Best Trained Air Force Pilots

[worldpower]

Which Nations produce the best trained pilots in the world?

My pick:

1. Isreal
2. United States
3. Pakistan
4. United Kingdom
5. Germany

[rommel]

Hum... Best trained pilot !

1-Canada
2-USA
3-UK
4-Germany
5-Pakistan

[tphuang]

1. Israel
2. Canada
3. USA
4. UK
5. Pakistan

[BrotherofSnake]

1. Israel
2. USA
3. UK
4. Canada
5. Germany

[Issa]

1. IRAN
2. Israel
3. U.S.
4. Pakistan
5. Germany

[walter]

just wondering, but why do so many think Canadian pilots are some of the best trained?

[rommel]

just wondering, but why do so many think Canadian pilots are some of the best trained?

Read that, it's the post about Canadian Pilot I posted before

The Best Pilots in the World

Canadian pilot training is world-renowned. Air Forces from around the globe send their student pilots here to train at the NATO Flying Training in Canada (NFTC) program. To date, Canada has sold more than $1-billion in training to pilots from Britain, Italy, Denmark, Singapore and Hungary since the inception of NFTC training in 1999. Using the most advanced and effective integrated pilot training system at the most modern training facilities currently available in the world, Canada has become the benchmark in military pilot training.

“We have the leading edge, most advanced technology for pilot training in the world. It is well ahead of everyone, Britain, the United States, everyone. It is the model for other countries so we are very proud of that.” – Lieutenant-Colonel Brian Houlgate, Director, Canadian Aerospace Training Project.

CHRONOLOGY OF TRAINING
Ground school to Wings: approximately 2 years Common Training
This training is taken by all pilot trainees:

* Basic Officer Training
* Second Language Training
* Phase I Primary Flying Training on the Slingsby Firefly, Portage La Prairie, Manitoba
* Aeromedical Training
* Basic Land and Sea Survival Training
* Phase II Basic Flying Training on the Harvard II, 15 Wing Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan

Helicopter Training
This training is taken by pilot trainees selected to fly helicopters:

* Phase III Helicopter Training on the Jet Ranger in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba
* Pilot Wings awarded
* Operational Training Course for specific helicopter

Multi-Engine Training
This training is taken by pilot trainees selected to fly multi-engine aircraft:

* Phase III Multi-Engine Training on the Beech King-Air in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba
* Pilot Wings awarded
* Operational Training Unit for specific aircraft

Jet Training
This training is taken by pilot trainees selected to fly jets (fighters or trainers):

* Phase III Jet Training on the Harvard II and the Hawk at 15 Wing Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
* Pilot Wings awarded
* Phase IV Fighter Lead-In Training on the Hawk in 4 Wing Cold Lake (for CF-18 pilots)
* CF-18 Course (for CF-18 pilots)

It’s no wonder why it costs an average of $2.54 million to train a Canadian Forces pilot.

Money well spent? Absolutely!

[walter]

okay, most of that training looks like flight training, though, not actual combat training. I am sure Canadian pilots are extremely competent, but how much actual combat experience do they have. Combat experience lays the groundwork for combat training, which is why I think UK, US, and Israel would take the top three spots, in no particular order.

[rommel]

okay, most of that training looks like flight training, though, not actual combat training. I am sure Canadian pilots are extremely competent, but how much actual combat experience do they have. Combat experience lays the groundwork for combat training, which is why I think UK, US, and Israel would take the top three spots, in no particular order.

well, Canadian Forces Pilot got 5700 of flight hour (2700 of Combat air patrol) during the 91 Desert Storm with 24 CF-18. In 1999, 18 CF-18 did 678 combat (2577 combat hour) sorties in Kosovo, we conducted more than the 10% of the NATO strike sorties during Operation Allied Force. During Operation Mirador (August-November 1997) in Bosnia, 6 CF-18 conducted 261 Air Patrol Combat mission to cover NATO ground's troops and 77 training mission.

For combat exercise, there's a lot each year, of exemple, Mapleflag, Clean Hunter, Bold Avenger and lot more. We got permanence a contingent that is flying under the command of the NORAD

[DPRKUnderground]

I bet most of you don't know Pakistan had a total of 5 kills w/out any losses in 2 of the Arab-Israeli Wars against Israel. 2 of them were in Hawker Hunters! Just check out www.pakdef.info! So here are my rankings!

1. Pakistan
2. Israel
3. US/India
5. UK

[Issa]

The IRIAF had a kill ratio of 5:1 during the Imposed War, and this was when we faced an arms embargo and an international Ba'thist tilt.

[BrotherofSnake]

You guys had our F-14s.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

You guys had our F-14s.

Wow. Now you consider F-14s to be "ours."
But F-14s do suck, and why is Iran in the top 5? And why is Pakistan in the top 5? Both Pakistan and Iran have no place being in the top 5, let alone being #1.

[Issa]

You guys had our F-14s.

Well, seeing that if not for the Shah's funding, the Tomcat project would have been dumped and Grumman would have gone bankrupt, your claim to the F-14 must be contested.

Also, your guys sabotaged many of them after the revolution, yet, we are still the only country to score a kill with the Phoenix missile.

[BrotherofSnake]

American Tomcat pilots have fired Phoenix missiles at fleeing Iraqi aircraft. The Iraqis ended up burning out their engines and ejecting trying to out-run the phoenix.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Well, seeing that if not for the Shah's funding, the Tomcat project would have been dumped and Grumman would have gone bankrupt, your claim to the F-14 must be contested.

Also, your guys sabotaged many of them after the revolution, yet, we are still the only country to score a kill with the Phoenix missile.

Back then Iran must've been a great rich country. Not the poor dry desert they are now. They still have a ton of oil reserves though, don't they?

[BrotherofSnake]

Back then Iran was friendly.

[Issa]

Back then Iran must've been a great rich country. Not the poor dry desert they are now. They still have a ton of oil reserves though, don't they?

Rich? The royal family, perhaps.

The climate of our country is not related in any way to our economy. We were never a "desert country," and we never will be.

We have plenty of oil reserves. But our industrial growth in this past year was 8.1%. We are diversifying quickly, and we will surely become an industrial power before we go dry.

[Issa]

Of course anyone who is American does not hate America. America treats Americans well. Iran is one of the unfortunate nations who had to live under oppressive U.S. rule.

Here is a list of acts of aggression committed by the United States against Iran during the war:

April 25, Failed Rescue attempt at Tabas. 5 Choppers captured 13 dead.

May-June 1980 Provocations by formenting trouble in Khuzestan and Sanandaj areas.

July 1980-1989 full elint and hunint intelligence sharing.

Formation of GCC losers.

Providing loan guarantees to Iraq, including $2 Billion sales of chemicals and helicopters under the "Agriculture" assistance program.

4 Awacs positioned at Dharan and Tabuk. On paper sold the Saudis 4 more AWACS and 80 F-15's. In reality the Saudis had a hard time flying a kite.

Transfet of ammo from Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians.

Encouraging Israel to sell faulty spares at gouging prices.

Encouraging, arranging financing and delivery of chemicals and European weapons to the spiderhole Saddam.

1984 US flown F-15's in Saudi marking shoot down an out of fuel and out of ammo F-4E coming home to Bushehr in international waters.

Arranging $50 billion "GCC" grants to Iraq. This later caused the idiot to invade Kuwait.

1988:

1988 US cowards warship Vincennes deliberately shoot down Iranian airliner to weaken Iranian morale and cause civilan disturbances in Iran against thewar.

1986-89 Reflagging of Kuwaiti and Saudi tankers; "Preying Mantis," attack on oil platforms.

[BrotherofSnake]

The Vincennes attacked Iran Air Flight 655 because they thought it was a hostile F-14. Operation Praying Mantis was a just cause, it was in retaliation for the Iranian mining of an American warship, the USS Samuel B. Roberts. Anyways, we payed Iran 61.8 million in compensation for that airliner. :)

[Issa]

Hmmm... you would think advanced U.S.-made jet fighters could tell the difference between an airliner and an F-14. You are justifying a horrific act which killed 330 of my compatriots. How would you feel if I did the same regarding, say, a suicide bombing in a U.S. troop encampments? (Mind you, only SOLDIERS, not civilians, would be killed in such an attack).

There are two possible explanations for our mining of your warship:

1. We are evil and hate Americans.
2. The United States had sabotaged our Tomcats after the revolution, imposed an arms embargo against us, sponsered MKO to committ acts of terrorism against us, sold Saddam chemical weapons, etc.

Also, no compensation was given whatsoever (In fact, not even a formal apology was given).

[BrotherofSnake]

LOL, The USS Vincennes is an AEGIS cruiser, not a warplane and only 290 people were killed on flight 655. We sabotaged your Tomcats and imposed arms imbargos because after the revolution, Iran was a hostile nation.

[Issa]

After decades of colonial servitude, you expected us to kiss your feet?!?! By the way, you never attempted to justify your support of MKO or your sale of chemical weapons to Saddam. And the fact that it was a warship does not undo the fact that it was a horrific and criminal act.

[BrotherofSnake]

That Iranian Airliner was accidentally shot down, not deliberately. We mistook it for a hostile F-14, accidents happen. The Airliner incident was not an act of terrorism. We shot it down because it was a potential threat to the lives of American servicemen. :)

[Gollevainen]

Keep in mind that your severly drifting offtopic!!!

[bd popeye]

Keep in mind that your severly drifting offtopic!!!

I agree with Gollevainen. Too much off topic discussion. And country bashing. :eek:

It's not really necessary.

I thought the orginal discussion was on what country has the best trained Air Force pilots? What happend to that?

Let's get back to that.

[adeptitus]

Ok, back on topic...

If we're talking about fighter pilots, going just by # of kills with 3rd generation aircraft, Israeli F-15's has 56 confirmed air kills, and Israeli F-16's have 47 confirmed air kills.

USAF F-15's have air kills, and USAF F-16's have 6 air kills between Iraq and Yugoslavia.

The British Royal Air Force had 23 air kills during the Argentine war with Sea Harriers.

The Ethiopia-Eritrea war resulted in at least 5 confimred MiG-29 kills, plus a couple of MiG-21's. It's said that the pilots were a mix of Russian & Ukrainian mercenaries and few locals:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_189.shtml

South African Mirage F1's also scored 6 mission kills against MiG-23's.

Other than that, I think there's a few aerial victories here and there, like the Saudi F-15 that shot down the 2 Iraqi F-1's.

[Issa]

Yes, but every pilot in the RSAF is American! :D

[FreeAsia2000]

I thought this topic was about the best trained fighter pilots ?

When we say best 'trained' do we mean most flight hours ? most combat experience against equivalent ( surely not firing missiles at a house in downtown baghdad ?) ?

Is the question if you put an average chinese pilot against an average american pilot in 2 equivalent aircraft who would win ?

I can understand why we keep drifting off-topic because the questions are not precise

[worldpower]

I thought this topic was about the best trained fighter pilots ?

When we say best 'trained' do we mean most flight hours ? most combat experience against equivalent ( surely not firing missiles at a house in downtown baghdad ?) ?

Is the question if you put an average chinese pilot against an average american pilot in 2 equivalent aircraft who would win ?

I can understand why we keep drifting off-topic because the questions are not precise
------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE:

The judgement for ranking the nations that produce the "best trained" pilots should be based on the following requirement:

1. combat records ( kills/losses ratio)
2. training hours spent in aircraft and simulators
3. strategy and tactics utilized
4. creativity, initialitives , and innovation of pilots

Basically, if an average pilot from two nations fight against each other,with the same quality aircrafts , who will win based on skill alone?

The combat records of Isreal 's air force speaks for itself through out its wars with Arab nations since its independence in 1948. Their pilots are highly trained and skilled in air combat. Its air force imposes very limited restriction on its pilots; therefore, giving its pilots the freedom to fully utilize thier skills and creativity for the winning edge in air combat. I had a college roommate from Isreal who told me the intensity of their training programs and the pilots's dedication to be the best pilots in the world.

[DPRKUnderground]

Here is how I'm going to prove that Pakistani pilots are the best in the world!
Some Info (http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/index.html)

Not only that but in air-air combat in the 1971 War, Pakistan had a 5-1 Kill Ratio!!!!!!!!!
In the 1965 War they had a 2.5-1 Kill ration in air-air combat!!!!!!!!

[BrotherofSnake]

Overall, the Israelis have the best trained pilots. They boast a 30:1 ratio over the Arabs in air to air combat.

[Issa]

That is impressive, no doubt, but they were never under the strain IRIAF pilots were under (imprisonment, sanctions, etc.).

[BrotherofSnake]

I heard an Iranian F-14 was shot down by an Iraqi chopper during the Iraq-Iran war. Is it true? :confused:

[Gollevainen]

Not only that but in air-air combat in the 1971 War, Pakistan had a 5-1 Kill Ratio!!!!!!!!!

They boast a 30:1 ratio over the Arabs in air to air combat.

so what??, we had 32:1 ratio against soviet airforce

[DPRKUnderground]

That is impressive, no doubt, but they were never under the strain IRIAF pilots were under (imprisonment, sanctions, etc.).

Pakistan was sanctioned at that point in time!

[MIGleader]

just cause some country had a XX/X ration of kills against another country doesn't mean it can do the same to every country. it might even be an example of how untrained certain airforces are. for ex. Us can kill a few hundred iraqi aricraft with minimal losses, buy can it do the same to europe or china? this is not a good measure of training because there is no control group.

[Issa]

I heard an Iranian F-14 was shot down by an Iraqi chopper during the Iraq-Iran war. Is it true? :confused:

No. I can assure you that is false (their best aircraft, the Mirage F.1EQ, could down one only with luck and an advantage in numbers!). However, it has been confirmed that three Iraqi MiG-21s were shot down by Iranian Cobras.

[MIGleader]

iraq had mig-29s during the latter part of the war. they would have been the only planes that could fight the f-14

[BrotherofSnake]

It was also confirmed that an Iraqi Mirage F-1EQ downed an Iranian F-14A.

[Issa]

Did I deny the possibility of a Mirage downing an F-14?

And those Fulcrums arrived too late. They never engaged a Tomcat.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

so what??, we had 32:1 ratio against soviet airforce

When was this?

[FriedRiceNSpice]

(their best aircraft, the Mirage F.1EQ, could down one only with luck and an advantage in numbers!).
Read that BrotherofSnake.

[DPRKUnderground]

just cause some country had a XX/X ration of kills against another country doesn't mean it can do the same to every country. it might even be an example of how untrained certain airforces are. for ex. Us can kill a few hundred iraqi aricraft with minimal losses, buy can it do the same to europe or china? this is not a good measure of training because there is no control group.

But India has a highly regarded Air Force and is defintely in the Top 10 in the world. And here's an interesting article for www.pakdef.info:


Foreign Encounter - PAF Vs IIAF
In 1977, the PAF had a rare opportunity to demonstrate its marksmanship prowess in a competitive encounter with another air force. Group Captain Safdar who was then commanding No 23 Squadron narrates the story:

"While visiting our base Masroor in September 77, the CAS mentioned that during his recent visit to Iran, the Shah had inquired whether the PAF would be interested in hosting an armament competition with an Iranian Air Force fighter squadron. The CAS asked me if I would take on the Iranian squadron. Needless to say I was excited by the prospect. As a side issue the CAS promised a reward of Rs. 10,000/- to 23 Squadron if we won, and God help us if we lost!

"He instructed the ACAS (Ops) to extend all possible facilities to us in preparing an 8-member team which comprised myself, Squadron Leaders Javed Latif, Javed Qazi, Tahir Hussain, Imtiaz and Shams, and Flight Lieutenants Farhad and Khalid. Every F-6 Squadron was asked to lend 2 aircraft to 23 Squadron for the exercise and very soon we had nearly 30 F-6s at our disposal. I allotted two aeroplanes to each team member and instructed them to harmonize their aircraft themselves. Somiani range was reserved for us and each pilot was scheduled to fly two ground attack and two air-to-air missions per day. Within a month our performance improved significantly and we began to average 90% scores in strafing and over 50% direct hits in rocketry. Our air combat scores also improved proportionately.

"In October the Iranians flew into Masroor with their beautiful F-5Es. Compared to the F-6 the Northrop F-5E was a pretty sight, and incorporated the latest American technology of that time. I could sense that my pilots were a little apprehensive, but their urge to 'have a go' was stronger. The competition started and I led the first ground attack mission, followed by one of the Iranians; and thus we alternated through all the events. When final scores were declared we were delighted, for we had beaten the Iranians hands down both in air combat and ground attack.

"The next day we received a signal from the CAS congratulating the squadron and saying that we could collect Rs.10,000/- from the base accounts officer. But the base commander told me that since the competition had been a collective effort, the money would be claimed by the base. I was quite disappointed, as I had been planning to purchase some new furniture and rugs for the squadron for our forthcoming move to Samungli. I mentioned this to the ADC to the CAS, and told him what my base commander had said. Next day the accounts officer came and handed over Rs. 10,000/- to our squadron adjutant!"

(Taken from the book "The Story of Pakistan Air Force 1948-1988)

[Issa]

The IAF is a very professional and advanced force, but the PAF (which is 1/5 the size) has repeatedly been able to defend its airspace against the IAF's Aviators.

[Issa]

To megalomaniac Americans, some information regarding the F-14:

US Navy Kill Record
Confirmed Kills ________ 6
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 1
Damage/Close Calls ___ 2
Forced Down _________ 1
Radar Lock-ons _______ 3
Fractricide ___________ 1


Iranian Air Force Kills Against The Iraqi Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 123
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 5
Shared Kill ___________ 1
Damage/Close Calls ___ 8


Iraqi Air Force Kill Claims Against The Iranian Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 3
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 9
Damage/Close Calls ___ 1

I hope this will make some of you think twice before making baseless remarks regarding our air force.

[DPRKUnderground]

To megalomaniac Americans, some information regarding the F-14:

US Navy Kill Record
Confirmed Kills ________ 6
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 1
Damage/Close Calls ___ 2
Forced Down _________ 1
Radar Lock-ons _______ 3
Fractricide ___________ 1


Iranian Air Force Kills Against The Iraqi Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 123
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 5
Shared Kill ___________ 1
Damage/Close Calls ___ 8


Iraqi Air Force Kill Claims Against The Iranian Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 3
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 9
Damage/Close Calls ___ 1

I hope this will make some of you think twice before making baseless remarks regarding our air force.

Wow, so the quality of the Iranian AF didn't go down after the revolution! But the Iranians also had the advantage technologically, most of the F-14s could fly, and they had plenty of BVR missiles including the Phoenix!

[Issa]

Without the heroes who sat in the cockpit, the F-14 would not have been as successful.

[DPRKUnderground]

Without the heroes who sat in the cockpit, the F-14 would not have been as successful.

True, very true. Where did you get those stats anyways?

[Issa]

ACIG.org

[DPRKUnderground]

ACIG.org

I just went on acig.org, and the Iraqis had plenty of air-air kills, but not as many as the Iranians. :confused:

[crazyinsane105]

Wow. Now you consider F-14s to be "ours."
But F-14s do suck, and why is Iran in the top 5? And why is Pakistan in the top 5? Both Pakistan and Iran have no place being in the top 5, let alone being #1.

Actually, if you look at the PAF air kills, they are extremely impressive. And the PAF school is just as rigorous as America's Top Gun program. As a matter of fact, the people at PDF last year were wondering if PLAAF pilots could take training from the PAF. Even though that would boost the skills of the PLAAF, it would have huge logistical constraints on the PAF (and also that the PAF doesn't operate China's latest aircraft, Su-30MKK's).

[DPRKUnderground]

Actually, if you look at the PAF air kills, they are extremely impressive. And the PAF school is just as rigorous as America's Top Gun program. As a matter of fact, the people at PDF last year were wondering if PLAAF pilots could take training from the PAF. Even though that would boost the skills of the PLAAF, it would have huge logistical constraints on the PAF (and also that the PAF doesn't operate China's latest aircraft, Su-30MKK's).

Thank you Crazyinsane! Pakistani pilots are some of the top in the world. It is so hard to make it to fighter conversion. My Dad was in the PAF academy and was like 25 or so spots off the fighter conversion cut. Only about 15 make it to fighter conversion, which is to an F-7, then if your good on the F-7, you get to move to the Mirage III, and if your one of the elite pilots in the PAF, you get to fly the F-16s!

[sumdud]

My list, no order:
RCAF pilots
IDF
PAF
USAF
USN
RAF
FAF
Luftwaffe

PS: No more drifting off topic! No more feet kissing!

[DPRKUnderground]

My list, no order:
RCAF pilots
IDF
PAF
USAF
USN
RAF
FAF
Luftwaffe

PS: No more drifting off topic! No more feet kissing!

Who's the RCAF?

[BrotherofSnake]

I think its the Taiwanese AF. :confused:

[MIGleader]

Who's the RCAF?

royal canadian airforce? republic of china af?

brother of snake, side with taiwan??? i thought you loved america. taiwanese pilots arnt that well trained, and their planes are all foreign or heavily based on foreign planes.

[rommel]

royal canadian airforce? republic of china af?

brother of snake, side with taiwan??? i thought you loved america. taiwanese pilots arnt that well trained, and their planes are all foreign or heavily based on foreign planes.

RCAF is the old name for the Canadian Air Force, before the fusion of the 3 arms (Land-Air-Sea) it was the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), but now, after the unification of the 3 branchs in 1968, it become the Canadian Armed Forces - Air Command. But we, canadian, just called it CAF or Canadian Air Force

[BrotherofSnake]

brother of snake, side with taiwan??? i thought you loved america. taiwanese pilots arnt that well trained, and their planes are all foreign or heavily based on foreign planes.

When did I say I side with Taiwan?

DPRKUnderground asked what was the RCAF, so i responded.

[Issa]

Notes:

- 1. This list is provisional, nothing "definite"; in fact, I created it (almost) from the top of my mind; consequently, feel free - in fact, you're MOST WELLCOME - to discuss it down to the last detail: rip it apart if needed, but let us get it right!

- 2. Please, be so kind to - for the reasons of better understanding - MAKE CLEAR your corrections of single entries; bear in mind that when we make the final version of this list "somebody" will have to go through this thread and find together all the corrections.

- 3. What is missing in most cases on this list are additional details we agreed to add, namely those about the weapons used, and how many of claims are confirmed or not confirmed. My suggestion would also be to - in case of pilots killed in combat, or while still in military service - we to add such a remark too.

- 4. This list contains pilots known to have been considered "aces" in their own service: the list of pilots that were "almost" or "never became" aces will be readied at a later stage.

- 5. For those of you who are interested in getting more closely involved in this project: please, see around if you can find any pictures of pilots in questions. I guess it would be nice to be in position to illustrate this list with some photos of pilots and/or their planes (or artworks of these) once it would be uploaded to the website.




Giora Aven Israel, Mirage III / Nesher: 17

Yiftah Spector, Israel, Mirage III/F-4E: 15

Amir Nahumi, Israel, F-4E / F-16: 15

Israel Baharav, Israel, F-4E/Mirage III/Nesher: 14

Abraham Shalmon, Israel, Mirage III: 14

Asher Snir, Israel, Mirage III: 13.5

Oded Marom, Israel, Mirage III: 13 ½

Jalal Zandi, Iran, F-14A: 12 (3 not confirmed - one definitely - 2 by AIM-54A)

Ya’acov Richter, Israel, Mirage III: 11.5

Dror Harish, Israel, Mirage III: 11

Yehuda Korean, Israel, Mirage III: 10.5

Shlomo Levi, Israel, Nesher: 10

Aliyah Hoda, Iran, F-4E: 9

Nguyen Van Coc, Vietnam, MiG-21: 9 (four not confirmed)

Eitan Carmi, Israel, Mirage III: 9

Bassam Hamshu, Syria, MiG-21FL/MF: 8 (one possibly against helicopter on the ground/about to land or start)

Mohammad Ryyan, Iraq, MiG-21/MiG-25: 8 (four not confirmed)

Nguyen Hong Nhi, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 8

Mai Van Cuong, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 8

Pham Thanh Ngab, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 8

Uri Gil, Israel, Mirage III/F-16: 8

Ilam Gonen, Israel, ?: 8

Shlomo Egozi, Israel, F-4E: 8

Menechem Einan, Israel, ?: 7.5

Nguyen Van Bay, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 7

Dang Ngoc Ngu, Vietnam, MiG-17 / MiG-21: 7

Amos Amir, Israel, Mirage III: 7

Ran Ronen, Israel, ?: 7

Avner Nave, Israel, F-15: 7

Shahram Rostami, Iran, F-14A: 6

Luu Huy Chao, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Vu Ngoc Dinh, Vietnam MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Le Hai, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Nguyen Nhat Chieu, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Le Thanh Dao, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Nguyen Dang Kinh, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Nguyen Tiem Sam, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 6

Avihu Ben-Nun, Israel, F-4E: 6

Yoram Agmon, Israel, F-4E: 6

Ehud Hankin, Israel, F-4E: 6

Moshe Hertz, Israel, Mirage III: 6

Majid Zugbi, Syria, MiG-21: 6 (four not confirmed)

H.A., Iran, F-14A: 5 1/2 (1xAIM-54A)

A. Afshar, Iran, F-14A: 5 (1xAIM-54A)

A. T., Iran, F-14A: 5 (3xAIM-54A)

H. Sedghi, Iran, F-14A: 5 (2xAIM-54A)

Nguyen Van Nghia, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 5

Nguyen Duc Soat, Vietnam, MiG-17/MiG-21: 5

Steve Ritchie, USA, F-4E: 5 (all 5 with AIM-7E)

Randy Cunningham, USA, F-4J: 5 (all 5 with AIM-9D)

Giora Rom, Israel, Mirage III: 5

Aviem Sela, Israel, F-4E, 5

Ali Wafai, Egypt, MiG-21: 5

Chaim Egozi, Israel, ?: 5

Ariel Cohen, Israel, Nesher: 5

Ezra Dotan Israel, Mirage III/A-4: 5

Ben-Ami Peri, Israel, F-4E: 5

Eitan Peled, Israel, F-4E: 5

Herzel Bodinger, Israel, Mirage III: 5

Itamar Noiner, Israel, ?: 5

Uri Aven-Nir, Israel, ?: 5

Yoram Peled, Israel, F-15: 5

Syed Saad Hatmi, Pakistan, F-86: 5

Vaghif Kurbanof, Azerbaijan, Su-25: 5 (all with 30mm guns, at least three are unconfirmed)

Adib el-Gar, Syria, MiG-21FL/MF: 4.5 (three not confirmed)

M. Khosrodad, Iran, F-14A: 4.5

http://acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2728&start=15

[sumdud]

Uh........... I thought it was still called RCAF.......... :D
Yes, I was talking about the Canadian pilots.

I don't think we should underestimate the IDF. I think it has a potential.
It has good capabilities.

[BrotherofSnake]

Sumdud, the Israelis have the best pilots in the world. They hold a 30:1 kill ratio against the Arabs.

1. IRAN
2. Israel
3. U.S.
4. Pakistan
5. Germany

LOL!!! USAF and IAF pilots are way better than Iranian pilots.

[Issa]

Some time after the fall of Saddam, a USAF F-16 flew over Iranian airspace. This was detected by our radar, so we sent a MiG-29. The pilot turned of the Fulcrum's radar, reducing its signature on the F-16s radar screen. Then, via radio, in perfect English, the Iranian pilot told the Americans "Leave our airspace." LOL.

[MIGleader]

Sumdud, the Israelis have the best pilots in the world. They hold a 30:1 kill ratio against the Arabs.



LOL!!! USAF pilots are way better than Iranian pilots.

i would not say that. but iran being #1...not so true either. u.s pilotes feel they are invincible against any country because they can shoot down old migs. they are in for a surprise.

[BrotherofSnake]

687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel's birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948.

[MIGleader]

you sure? alot of israles kills came from attacking grounded egyptian and syrian planes during the 6 day war.

[BrotherofSnake]

The 600+ planes were shot down in air to air engagements.

http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Kills/GeneralKills.aspx?lang=EN&lobbyID=40&folderID=43&subfolderID=874

[chinawhite]

687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel's birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948.

the arabs relied on AAM missiles to shoot down aircraft rather than air to air engaments

[BrotherofSnake]

Well, the Israelis lost hundreds of planes to SAMs, but they only lost around 24 to fighters.

[RogerWillco]

During the Galil war, Israeli and syrian aircrafts ( latest version of Mig 21, Mig 23, againts israeli F-16 and F-15 ) engaged in a huge dogfight.
after 2 days, the war in the air was over, the results:

85 Mig 21 and Mig 23 " landed " in the valley, and not a single israeli aircraft was shot down.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=search

search for israel,
and download
IAF in the Lebanon War


and for more information
download the official movie of the IAF.

[Gollevainen]

Those scoring results are the ones of Isreali claiming...i suggest you look into the matter bit more carefully and you will find out that the "unbeatable" IDF isen't so invincible after all...good starting point would be ACIG.org

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I dont want to sound arrogant or anything but I must respond to this. Listen, if the USAF or US naval fleet wanted air dominance over Iran we would have it in about 3 days or less. I know that you want to bash americans and you probably hate us. Well I dont like the government in Iran either and taking our citizens hostage out of our embassy was one of the reason the US looks at you as a hostile country now. The EU and to a lesser extent russia is on our side when it comes to the Iranian nuclear situtation. Please dont let your backward islamic leaders brainwash you into thinking you can stand up to thousands of cruise missles and waves of fighters based in Saudi Arabia,Iraq,Kuwait, and off your coast in carrier battle groups, because you will lose badly.
Now you cant flame me all you want but I dont care some of the garbage that people base their facts on is just that garbage. You would understand if you were a pilot from anywhere in the world. Here is my list and yes Im baised and here is my honest ranking.


1.USAF
2.US Navy/RAF/Israel
3.India/Russia/China
4.Germany/Japan
5.France/Canada

Alot were tied to me and lumped together because of those airforces training,equipment, and morale.

First of Russia is not on "our side." Russia is the one making money here...
And even though the Iranian air force can be destroyed quickly, a land war will be a nightmare of the US of A.

And Germany, France, and Canada all have better training than India, Russia, and China in terms both quantative (flight time) and qualitive (technical and technologically).

[EternalVigil]

Russia is on our side in refering Iran to the UNSC if they dont let russia control the flow of enriching Uranium and plutonium. Putin already told Bush that last week during the asian leaders summit. Trust me no one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon(and we all know thats what its for because they set on a sea of oil for energy purposes) when they threaten to wipe Israel off the map and chant death to America and Israel on a daily basis. They also support more terrorist organizations than any government in the world with Syria running a close second. It could start world war 3 if they launched a nuke at Israel. Its not going to happen. The US wouldnt have a ground war in Iran, we would just destroy all military,nuclear, and communication assets until they sued for peace or until they tried to cross into Iraq or Afghanistan. I hope it never comes to that but Israel will not be destroyed as long as the US is around. China and India would eat Canada's and France's lunch in an air war.

[jatt]

I think were discussing pilot training not Airforce numbers and strenght.
IMHO Russia now ranks low with reduced flying hours.

[adeptitus]

I think the original question was "best trained air force pilots" and not "country with most victorious fighter aces" ?

Not all AF around the world use same doctrine in training. One interesting comparison is number of pilots PER aircraft. The Soviet Union was known to have pilot to aircraft ratio of 3:1, depending on the type of aircrat, with each pilot getting 120 to 130 hours of flying per year.

NATO countries at the time was known to prefer a pilot to aircraft ratio of 1.5:1, with each pilot getting 180 to 200 hours of flying per year.

So we have an interesting situation where, the Soviets were putting more hours into each aircraft's airframe than NATO countries, but their pilots had fewer flying hours per year. In terms of resource expenditure you could say the Soviets spent more PER aircraft, versus NATO spent more PER pilot.

[Gollevainen]

Eternalvirgil, As a sort of an getleman agreement we no longer allow countrybrashing threads towards USA but it also means little co-operation from your side...don't flame this discussion to political BS contest. What you said to Issa (whose Iranian and if someone would mock my country in ways that you did...well...:nono: ) was very low and biased provocation and i and rest of the mod/adm team would appreciate that we all can focus solely on the military side of this issue...

[RogerWillco]

WorldNetDaily (WND) reported February 14 that the Israeli air force had trounced a U.S. fighter force from the USS Theodore Roosevelt in a mock battle. During this training exercise in the Negev desert between Israeli air force F-16 pilots and U.S. Navy pilots from the USS Theodore Roosevelt, Israeli air force pilots, according to the Jerusalem Post, "shot down" 220 Navy F-14s and F-18s while only "losing" 20 F-16s. In one exercise, the paper said, the reported kill ratio was 40:1 in the Israelis' favor, an outcome so stunning, according to an Israeli officer quoted by the Post, the results weren't made public to "save the reputations of U.S. Navy pilots."


http://www.combatsim.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=19&t=000014&p=5

http://www.discerningtoday.org/members/Digest/2000Digest/November/u.s._fleet_no_match_for_russian_airforce.htm


this exercies was between F-14D's and F-18E's of the US, and Israeli F16-A / B.
the C + D versions didn't " played ", not to think about what was the results with the F-16I's.

[IDonT]

Seriously, we should try to get away from these type of threads. It solves nothing and are worthless. It only results in flaming and banning.

Anyway, the best answer to which country has the best pilot training is, "in what context?"
Dogfighting, how to operate as a combined arms, bombing, ability to operate avionics well, etc....Though they are not as glamorous as dogfighting, the ability ot operate as a combined arms, interoperability, learning to streamline communications between combat assets, survellence, and command, aerial refueling, and knowing the advantages and disadvantages of your equipment are the ones that win wars.

Oh about that Israeli vs US navy pilots, the key question to asked is, what were the constraint the US and Israeli pilots were operating under? Were they allowed AEW support, BVR engagement, and jamming? Were they operating the full capability of their aircraft or were they simulating the capability of Israel's most probable opponent? War games are meant to be scripted to address a particular issue and improve on it.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

I found this on the 2nd link:

Since Russia has committed its forces to help if China attacks Taiwan, China also knows it has little to fear from the U.S. Pacific Fleet.

Is this true?

Do you guys have any other sources confirming this?

[sumdud]

Now this is a thread renewed.
I don't want anyone to comment on the bashings that came before RogerWillco's post two days ago. If I find anyone commenting and worsening the bashing situation before that post while we mods are deleting the posts, the guy gets a warning and will be out for a week.

[ahho]

Hmm so the Canadian Air For still have the best training from WW2 till now very interesting to know this. Nobody talks about military in canada except the funding problem :mad:

well rommel, i am just wondering, how do we transport the cf-18 to iraq and kosovo??? I've been wondering about this.

IMO
best pilots
1) USA
2) Isreal/Canada/Russia
3) Pakistan <-- pretty questionable now since they dun have bvr
4) India/China

[chinawhite]

Hey guys,

I wouldn't put russian pilots in the top ten based on training numbers

[MIGleader]

Hey guys,

I wouldn't put russian pilots in the top ten based on training numbers

they only get 60 hours a year. so bad that putin needs to send em as mercenaries to africa to get some mig and flanker training. pilots like viktor pugachev are rare.

[rommel]

Hmm so the Canadian Air For still have the best training from WW2 till now very interesting to know this. Nobody talks about military in canada except the funding problem :mad:

well rommel, i am just wondering, how do we transport the cf-18 to iraq and kosovo??? I've been wondering about this.



Well, I think that the CF-18 just fly to the deployment zone, since they have a ferry range of about 3,700 km and can be refueled in air or they can land like in England or Ireland to refuel. But I can't be sure since I'm not a air force serviceman, only a little grunt...

[DPRKUnderground]

I think the PAF has the best pilots in the world. Chuck Yeager and Chuck Horner said that Pakistan's pilots are some of the most feared in the world. And they outmatched the Shah's new F-5s with old F-6s! Plus a 5-1 kill ratio against a modern, well-trained Indian Air Force in 1971! Also forgot to mention the 4 kills they scored against the Israelis during the 1973 war without taking any losses. They shot down an F-4 in a Hawker Hunter! :nana:

[jatt]

Chuck yeager is a lieing little bitch. He hated India so his comments were extremely bias. Plus the Indian airforce was not well trained in 1971. It was only in the mid 1980's that InAF took more infances on training.

[MIGleader]

chuch yeager is not a little *****. you dont have to call the supersonic man names just cause he said something bad about india. why did he hate india?

[jatt]

Well for one he disliked India because his government at the time did. 1971 India was a close Soviet Ally and Nixon as we all know hated India. He even tried getting China to attack India when India attacked Pakistan to liberate Bangledesh. Yuck Yeager was constantly commenting how the USA would help Pakistan kick India's ass. After it didn't happen he uped and left.
But a few pointers. This is Pakistan's air victory in 1971. Are you gonna compare the Pakistani pilots of old to new Indian pilots? I doubt the flying hours of the Pakistani pilots even though they must have the best instructers. After all you can't learn to drive a car with out getting behind the wheel.;)

[DPRKUnderground]

Well for one he disliked India because his government at the time did. 1971 India was a close Soviet Ally and Nixon as we all know hated India. He even tried getting China to attack India when India attacked Pakistan to liberate Bangledesh. Yuck Yeager was constantly commenting how the USA would help Pakistan kick India's ass. After it didn't happen he uped and left.
But a few pointers. This is Pakistan's air victory in 1971. Are you gonna compare the Pakistani pilots of old to new Indian pilots? I doubt the flying hours of the Pakistani pilots even though they must have the best instructers. After all you can't learn to drive a car with out getting behind the wheel.;)

Well in the 80s they continued the legacy by fighting the Soviets. They kicked their @$$es. They took down about 12-20 Soviet and Afghan aircraft without taking any losses! And that stopped in 1989. Now it's been 16 years, but I still think the PAF would be highly capable. Note that Chuck Horner said that Pakistani pilots were amazing in his book. Which was published in 1996. And F-16.net has an interview with one of the Pakistani pilots. And he'll tell you how hard the training is, even F-16.net notes how rigorous PAF training is!

[jatt]

I fail see how PAF pilots can achieve so much now that they probabily don't have the pilot hours or the proper trainer aircraft. When was the last time the PAF held joint exercises or engagned BVR fighters?

[Baibar of Jalat]

reply to jatt

sorry but the indian airforce also has not had an conflict since the 1970s. Pakistan will soon have bvr missles. Its all speculative but pakistan will remain strong in the forseeable future. Pakistan pilots training the Saudi airforce (who i think 90 percent sure they have bvr tech) and also training other gulf states will counter the Israel or even to the lesser extent iranian threat to the gulf region. :nana: pity the syrians do not ask for significant pakistani help.

Training on advance arab fighters as f 15s will be tranferable to future Paf jets. I must admit before this furom openned i thought the pakistan airforce was inferior to the indians go pakistan :china:

[jatt]

How are a handfull of pilots recieving joyrides in foriegn aircraft's gonna match India's who recieve 200+ hours in the front seat. Exercised with the French, Americans and in Alaska. Even ecountered AWACs and has been experiementing with BVR on their own aircraft since the 1980's?

[PiSigma]

jatt let's not get too nationalistic. we all know indian pilots are well trained. but you can't just say that pakistani pilots are poorly trained compared to indian. unless there's an air war fought between the two, we'll never know which one is better. and let's hope there's no war. try to see the other side of the coin sometimes.

[MIGleader]

How are a handfull of pilots recieving joyrides in foriegn aircraft's gonna match India's who recieve 200+ hours in the front seat. Exercised with the French, Americans and in Alaska. Even ecountered AWACs and has been experiementing with BVR on their own aircraft since the 1980's?

and your saying indias aircraft are indegedous? the mig-29, su-30, mirage 2000, and harrier are all foreign. even the marut was led by kurt wolfe.

[DPRKUnderground]

How are a handfull of pilots recieving joyrides in foriegn aircraft's gonna match India's who recieve 200+ hours in the front seat. Exercised with the French, Americans and in Alaska. Even ecountered AWACs and has been experiementing with BVR on their own aircraft since the 1980's?

You asked for the last exercise with a foreign nation? Well in later 2004 PAF pilots participated in Anatolian Eagle with another 20+ Air Forces. They learned ways to counter BVR! You also said that Pakistan lacks training aircraft. Pilots go from the Mushak to the T-37 to the K-8. The T-37 is old, but the K-8 is a very reliable trainer aircraft. Egypt just bought about 60. BVR missiles will be inducted into the PAF by late 2006. And those AWACS are coming pretty soon.

[jatt]

jatt let's not get too nationalistic. we all know indian pilots are well trained. but you can't just say that pakistani pilots are poorly trained compared to indian. unless there's an air war fought between the two, we'll never know which one is better. and let's hope there's no war. try to see the other side of the coin sometimes.
How so? Tha Pakistani Airforce is proffesinal just like India's but its common sense they lack the flying hours, and before 9/11 lacked serious spare for the F-16's!
You tell me how effective their anti-BVR tactics are if don't have it! All i'm saying is the InAF elite pilots have left their PAF counterparts behind. PAF with her budget could not afford the flying hours expecially when the PA takes the bulk of the defence budget!
and your saying indias aircraft are indegedous? the mig-29, su-30, mirage 2000, and harrier are all foreign. even the marut was led by kurt wolfe.
I didn't say that. You misunderstood me.
Well in later 2004 PAF pilots participated in Anatolian Eagle with another 20+ Air Forces. They learned ways to counter BVR!
They learn't them. Sent their best pilots and aircraft too. But tell me how that matches up to India's annual exercises with America,Singapre,France and Cope Alaska?
Pilots go from the Mushak to the T-37 to the K-8. The T-37 is old, but the K-8 is a very reliable trainer aircraft. Egypt just bought about 60. BVR missiles will be inducted into the PAF by late 2006. And those AWACS are coming pretty soon.
No doubt the K-8 is a great trainer but this isn't anything like the MiG-ATs or Mako. So other than learning how to keep your bird in the air it doesn't simulate flying a real combat aircraft. And how does 2006 help the current PAF stature?

[FriedRiceNSpice]

PAF with her budget could not afford the flying hours expecially when the PA takes the bulk of the defence budget!

Hey, budget isn't everything. For example, China's military budget is nearly four times greater than that of India's, yet the general consensus is that Indian pilots are, for the most part, superior to their Chinese counterparts.

[MIGleader]

can u clarify what the "general consensus" is? i was under the impression that chinese and indian piltos have equally good training, at least for fighter units.

[FriedRiceNSpice]

can u clarify what the "general consensus" is? i was under the impression that chinese and indian piltos have equally good training, at least for fighter units.

Alas, I personally beleive PLAAF pilots are better, but my own judgement is much clouded by bias and nationalism. However, if you take some time to explore this forum and various other forums of similiar nature, you will find that most of our fellow forum-goers find IAF pilots better trained.
Of course, there are not official statistics or figures to support either claim.

[jatt]

The PLA budget is mostly spend on R&D, paying for the massive manpower (the plaaf alone have 200 000 personal? and the PLAN 400 000 correct?) mantianing the large force of obselete equipment that hasn't been phased out. Pakistan's airforce is half the size of India's. But look at the budget and the size of armies.

[adeptitus]

How so? Tha Pakistani Airforce is proffesinal just like India's but its common sense they lack the flying hours, and before 9/11 lacked serious spare for the F-16's!
<snip>
No doubt the K-8 is a great trainer but this isn't anything like the MiG-ATs or Mako. So other than learning how to keep your bird in the air it doesn't simulate flying a real combat aircraft. And how does 2006 help the current PAF stature?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/airforce.htm

The Egyptian and Pakistani governments reportedly agreed in November 2000 on a major bilateral defense trade agreement which involved the refurbishment of Egyptian Air Force (EAF) aircraft in Pakistan in exchange for the supply of Egyptian F-16A/B spare parts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The deal, which had been in preparation for some time, was reportedly finalized by Pakistan Chief Executive Gen. Pervez Musharraf and senior Egyptian officials at the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) summit in Doha on November 13-14, 2000. What was agreed, reportedly, included:

* The provision by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, near Islamabad, of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's 13 Dassault Mirage 5 E2 tactical fighters; appr. 45 Dassault Mirage 5 SDE tactical fighters; less than 6 Dassault Mirage 5SDR tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and 5 Dassault Mirage 5 SDD operational trainers at the Mirage Rebuild Facility, which is part of PAC;
* The provision by PAC of major overhauls and upgrades of some or all of the airframes and engines of the EAF's appr. 45 Chengdu F-7B Fishbed tactical fighters at the F-6 Rebuild Facility, part of PAC. [Although called the F-6 Rebuild Facility, it undertakes major work on A-5, F-6 and F-7 types.] As well, similar work would be undertaken on some or all of the EAF's appr. 400 Mikoyan MiG-21PFS, MiG-21PFM and MiG-21MF Fishbed tactical fighters; appr. 10 Mikoyan MiG-21R Fishbed tactical reconnaissance aircraft; and appr.12 Mikoyan MiG-21UM/US Mongol operational trainers; as well as appr. 50 Shenyang F-6 Farmer tactical fighters; 5 Shenyang FT-6 Farmer operational trainers.
* The provision by Pakistan Ordnance Factories, at Wah Cantonment, near Islamabad, of a range of ordnance and munitions for the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Other as-yet unidentified goods and services to be provided by Pakistan to the Egyptian Armed Forces;
* Provision by Egypt of spare parts for the PAF's appr. 35 F-16A/B fighters.

=======================

As for the K-8's, it's not much different from getting training hours from a BAe Hawk.


p.s. - the US government did not object to Egypt providing F-16 spares to Pakistan, and Israel providing F-16 spares to Indonesia. IAI has an office in Jakarta.

[adeptitus]

The PLA budget is mostly spend on R&D, paying for the massive manpower (the plaaf alone have 200 000 personal? and the PLAN 400 000 correct?) mantianing the large force of obselete equipment that hasn't been phased out. Pakistan's airforce is half the size of India's. But look at the budget and the size of armies.

Jatt does bring up a good point. The PRC is under arms embargo and has to depend on Russian and domestic development to "catch up", versus other countries, such as India, can buy whatever they need from western sources. Generally speaking it's more cost effective to buy existing, proven military technology, at the expense of being reliant on imports.

Also, PRC's military budget has to feed 2.2 million people, versus other nations have far smaller standing military and can spend less for more $ per solider. For an example, Singapore is a dot on the map with only 4.43 million people, yet its military budget is larger than Pakistan's (!) and almost 3x that of Thailand. So we have a situation where, being much smaller and having only 1/10th the population, Singapore can afford to "give" used F-16's to Thailand and buy brand new F-15's.

[DPRKUnderground]

They learn't them. Sent their best pilots and aircraft too. But tell me how that matches up to India's annual exercises with America,Singapre,France and Cope Alaska?

No doubt the K-8 is a great trainer but this isn't anything like the MiG-ATs or Mako. So other than learning how to keep your bird in the air it doesn't simulate flying a real combat aircraft. And how does 2006 help the current PAF stature?

Maybe b/c the French, Americans, Singaporeans know they'll get their buts whooped! US pilots were saying that even in those old F-16s they perform very well! All they need is BVR and some more aircraft and their set!
The K-8 can fill that role. And I believe that the PAF has a trainer version of the F-7 which is apart of fighter conversion.

[MIGleader]

The PLA budget is mostly spend on R&D, paying for the massive manpower (the plaaf alone have 200 000 personal? and the PLAN 400 000 correct?) mantianing the large force of obselete equipment that hasn't been phased out. Pakistan's airforce is half the size of India's. But look at the budget and the size of armies.

so chinas operates outdated equipment? and india doesnt?

so far, both(pak and india) countrys have been spending on missles. they are even on that stage. aircraft are all foreign, so i cant judge.

[jatt]

so chinas operates outdated equipment? and india doesnt?

so far, both(pak and india) countrys have been spending on missles. they are even on that stage. aircraft are all foreign, so i cant judge.
What are you 12? Doesn't PLAAF have like around 2000 J-6s?;)

[tphuang]

PLAAF recently retired all of its J-6s. They are using the J-6s as UAVs now. The problem with China is that it is still cranking out J-7s and J-8s even at this point.

[jatt]

But still mantianing them. BTW what are PLAAF's and PLANs airarms numbers ORBAT?

[WebMaster]

Indians and their excuses... now they want to throw dirt at Chuck just to dispute historical facts.

[jatt]

I didn't dispute FACTS I disputed Chucks great phraise of the old PAF and obvious BIAS. And that claim is used NOW to set PAF high up in training. Indian excusess or blind BIAS? You dicide!
BTW I won't argue that PAF's supriorer pilots shot down many Indian jets in the OLD days. Those are FACTS.

[jatt]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_v17/ai_3959887
THE RIGHT STUFF IN THE WRONG PLACE

Most of us know by now about Chuck Yeager: World War II ace, first man to break the sound barrier, star of TV commercials, subject of a critically acclaimed book by Tom Wolfe and a Hollywood movie, and, most recently, author of a best-selling autobiography. Yeager's autobiography understandably focuses on his days as a war hero and America's greatest test pilot. He devotes just seven of the book's 340 pages to another period in his career, after age had grounded him and before The Right Stuff immortalized him. That was when I knew him, and for one rather giddy period of two weeks, I even served as his ostensible boss. The place was Pakistan, and what I saw of Yeager left me no doubt that he was a brave and courageous pilot. I much admired the man. Unfortunately, men like Yeager are well suited to play certain roles, but not others. In my guise as political counselor at the U.S. embassy there, I learned that the role of diplomat suited him as little as the role of test pilot would have suited me. I can well understand why his autobiography skips so lightly over this time of his life.

In 1970, the Air Force faced the problem so often encountered with aging super-pilots who manage to stay alive--namely, how to extract the 47-year-old Yeager from the cockpits in which he had spent his adult life and put him behind a desk. It wasn't made easier by Yeager's obvious lack of enthusiasm or talent for paperwork, office routines, and the principles of modern management. Shopping around for a quiet corner to place a brigadier general who also didn't fit comfortably into the mainstream of the military bureaucracy, someone finally suggested that he be sent off to head our Military Assistance Advisory Group in Pakistan.
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One might naturally think that a diplomatic assignment was about the worst place for a hell-bent-for-leather pilot. This assignment, however, wasn't as foolhardy as it looked. First, the job didn't involve diplomatic chores. We already had a whole diplomatic establishment--from ambassador to military attaches--in Pakistan. All the chief of the advisory group had to do was teach Pakistanis how to use American military equipment without killing themselves in the process. The job wasn't all that difficult because the Pakistani armed forces already were reasonably sophisticated. It was made still easier by the fact that, at the moment, they weren't getting any new American military equipment, having temporarily fallen out of our favor after attacking India in 1965.

In 1971, with his wife, Glennis, in tow, Yeager arrived in Pakistan's shiny new capital of Islamabad to head the group. Yeager's new command was a modest one: about four officers and a dozen enlisted men charged with the equally modest task of seeing that the residual trickle of American military aid was properly distributed to the Pakistanis. Not large enough for a separate existence, the group was part of the regular American diplomatic establishment, along with the political officers (over whom I presided), and the people who issued visas, got Americans out of jail, and handed out photographs of a smiling President Nixon.

The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan was a political appointee named Joseph Farland, a captain of industry from West Virginia, who had become president of a large coal company through perspicacity, hard work, and marrying the owner's daughter. Farland had held several small ambassadorships in Latin America during the Eisenhower administration. By virtue of this diplomatic experience, enhanced perhaps (or so Farland told me) by a generous contribution to Nixon's campaign, he had obtained the appointment to Pakistan. The depth of Farland's political understanding can be deduced from his rejoinder to an uncomplimentary remark I once made about the late dictator of the Dominican Republic, Rafael Trujillo, one of Latin America's more notorious thugs, in whose capital Farland had once served as American ambassador. "Ed,' he declared, "you don't understand. Trujillo was a fine man, an upstanding man. He was just misled by evil companions.'

Farland was inordinately vain, "in love,' as one of my political officers put it, "with his own right profile.' His only piece of artwork that hadn't been supplied by the Government Printing Office was an immense oil portrait of himself--an allegorical study of Farland in a gray suit, clutching a ship's wheel, profile extended, the American flag behind him, looking rather like a corporate Columbus approaching the New World. He knew little about the Indian subcontinent and didn't really like the place or its people. He did, however, have two virtues. Conscious of his limitations, he left the running of the embassy largely in the hands of his deputy, a talented career officer with decades of experience on the Indian subcontinent. And Farland wasn't around much, spending most of his time on vacations and incessant "business trips' back to the United States.

During the time he was unavoidably in residence in Pakistan, Farland developed a weekly routine that separated him as much as possible from the lively, dirty nation beyond his doors. Every Friday--Thursday on occasion--he would be chauffeured to his summer residence in the cool heights of Murree, a mountain resort an hour from Islamabad. There, in a large, walled palace perched on a ridge at the edge of the Himalayas, he would relax until Monday with a small coterie of court jesters, companions, and ladies-in-waiting. They would play bridge and parlor games, crack off-color jokes, serve bloody marys, and even dress in funny clothes and women's hats, secure from the world outside the walls.

It was into this sad little court that America's greatest test pilot was inducted when he and Glennis arrived in Islamabad in 1971. Yeager relates in his autobiography that Farland, a fellow West Virginian, had personally selected him for the military advisor's slot. This puzzles me because, arriving a few months later, I found that Farland had only the vaguest idea of Yeager's history, didn't realize he had broken the sound barrier, and wasn't all that sure what the sound barrier was. In any event, Farland quickly enlisted Yeager to play two key roles: weekend courtier at Murree and aerial chauffeur.

One of the perks of Yeager's position was a twin-engined Beechcraft, a small airplane supplied by the Pentagon to help keep track of the occasional pieces of American military equipment that sporadically showed up in the country. Farland, however, had other designs on the plane. An ardent fisherman, he found the Beechcraft was the ideal vehicle for transporting him to Pakistan's more remote lakes and rivers. Yeager's mission was not only to fly Farland to the fishing grounds, but to take on such logistical details as prepositioning the fishing poles, bourbon, and other essentials at the site. He performed these chores without complaint.

Yeager had the military man's awe of high civilian authority, and he treated the ambassador with the sort of deference that Farland relished but didn't get from the rest of us. But try as he might to be a good sport, Yeager didn't seem all that happy with his lot. Farland's habit of referring to him publicly as "my pilot' didn't help. I recall one weekend when Yeager brought up to Murree a movie projector and a Pentagon film showing how he had broken the sound barrier. I found it fascinating. The other courtiers made funny remarks, while, as I remember, Farland and his wife dozed.

Major Hoople meets Caliban

While Farland and his court cavorted at Murree, the country outside the palace walls began to crumble. Pakistan in 1971 encompassed both the present-day country and the more populous East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. The country's two wings were separated by a thousand miles of Indian territory and a massive cultural barrier. From its inception, Pakistan had been ruled by the politicians and soldiers of the West Wing, whose view of their Eastern compatriots was best expressed to me by a Pakistani general: "Our East Wing, you see, is a low-lying country inhabited by . . . heh, heh . . . low, lying people.'

In early 1971, the Western rulers inexplicably permitted a free, nationwide election--the first in the country's history. The downtrodden masses of East Pakistan united behind a single candidate, swept the polls, and ended up in complete control of the nation's parliament. The dumbfounded Westerners promptly annulled the election, tossed the victorious Eastern leaders in jail, and shipped a good part of Pakistan's army to the East to ensure tranquility. The result was a campaign of brutal oppression, followed quickly by a civil war, the flight of ten million refugees into neighboring India, and, in due course, Indian intervention in support of the resistance.
Back in Islamabad, we at the embassy were increasingly preoccupied with the deepening crisis. Meetings became more frequent and more tense. The ambassador fulminated against our consulate in Dhaka, East Pakistan's capital, for reporting to the State Department the enormity of the slaughter. We argued over what we should recommend to Washington, and we were troubled by the complex questions that the conflict raised.

That is, most of us were troubled. No such doubts seemed to cross the mind of Chuck Yeager. I remember one occasion on which Farland asked Yeager for his assessment of how long the Pakistani forces in the East could withstand an all-out attack by India. "We could hold them off for maybe a month,' he replied, "but beyond that we wouldn't have a chance without help from outside.' It took the rest of us a moment to fathom what he was saying, not realizing at first that the "we' was West Pakistan, not the United States. After the meeting, I mumbled something to Yeager about perhaps being a little more even-handed in his comments. He gave me a withering glance. "Goddamn it, we're assigned to Pakistan,' he said. "What's wrong with being loyal?!' Disloyally, I slunk away.

The dictator of Pakistan at the time, the one who had ordered the crackdown in the East, was a dim-witted general named Yahya Khan. Way over his head in events he couldn't begin to understand, Yahya took increasingly to brooding and drinking. Somehow he also took a fancy to Farland, who had met with him on several occasions to deliver suggestions and ukases from Washington. He would invite the reluctant ambassador over to his office to drink and brood with him. It would have been fun to hear their conversations: Major Hoople chatting with Caliban. The link proved less useful than we hoped, however, as it became clear that Yahya was more interested in having a drinking partner than an advisor.

In December of 1971, with Indian-supplied guerrillas applying more and more pressure on his beleaguered forces, Yahya decided on a last, hopeless gesture of defiance. He ordered what was left of his armed forces to attack India directly from the West. His air force roared across the border on the afternoon of December 3 to bomb Indian air bases, while his army crashed into India's defenses on the Western frontier.

Yahya's attack caught the embassy more than normally unprepared. As it happened, Farland's deputy, the career officer who had actually been running the embassy, was halfway around the world on a long-delayed vacation. Although he rushed back, it was several days before he could reach war-torn Islamabad. Meanwhile, Farland was quite uncomfortable, since he was now in actual, rather than nominal, control of the embassy. Faced with a host of urgent decisions, he sat frozen behind his desk, unable to decide on much of anything (which, in retrospect, turned out to be the best thing to do). Yeager, meanwhile, spent the first hours of the war stalking the embassy corridors like Henry V before Agincourt, snarling imprecations at the Indians and assuring anyone who would listen that the Pakistani army would be in New Delhi within a week.

It was the morning after the initial Pakistani strike that Yeager began to take the war with India personally. On the eve of their attack, the Pakistanis had been prudent enough to evacuate their planes from airfields close to the Indian border and move them back into the hinterlands. But no one thought to warn General Yeager. Thus, when an Indian fighter pilot swept low over Islamabad's airport in India's first retaliatory strike, he could see only two small planes on the ground. Dodging antiaircraft fire, he blasted both to smithereens with 20-millimeter cannon fire. One was Yeager's Beechcraft. The other was a plane used by United Nations forces to supply the patrols that monitored the ceasefire line in Kashmir.

I never found out how the United Nations reacted to the destruction of its plane, but Yeager's response was anything but dispassionate. He raged to his cowering colleagues at a staff meeting. His voice resounding through the embassy, he proclaimed that the Indian pilot not only knew exactly what he was doing but had been specifically instructed by Indira Gandhi to blast Yeager's plane. ("It was,' he relates in his book, "the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.') At this meeting, I ventured the timid suggestion that, to an Indian pilot skimming the ground at 500 miles per hour under antiaircraft fire, precise identification of targets on an enemy airfield might take lower priority than simply hitting whatever was there and then getting the hell out. Restraining himself with difficulty, Yeager informed me that anyone dumb enough not to know a deliberate attack on the American flag when he saw one had no business wearing his country's uniform. Since I was a civilian wearing a gray sweater at the time, I didn't fully grasp his nuances, but the essential meaning was clear.

Our response to this Indian atrocity, as I recall, was a top priority cable to Washington that described the incident as a deliberate affront to the American nation and recommended immediate countermeasures. I don't think we ever got an answer.

The destruction of the Beechcraft was the last straw for Yeager. He vanished from his office, and, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't seen again in Islamabad until the war was over. It wasn't a long period; the Indians took only two weeks to trounce the Pakistanis. East Pakistan, known as Bangladesh, became an independent country, and Yahya resigned in disgrace. He was so drunk during his televised farewell speech that the camera focused not on him but on a small table radio across the room.

And where had Yeager been during these dramatic two weeks? The slim entries in his autobiography aren't much help. Yeager says that he "didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would have been too touchy.' He then goes on to explain casually that he did "fly around' on such chores as picking up Indian pilots who had been shot down, interrogating them, and hauling them off to prison camps. There are clues, however, that suggest a more active role. A Pakistani businessman, son of a senior general, told me excitedly that Yeager had moved into the big air force base at Peshawar and was personally directing the grateful Pakistanis in deploying their fighter squadrons against the Indians. Another swore that he had seen Yeager emerge from a just-landed jet fighter at the Peshawar base. Yeager was uncharacteristically close-mouthed in succeeding weeks, but a sly grin would appear on his leathery face when we rehashed the war in staff meetings. I once asked him point-blank what he had been up to during the war. "I went fishing,' he growled.

Human fighter jet

After the war, Yeager had even less to do in Pakistan since the tiny pre-war trickle of American arms had been shut off completely. He divided his time largely between the Pakistani air force, where he was a welcome compatriot in the mess halls, and the mountains of the far north, where he carried on a running war with the resident population of wild sheep.

Before Yeager left Pakistan in early 1973, I had one last memorable encounter with him. The career officer who had quietly run the embassy for Farland had become the embassy's acting chief upon Farland's departure shortly after the war. (Farland was reassigned to Iran, only to be unceremoniously removed after a few months to make way for Richard Helms, whose recently exposed activities as CIA director had made him somewhat of an embarrassment in Washington.) When the situation in Pakistan had sufficiently calmed, the deputy decided to resume his interrupted vacation. Some weeks later the next man on the totem pole decided to take his vacation. I suddenly found myself elevated to the position of mission chief ad interim, complete with a flag-flying limousine and the right to sign my name to all cables leaving the embassy. (A flood of cables quickly went out to our missions in every world capital I could think of.)

One morning, as I contemplated the world from my exalted position, the embassy's public relations officer frantically called. Had I seen that morning's news summary? The wire services were carrying a story from Islamabad quoting an unnamed American embassy official as making some dreadfully undiplomatic statements. I don't recall the exact words--something about Indian perfidy and the resumption of American military aid to Pakistan--but when I saw the piece it was all to obvious that the source could only have been Yeager.
As my colleagues quickly pointed out, I had no choice other than to call Yeager in and read him the riot act. With some reluctance, I asked my secretary to phone General Yeager and have him come to my office. I leaned back, wondering which approach to use with him: a stern fatherly lecture (I was a year older than he), a cold, level-voiced scolding, or a more-in-sorrow-than-anger admonition. I had tentatively decided to blend the latter two techniques when my secretary buzzed me, the door flew open, and in marched Yeager.

He had obviously seen the offending news report and knew exactly why he had been summoned. (I suspect the story was the product of some casual comments to newsmen that Yeager hadn't really intended to be repeated and that he was as surprised as anyone to see them in print.) In any event, Yeager had decided on an age-old strategy of his own--that the best defense is a good offense.

As I opened my mouth to suggest he sit down, Yeager began his first strafing run. Who-the-hell-was-I-to-call-him-in, and he didn't-have-to-take-any-crap-from-me, and what-he-told-the-press-was-none-of-my-goddamned-business. Before I could get a word out, he whipped around, rhetorical guns blazing, for his second pass.

d-take-them-up-with-the

If-I-had-any-complaints-I-could-take-them-up-with-the-Defense-Depart m ent, and he-was-sick-of-mush-mouthed-diplomats-screwing-things-up. His target in flames, or at least breathless, he fired a few parting shots, spun on his heels, and marched smartly out. I had been able to get across a total of four, perhaps five, words before being blasted out of the sky. You win some, you lose some.

I saw Yeager a few other times before he left Pakistan. But that's the way I'll always remember him, straight as a ramrod, striding out of my office, rectitude intact--and with the Right Stuff.

[tphuang]

But still mantianing them. BTW what are PLAAF's and PLANs airarms numbers ORBAT?
that you can probably find out in SD's homepage, they have ORBAT for PLAN and PLAAF there.

The J-6s are just kept basically to be used as UAVs in the future. That's at least better than just throw it in the trash.

[WebMaster]

So because he was assigned to Pakistan, that translate to his automatic bias for India?
It seems every body wants to blame somebody else for their failures without even disputing the facts.

[jatt]

Whatt he hell are you talking about? I'm not disputing facts and figures about number of kills etc... and making NO excuse forthe InAFs terrieble loss rate!
All i'm saying is that guy obviously held bias. The InAF did blow up his plane! He can phraise the PAF pilots all he wants but it was overally exagerated to some point. Read the article.

[Gollevainen]

cool down Jatt, there's no point of arguing against webmaster...your point is taken....

[MIGleader]

But still mantianing them. BTW what are PLAAF's and PLANs airarms numbers ORBAT?

what are u talking about? using the j-6s as attack uav is a billion dollars cheaper then trying to develop a attack drone cruise missle like brahmos.

just cause chuck yeager was, and associated with pakistan dosnt mean he had to hate india. his supersonic flights are the basework for any planes india is operating now, so be thankful.

[darth sidious]

But still mantianing them. BTW what are PLAAF's and PLANs airarms numbers ORBAT?

right now the j-6 are converted to uav and stoerd in some caves. so I do see how that going to cost the plaf a huge amount of money especialy compared with designing new ones

[bd popeye]

right now the j-6 are converted to uav and stoerd in some caves. so I do see how that going to cost the plaf a huge amount of money especialy compared with designing new ones

It will cost money because they have to be maintained. The engines and systems need to be operated from time to time. They do not need to be flown just operated. And they must be in some sort of state of preservation. They just can't be stored and be expected to operate in time of need(war)

I'm sure the PLAAF is taking care of them. Any links about the J-6 being converted to UAV's?

Thanks.

[MIGleader]

well, its a j-5, not a j-6...
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/uav/j5.asp
ideal for decoys, drones, training, kamikaze, and force multipliers. plus it flys supersonic due to the reduced weight. thats something a 500,000$ missle like the tomahawk cant even do.

[rommel]

well, its a j-5, not a j-6...
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/uav/j5.asp
ideal for decoys, drones, training, kamikaze, and force multipliers. plus it flys supersonic due to the reduced weight. thats something a 500,000$ missle like the tomahawk cant even do.

well, a Tomahawk's cost is like 100,000$

Anyway, I think that UAV have nothing to do with PILOT TRAINING please get back to the topic...

[DPRKUnderground]

Whatt he hell are you talking about? I'm not disputing facts and figures about number of kills etc... and making NO excuse forthe InAFs terrieble loss rate!
All i'm saying is that guy obviously held bias. The InAF did blow up his plane! He can phraise the PAF pilots all he wants but it was overally exagerated to some point. Read the article.

Even before his plane was shot at by the Indians, he knew that Pakistani pilots kicked @$$. The numbers tell! 5-1 kill ratio in the air is crazy!

[SU 30MKI]

Even before his plane was shot at by the Indians, he knew that Pakistani pilots kicked @$$. The numbers tell! 5-1 kill ratio in the air is crazy!

Oh Man, I never heard so much of propoganda ....like nepal established a manned colony in Mars in year 2004. :rofl: :roll: :rofl:

Mr DPRK Underground get you facts Straight.......

PAF ORBAT in 1971:

1 Mirage IIIEP squadron
2 B-57B squadrons
1 F-104A squadron
3 F-6 squadrons
6 F-86 Sabre squadrons

11 Sq. of Morden Plane capable of Launching A2A missiles Vs 8 Mig 21fl Sq and Vintage bullets firing plane.

Given the larger number of sorties mounted by the IAF in 1971, a larger number of aircraft were lost. To all causes and for all types the losses totaled 100 aircraft, of which 90 were probably combat types. In the Eastern sector the IAF flew 2000 sorties and lost 15 aircraft (a 0.75% loss rate). The PAF in the same sector lost 17 aircraft in 50 sorties (a 38% loss rate).

In the west the IAF flew 5000 combat sorties, losing 49 combat aircraft (a 0.98% loss rate). In the same theatre the PAF lost 33 combat aircraft in 2840 sorties (1.16% loss rate). The majority of IAF losses were due to ground fire and the IAF has subsequently criticized the Indian Army for calling in air strikes, when its artillery could have done the job as effectively.

[Kampfwagen]

Eherm, lessie.

1. Canada
2. U.S
3. Isreal
4. India
5. Pakistan

I put pakistan at the botom of the list because of the conflicting information I have seen. It's difficult to tell what is propaganda and what is the bonified truth anymore.

[jatt]

MKI do you have source? Also I have heard that the PAF were on defensive so a large number of their kills were on ground attack aircrafts.

[DPRKUnderground]

Oh Man, I never heard so much of propoganda ....like nepal established a manned colony in Mars in year 2004. :rofl: :roll: :rofl:

Mr DPRK Underground get you facts Straight.......

PAF ORBAT in 1971:

1 Mirage IIIEP squadron
2 B-57B squadrons
1 F-104A squadron
3 F-6 squadrons
6 F-86 Sabre squadrons

11 Sq. of Morden Plane capable of Launching A2A missiles Vs 8 Mig 21fl Sq and Vintage bullets firing plane.

Given the larger number of sorties mounted by the IAF in 1971, a larger number of aircraft were lost. To all causes and for all types the losses totaled 100 aircraft, of which 90 were probably combat types. In the Eastern sector the IAF flew 2000 sorties and lost 15 aircraft (a 0.75% loss rate). The PAF in the same sector lost 17 aircraft in 50 sorties (a 38% loss rate).

In the west the IAF flew 5000 combat sorties, losing 49 combat aircraft (a 0.98% loss rate). In the same theatre the PAF lost 33 combat aircraft in 2840 sorties (1.16% loss rate). The majority of IAF losses were due to ground fire and the IAF has subsequently criticized the Indian Army for calling in air strikes, when its artillery could have done the job as effectively.

Where did you get those facts? Have you ever heard about the squadron in East Pakistan? They were way out numbered and the Indians kept on coming in with fighters trying to take out the base but were always fooled by the dummy aircraft. When the F-86s came out in East Pakistan, it would be a turkey shoot! ACIG.org shows that F-86s shot down MiG-21s!

[jatt]

No oneliners....and everyone, dare not to take this thread to India-pakistan conflict...so cool down!