made Kilo-class submarines for their Navy. I don't know why they have just bought Kilo class submarines without paying attention to some other submarines like Typhoon ( ICBM launched sub), Oscar ( attack sub) and Delta class. Is only Kilo suitable for Chinese geographical situations? Can Kilo really provide powerful combat ability to Chinese Navy in real Naval battles in Pacific Ocean? I personally think Oscar II class attack sub is much better than Kilo. What do you think ?:nana: :china:

[PiSigma]

Hi Everyone,
I am a new member here. Concerning the Chinese Navy, Chinese authorities seem to be very anxious to buy some more Russian made Kilo-class submarines for their Navy. I don't know why they have just bought Kilo class submarines without paying attention to some other submarines like Typhoon ( ICBM launched sub), Oscar ( attack sub) and Delta class. Is only Kilo suitable for Chinese geographical situations? Can Kilo really provide powerful combat ability to Chinese Navy in real Naval battles in Pacific Ocean? I personally think Oscar II class attack sub is much better than Kilo. What do you think ?:nana: :china:

Welcome to the forum, remember to introduce yourself in the introduction thread and enjoy your stay here at SDF.

All three classes you have listed (Typhoon, Oscar, Delta) are nuclear submarines, they are designed are an second strike force, Delta is designed to attack aircraft carriers with cruise missiles. that means if Russia got nuked, they are there to Nuke back whoever nuked them in the first place.
The Kilo is a diesel-electric attack submarine, it's job is to sink ships. They are complete different types of submarines and have complete different roles in the navy.

[homeless]

In fact , china trusts its second attach capability , the first imperative is lack of conventional submarines , japan , usa and taiwan have strong anti-submarine capabily , so kilo--the black hole in the ocean and a quiet killer--can meet PLANF's needs .China has 8 kilo submarines and the amout will be 12 in the future . that's enough for china's PLANF , because china is building its own Song-class and Yuan -class submarines .

[Sea Dog]

But still, China is developing 093 SSN submarine program on her own. That's a nuclear attack submarine. While diesels are much more suited to slow, littoral operations, the 093 will focus more on deep, open-ocean fighting. I think China is intent on developing nuke subs indigineously. And I'm not convinced that Russia would lease or sell like they did with India. Russia is competing with America for influence of India.

China has proven it can build subs. Just waiting for results of the newer 093 to see how the nuke sub building has advanced.

[DPRKPTboat]

Nuclear submarines like the Delta and Typhoon are very expensive. SSKs like the Kilos are considerably cheaper. And I don't think Russian would really feel very comfortable about selling a huge and highly advnaced SSBN like the Typhoon to China. They'd rather appease them with basic attack submarines like the Kilo. But I think when China has the money, it might buy some Delta ot Alpha SSNs from Russia. That would be a better choice than buildin the Type 093, which is far behind both Russian and Western subs anyway.

[tphuang]

Nuclear submarines like the Delta and Typhoon are very expensive. SSKs like the Kilos are considerably cheaper. And I don't think Russian would really feel very comfortable about selling a huge and highly advnaced SSBN like the Typhoon to China. They'd rather appease them with basic attack submarines like the Kilo. But I think when China has the money, it might buy some Delta ot Alpha SSNs from Russia. That would be a better choice than buildin the Type 093, which is far behind both Russian and Western subs anyway.
actually, the reports are that 094 will have lower noise level than typhoon (which although can hold many SLBMs, is nevertheless extremely noisy compared to the best SSBNs of USA, UK and France)

I think China can lease SSN or SSGNs if it wants from the Russians, but it will have to pay for the construction of them and probably the Russians would want them back after a while. Either way, building your own SSN and SSBN and getting consultation from other countries is still the best option.

[Su-34]

Let's hope that PLAN's 093 SSN enters service before the end of this year.

[Clausewitz]

I agree that Typhoons and Deltas should be forgotten and the Oscar II class is the backbone of the Russian navy (anyway the interesting feature is the SSN 19 Shipwreck missile system, which is not on sale)...as for attack submarines I would have loved to by the Sierras as a technology instructor but their condition may be far from sea-worthy...Akulas are not on sale in my view but the Sierras are a dead end and Russia is famous for selling anything not strategic.

As for China in my view the 093 class is not priority, but the new Ming and imp Kilos are much more important to neutralizing any carrier group SSN escort. In a way a 20+ Chinese sub force could cause havoc for a US typical (or even strengthened) CBG unit...

[MIGleader]

Let's hope that PLAN's 093 SSN enters service before the end of this year.

There are at least four different, credible sites I have visited that state that at last one 93 SSN has been launched since 2001. We can ssume the ship must be in some kind of service now, probably as a demonstrator model. The sites also say at least one more is under construction, perhaps with features reflected by the lessons learned from the first 93.

[Red Guard]

you actually think the russian would just let you buy their nuclear attack submarine???? besides one of the attentions of PLAN is form a submarine force that could protect the sea as far as japan sea, which would be fine with kilo class kinda sub. and nuclear submarine is a very big problem for the envirnment.

[Dragon]

But still, China is developing 093 SSN submarine program on her own. That's a nuclear attack submarine. While diesels are much more suited to slow, littoral operations, the 093 will focus more on deep, open-ocean fighting. I think China is intent on developing nuke subs indigineously. And I'm not convinced that Russia would lease or sell like they did with India. Russia is competing with America for influence of India.

China has proven it can build subs. Just waiting for results of the newer 093 to see how the nuke sub building has advanced.

No. China is developing this 093 SSN submarine with the assitance of Russian engineers and designers. I think it is good for Chinese to have the help of Russian technology.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type093.asp

[tphuang]

No. China is developing this 093 SSN submarine with the assitance of Russian engineers and designers. I think it is good for Chinese to have the help of Russian technology.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type093.asp
considering how many Ex-USSR engineers/scientists are working in Chinese military complexes right now, you can pretty much say that every Chinese initiative have the assistance of Russians. And no, the help is not restricted to the Russians. China is buying all possible latest off-the shelf electronics products. According to Kanwa (not sure if this is correct), China is even using Japanese and German made electronics on 093.

As for Russian not willing to sell attack subs, what about the Kursk controversy? I'm pretty sure the Russians would be willing to make a similar deal with China as it did with the Indians. The problem is the cost of purchasing and maintaining these subs. You might even get a new carrier at that amount.

[Sea Dog]

As for Russian not willing to sell attack subs, what about the Kursk controversy? I'm pretty sure the Russians would be willing to make a similar deal with China as it did with the Indians.

The problem is the cost of purchasing and maintaining these subs. You might even get a new carrier at that amount.

Well, yes, I see Russian assistance involved in China's naval projects as well. I worded myself incorrectly. I meant to just say that they were working on a new 093 sub on their own initiative. Not necessarily by themselves.

As far as the Russians selling nuke boats. There's no evidence that they will sell or offer China options to purchase or lease them as of now. In all fairness to what you're saying though tphuang, there's no evidence that they won't offer them. Perhaps they will. I just haven't seen anything yet that leads me to that conclusion. And you're totally right about the costs. I'm not sure how much a Chinese carrier would cost, but I know they aren't cheap to build and operate. But then again, neither are nuclear subs.

[sumdud]

Russia have only two classes of diesel subs available for sale: the Kilo and Lada/Amur.
And China now have the Kilo. It does not need the Lada, since the Yuan is probably as capable. (In my opinion, buying more Kilos would be sort of silly, since China is making the Yuan itslef, comparable to the Kilo in size and weapons, and probably noise.)

As for SSNs, I would not touch those even if they were up for sale. I simply do not trust Russian SSNs(Nuclear reactors, not sure about reliability or shielding), not with old stories, and especially with rumors I am hearing.
Plus, China has its own weapons incompatable with Russian platforms.
Chinese SSKs aren't that bad anyway.
I am still wondering, what are the differences between Sierra and Akula....

[Kampfwagen]

Sumdud, this is what I was able to find.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/971-specs.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/945-specs.htm

Specifications of both Akula and Sierra Class submarines for comparison. Among items of note is that the Sierra class can dive deeper and has a larger displacement than the Akula. The Akula however is slightly longer. The rest I leave for you.

[darth sidious]

Russia have only two classes of diesel subs available for sale: the Kilo and Lada/Amur.
And China now have the Kilo. It does not need the Lada, since the Yuan is probably as capable. (In my opinion, buying more Kilos would be sort of silly, since China is making the Yuan itslef, comparable to the Kilo in size and weapons, and probably noise.)

As for SSNs, I would not touch those even if they were up for sale. I simply do not trust Russian SSNs(Nuclear reactors, not sure about reliability or shielding), not with old stories, and especially with rumors I am hearing.
Plus, China has its own weapons incompatable with Russian platforms.
Chinese SSKs aren't that bad anyway.
I am still wondering, what are the differences between Sierra and Akula....

Sierra is designed in teh 70s to combat new american SSN such as the LA class is combines the sonar and titanium construction of the alfa with the weapons and quieting fetures of the victoryIII with the more relible VM-5 reactor. the design was a sucess a sierra II was quiet enough to ram the USS banton rouge( and suffer limited damage thanks to its titanium construction). however because of its titanium construction it was tooo expansive to mass produce. the akula was basicaly a serria made out of AK-29 steel( they even skiped the primilary design ) however some of its perfomance its inferior compared with the serria .

[chicket9]

If China did sought nuclear submarine technology from Russia, I'd rather China pursue technology associated with SSBNs than SSNs or SSGNs.

SSBNs, China has quite a lot of propulsion difficulties with Xia, and is still relatively behind in terms of missile, and launch capabilities from submarines. The Delta IV associated technology would probably be useful for the 094 class. Quietness and performance of acquiring Russian SSBNs is not the issue for Chinese SSBNs are not expected to engage any enemy ship in a war and would launch missiles from local waters anway; its the acquisition of technology from the Russians that would ensure efficiency of Chinese submarine launch capabilities and missile encapsulation.

As for SSGN, the SSGN's role can be substituted by modern fighter bombers, surface ships and sub-launched AShMs, all of which China is working on. The SSGN is an expensive option, PLAN submarines using the YJ-8X sublaunch variants should be efficient for the next few decades.

SSN wise, I think PLAN has come quite a way, and if it buys or relies too heavily on Russian SSN designs, then China might end up quite lagging and behind if it has to constantly rely on Russian technology generations behind. The 093 is a good start, and once propulsion is fixed, then what is learnt from quieting technology, torpedoes, sensors and missiles can be applied for create an indigenous high tech submarine.

[chicket9]

I'd say screw buying russian subs...

Not good for China and Russia will be mostly unwillingly to sell subs themselves. If SSN was available for sale, even SSBN, then Russia would sell other advanced things too...

I'd say China should save money, keep on track with 093/094 even if it takes time, continue to receive russian assistance, and spend more money buying more aviation and missile/torpedo products.

Heck, if Russia was willing to sell anything, i'd prefer it if PLAN bought Kutznetsov than russian subs. Kutznetsov at least could work with a repaired Varyag.

Even if we could buy nuclear submarines, the ones the Russians would offer are probably not at even 80% operational capacity, and would cost money to repair and refit them for PLAN service, especially if they are sold from being mothballed.

[sino52C]

There is simply no way to purchase any SSNs from Russia. Mothballed ones are in no shape to be put back into service. New construction would take a long time as Russia no longer has the building capabilities it once had.

However, purchasing more Russian surface ships would not be a bad idea in my opinion, such as the Slava class or Udaloys. They can bridge the gap before larger numbers of 52Cs and 52Bs start arriving in service. But on the other hand, their lack of stealth features is troubling.

[Finn McCool]

China needs to develop its own naval production base, and make itself capable of building nuclear subs and a large navy. Without this it cannot be a true naval power. Besides, it will garner various economic and technological benefits. Buying Russian technology has worked for a while; the main purpose was to build a force capable of detering America, Japan and Taiwan just enough with the threat of the loss of a carrier or large number of ships, etc very quickly. China has done that, and now it needs to "fill in the gaps" by producing its own ships and and ship-building infrastructure and bringing its Navy up to a higher level with larger numbers of quality ships that reflect a more well-rounded navy, capable of dealing with all manner of threats from regional low-intensity conflicts to air/subsurface/surface conventional warfare on a fleet level to full blown nuclear war. Carriers, DDGs and subs are all all part of this equation, as are more mundane things like minesweepers and logistic ships. The PLAN is advancing towards being a well-rounded and universally capable Navy at a fairly quick and even pace.

[chicket9]

Save $$$$, don't buy submarines,

Rather PLAN buy an Ivan Rogev LPD or two (if they are in a sailable condition), any LSTs that the Russians still have around and are for sale, hovercraft like the Aist class, and LCVP technology.

A Chinese purchase of one Ivan Rogev, several Aist cushion craft, and half a dozen LSTs would be more useful than one SSN that probably would be on a least term, old, and needs constant attention.

[adeptitus]

In terms of numbers, the PLAN is not short of attack subs. They have at least 6 SSN's and numerous domestic and imported SSK's. What the PLAN lacks is SSBN's and SSGN's.

Currently the PLAN only has 1 obsolete Type 092 Xia-class SSBN, armed with 12 medium range JL-1A SLBM's, and one Type 094 under eval/testing. The PLAN SSBN fleet does not offer a credible secondary strike/deterrance value vs. other nuclear powers.

In comparison, the Russian Navy, as of June 2000, is said to operate 26 SSBN's with 440 SLBM's & 2,275 warheads total. The USN operates 14x Ohio-class SSBN's with 336 Trident SLBM's, the French has 4-5 SSBN's (4x Triophant & 1x Redoutable) and the British 4 x Vanguard class SSBN's.

The British Navy's Vanguard class SSBN carry 16 Trident II D-5 SLBM's per boat. Each SLBM can carry up to 8 warheads, but the British has self-imposed limit of 48 warheads per sub. Even with the self-imposed limit, a single RN Vanguard-class SSBN still carries more destructive power than the entire PLAN SSBN "fleet". This is a short-coming that the PLAN should address ASAP.

=========

On SSGN capability, the PLAN is also very lacking. The USN has Ohio-class SSGN conversion boats that can carry 154 Tomahawk SLCM's per boat, the 688i Los Angeles class SSN & Virginia class SSN has 12-tube VLS system for Tomahawks, and the Seawolf class SSN can carry up to 50 torpedos & Tomahawks. The Russian Navy have Oscar II class SSGN's that can carry SS-N-19 & SS-N-16's. The British RN's Swiftsure, Trafalgar, & Astute attack subs will be equipped with Tomahawk SLCM's.

The PLAN sub fleet toda does not appear to have land-attack SLCM capability. This could be partly attributed to lack of mature SLCM/LACM platforms. Retrofitting old SSN/SSK's for SLCM gives the submarine a whole new capability. For example, the HMS Splendid, built in 1979, was an old SSN. But by adding the Tomahawk SLCM, she was able to perform land-attack missions in Kosovo war and Gulf War 2.

[sumdud]

PLAN is in need in terms of SLBMs and SSBNs, but as for SSGNs, I think China can soon solve that. China has already gotten the technology for launching missiles underwater, and is nearing the commissioning of their own curise missile, if not done so already. I don't think it will be long before China successfully makes a SLCM, giving way to SSGNs(type 93?) and SSGs(Song and Yuan?)

Speculations are already made for such, if I am right.

[adeptitus]

PLAN is in need in terms of SLBMs and SSBNs, but as for SSGNs, I think China can soon solve that. China has already gotten the technology for launching missiles underwater, and is nearing the commissioning of their own curise missile, if not done so already. I don't think it will be long before China successfully makes a SLCM, giving way to SSGNs(type 93?) and SSGs(Song and Yuan?)
Speculations are already made for such, if I am right.

It's prolly not difficult to upgrade existing PLAN subs for torpedo-tube launched cruise missiles, but the firing rate will be slow comparred to dedicated VLS system.

IMO the primary anti-ship weapon of submarines today, should be cruise missiles and not torpedos. Torpedos are still useful for self-defense vs. other subs, but its limited range (10km-20km?) makes it a "short arm" comparred to 500 km range cruise missile.

The American BGM-109B TASM/SLCM, for example, is a submarine-launched anti-ship vairant of the Tomahawk cruise missile with 1,000 lb (450 kg) warhead and range of 460 km:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-109.html

The BGM-109B (later RGM/UGM-109B) TASM was developed concurrently with the BGM-109A TLAM-N, and was actually the first variant to be deployed in operational status. Instead of TERCOM (which is obviously useless over water), the TASM uses a radar guidance system very similar to that of the AGM/RGM/UGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile, including the latter's strapdown three-axis attitude/heading reference system and AN/DSQ-28 J-band active radar seeker. The missile is launched in the general direction of the target and at some distance from the expected target position, it enters a serpentine flight pattern to search for it using both passive radar to scan enemy emissions and active radar to lock on a detected target. Once the seeker has locked on a target, the RGM/UGM-109B proceeds towards it at very low altitude (sea-skimming). Manoeuvers after lock-on can include short pop-ups to get a better fix on the target position and/or course changes to strike the target from an unexpected direction. The missile is armed with a 450 kg (1000 lb) WDU-25/B high-explosive blast-fragmentation warhead, and can hit the target either from the side or from the top after a terminal pop-up manoeuver.

If we look at the 19,000 ton USN Ohio-class SSGN conversion, it can carry up to 154 Tomahawk SLCM's in VLS cells. Imagine if it was used as an anti-shipping platform.

IMO the PLAN's SSBN development can be modified for SSGN variant (SSBN's are built for VLS anyway). Instead of SLBM's, they can be equipped with SLCM VLS system. Possible weapons include anti-ship SLCM, Land-attack SLCM, anti-submarine rocket/SUBROC, sub-launched UAV, attack-UAV, etc.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario (armchair general at work) with a Type 094 SSGN variant. The assumed specs of the sub is 9,000 ton displacement, 60-80 cel VLS, 6x torpedo tubes + 12-18 torpedos.

===== Simulated fictional scenario =====

An enemy submarine is detected at beyond-torpedo range. The SSGN fires a couple of SUBROC's, which flys for 60 km and drops an active (light-weight) torpedo on top of the enemy sub. Boom. (see: USN Sea Lance SUBROC)

An enemy surface ship is detected (by satellite or other means) at range of 400 km. The SSGN fires multiple anti-ship SLCM's at target, then an UAV to confirm target status (one-way mission, UAV will not be recovered).

The SSGN receives orders to attack a land-target 1,000 km away. The SSGN launches land-attack SLCM's at target, then an UAV to inspect the target.

=======================

Lighter-displacement conventional subs, such as the 039G SSK, are prolly too small for VLS system.

[chakos]

No offence to anyone here but i my personal opinion is that the Chinese submarine force is a load of garbage apart from the Kilos and Yuans it operates. Even the new type 093 is said to be based on the Russian Victor class submarine.. a submarine that to the best of my knowledge is no longer even in service with the Russian navy. If i was in charge of procurement for the Chinese navy i would avoid designing and building indegenous nuclear submarines in the first place. It is obvious that the main threat to China navally is the United States and if you realistically hope to match them then you are wasting your time producing something as complex as a nuclear submarine with little or no experience and hoping that you can compete with a Los Angeles class or a Ohio.

This is what i would to do catch up both numerically and Technologically.

*Build as many Kilos under licence and Yuans as possible in order to secure the littoral approaches to the mainland as well as to be able to blockade the Western side of Taiwan, neutralise the Japanese and Indian navies etc.

*Secure the rights to produce the Akula and the Oscar class submarines from Russia, this could probably be secured under an arrangement that will see a joint Sino/Russian production facility located in China where the submarines are built and an understanding that this facility will also provide maintenance and production of submarines for Russia at a reduced cost. (money talks bullshit walks)

*Purchase 4 - 6 New build Typhoons from Russia (They will take care of your second strike capabilities for at least the next 25 years if maintained correctly, and experience shows that one thing the Chinese are very good at is maintenance).

Once this is done China can concentrate on building more of the new classes of surface vessels it has aleady designed, in my opinion the Chinese navy needs the following to be considered a serious Blue Water Navy

4 - 8 Carriers with an ability to carry at least 36-48 A/C
30 Advanced Destroyers (Type Type 51/52 variants)
40 General Purpose Frigates (Type 53)
4-6 Typhoons
8-12 Oscars
18-24 Akulas

It sounds a lot but China is the worlds premier rising economy, it has the worlds largest population and has the ability to build lots quickly, its time to think big, think efficient and work towards a goal.

:coffee:

[Indianfighter]

Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

Read the rules, one-liners aren't allowed, and questions like these should be either researched upon or asked in the FAQ, not now!

[Siddharth]

Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

Type 091 Han class (operational),
Type 092 Xia class (operational),
Type 093 (under development),
Type 094 (under development)

[tphuang]

No offence to anyone here but i my personal opinion is that the Chinese submarine force is a load of garbage apart from the Kilos and Yuans it operates. Even the new type 093 is said to be based on the Russian Victor class submarine.. a submarine that to the best of my knowledge is no longer even in service with the Russian navy. If i was in charge of procurement for the Chinese navy i would avoid designing and building indegenous nuclear submarines in the first place. It is obvious that the main threat to China navally is the United States and if you realistically hope to match them then you are wasting your time producing something as complex as a nuclear submarine with little or no experience and hoping that you can compete with a Los Angeles class or a Ohio.

This is what i would to do catch up both numerically and Technologically.

*Build as many Kilos under licence and Yuans as possible in order to secure the littoral approaches to the mainland as well as to be able to blockade the Western side of Taiwan, neutralise the Japanese and Indian navies etc.

*Secure the rights to produce the Akula and the Oscar class submarines from Russia, this could probably be secured under an arrangement that will see a joint Sino/Russian production facility located in China where the submarines are built and an understanding that this facility will also provide maintenance and production of submarines for Russia at a reduced cost. (money talks bullshit walks)

*Purchase 4 - 6 New build Typhoons from Russia (They will take care of your second strike capabilities for at least the next 25 years if maintained correctly, and experience shows that one thing the Chinese are very good at is maintenance).

Once this is done China can concentrate on building more of the new classes of surface vessels it has aleady designed, in my opinion the Chinese navy needs the following to be considered a serious Blue Water Navy

4 - 8 Carriers with an ability to carry at least 36-48 A/C
30 Advanced Destroyers (Type Type 51/52 variants)
40 General Purpose Frigates (Type 53)
4-6 Typhoons
8-12 Oscars
18-24 Akulas

It sounds a lot but China is the worlds premier rising economy, it has the worlds largest population and has the ability to build lots quickly, its time to think big, think efficient and work towards a goal.

:coffee:

not as bad as you think. 093 was originally compared to Victor III, which last got commissionned in 1994 in Russia. But it has been said that it's probably more advanced than that due to the usage of much newer COTS parts and Russian parts used on the latest SSN. The 094 is said to be quieter than typhoon according to certain sources.

As for Kilos, we would you want more kilos when the more advanced Yuan is available and when Lada is available for purchase. Either way, whether you get Kilos or Yuan, they are going to get detected by the Americans, so you might as well go with the indigenous design which is cheaper.

As for the SSNs and SSGNs, they are just too expensive to purchase and maintain. Even PLAN has a limit on the stuff that it purchases. And besides, the Russian nuclear subs are known for their lack of reliability.

[swimmerXC]

Does China possess a nuclear submarine ? If not, then is it building one ?

We had a SSN since the late 1970's and SSBN since early 1980's.

Type 091 Han class (operational),
Type 092 Xia class (operational),
Type 093 (under development),
Type 094 (under development)

Ummm your list is a little inaccurate, 093 and 094 are not under development, they are already launched into the PLAN
All of these are Operational:
4~5 Type 091 Han class SSN
1 Type 092 Xia class SSBN
1~3 Type 093 Shang class SSN
According to Asian sources two were launched by late 2003, with a third being built at that time.
Source (http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.83/pub_detail.asp)
1 Type 094 Jin class SSBN
In June 2004, the PLA launched its first second-generation Type 094 Jin class SSBN. In contrast to the long-gestating and troubled Type 092 Xia-class, the Type 094 is expected to constitute China's first reliable nuclear second-strike force within the next year or two.
Source (http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/03/1813965)

[Gollevainen]

(again golly comes and minimalizes china, what does he think he's doing??:mad: )

Sorry, But once again i must hold your horses for you...

The 093 and 094 are still mysterious, there is no solid evidence that the boats are launched, only rumours..., Strategycenter is know of sometimes making overstatements.

It may be so, but again it may not be. So lets not claim something solid as there isen't nothing to rely on.

Now before you jump in and say, "hey but golly we proove you wrong at the 051C issue, so you are wrong now as we--" I must remind you that I will admitt being wrong, but only after I've been proven so, and that usually takes bit more than just hearing something said by the maintenance man who heard it from the company's horsemens...

[swimmerXC]

(again golly comes and minimalizes china, what does he think he's doing??:mad: )

Sorry, But once again i must hold your horses for you...

The 093 and 094 are still mysterious, there is no solid evidence that the boats are launched, only rumours..., Strategycenter is know of sometimes making overstatements.

It may be so, but again it may not be. So lets not claim something solid as there isen't nothing to rely on.

Now before you jump in and say, "hey but golly we proove you wrong at the 051C issue, so you are wrong now as we--" I must remind you that I will admitt being wrong, but only after I've been proven so, and that usually takes bit more than just hearing something said by the maintenance man who heard it from the company's horsemens...

No hard feelings :rofl:
But you still forgot to count the SA-N-12 Grizzly on 52B
You know why 093 and 094 we can't see..
It's locked up in a CAVE
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9337/cave8xm.jpg

[Gollevainen]

The grizzly thing In my recall hasen't been seddled yet..;)

But if you see a gave, does it mean that there is a dragon inside?

[tphuang]

(again golly comes and minimalizes china, what does he think he's doing??:mad: )

Sorry, But once again i must hold your horses for you...

The 093 and 094 are still mysterious, there is no solid evidence that the boats are launched, only rumours..., Strategycenter is know of sometimes making overstatements.

It may be so, but again it may not be. So lets not claim something solid as there isen't nothing to rely on.

Now before you jump in and say, "hey but golly we proove you wrong at the 051C issue, so you are wrong now as we--" I must remind you that I will admitt being wrong, but only after I've been proven so, and that usually takes bit more than just hearing something said by the maintenance man who heard it from the company's horsemens...

lol, it's no wonder that you are speculative about 093 and 094. The only sources I read are Kanwa (who has an informant apparently) and old Richard's sources. Not exactly earth shattering evidence.

[sumdud]

No offence to anyone here but i my personal opinion is that the Chinese submarine force is a load of garbage apart from the Kilos and Yuans it operates. Even the new type 093 is said to be based on the Russian Victor class submarine.. a submarine that to the best of my knowledge is no longer even in service with the Russian navy. If i was in charge of procurement for the Chinese navy i would avoid designing and building indegenous nuclear submarines in the first place. It is obvious that the main threat to China navally is the United States and if you realistically hope to match them then you are wasting your time producing something as complex as a nuclear submarine with little or no experience and hoping that you can compete with a Los Angeles class or a Ohio.

This is what i would to do catch up both numerically and Technologically.

*Build as many Kilos under licence and Yuans as possible in order to secure the littoral approaches to the mainland as well as to be able to blockade the Western side of Taiwan, neutralise the Japanese and Indian navies etc.

*Secure the rights to produce the Akula and the Oscar class submarines from Russia, this could probably be secured under an arrangement that will see a joint Sino/Russian production facility located in China where the submarines are built and an understanding that this facility will also provide maintenance and production of submarines for Russia at a reduced cost. (money talks bullshit walks)

*Purchase 4 - 6 New build Typhoons from Russia (They will take care of your second strike capabilities for at least the next 25 years if maintained correctly, and experience shows that one thing the Chinese are very good at is maintenance).

Once this is done China can concentrate on building more of the new classes of surface vessels it has aleady designed, in my opinion the Chinese navy needs the following to be considered a serious Blue Water Navy

4 - 8 Carriers with an ability to carry at least 36-48 A/C
30 Advanced Destroyers (Type Type 51/52 variants)
40 General Purpose Frigates (Type 53)
4-6 Typhoons
8-12 Oscars
18-24 Akulas

It sounds a lot but China is the worlds premier rising economy, it has the worlds largest population and has the ability to build lots quickly, its time to think big, think efficient and work towards a goal.

:coffee:

Yes, building native SSNs aren't always satisfying, but at least it's a start.
You are not going to expect China to always stay there building nothing at all are you?

Plus, it might not be good to build SSNs, but it is worse to buy them from elsewhere!
I hope you know other countries will not allow China to buy foreign nuclear submarines. Plus, China has greatly improved the J-7(Now don't try to drift off topic.), why can't it improve on the Victor? Also, you do know that Russian subs aren't always the best right? Radiation leakage in them is usually a problem.

[tphuang]

Yes, building native SSNs aren't always satisfying, but at least it's a start.
You are not going to expect China to always stay there building nothing at all are you?

Plus, it might not be good to build SSNs, but it is worse to buy them from elsewhere!
I hope you know other countries will not allow China to buy foreign nuclear submarines. Plus, China has greatly improved the J-7(Now don't try to drift off topic.), why can't it improve on the Victor? Also, you do know that Russian subs aren't always the best right? Radiation leakage in them is usually a problem.
before anyone thinks of buying or leasing a Russian sub, they should think about the Chernobyl crisis first, lol. And let's just say, there is far less insulation for SSNs than nuclear reactors. That's why I'm really hoping this pebble bed thing can take off for military uses.

[Finn McCool]

The whole problem with buying Russian subs is that they are Cold War era, and not even the best Cold War era technologies. Now, I understand that they are still very capable, deadly, etc....however if China wants to close the technology gap between it and the United States its going to have to develop subs indigenously, and it cannot continue to rely on Russian technology that is a generation behind the USNs latest class/improvments. The PLAN can expand its own capabilites with time. Time is on its side anyway right? China is the rising great power.