France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

[crazyinsane105]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2800/janespn10gz.jpg
(Janes source)


French cut for navy on sub deal

Josy Joseph
Sunday, February 19, 2006 02:25 IST



NEW DELHI: If all goes well for French arms manufacturer DCN, it would be building Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy and a new-generation submarine for Pakistan, side by side in the same shipyard.

This scenario has caused alarm in the Indian security establishment, which is looking at ways to convey its concern to France as President Jacques Chirac arrives in New Delhi on Sunday evening for a three-day visit. Though the navy is reluctant to go on record, a senior officer said, “We will put forth our concerns.”

DCN’s audacity in approaching the Pakistan Navy and offering a new generation of submarines within months of sealing the Rs13,000 crore Scorpene deal with India has not gone down well with New Delhi.

Defence experts are keenly watching the upcoming visit of a Pakistani naval delegation, led by an admiral-rank officer, to the DCN shipyard at Cherbourg, where work on the Scorpenes has begun.

The navy says there is not much it can do in the matter as both are “commercial deals” and cannot be prevented on any technical grounds. But it says it is “unethical” of DCN to have approached Pakistan so soon after closing the deal with India, and hopes Paris will prevent it from closing the deal.

But such hopes may not amount to much. Uttam Datt, a Delhi high court advocate specialising in commercial litigation, said, “An exclusivity clause is very common in all commercial negotiations, more so in this kind of a contract, where the whole objective is to get superiority over your adversary. That advantage is lost if your adversary gets access to the same equipment.”

Datt said that unless he saw the contract, he would not be able to comment on the success of the navy’s negotiators in inserting an exclusivity clause. “But on the face of it, the navy could have technically stopped DCN from supplying similar kind of machines to Pakistan at least for some time,” he said.

DCN is no stranger to Pakistan, having supplied three Agosta 90B submarines to the country under a contract signed in 1994.

The first of the Agosta class submarines was built in the same Cherbourg shipyard. The remaining two were being assembled in Karachi when 11 French engineers working on the project were killed in a terrorist attack in May 2002.

http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1013719

The French sure know how to make money. Anyway, new generation of subs? The subs will be diesel, but what new features will there be? My guess is new types of torpedoes, a better AIP system, LACM capability, and a better sonar system. What do you guys think?

[tphuang]

Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?

[crazyinsane105]

Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?

Quite possibly. The French have handed out ToT's to both Pakistan and to India so I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan takes this opportunity once again. Above that, the third Agosta 90B submarine will most likely be inducted in 2007 since its is being fitted with the AIP system.

[FreeAsia2000]

what's the name for this new generation submarine ?

DCN says on it's website that it offers 'integrated solutions'

Does that mean that this submarine will be integrated into

the new surface vessel system Pakistan is getting from America ?

Current Capabilities

The Pakistani Navy currently operates a fleet of eight diesel-electric submarines.[1] The vessels are based in Karachi, but in the future they are to be based at Port Ormara.[1] The main submarine fleet is comprised of four aging Daphne-class units, two Agosta-70 boats, as well as two modern Agosta-90B submarines, all of French design. An additional Agosta-90B is under construction. The final Agosta 90B will feature DCN's air-independent propulsion system, MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome), with which the two earlier Agosta-90B vessels will be retrofitted in the future. Pakistan has also announced its intention to construct additional submarines, in order to maintain its conventional deterrent against India.[2,3] The Pakistani Navy also has four Italian-designed midget submarines. These vessels, as well as the newest Agosta-90B boats, are being constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works.[4]

During the 1971 war between India and Pakistan, India effectively blockaded Karachi, Pakistan's only major harbor. Pakistani efforts to curtail India's naval supremacy were largely limited to its submarine force, which was able to sink an Indian frigate.[5] Drawing on these experiences and the perceived threat posed by a larger Indian Navy, Pakistan has been continuously investing in its submarine force, within the constraints posed by its economy.

An effective sea-denial capability is of utmost importance to Pakistan, as 95 percent of its imports are transported by ship.[6] Consequently, Pakistan's Navy in general and submarine flotilla in particular are tasked with protecting Pakistani maritime interests and guaranteeing the security of its sea lanes, and thus its access, to the northern Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea.[6,7,8]

In February 2001, the Pakistani Navy publicly considered the deployment of nuclear weapons aboard its submarines, arguing that it had to keep pace with developments in India.[9] However, in January 2003 Pakistan rescinded its statement, explaining that such an endeavor would be too costly.[10] Yet, shortly afterwards, a high-ranking naval officer stated that while Pakistan currently did not plan to arms its submarines with nuclear weapons, it would do so if forced.[11] Some have alleged that Pakistan is able to mount a nuclear device onto its French-provided SM39 Exocet missiles; however, this is currently unlikely due to the difficulty involved in building a nuclear warhead small enough for the missile (the Exocet normally carries a 165 kg warhead).[12,13]
Khalid (Agosta 90B)
Displacement, tons: 1,510 surfaced
1,760 submerged (1,960 with MESMA)
Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
(67.6×6.8×5.4)
Main machinery: Hybrid diesel-electric/MESMA AIP
Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
20 submerged
Range, miles: 8,500 at 9kt snorting; 350 at 3.5kt submerged, quadrupled at 4kt with MESMA
Complement: 36 (7 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 1,050 (320)
Endurance: 68 days
Weapons: 4 SSMs and 16 torpedoes; four 21in (533mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, p. 537.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk/FLEET/MAIN PAGE.htm

Hashmat (Agosta 70)
Displacement, tons: 1,490 surfaced
1,740 submerged PNS KHALID (AGOSTA 90-B CLASS)
Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
(67.6×6.8×5.4)
Main machinery: Diesel-electric
Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
20 submerged
Range, miles: 8,500 at 9 knots surfaced
350 at 3.5 knots submerged
Complement: 59 (8 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
Endurance: Not available
Weapons: 20 SSMs and torpedoes; four 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, pp. 537-538.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk.

Hangor (Daphne)
Displacement, tons: 869 surfaced
1,043 submerged PNS HASMAT (AGOSTA CLASS)
Dimensions, ft (m): 189.6×22.3×15.1
(57.8×6.8×4.6)
Main machinery: diesel-electric
Speed, knots: 13 surfaced
15.5 submerged
Range, miles: 4,500 at 5 knots surfaced
3,000 at 7 knots snorting
Complement: 53 (7 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
Endurance: Not available
Weapons: 12 SSMs and torpedoes; twelve 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World p. 538.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002) p. 246-249.
Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk.

ACTIVE DUTY SUBMARINES
Name (Number) Class Base Builder Laid down Launched Commissioned
Hangor (S131) Hangor Karachi DCN (Naval Arsenal, Brest) January 1967 June 1969 January 1970
Shushuk (S132) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) January 1967 July 1969 January 1970
Mangro (S133) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) July 1968 February 1970 August 1970
Ghazi (ex-Cachalote)* (S135) Hangor Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) October 1966 February 1968 January 1969
Hashmat (ex-Astrant) (S135) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1976 December 1977 February 1979
Hurmat (ex-Adventurous) (S136) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1977 December 1978 February 1980
Khalid (S137) Khalid Karachi DCNI (Cherbourg) July 1995 August 1998 September 1999
Saad (S138) Khalid Karachi Karachi Shipyard June 1998 2000 December 2003
Hamza (S139) Khalid Karachi Shipyard January 1997 2005 2006

*Purchased second-hand from Portugal.
Sources:
A.D. Baker III, Combat Fleets of the World: 2000-2001 (Annapolis: U.S. Naval Institute, 2000).
"Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website, http://www.globalsecurity.org
Zarar Khan, "Pakistan inducts first locally built submarine into navy," Associated Press, December 12, 2003; in Lexis-Nexis, http://web.lexis-nexis.com.

Sources:
[1]Abhijit Bhattacharyya, "Rise of an oily Navy," The Pioneer, August 9, 2000; in "Indian daily views implications of shifting of Pak Navy bases," FBIS Document SAP20000809000038.
[2] Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah, as cited in Zarar Khan, "Pakistan navy to get four frigates from China," Associated Press, September 15, 2004; in Lexis-Nexis, http://web.lexis-nexis.com.
[3]Edward C. Whitman, "Air-Independent Propulsion: AIP Technology Creates A New Undersea Threat," U.S. Navy Website, http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_13/propulsion.htm.
[4] "Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website, http://www.globalsecurity.org.
[5] Jacques Isnard, "A Navy to a large extent under France's wing," Le Monde online edition, http://www.lemonde.fr, May 9, 2002; in "Report details close links between France and Pakistani Navy," FBIS Document EUP20020509000030.
[6] Interview with Admiral Fasih Bokhari, Chief of Naval Staff, "The importance of the Pakistani Navy for its country's security," Naval Forces, 1999, Vol. 20, No. 1, pp. 22-25; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb.
[7] Interview with Admiral Shahid Karimullah, Chief of Naval Staff, Pakistani Navy by Wolfgang Legien; in "Austral-Asian security comments: Navy chiefs interviewed by Naval Forces editor-in-chief," Naval Forces, 2003, No. 2, pp.55; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb.
[8] "PN’s achievement," The News, August 27, 2002; in "Pakistan daily sees critical role for Navy as protector of country’s coastline," FBIS Document SAP20020827000076.
[9] Zahid Hussain Karachi, "Pakistan May Put Nukes on Submarines," Associated Press, February 22, 2001. http://www.nukewatch.org/media/more_media/03-00-01/PMPNOS.html.
[10] "Pak Rules Out Nuclear Platform for Subs, To Upgrade Navy," The Press Trust of India Limited, January 15, 2003; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
[11] "World Roundup," The Miami Herald, January 26, 2003, p13. Herald Wire Services; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
[12] "Pakistan launches locally built submarine," Pak News online edition, http://paknews.com, August 25, 2002.
[13] "Exocet AM.39 / MM.40," Federation of American Scientists Website, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/exocet.htm.



http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/pakistan/index.html

Please also see for why it's such a bad idea for India...


As regards the fact that Pakistan navy is the only enemy force against which the Indian navy is currently pitted against, it is not advisable to possess submarines from the same supplier. In this case the DCN may have agreed not to sell the Scorpene to Pakistan as has been promised to the Pakistan navy that it would not sell the Agosta- 90B to India, but it is possible for the adversary to understand the exploitation doctrine of each others submarine.

Besides, there already exists the infrastructure and assembly line including trained human resource that built the Type 209 Shishumar class submarines. It would be a great folly to allow this trained human resource of technicians and builders to be left to decay and building a new set of technical experts that would involve greater fiscal resources. At the same time it is advisable to stick to one source and prevent such a wide inventory, especially since HDW and DCN are sales rivals.

(Dr Vijay Sakhuja is Maritime Security analyst and Research Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi.The views expressed are his own)

http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers14%5Cpaper1382.html

[DPRKUnderground]

They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.

[unknown]

what's the name for this new generation submarine ?

the name given by fench to that project is Marlin..

[crazyinsane105]

They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.

Pakistan doesn't need a nuclear submarine. Too costly to maintain and France won't be too keen of handing over sub nuke tech to another country. As a matter of fact, the only country that shares its sub nuke tech is Russia.

[FreeAsia2000]

There isn't a lot of info on project Marlin.

Anybody have any specific info ?

[ajaybhutani]

They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.
can u please elaborate more on babur?? is it some slbm/slcm?

[crazyinsane105]

There isn't a lot of info on project Marlin.

Anybody have any specific info ?

Since it is a new generation sub, I doubt there will be much info available. It seems like the media will be kept in the dark about this project for some time to come. Maybe this is Pakistan's response to the ATV?

To ajaybhutani, the Babur is a cruise missile that Pakistan has in its arsenal which was finally revealed in August of 2005. Many news outlets have reported that Pakistan is planning to make an air-launched and sub launched version of the Babur and the range may also be extended to 1000 km.

[crazyinsane105]

Here is another article I just found:



Pakistan Seeks 3 Subs From France
New Design Would Free DCN of Spanish Partnership
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Pakistani interest in three attack submarines is forcing France to make hard decisions over industrial interests vested in the DCN naval systems company and diplomatic and economic relations with Spain and India, analysts said.

Islamabad intends to spend $1 billion to $1.2 billion on three patrol submarines, preferably of a new design from DCN but possibly of the German 214 class, a Pakistani official said.

But the potential sale of high-tech weapons to Pakistan may be too much for the French government to swallow. The deal would steady employment at DCN’s Cherbourg sub yard, but would likely antagonize India, with whom Paris recently signed a defense agreement. New Delhi also is a submarine customer, having recently purchased six of DCN’s Scorpene attack subs.

The sale of an all-French design also might raise hackles in Spain. The Spanish are partners in building the Scorpene, but Spain’s Navantia yard is teaming with Lockheed Martin on its S-80 boat.

The Pakistani official said Islamabad “is interested in a single-hull submarine,” distinct from quieter, more expensive double-hulled boats. “We have made it known there is a requirement for three submarines.”
Islamabad wants a formal offer within six months from Armaris, the naval marketing joint venture of DCN and French systems house Thales, so it can order the subs within a year, the official said.

The country also is looking to buy 25 to 30 highly capable fighter aircraft, and is considering the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the official said. A Pakistani delegation is due to go to Italy next month to see the Typhoon go through flight trials, he said.

The pursuit of the Pakistan deal shows DCN wants to develop new subs for export.

“This is a logical move, given DCN’s strong installed base in SSKs [diesel-powered attack submarines] and the attractions of the SSK market,” said Sash Tusa, an analyst at brokerage Goldman Sachs.
But going it alone might be seen as undermining all the recent talk of building European defense, French government and industry executives said.

The submarine sale underlines the clash between industrial and diplomatic interests for France, an analyst said.

“Industry needs it, but the French government does not want to contribute to a potential arms race in the region and cannot afford to upset India,” said Loic Tribot La Spiere, chief executive of the think tank Centre d’Etude et Prospective Strategique.

French military ties with Pakistan date back three decades. The Pakistani Navy was an early export customer of DCN’s Daphne submarine in the mid-1960s, setting the bar for other navies that operated near the Persian Gulf. Pakistan bought three Agosta 90B boats, dubbed the Khalid class, in the mid-1990s. Pakistan’s Air Force has flown the French-built Dassault Mirage III and V fighters.

This longstanding relationship gives DCN an edge in the competition, the Pakistani official said.

“We know their processes, their procedures,” the official said.

Wanted: Export Approval

But if Paris withholds export approval, Pakistan might turn to the 214 submarine built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), part of Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. It also might consider buying the subs from China, he said.

DCN is keen to sell, but has had trouble prying export approval from the high-level Commission Interministérielle D’exportation des Matériels de Guerre.

Officially, Armaris has not proposed a new submarine, because it lacks approval for an offer from the committee. But that did not prevent Armaris officials from making an informal product briefing on a DCN design to a Pakistani delegation led by a senior naval officer in mid-February, here.
The Pakistani official said delegation members were given to understand that DCN had been cleared by the export committee to make an offer. A French industry executive, however, said there is no offer because clearance has been withheld.

And a French defense official said, “The attitude towards Pakistan is a very cautious one, where great prudence is needed.”
Armaris declined comment. The Ministry of Defense spokesman was not immediately available. The Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister’s office referred questions to the Ministry of Defense.
A DCN spokeswoman said the company did not discuss its clients and declined comment.

Still, the Pakistani official said his government expects a formal offer next month from Armaris.

DCN’s new design, code-named Marlin, closely resembles the 10-year-old Scorpene design, but would include newer technology, including features of the Barracuda nuclear attack boats to be built for the French Navy.
Marlin would have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) unit, the Pakistani official said. AIP, an alternative to batteries, allows longer periods of running submerged. Pakistan’s third and last Agosta boat is being fitted with a Mesma AIP system, and the two earlier boats will be retrofitted.
Pakistan has not asked for the Scorpene because it does not want to buy the same product as the Indian Navy.

DCN barely made any money on the Agosta deal, the French defense official said. He said it was unlikely the French government would agree to sell new subs at basement prices, the official said.
Pakistan said it got a bad deal because it paid $1.2 billion for the three subs, including a 50 percent down payment on signing in 1994, and the program is three years late.

Independence from Spain

If a Pakistan deal can be struck, DCN would regain the ability to export subs without Spanish participation.

In 1997, the French company partnered with Navantia predecessor Bazan to design the Scorpene because it lacked enough money to do it alone. But healthy sales have padded DCN’s cash accounts to some 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion), giving it enough money to invest in its own design.
Still, the Spanish connection was key to selling Scorpene to Chile, which opened up the Latin American market. But when Navantia installed a combat management system from Lockheed Martin, DCN officials took the rejection of a similar French system as a snub.

One French analyst said Navantia’s purchase of the Lockheed system was influenced by the U.S. administration, which is seeking a way to keep its 2001 pledge to sell eight diesel subs to Taiwan. Since Spain has limited trade with China, Madrid could sell the S-80s to Taiwan with little economic consequences, the analyst said.

Into the balance must be thrown France’s relations with India, which has just bought six Scorpene subs armed with MBDA anti-ship missiles. French President Jacques Chirac visited India and signed a defense agreement on Feb. 19 aimed at boosting industrial cooperation, as well as a preliminary pact to help New Delhi develop civil nuclear energy.

During Chirac’s visit, India’s state airline formally inked a purchase of 43 Airbus airliners, worth $2.5 billion at list price, and 15 ATR regional turboprops.

Dassault Aviation is waiting to see the terms of India’s tender for 126 combat aircraft, and is ready to pitch the Rafale fighter jet, having withdrawn the Mirage 2000-5 from competition.

Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.

[DPRKUnderground]

can u please elaborate more on babur?? is it some slbm/slcm?

It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.

[FreeAsia2000]

It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.

Isn't the Babur subsonic ? what use is a subsonic slbm ?

[DPRKUnderground]

Isn't the Babur subsonic ? what use is a subsonic slbm ?

The Tomahawk is subsonic and it works. It's low flying and it has it's advantages. More accurate than a missile skimming at mach 2.3.

[Astra]

It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Its a Chinese made cruise missile isnt it?

[FreeAsia2000]

It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Its a Chinese made cruise missile isnt it?

It's called the Babur and no it's not Chinese or joint Sino-Pak. It seem's the Pakistani
military is planning well ahead. The PN has been a poor cousin to the army for way too long

Anyway lets see

On October 14, 2005, the government of the Netherlands decided to buy 30 Tomahawks from Raytheon. The Netherlands will be the third country to use the Tomahawk Block IV cruise missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy

So which one's of those ships can use the Tomahawk ? I'm guessing here that the
Tomahawk's are for the 4 "Zeven Provinciën" Class Air Defense Destroyers (LCF Destroyers, officially classified as frigates but in size and role they are destroyers) and so presumably Pakistan wants some Air Defense destroyers against Aircraft Carriers?

Some information here http://www.kitsune.addr.com/LCF/information.htm

[PakTopGun]

Isnt it ironic that whatever few arms sources Pakistan has gets sudden large orders from India(exception-China). Pakistan had been flying the Mirage's for quite some time and was naturally expected to go for the 2000 series, what did India doo, they purchased it in the 80's(just about the same time Pakistan was expected to purchase it). Then Pakistan, a known user of Daphne and recently-Agusta submarine developing a more more advanced versioon of them(the basis for the Scorpene submarine) further gets a stark reminder when France(DCN) sells the Scorpene Subs to India. While India diversifies its purchases to levels beyond operational controls it has left Pakistan baffled as to what procurement path it should take. I am hoping the Pakistani open up a new procurement chapter and opt for Swedish or other(too bad chinese subs arent up to par yet) sources so that maybe 10 years down the line, the Indians will spitefully(more out of fear and confusion) purchase the future models of that too and in the process, cause so much confusion in its own armed forces that operational costs will go skyrocketing and more of its people are forced to sell their children and sleep on the streets! History has shown, that Pakistan is a resilient nation indeed and time will only prove this in the end:coffee:

[Diving Falcon]

History has also shown that countries who blank out Pakistan in favour for a possible Indian order lose out more than they gain. We all remember that France was hesitant to sell Mirage 2000-5Mk2s to Pakistan (an order worth 3 billion US dollars) in 2002-2004; India's 126 Mirage 2000-5 "deal" was responsible for this. Suddenly in March 2005...U.S agrees to sell F-16s to Pakistan and India opens up a NEW tender; there goes all prospects to sell Mirages to ANY country.

The submarine deal is going down the same road, in the end a Chinese or German manufacturer will get it. PN wants to buy 3-5 new submarines - for a greater cost than India's Scorpenes; now France is awaiting for a possible Rafale order by India (unlikely).

Kind of sad that roughly 4-5bn USD worth of sales were lost in return for an Indian promise :)

[jawad]

PTV WORLD NEWS MORNING Today

Pakistan will launch its third indigenously built submarine, AGOSTA 90-B (PNS HAMZA) tomorrow
Few points from this programe

It is 76 meters long and weighs around 2,000 tons

Share of Pakistani private sector has increased by 50% in PNS HAMSA as compared to last A-90B submarine (PNS SAAD)

MESMA air-independent propulsion system will allow the AGOSTA 90B class submarine to remain submerged three times longer

He said that PN is negotiating for 5 next generation submarines

8 submarines is minimum figure for PN and submarine fleet will increase in number in future

At this moment PN can manufacture one submarine in two year and this rate will be maintained to keep work force and infrastructure intact


PN needs Land attack capability and that can be added when ever Govt take such decision

Next submarines negotiations include

1)Talk to reduce time period to one year per submarine

2)30% of this contract will be made by Pakistani private sector and foreign contactors are already in Pakistan working with private sector
---------------------------------------------------------------


lastnight in interview on PTV By Ikram Sehgal naval chief said that PN negotiations for next generation submarines will complete in next few months

He also said that PN wants first boat to be made in pakistan but selling dockyard wants lead boat to be construct it in their yard

[Indianfighter]

We all remember that France was hesitant to sell Mirage 2000-5Mk2s to Pakistan (an order worth 3 billion US dollars) in 2002-2004; India's 126 Mirage 2000-5 "deal" was responsible for this. Suddenly in March 2005...U.S agrees to sell F-16s to Pakistan and India opens up a NEW tender; there goes all prospects to sell Mirages to ANY country.
The above statement is inaccurate. Other than the proposal for 126 MRCA, no other proposal has been announced by India. The F-16 aircraft is a candidate considered by India despite it being offered to Pakistan.
Pakistan will launch its third indigenously built submarine, AGOSTA 90-B (PNS HAMZA) tomorrow
Agosta has been manufactured in Pakistan under licence. It cannot be termed as an indigenous development.

It is indeed true that the advancement of submarines of Pakistani Navy is greater than that of Indian Navy. While the former shall possess the next-generation submarines from France, the next-generation submarines for the Indian Navy relies on the completion of the ATV project (that has been under development since 1983).

[jawad]

Congratulations Pak Navy. First ever MESMA AIP Sub launched

Musharraf launches Agosta 90-B submarine in Karachi KARACHI, Aug 10 (APP) The second indigenously built Agosta 90-B submarine was launched at a ceremony here Thursday. President General Pervez Musharraf was the chief guest on the occasion. First Lady, Begum Sehba Musharraf, performed the launch of the submarine which was later named by the President as `Hamza'. It is the first submarine of the country fitted with the advanced MESMA Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system.(Posted @ 15:45 PST)

www.dawn.com

[jawad]

The above statement is inaccurate. Other than the proposal for 126 MRCA, no other proposal has been announced by India. The F-16 aircraft is a candidate considered by India despite it being offered to Pakistan.

Agosta has been manufactured in Pakistan under licence. It cannot be termed as an indigenous development.

It is indeed true that the advancement of submarines of Pakistani Navy is greater than that of Indian Navy. While the former shall possess the next-generation submarines from France, the next-generation submarines for the Indian Navy relies on the completion of the ATV project (that has been under development since 1983).
Mirage 2000-5 deal did not happned in 90s due to corruption charges worth 200m$ and in 2000 onward PAF did not wanted t
brother u quoted me
Pakistan will launch its third indigenously built submarine, AGOSTA 90-B (PNS HAMZA) tomorrow

i hope that ATV will be out there soon as indian developments always helps pakistan ;)

[FreeAsia2000]

Just read this interesting bit of news

The German business newspaper Handelsblatt reported on Monday that the UAE wants to buy hundreds of German military tanks and a number of submarines.

Citing government and industry sources, the newspaper said the sale was likely to be rubber-stamped shortly by the German government, which has already agreed on forming a "strategic partnership" with the UAE.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6EE2A6AA-1E16-4BBD-AD04-F3C585EE49CC.htm

Now for a while there has been an idea in Pakistan of building stronger military relations with the Gulf states as they are feeling threatened by regional powers. Obviously none of the Gulf states wants outside non-muslim powers intervening in the area because of the internal reaction.

Pakistan & UAE: Building a Community of Power
shireen

Contributing Editor Dr SHIREEN M MAZARI discusses the strong relationship between the UAE and PAKISTAN
In March there was news that Pakistan and the UAE were involved in a cooperative dialogue. This was a positive development in the region which should bode well for both countries. Given this author's premise that global relations will, in the future, evolve around the concept of Communities of Power, an evolving cooperative framework could be the beginnings of a community of power in this region.

What exactly is a community of power? As defined by this writer, it describes interstate relations at multiple levels encompassing economic, social and cultural linkages and interdependence, where the military factor is one of the inputs. It is this level that is becoming increasingly more important, with states grouping together after identifying multiple levels of congruent interests. And it is this multiple-level state interaction that is going to define international relations more and more - where the military factor, while still an important part of the equation, will be simply one of the factors defining global relations. Within such a framework what one will see are not 'poles' of power or 'centres' of power, but communities of power - where 'community' denotes multipolarity of interests and 'power' denotes the element of military and/or economic force. For Pakistan, it is this framework that must be developed, regionally and globally - and for the UAE such an option means a multiplication of power potential within the global and regional system of states.

From a Pakistani perspective, there are minimal grounds of dissension with the UAE and numerous factors of commonality, and the same is true for the UAE in relation to Pakistan. Apart from the underlying Islamic bonding, there is already a history of military cooperation between the two countries and Pakistan has provided a spate of advisers to the ruling houses of the Emirate Kingdoms. In addition, there is a personal affinity between many of these ruling families and Pakistan and private visits to this country are frequent for members of the ruling families.

On the other side, Pakistanis form a large chunk of the massive expatriate community in the UAE - from workers to businesspeople to technocrats. And the element of military cooperation still remains active at various levels, including the presence of officers from the UAE at the various military academies and colleges in Pakistan. So the question then arises as to why Pakistan and the UAE should seek the building of a community of interest which would involve more formalised cooperation at the economic, social and military levels?

Rationale for Pakistan

From Pakistan's perspective, a cooperative relationship with the UAE forms an ideal basis for developing a larger community of power in West and Central Asia over the long term. Pakistan would eventually offer the ideal bridge between these two regions. And of all the possible partners for the building of a community of power, the UAE is in many ways the most ideal choice for Pakistan.

One, there already exist many levels of formal and informal interaction and cooperation between the UAE and Pakistan. So Pakistan can build on these foundations.

Two, despite all these linkages the UAE on many fronts continues to tread a very careful path on conflictual issues between Pakistan and India. For instance, on the issue of Kashmir the press in the UAE has strict instructions to follow a moderate middle path so that neither the Pakistanis nor the Indians have reason to be 'upset'. This is because the Indians have a greater degree of penetration into the UAE - at the unofficial level especially. Indian business has a massive presence within the UAE that penetrates all sectors from industry to the press. Indian workers and technocrats are also present in huge numbers and the Indian entertainment industry has already invaded UAE society. And the Indian government has very successfully compelled the UAE into adopting an 'even-handed' approach on issues such as the Kashmir issue. So, despite all the economic assistance that the UAE is ready to dole out, Pakistan needs to move towards a more encompassing formal alliance with the UAE to move the latter away from the so-called 'even-handed' approach.

Three, the location of the UAE offers a natural basis for a security alliance in the region, offering Pakistan a strategic rear in terms of naval and air power. Also, the British-Pakistani organizational structures of the armed forces of both Pakistan and the UAE would allow a natural military cooperative base.

Four, with no outstanding political issues or competing political ambitions, it would be relatively easy for the two countries to move towards formal alliance-building.

Five, Pakistan can - if it can overcome its own sectarian divides - act as a natural bridge, over the long term, between the UAE and Iran through into Central Asia. With the economic power of the UAE and the military power of Pakistan, a viable community of interest can be built up beginning with a cooperative alliance between the UAE and Pakistan. Pakistan can provide the base for a security arrangement for Central Asian states as well as West Asian states. After all, if the Germans and French could resolve their very substantive political differences, and Christian sectarian issues died a natural death within interstate relations of Christian Europe, there is no reason why Pakistan cannot act as an arbiter to resolve any Arab(UAE)-Iranian differences. Given the new notion of communities of power, Islam is now a critical factor to be considered in power formulations - and, given the military weaknesses of most West and Central Asian states, Pakistan is ideally placed to be the focal point of a defence pact along the lines of NATO. After all, if the West considers NATO not only a continuing viability but also within an expanded framework, then the model is also viable for other regions where a core military power exists. The strength of this core state will be relative to that of the other regional states - with no need for a comparison between the NATO core state and this state.

Rationale for UAE

If the UAE wants to move beyond simply being an oil-rich entity, which for the present attracts Western indulgence, and convert its economic might into overall multiple levels of power to become a significant regional actor, then it needs to evolve formal alliance structures with other states of the region. That it has the economic base to evolve a community of power should not be wasted, but why should it look towards Pakistan?

One, Pakistan has already proved to be an ideal partner for military cooperation with the UAE, in a limited fashion. also, Pakistan has a natural respect and affinity for the rulers and people of the UAE and the relationship has many substantive levels at which it now operates.

Two, a nuclear Pakistan offers the professional and military inputs needed to build a community of power.

Three, such an alliance will, over a period of time, reduce the UAE's technological and military dependence on the West. In other words, it will simply be looking to the West as a buyer with other choices - and will not need to have a security dependency on the West which it has at present.

Four, not only does the UAE need to diversify its oil-based economic power, it can, with Pakistan, become a critical regional actor so that it can fully exploit its geopolitical potential.

Five, it can act as the base for a further nexus of alliances with the rest of the Arab world from a position of strength and solidity. Moreover, within a community of power framework it can also become an effective actor within the global arena of international institutions.

Six, it has the potential to become an important regional power only within such a framework as so many smaller Western European states have done through the EU, NATO or the notion of the Nordic Council. In one shape or another, it has been not simply a community of interest that has made these groupings influential, it has been a community of power in one form or another - based of course on a commonality of multiple levels of interest and coalescing identities. For the UAE, there is more potential in a formal alliance and commitment in a community of power with Pakistan than in simply walking the diplomatic and political tightrope between Pakistan and India. Also, it needs to become less dependent upon the West both militarily and economically and, on both these counts, a nuclear Pakistan allows the UAE greater choices. After all, simply becoming a financial magnet in the region is not enough - look what happened to the economically prosperous and developed Lebanon as it was rent apart by external armed interventionist forces.

Finally, for both Pakistan and the UAE, uniting together in a formal community of power will mean less manoeuvrability for obscurantism forces. In fact this will hold true as more and more Islamic states coalesce together - and as the Arab world and Iran reach a substantive base of understanding and cooperation which is a real possibility within the community of power framework.

So what would be the blueprint for such a Community of Power?

Blueprint

The multiple levels of interlinkages between Pakistan and the UAE that identify a sense of 'community' of interests have been identified above. As for the underlying 'power' element needed for the establishment of a community of power, Pakistan's nuclear capability provides a solid dimension to the military element of power - with the UAE buttressing this power foundation with the required economic strength. So how does the community of power translate itself into a reality?

Building the power base

The first formal structure that needs to be created is a military alliance since that is the base of the community of power. Between Pakistan and the UAE such an alliance would in many of its dimensions simply be the formalisation of multiple levels of military cooperation that has existed between these entities. Also, the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council) provides a limited military cooperative framework which could be transformed into a wider military alliance between the GCC members and Pakistan. Of course, in such an instance the Western military inputs would be reduced and eliminated and replaced by a Pakistani military presence.

A formal military alliance between the UAE and Pakistan would need to comprise inter alia the following terms and commitments:

One: That the alliance would be a collective defence pact in keeping with the terms of the UN Charter, where an attack or intent to attack any one of the member states would be seen as an attack against the whole collectively.

Two: The geographical framework of the pact would have to be defined clearly and would include the entrance to the Persian Gulf as well as a reasonable security zone beyond Pakistan's territorial waters. The land frontiers of the pact members would be the other geographical bounds of the pact.

Three: There would need to be a built-in provision for the natural expansion of this community of power at a later date to eventually include - if those states so desired - other states of the Arabian peninsula and Iran. Or there could be an arrangement between this community of power and another one which could evolve between Pakistan, Iran and the Central Asian states. With Pakistan as the common denominator, the suspicions and antagonisms between the Arab World and Iran could be mitigated over a period of time.

Four: There would be joint command of the alliance military forces, but if at a future date nuclear weapons were deployed on UAE soil, military control would rest solely with the Pakistanis.

Five: That there would be standardisation of all military hardware and weapon systems as well as force structures.

Six: A first step in building a formal military alliance would be the establishment of a Pakistani military presence in the UAE in terms of bases and weapons deployments. The geography of the pact would demand a greater investment and focus on naval and air deployments - with a blue water navy becoming a necessity over a period of time.

Seven: The economics of such an alliance would be worked out keeping in mind some of the earlier arrangements that involved limited military cooperation between Pakistan and the UAE. For the UAE, such an alliance would allow it to end Western military intrusions from Britain and the USA - and that would have a financial aspect also.

Included in the dynamics of such an alliance would be the technical infrastructure which could be located in the UAE and in Pakistan. Also, an extensive intelligence gathering network would have to be set-up in the UAE. By its very nature, such an alliance would expand the power projection of both the UAE and Pakistan, especially given the economic dynamics of energy and oil that emanate from this region. The UAE would not be seen as it is presently seen - as a unidimensional oil-rich state that also provides a pleasurable lifestyle but little else in terms of international political weightage. For the location and economic potential of the UAE should translate into a more substantive international presence.

Economic cooperation

Building on the military power base, economic cooperation leading to an eventual common market would be the thrust of the community of power. Luckily, in the case of the UAE and Pakistan the private sector is already heavily involved in cooperative ventures - especially Pakistani technocrats and business people moving into the UAE market. However, a major drawback is the unwillingness of the UAE government to allow foreigners to own property. Eventually, within a community of power, the UAE will have to liberalise many of its present laws relating to business and property. On the other side, UAE nationals, including their ruling families, already own property in Pakistan and are involved in social welfare projects around the areas where they own major real estate. The exact nature of how the ownership rights have been worked out are not public knowledge, but there is a feeling that the UAE ruling families have a fair amount of freedom of action in this field.

Pakistan has to clean up its infrastructure to attract economic investment - and merely having formal alliances will not do this unless the indigenous climate is investor-friendly. Such an alliance should be a strong motivating force for this clean-up.

Free movement of peoples - especially professionals - will evolve once Pakistan is able to curtail the problem of illegal migrant workers. A formal community of power will also act as a strong deterrent for obscurantist proselytising forces as well as reducing safe havens and refuges for terrorists.

Again, a more formalised cooperative framework would enable the UAE and other Gulf countries to send oil pipelines across Pakistan into South Asia within a secure security arrangement which would also address Pakistan's problems on that score.

Political & social sector cooperation

Political cooperation in terms of coordination of foreign policies would give both Pakistan and the UAE a weightier presence in international organisations and in other international fora.

Within the UN, this community of power could be the beginnings of seeking to restructure the UN along the lines of giving such groupings permanent representation within a completely revamped UN system.

Again, Pakistan could also give the necessary weightage to a collective Arab world approach to the whole Palestinian problem including recognition of Israel. And there are many more opportunities for similar collective policy formulations within the regional and global levels. Moving beyond the purely political, Pakistan can also offer the skilled manpower in many fields where presently the UAE employs Western professionals at very high cost - such as the medical and teaching professions. Cultural affinities also add to the benefits from such cooperation. All in all, by building a community of power Pakistan and the UAE can evolve a progressive Islamic polity which can be a forerunner for other such communities of power.

In the post bipolar world, what is not being grasped by the Islamic world is the fact that gradually the West is building up a psychosis in its polities against Islam - very similar to what Hitler did in relation to the Jews. This is what a sensitive Westerner married to a Pakistani and living in Pakistan pointed out last week after witnessing an anti-Muslim tirade from a UN employee. And unless the Muslim world is prepared, it will be overwhelmed by this anti-Islamic onslaught of the West. After all, lessons of history must be learned, not ignored. And since Pakistan is the only Muslim country to have a nuclear capability, it must use the opportunities that the capability offers to forge a sense of community amongst the Muslim countries of the region - but this sense of community can only become effective when it is backed by power. Hence the need to build communities of power which are founded on a power base and reflect multiple levels of cooperation and interaction.

Now the first part of the above idea has taken place with the UAE agreeing to invest about $10 billion in Gwadar.

and it seems that military co-operation between the countries is now being strengthened for part 2

UAE, Pakistan sign military cooperation agreement
posted on 30/04/2006
Lt. General Hamad Mohammed Thani Al Rumaithi, Chief of UAE Army Staff, received yesterday General Ehsan Ul Haq, Pakistani Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, who is currently on a visit to the UAE. During the meeting that was attended by a number of officers and members of the delegation accompanying the senior Pakistani official, they discussed avenues of cooperation between the two countries and ways to boost them. Meanwhile, the UAE and Pakistan have signed here today at the Armed Forces Officers Club an agreement to develop and strengthen military relations between the two countries. Lt. General Al Rumaithi signed the agreement for the UAE side, while General Ehsan Ul Haq signed for the Pakistani side. (Emirates News Agency, WAM)

http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default.asp?ID=6#20615

Now since Pakistan is also interested in purchasing either French or German submarines does that mean that Pakistan has decided to buy German ?

[PakTopGun]

From what I've gathered on the Marlin Sub design and altered propellar, shape/hull etc.. it seems that it has many of the design similarities with a nuclear sub minus the propulsion system. Given that the country already has the nuclear know-how, and a large pool of Nuclear scientist, it may be possible for Pakistan to go at the propulsion issue on its own and fitting it into a future design when its ready. Im no expert on Nuclear propolsion but this seems to be the general idea. Pakistan already received considerable ToT with the Agusta's, so a move in this direction will definately be interesting.:coffee:

[jawad]

i think that it will be a SSK version of Barracuda Class SSN just like
Turquoise SSK submarine is a derivative of the Rubis Amethyste class

[jawad]

Pakistan acquires capability to develop N-sub

By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has acquired the capability of developing its own nuclear submarine. Pakistani scientists and the engineers have developed indigenous technology for building the nuclear submarines at the existing facilities. This capability will strengthen the naval defence of the country. President Gen Pervez Musharraf will discuss this matter with the Chinese President during his visit to Islamabad in November this year.

Pakistan started exploring alternative sources and strategies to bridge the wide gap with India in conventional and strategic weapons/forces to sustain its independence and sovereignty. The gap was widening due to the United State’s tilt towards India as compared to Pakistan. According to a military comparison, Indo-Pak conventional and strategic asymmetries until now are not primarily in favour of Pakistan.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2944




http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2091513&C=europe

French naval export company Armaris on Aug. 28 made a formal offer of three Marlin diesel-electric patrol submarines to Pakistan, a deal that would include MBDA Exocet SM39 missiles, a Pakistani official said Sept. 8.
The French government granted approval for Armaris to offer the Marlin SSK in May, after long hesitation for fear of upsetting India, which recently bought six French Scorpene submarines, also armed with Exocet anti-ship weapons.
MBDA declined comment. Armaris officials were not immediately available.
Complicating the sale for France is the Pakistan Navy’s preference for the Boeing Harpoon missile. The U.S. government has authorized the sale of 30 submarine-launched versions of the Harpoon to Islamabad.
Acquisition of the Harpoon would be a first for Pakistan, as its forces have only operated the air-launched and surface ship versions so far. The Pakistan Navy operates the French DCN-designed Agosta 90B Khalid boat, armed with Exocets.
French business daily La Tribune reported Sept. 8 that Spanish and Germany industry were working on their offers to Pakistan.
The Marlin would be an updated, all-French version of the Franco-Spanish Scorpene boat and include air-independent propulsion. The sub deal is likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion.
Armaris is a DCN-Thales joint venture.

[jawad]

Just read this interesting bit of news



http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6EE2A6AA-1E16-4BBD-AD04-F3C585EE49CC.htm

Now for a while there has been an idea in Pakistan of building stronger military relations with the Gulf states as they are feeling threatened by regional powers. Obviously none of the Gulf states wants outside non-muslim powers intervening in the area because of the internal reaction.



Now the first part of the above idea has taken place with the UAE agreeing to invest about $10 billion in Gwadar.

and it seems that military co-operation between the countries is now being strengthened for part 2



http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default.asp?ID=6#20615

Now since Pakistan is also interested in purchasing either French or German submarines does that mean that Pakistan has decided to buy German ?

UAE will invest 43b$ in next 10 years
China will invest 50b$ in next 5-10 years

[FreeAsia2000]

Well it's now been confirmed.

Armaris Offers Pakistan Licensed Production of 3 Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabad’s diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
“This is one deal we have to win,” the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.
Germany’s HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said.
The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, France’s DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistan’s charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales.
In Bulgaria’s tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris’ Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2100125&C=europe

It's interesting to see that Pakistan still has the 214 in the running which is why armaris have offered domestic production.

the 214 bid has a slightly better chance in my view because of the uae issue
(see previous post 23)

[jawad]

Well it's now been confirmed.


Quote:
Armaris Offers Pakistan Licensed Production of 3 Subs

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabad’s diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
“This is one deal we have to win,” the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.
Germany’s HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said.
The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, France’s DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistan’s charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales.
In Bulgaria’s tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris’ Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2100125&C=europe

It's interesting to see that Pakistan still has the 214 in the running which is why armaris have offered domestic production.

the 214 bid has a slightly better chance in my view because of the uae issue
(see previous post 23)
PN wanted first boat to be made in pakistan see post 19#
Marlin stands first as per my understanding