zubr completed?

[tphuang]

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Get/WQZB/0216101254.htm
Interesting http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Files/BeyondPic/2_132_cedd297687b1323.jpg
Basically, this is just saying that China signed a deal for 2 Zubrs built in Russia plus licensed production of Zubr. The first one is almost complete.

You can check subr's info here
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/amphibious/zubr.asp

Interestingly, this is from the Russians:
http://www.wps.ru/en/digests/en/military/
SHIPYARDS TRY TO SHARE CHINESE ZUBR
These are: CB Almaz and FSUE Khabarovsk Shipyard
FSUE Rosoboronexport wwill renew the negotiation process with China about the construction of paratrooper ships Zubr. SHIPYARD ALMAZ AND KHABAROVSK SHIPYARD COMPETE FOR A GRAND ORDER ON CONSTRUCTING THE PARATROOPER SHIPS ZUBR FOR CHINA
Kommersant (St. Petersburg), February 8, 2006, p. EV

[MIGleader]

China bought Zubrs? thats some major news. I thought it was never going to happen...

How much did china pay, and how many zubrs is it allowed to liscence produce. Are there any upgrades doen to these zubrs?

[tphuang]

originally, this was just a speculation by Kanwa, I think. I'm still not sure if this story is true or not.
http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/948/200591015245123313ep.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9349/200591212534381045qe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Lavi]

It would be quite interesting to see how an air-cushion craft would manage in a real war zone, I suppose the proppellers could be quite vulnerable. I feel it might be one of those projects which real value you don't know until it actually is battletested. The same goes for the US ACV's.

[bangladesh]

use RPG or LAW or LONG RANGE ROCKET
the proppeller will be screwed all of them

[tphuang]

I caught this on the news wire

Almaz plant to sign contract with China to build six Zubr class ships

ST. PETERSBURG. Sept 1 (Interfax) - St. Petersburg-based
shipbuilder Almaz will sign a contract with China on the construction of
six Zubr class assault hovercrafts, Leonid Grabovets, the director
general of the enterprise, told journalists on Friday.
"We are going to finish talks with China this year and sign a
contract with that country in 2007," he said.
The 540-tonne Zubr hovercraft can reach speeds of over 60 knots. It
is 57 meters long and 22.5 meters wide. The ship can carry 500 marines
and three tanks weighing 50 tonnes each. The hovercraft is armed with
two MS-227 missile launchers, with 66 rounds, and two AK-630M gun mounts
to protect the vessel from air attack.
The Almaz plant specializes in building military ships. It builds
ships and motorboats for the Russian navy and has participated in
international military cooperation for many years. The plant
successfully executed a contract to build three Zubr hovercrafts for the
Greek navy,

[Shingy]

use RPG or LAW or LONG RANGE ROCKET
the proppeller will be screwed all of them

Is it not the fact, that they are so fast, its will be hard to hit them?

[chicket9]

One rocket hit or not, I don't think these ships were designed to take a substantial beating as such. However, 60 knots is something PLAN probably would like to add, rather than having just 12 knot LCMs or huge vulnerable LSTs. With sufficient air cover and good countermeasures (and if those AK630s can take down an incoming missile or two), and coupled with the Zubr's speed, it should be able to quickly deliver SOF troops quite well.

Same thing with US LCACs. They too aren't tested in combat yet. In fact, LCAC's advantages are speed and can operate from amphib ships which the Zubr cannot, but I regard LCAC even more vulnerable considering it has no CIWS!

[bd popeye]

Same thing with US LCACs. They too aren't tested in combat yet. In fact, LCAC's advantages are speed and can operate from amphib ships which the Zubr cannot, but I regard LCAC even more vulnerable considering it has no CIWS!

True enough. But LCAC's have air cover from Super Cobra's and Harriers. And in the next few years F-35 JSF. Also USMC/USN doctroine calls for amphibous landings to take place behind enemy lines to establish a base. And not to directly confront the enemey with a "D-Day" type amphibous landing.

[sumdud]

Same thing with US LCACs. They too aren't tested in combat yet. In fact, LCAC's advantages are speed and can operate from amphib ships which the Zubr cannot, but I regard LCAC even more vulnerable considering it has no CIWS! What'd you mean? Aren't Zubrs suppose to be about to launch from amphib ships?

This thing is probably too big to be stealthy for SOFs, but its fast speed and high payload makes deliveries quick and shocking.

The Marines might need it. I don't think all of their vehicles are amphibious.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Can that new LHD they've been looking at be able to hold Zubrs?

I mean it can hold four air cushion craft, but are Zubrs too big for it?

[bd popeye]

Can that new LHD they've been looking at be able to hold Zubrs?

I mean it can hold four air cushion craft, but are Zubrs too big for it?
10 Hours Ago 11:07 PM


I think you mean LPD. Personally I think the Zubrs are too large for storage in a well deck. Those things are huge. 184 feet long. Probally 18-20 feet high. You might get one in the well deck...Rusia built only 10 Zubr's..:confused: And has built two since 1994. That in 2000 for the Hellenic Navy(Greece)

An USN LCAC is much smaller only 81 feet in lenght. USN amphib ships carry a squadron of four. The USN has 91 active LCAC's.

[Vlad Plasmius]

I think you mean LPD.

I mean LHD.

The PLA Navy is considering to build new 15,000 to 20,000t LHD class amphibious ships that uses new hovercraft tank and troop conveyers and large transport helicopters, allowing assaults from greater distance and against more difficult shore terrain. Shown in the photo is a model of the possible LHD design by China National Shipbuilding Co. The ship features large stern helicopter flight deck, and dock to accommodate four large air cushion landing crafts.

Source: Chinese Defence Today (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/amphibious/lhd.asp)

I'm just wondering if Zubr is too large though. It would seem odd for China to think about such a ship if there wasn't a reliable LCAC. Also, if you look at the picture, it does sort of look like a Zubr in the model.

[bd popeye]

Vlad Plasmius, That is exactly what I'm talking about. That ship is an LPD by most countries standards. Compare it to the USN San Antiono class LPD

http://navysite.de/ships/lpd-images/lpd17_6.jpg

http://thesaltysailor.com/ships/covers/shipevent/LPD-17-cut-away.jpg

In my view the PLAN LHD is an LPD. This is a USN LHD.

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/060824-N-8547M-162.jpg

But the PLAN can call it what ever it wants. It is their ship.

I agree that the Zubr is too large for the type ship the PLAN will some day put to sea. That Zubr is a monster 184ft(56 meters) long? Probally only one could fit into the well deck of the PLAN LHD/LPD.

[Vlad Plasmius]

I agree that the Zubr is too large for the type ship the PLAN will some day put to sea. That Zubr is a monster 184ft(56 meters) long? Probally only one could fit into the well deck of the PLAN LHD/LPD.

Hmmm, well having looked at it, either 15,000 to 20,000 tons is dead weight and its actualy tonnage is substantially larger or a smaller LCAC is intended for China's amphibious ship.

Of course, China doesn't have any such project currently except the Zubr. My only thought other than it being a very large LHD, or perhaps simply a substantially different design, is that China's purchasing the Zubrs and producing them so they can use that knowledge to create a smaller version domestically to use in the PLAN's amphibious forces. Other than that I can't see any practical reason for China acquiring the Zubr in regard to it having an apmhibious assault ship.

[zyun8288]

I think it's just a minor translation problem. In chinese, 071 is called something like LPD. The rumored LHD is yet to show up.

[Jeff Head]

I think it's just a minor translation problem. In chinese, 071 is called something like LPD. The rumored LHD is yet to show up.Yep...the 071, though they are calling it an LHD, looks a lot like the US San Antonio Class LPD.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/PLAN-LPD-TYPE071-04.jpg
PLAN LHD, Type 071

http://www.jeffhead.com/worldwideaircraftcarriers/sanantonio6.jpg
US San Antonio Class LPD

[isthvan]

Zubr wasn’t designed to operate from amphibious ships…

It was designed for Soviet naval infantry and its task was to carry out short-range rapid sea-lift and beach landing of assault troops and combat materiel on territory held by hostile forces; so basically to conduct fast amphibious assaults in Norway, Denmark, and even Iceland, size vital installations thus opening way for main amphibious force…

While Zubr class has some shortcomings they will still greatly improve PLAN amphibious capabilities and they are great replacement for older obsolete amphibious ships PLAN currently use…

[bd popeye]

Thanks for the great discussion guys.

Looking at that cut-away of the PLAN LHD I see amphib landing craft. Just pretend those are zubr's..That would mean the well deck is 736ft(224meters) Long. So that translates into a ship over 1000 feet long(304 meters). That's not going to happen! So maybe just maybe the PLAN has a much smaller version of the Zubr in R & D?

While Zubr class has some shortcomings they will still greatly improve PLAN amphibious capabilities and they are great replacement for older obsolete amphibious ships PLAN currently use…

The thing that impresses me the most is the speed and it's armament. To bad only a handful still exist.:(

[isthvan]

Thanks for the great discussion guys.

Looking at that cut-away of the PLAN LHD I see amphib landing craft. Jusst pretentd those are zubr's..That would mean the well deck is 736ft(224meters) Long. So that translates into a ship over 1000 feet long(304 meters). That's not going to happen! So maybe just maybe the PLAN has a much smaller version of the Zubr in R & D?

The thing that impresses me the most is the speed and it's armament. To bad only a handful still exist.:(


I agree that those aren’t Zubr class landing crafts… If we compare size of helicopters (looks like Mi-17) and landing crafts I would say that those landing crafts are some 25m long…
I would say that it is quite possible that PLAN plans to develop smaller version of Zubr for new LHD/LPD… So I would say that future PLAN LPD will be some 150-170 m long(so similar in size to Netherlands Rotterdam class LPD).

I agree that it is shame that Zubr (like so many late Soviet developed military projects) wasn’t build in supposed numbers… Those are quite impressive ships and will provide substantial rise in PLAN amphibious abilities (much more agility and speed compared to current amphibious assets)…

[chicket9]

I think we should stop using 'mini' or 'smaller-scale' 'ZUBRs'....because YES the Type 71LHD will be operating a cusion craft that can carry vehicles and troops, but that does not mean its a 'mini' ZUBR...in fact such craft would be more related to the LCAC than any ZUBR. There is no such thing as the mini-Zubr. Zubr simply was never designed to operate from LHD platforms (unless as said, there is some 300m+ ship). It is too tall to be fitted in any docking well, as well as too wide and lengthy. It is not as flexible as LCAC, in terms of roll on-roll off, etc.

But Zubr as a short range high speed infantry/tank transport is definitely a yes. Suitable for Taiwan strait, or quick assaults against Matsu and Quemoy islands. Fast enough to probably shake off any artillery/MLRS attacks, and has definitely a higher chance of dodging or fending off a missile attack than any current LSM/LCM.

I'd say one Zubr would have the effectiveness of five PLAN LCMs. If China fielded 12 Zubrs, that would be quite a capability and achievement.

However, I'm not saying that LCMs and LCUs and LSMs be replaced as such. When the real fighting starts after a beachhead is established, and in terms of logistics and lifting of most heavy equipment, it is these old, vulnerable, but rugged workhorses that will carry most of the burden.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Yep...the 071, though they are calling it an LHD, looks a lot like the US San Antonio Class LPD.

I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.

Even our LHDs can only carry three LCACs. The Wasp is about 850 feet long. So if the PLAN LHD can carry four, it could very well be over 1000 feet long.

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.

[Jeff Head]

I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.I'd say, from the picture, that the vessel is really only capable of carrying three. The last one appears to be sticking right at or out the end.

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.Now I think you are hitting on the real issue. Those craft are smaller than US LCAC in my opinion.

In addition, even though the lines are roughly similar, and the function would also be similar, I believe the PLAN LPD will in fact be smaller than the US San Antonio class which comes in at 25,000t. I expect the PLAN LPD to be more on the order of 18,000t.

Here's the best pic of a San Antonio I have seen yet, operational, with the RAM launchers in place:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/lpd-17_060524-n-7365v-032.jpg

[isthvan]

I think we should stop using 'mini' or 'smaller-scale' 'ZUBRs'....because YES the Type 71LHD will be operating a cusion craft that can carry vehicles and troops, but that does not mean its a 'mini' ZUBR...in fact such craft would be more related to the LCAC than any ZUBR. There is no such thing as the mini-Zubr. Zubr simply was never designed to operate from LHD platforms (unless as said, there is some 300m+ ship). It is too tall to be fitted in any docking well, as well as too wide and lengthy. It is not as flexible as LCAC, in terms of roll on-roll off, etc.

Sorry for misunderstanding but when I was talking about smaller scale Zubr I didn’t mean that PLAN will simple develop scale down version of it… I was referring to possibility that PLAN could use Zubr as reference platform for familiarization whit such craft and production of indigenous LCAC platform based on Zubr tech... thats all...

I don't think so. They look similar, but that's because both are using stealth-shaping. The tonnage and fact it shows four LCACs suggest that it isn't an LPD. San Antonio can only carry two LCACs.

Even our LHDs can only carry three LCACs. The Wasp is about 850 feet long. So if the PLAN LHD can carry four, it could very well be over 1000 feet long.

Either that or these LCACs are even smaller.

I can’t completely agree…

First of all we don’t even know if this model represents 071LHD… according to Sinodefence it is only proposition by China National Shipbuilding Co.

Secondly we really don’t know what LCAC type landing crafts this ship caries… This could be Chinese Type 724 (carried by Yuting class)… So ship could be even smaller then San Antonio class...

Thirdly I somewhat doubt that new PLAN amphibious platform will have more then 18000t displacement, IMHO type 071 will probably be more similar in size to Singapore Endurance class LST/LPD or Rotterdam class LPD…

[zyun8288]

I am a bit lost here.

What I have known is China is building a 19000 ton LPD called 071.

Also, there has been a rumor of a LHD or Heli carrier or Amph. Attack Ship (This is the name used in china). I do have a feeling that, for years, this is the project that led many external observors believe that China would only go for a small Heli Carrier first.

And ironnically, after 5 years, most of the rumors showed up, but this Amph. Attack Ship is still hiding somewhere, no real photo evidences at all.

[Vlad Plasmius]

Jeff Head

I'd say, from the picture, that the vessel is really only capable of carrying three. The last one appears to be sticking right at or out the end.

Doesn't look like that to me. I don't see why thy would put four LCACs in there if it can only carry three.

In addition, even though the lines are roughly similar, and the function would also be similar, I believe the PLAN LPD will in fact be smaller than the US San Antonio class which comes in at 25,000t. I expect the PLAN LPD to be more on the order of 18,000t.

Unless 15,000 to 20,000 is the full load range, it will either be as big as San Antonio or larger.

isthvan

Secondly we really don’t know what LCAC type landing crafts this ship caries… This could be Chinese Type 724 (carried by Yuting class)… So ship could be even smaller then San Antonio class...

It's definitely not 724. It would not be much good for any kind of modern amphibious warfare ship. That would give this ship the ability to only deliver 40 troops at any time using all of those.

Thirdly I somewhat doubt that new PLAN amphibious platform will have more then 18000t displacement, IMHO type 071 will probably be more similar in size to Singapore Endurance class LST/LPD or Rotterdam class LPD…

I don't see why. China certainly would have the ability to develop something larger. Something larger would be more in China's interests.

[Jeff Head]

Doesn't look like that to me. I don't see why thy would put four LCACs in there if it can only carry three. Unless 15,000 to 20,000 is the full load range, it will either be as big as San Antonio or larger.Like I said...principally, I believe those craft are smaller than the USN LCAC, and I believe the PLAN LPD will be smaller than the San Antonio. Time will tell...but those are my predictions.

[isthvan]

It's definitely not 724. It would not be much good for any kind of modern amphibious warfare ship. That would give this ship the ability to only deliver 40 troops at any time using all of those.

I used type724 as example… AFAWK this could be Chinese counterpart of Lebed class… My point was that we joust can’t know what type of LCAC this is…


I don't see why. China certainly would have the ability to develop something larger. Something larger would be more in China's interests.

I joust think that based on previous Chinese amphibious ship development it would be too soon to expect something in that size class… I’m not saying that PLAN can’t build this ship but I have some doubts that they won’t ship of this size; so I’m putting my $0.02 on something comparable to Rotterdam class LPD…

[zyun8288]

Up until now, I only heard 2 figures on this 071's size: 19000ton by all sorts of sources, and 9000 ton from one Kanwa article.

hopefully sometime in the first half of next year we will see it in the water then we can measure it.

Please check the latest picture of 071 and 054A in the image section posted by tphuang.

071 looks pretty big compared to the 4000ton 054A

[tphuang]

Please check the latest picture of 071 and 054A in the image section posted by tphuang.

071 looks pretty big compared to the 4000ton 054A

here is this picture.
http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/48/071054asep9sp3.jpg

Zyun, the problem is that I'm not convinced the one on the bottom right is 054A. Also, I'd think 054A would be larger than 4000 tonnes. Even 054 is 3900 tonnes.

[zyun8288]

My focus is actually this big ship does not look the same as the model.

[tphuang]

My focus is actually this big ship does not look the same as the model.

yeah, it could be larger than people expect. I don't think the actual ships are going to look exactly like the models. The models may be just one of the early concepts or they may be export variants proposed.

[john fryer]

:) Hi Everyone, my name is John Fryer and although I have been a frequent visitor to Sinodefence, today is my first day as a registered member of the forum.

I have also been a frequent visitor to both Kanwa and the Chinese Military Forum. I do, however, spend most of the time that I am online visiting the Chinese Defense Forum.

Thanks,

Peace,

"To Get Rich 'IN SERVICE TO THE PEOPLE' Is Good!"

John Fryer

[Jeff Head]

:) Hi Everyone, my name is John Fryer and although I have been a frequent visitor to Sinodefence, today is my first day as a registered member of the forum.Welcome aboard John, happy sea faring, and hope you find all the info and dialog you are looking for. It's really an informative place.

[tphuang]

I can't believe this is still in discussion, because it was thought to be completed last year, but that's the word according to this article

St. Petersburg. September 4. INTERFAX - Russian warship builder Almaz is
in negotiations with China and seeks to sell four Zubr amphibious
hovercraft to that country, the shipyard's marketing director, Sergei
Galichenko, said on Monday.
Galichenko expects the talks to conclude in 2008.
Russian state weapons exporter Rosoboronexport is brokering the talks,
Galichenko added.
He said Almaz, based in St. Petersburg, might also export one or two
Svetlyak escort boats to Vietnam and that Vietnam was expected to send
in an order for the vessels very soon.
Almaz builds vessels for the Russian navy and has been exporting its
products for many years.

[Finn McCool]

I can't believe this is still in discussion, because it was thought to be completed last year, but that's the word according to this article

Do you think that is correct? I haven't been following the Zubrs but it seems to me that this is a major surprise. I thought that one was done already and now we hear that they are only in talks?