Its Official Japan not Tiawan is the potential flashpoint

[SampanViking]

Well I have been saying thos for some time, but an interesting article I have just lifted from Taiwans China Post says it all rather eloquently.


Japan says managing crisis with China critical (updated 12:27 a.m.)


2006/2/15
By P. Parameswaran, WASHINGTON, AFP



Japan said Monday that managing its deteriorating ties with China had become critical amid warnings of a potential military conflict between the neighbors that could drag in the United States.
"Any mismanagement can lead to unintended results," Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman Akira Chiba told reporters after speaking at a forum in Washington on the troubled Sino-Japanese ties.

He was responding to a warning by a former senior US State Department official at the meeting of increasing prospects of a military conflict between the two Asian giants that would make American involvement inevitable.

"The management of the situation is extremely important," Chiba said, adding that he was however "optimistic of the wisdom" of the Chinese and Japanese governments in preventing the situation from worsening.

Sino-Japanese ties have soured over Japan's wartime legacy, fuelled by visits by Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the Yasukuni Shrine, and the publication of Japanese textbooks that allegedly whitewash Japanese wartime atrocities.

Frictions have also occurred over Beijing's opposition to Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council.

But Chiba said "the juicy issue" amid the sagging relations between Tokyo and Beijing was the question of a "strategic realignment" in China-Russia ties.

"The question is that the history issue is not taken care of by the art of diplomacy," he said.

"The strategic alignment or realignment can be confrontation or collaboration," he said, referring to the once close ties between Japan and China against the former Soviet Union during the Cold War.

While Sino-Japanese ties have plummeted to one of their worst levels, China-Russia relations have grown closer recently.

Moscow and Beijing have wiped out old border conflicts, signed new trade accords and held large-scale joint military maneuvers.

Some analysts see the Sino-Russian rapprochement as a sign of a desire to wrest military and economic power in the Asia-Pacific region from the United States, which is linked by a half century military alliance with Japan.

"There is an increasing chance of a military miscalculation, miscommunication between the Japan and China militaries that could involve the United States," warned Randall Schriver, a former top East Asian official at the State Department during President George W. Bush's first term of office.

"My understanding is the militaries are coming into contacts (with) the potential for a more dangerous situation," he said.

A Chinese naval destroyer took aim at a Japanese military surveillance aircraft near their disputed waters in September 2005, and a Chinese nuclear-powered submarine entered Japanese waters off the Okinawa Islands a year earlier.

On a number of occasions, Chinese research vessels have also intruded into Japanese waters without giving prior notification.

"I am more worried about a conflagration in the East China Sea than in the Taiwan Strait," said Dan Blumenthal, a former senior director for China, Taiwan and Mongolia at the Pentagon.

He said the Asian region was "very worried" about a potential conflict between Japan and China.

Yang Bojiang, a visiting Chinese scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington, told the forum that Chinese leaders were more interested in resolving rising domestic issues than going to war.

He cited recent surveys on Chinese Web sites on 2006 challenges, saying the first nine out of the 10 priorities cited by the Chinese were domestic issues.

"Only the 10th was (related to) diplomacy," Yang said. "I don't think the attack of a foreign country is the highest concern of the Chinese leaders," he said.

Schriver said he was not aware of any US plan to contain the rising tensions.

"Some sort of CBMs (confidence building measures) between the militaries of Japan and China are welcomed," he said.

Hate to say I told you so - but I did tell you so.

[renmin]

Well you must know that China isnt a big fan of war. I doubt there will be war between the two countries. Though relationships are deteareating, it isnt serious enough to lead to war. As for the intrusions, perhaps its just to scare Japan off their pants once in a while, nothing serious. Sort of like those missile tests near taiwan, just to give them a scare.:D

[The_Zergling]

Um... but you don't see China threatening to bombard Japan with missiles all the time, do you?

Or angering the Japanese by barring them from entering the Olympics under the name that they want to use? Or censoring websites regarding an unbiased Japanese history?

[renmin]

Um... but you don't see China threatening to bombard Japan with missiles all the time, do you?

Or angering the Japanese by barring them from entering the Olympics under the name that they want to use? Or censoring websites regarding an unbiased Japanese history?Yes very true, Sino-Japan relations can improve dramaticaly if Japan apologizes for what they've done in WWII and rid those history crap. These are the main reasons most Chinese have a disliking towards the Japanese.

[The_Zergling]

Yes very true, Sino-Japan relations can improve dramaticaly if Japan apologizes for what they've done in WWII and rid those history crap. These are the main reasons most Chinese have a disliking towards the Japanese.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was China tends to threaten Taiwan with military, economic, and political force more than it threatens Japan.

And as far as I know Japan has apologized for WW2 multiple times before. Maybe the Chinese government didn't think it was enough (maybe the apologies will NEVER be enough) or perhaps they were apologized to but would rather let the people believe that the Japanese never apologized, therefore the people will concentrate anger on Japan as opposed to internal problems.

[KYli]

That's not what I meant. What I meant was China tends to threaten Taiwan with military, economic, and political force more than it threatens Japan.

And as far as I know Japan has apologized for WW2 multiple times before. Maybe the Chinese government didn't think it was enough (maybe the apologies will NEVER be enough) or perhaps they were apologized to but would rather let the people believe that the Japanese never apologized, therefore the people will concentrate anger on Japan as opposed to internal problems.

Hi The_Zergling,

As far as I concern Japan hasn't apologized for WW2, you just don't go to a shrine with war criminals if you truely regret what happen in WW2.

Well, China might threatens taiwan with missles, but the civil war has not been offically end. Technical speaking Taiwan and China still have not resolve what happen in 1949.

[The_Zergling]

Here's where one of the problems lie.

For one, most of the Japanese you will see on their streets were not soldiers at the time and most of them were born after the war, and those who were born during the war are civilians.

I don't need an apology from Americans, even though my great great grandfather was killed during an American air raid on Taiwan.

Most Japanese don't blame Truman, though he killed civilians with nukes in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What's important is to let people know the devastating nature of the war, and I believe many Japanese know that.

I take Koizumi's apologies at the face value : his apology was sincere and that it represented the hearts of most Japanese people. I think we need to do more to know what really happened in the war, to avoid things like that happening again. It is wrong to say something that really happened didn't happen, but it is also wrong to say something happened that didn't happen.

Open discussion is needed for this matter, unfortunately Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc are all affected by WW2 and probably have different versions of history.

What's also important to note is that today Yasukuni means PEACE SHRINE in modern Japanese consciousnessm to pay respects to soldiers who sacrificed their lives. Do people protest when government officials pay respect to American soldiers at the Vietnam war memorrial?

But when Japanese officials do that they are accused of militarism and are told to face up to history.

Here's some food for thought. How many countries has Japan invaded over the last 60 years? How many has China? It's all a matter of perspective, and from my POV I think that there's already enough of the apologizing and what should come next is a clear and true version of history taught to all students. That is what Japan should improve on, although the Chinese government uses it to promote nationalism, projecting hate outwards.

BTW Sampanviking apologies for taking this thread off-topic, but I just never really thought a military conflict between Japan and China is more likely than one between Taiwan and China.

*Post edited to address above edited post*

It's true that technically speaking Taiwan and China are in civil war. But the thing is the Taiwanese people don't have any desire to fight. Does that mean surrender? Maybe. Does that mean they simply have no desire to kill the Chinese? Perhaps. Does that mean both sides should avoid war and unification by coercion? Yes.

[renmin]

Here's where one of the problems lie.

For one, most of the Japanese you will see on their streets were not soldiers at the time and most of them were born after the war, and those who were born during the war are civilians.

I don't need an apology from Americans, even though my great great grandfather was killed during an American air raid on Taiwan.

Most Japanese don't blame Truman, though he killed civilians with nukes in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What's important is to let people know the devastating nature of the war, and I believe many Japanese know that.

I take Koizumi's apologies at the face value : his apology was sincere and that it represented the hearts of most Japanese people. I think we need to do more to know what really happened in the war, to avoid things like that happening again. It is wrong to say something that really happened didn't happen, but it is also wrong to say something happened that didn't happen.

Open discussion is needed for this matter, unfortunately Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc are all affected by WW2 and probably have different versions of history.

What's also important to note is that today Yasukuni means PEACE SHRINE in modern Japanese consciousnessm to pay respects to soldiers who sacrificed their lives. Do people protest when government officials pay respect to American soldiers at the Vietnam war memorrial?

But when Japanese officials do that they are accused of militarism and are told to face up to history.

Here's some food for thought. How many countries has Japan invaded over the last 60 years? How many has China? It's all a matter of perspective, and from my POV I think that there's already enough of the apologizing and what should come next is a clear and true version of history taught to all students. That is what Japan should improve on, although the Chinese government uses it to promote nationalism, projecting hate outwards.

BTW Sampanviking apologies for taking this thread off-topic, but I just never really thought a military conflict between Japan and China is more likely than one between Taiwan and China.

*Post edited to address above edited post*

It's true that technically speaking Taiwan and China are in civil war. But the thing is the Taiwanese people don't have any desire to fight. Does that mean surrender? Maybe. Does that mean they simply have no desire to kill the Chinese? Perhaps. Does that mean both sides should avoid war and unification by coercion? Yes.If this was the apology of most of the Japanese, that would be something I was dreaming would happen but sadly, this is probably from just one man. Tell, me than, why do many Japanese still mistreat us Chinese, and what about that history crap? What about the often insults I hear from japanese. There are many japanese that are good out there, but truth is, there are more that think their invasion in China in WWII was good, they still think they are liberating China!

As for the taiwan issue, China view is to avoid war with Taiwan. The civil war right now is just politically. Taiwan has two parties as we all know the ROC and the other I dont know the english name. Taiwan is currently run by the other. The two have very different views, ROC plans to retake China (virtually impossible) and the othe vows to seceed. Two opposite views.

[KYli]

Here's where one of the problems lie.

For one, most of the Japanese you will see on their streets were not soldiers at the time and most of them were born after the war, and those who were born during the war are civilians.

I don't need an apology from Americans, even though my great great grandfather was killed during an American air raid on Taiwan.

Most Japanese don't blame Truman, though he killed civilians with nukes in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What's important is to let people know the devastating nature of the war, and I believe many Japanese know that.

I take Koizumi's apologies at the face value : his apology was sincere and that it represented the hearts of most Japanese people. I think we need to do more to know what really happened in the war, to avoid things like that happening again. It is wrong to say something that really happened didn't happen, but it is also wrong to say something happened that didn't happen.

Open discussion is needed for this matter, unfortunately Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, etc are all affected by WW2 and probably have different versions of history.

What's also important to note is that today Yasukuni means PEACE SHRINE in modern Japanese consciousnessm to pay respects to soldiers who sacrificed their lives. Do people protest when government officials pay respect to American soldiers at the Vietnam war memorrial?

But when Japanese officials do that they are accused of militarism and are told to face up to history.

Here's some food for thought. How many countries has Japan invaded over the last 60 years? How many has China? It's all a matter of perspective, and from my POV I think that there's already enough of the apologizing and what should come next is a clear and true version of history taught to all students. That is what Japan should improve on, although the Chinese government uses it to promote nationalism, projecting hate outwards.

BTW Sampanviking apologies for taking this thread off-topic, but I just never really thought a military conflict between Japan and China is more likely than one between Taiwan and China.

*Post edited to address above edited post*

It's true that technically speaking Taiwan and China are in civil war. But the thing is the Taiwanese people don't have any desire to fight. Does that mean surrender? Maybe. Does that mean they simply have no desire to kill the Chinese? Perhaps. Does that mean both sides should avoid war and unification by coercion? Yes.

Political Dicussion is not allow in this forum, but I will reply some of the things you said.

I agreed most Japanese now had nothing to do with WWII, but it does not mean Japan could whitewash thier history.

I don't need an apology, eventhrough my great grandfather was killed by Japanese(He is a sailor). But China as a nation do need more meaningful statements of apology, not some minor words of regret.

Koizumi's apology is a joke, you just don't make an apology, and decide to go visited the shrine with tojo and 14 class A criminals days later.

Open Disscussion is good idea, but Koizumi should stop visit to Yasukuni shrine first.

Yasukuni could be anything but peace. The shrine have Tojo and 14 class A criminals, and a museum dedicate with lies, and false details of WWII information.
Just to give you some ideas.
1. Japan started the WWII because they wanted to save Asia nations from imperalism.
2. China started the Sino-Japanese War.
3. Rape of Nanking never happened.
4. China had committed genocide of Japanese in China.

There are nothing wrong to visit a memorial of soilders who fought for their countries. But it is not Ok to visit a shrine with War criminal who are equal with Nazi hitler.

China had conflict with many countries in last 60 years, but did nothing comparative with Japanese did in WWII. You just do not compare boundary war with th one hand and a pattern of near genocidal acts of national aggression by imperial Japan between 1910 and 1945. Maybe you should bring up Japan's colonialism in Korea dealing with wipe out Korea entire national identity. Invasion of Manchuria, Rape of Nanking and other cities. Atrocitiesin Vietnam, singapore, Malaysia, Philipines and Burma. There were over 20 million killed by Japanese.

China government might try to promote nationalism, but if Japan never try to whitewash their history. Japan had nothing to fear.

Well, I really do hope for peaceful solution of cross striat. Maybe years later peaceful unification could be happen, but now just let the status quo stay and make progress of three links.

Sorry mods for off topic.

[The_Zergling]

I concede the argument that Chinese are mistreated by Japanese because I am not Chinese myself so I have not experienced it, therefore I cannot confirm or negate your claim.

All I know for myself is that the Japanese I have met in all my life have been peaceful and nice people who have no desire to kill people or who look back on WW2 with pride and would think, "I would like to have been a part of that, it's a pity we lost."

As for my real life experience, my Japanese roommate's a real nice guy. I'm sorry if you have been insulted before, and I can't comment on it simply because it's never happened to me before. Something interesting to note is that apparently the Japanese don't view Taiwanese as "Chinese" otherwise we would have felt insulted too, though I haven't felt it.

Regarding nationalism, I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of your country, as long as it isn't because you're smearing another country.

Regarding the Taiwan issue...

In truth no party wants to retake China. The current ruling party is the DPP (Democratic Progressive Party) which is the party President Chen belongs to, and it is slanted towards Independence, whereas the main opposition party is the KMT (Kuomintang, essentially Party of the People) which slants towards unification.

However, the KMT had a tight dictatorship over Taiwan for most of Taiwan's history, the phrases "Take back China" were from the KMT government era, though they have changed that since they've lost power.

It appears I cross posted with the one above me... I'll add my two cents.

As you said, WW2 doesn't have much to do with the people of Japan in the present. I agree that they should be taught an unbiased version of history, that is something Japan must work on, but it is not something that the Chinese people should hape Japan as a whole for.

The shrine was not completely dedicated to war criminals obviously. There are war criminals in the Vietnam War memorial, if I go there to pay my respects to soldiers does that mean I also paid respects to the war criminals to? If you want to make me look bad yes you can say that but I think that's not the main point.

My point regarding conflicts Japan and China have been involved in vor the past 60 years is to say that Japan of today is nowhere like Japan of WW2, you simply cannot compare them anymore.

I did not mean to compare the wars, I just wanted to point out that today they are more peaceful than China has been for the past 60 years, that's all, and that we should focus on the present Japan and not the one that committed crimes in WW2. Yes, and I emphasize again that the textbook should more accurately reflect history, but that's another story.

Regarding Japan promoting nationalism... I see nothing wrong with that, as they aren't promoting militarism (as China is... somewhat). You don't see the pics of rows and rows and Japanese bombers or missiles aimed at another country do you? Much less displayed proudly.

My point isn't to say that China is bad and Japan is good, it is that Japan has changed profoundly since WW2 and people should notice that and take it all in before condemning blindly.



And since I think I'm the one who really brought this off-topic, I apologize once again because this seems to be a pretty sensitive topic that is definitely political and has no place in this forum... (Don't wanna get banned) so I'll try to make this my last post on this topic... anyone who wants to debate oh my views regarding Japan-China should PM me unless we want to make Gollevainen mad...

[ahho]

well i know most of my japanese friend are very friendly, but you have to know that a leader of the country should follow the rule. I think china and japan signed a treaty (forgot which one) that Japan PM will not visit the shrine. A appologies means nothing if you don't back it up and keep taunting your neighbour. Teaching your country of false history is not good either since the world knew the truth. The world knew the wrong doing, and some japanese that came out to learn the real history was shock to find the difference.

[KYli]

I concede the argument that Chinese are mistreated by Japanese because I am not Chinese myself so I have not experienced it, therefore I cannot confirm or negate your claim.

All I know for myself is that the Japanese I have met in all my life have been peaceful and nice people who have no desire to kill people or who look back on WW2 with pride and would think, "I would like to have been a part of that, it's a pity we lost."

As for my real life experience, my Japanese roommate's a real nice guy. I'm sorry if you have been insulted before, and I can't comment on it simply because it's never happened to me before. Something interesting to note is that apparently the Japanese don't view Taiwanese as "Chinese" otherwise we would have felt insulted too, though I haven't felt it.

Regarding nationalism, I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of your country, as long as it isn't because you're smearing another country.

Regarding the Taiwan issue...

In truth no party wants to retake China. The current ruling party is the DPP (Democratic Progressive Party) which is the party President Chen belongs to, and it is slanted towards Independence, whereas the main opposition party is the KMT (Kuomintang, essentially Party of the People) which slants towards unification.

However, the KMT had a tight dictatorship over Taiwan for most of Taiwan's history, the phrases "Take back China" were from the KMT government era, though they have changed that since they've lost power.

It appears I cross posted with the one above me... I'll add my two cents.

As you said, WW2 doesn't have much to do with the people of Japan in the present. I agree that they should be taught an unbiased version of history, that is something Japan must work on, but it is not something that the Chinese people should hape Japan as a whole for.

The shrine was not completely dedicated to war criminals obviously. There are war criminals in the Vietnam War memorial, if I go there to pay my respects to soldiers does that mean I also paid respects to the war criminals to? If you want to make me look bad yes you can say that but I think that's not the main point.

My point regarding conflicts Japan and China have been involved in vor the past 60 years is to say that Japan of today is nowhere like Japan of WW2, you simply cannot compare them anymore.

I did not mean to compare the wars, I just wanted to point out that today they are more peaceful than China has been for the past 60 years, that's all, and that we should focus on the present Japan and not the one that committed crimes in WW2. Yes, and I emphasize again that the textbook should more accurately reflect history, but that's another story.

Regarding Japan promoting nationalism... I see nothing wrong with that, as they aren't promoting militarism (as China is... somewhat). You don't see the pics of rows and rows and Japanese bombers or missiles aimed at another country do you? Much less displayed proudly.

My point isn't to say that China is bad and Japan is good, it is that Japan has changed profoundly since WW2 and people should notice that and take it all in before condemning blindly.



And since I think I'm the one who really brought this off-topic, I apologize once again because this seems to be a pretty sensitive topic that is definitely political and has no place in this forum... (Don't wanna get banned) so I'll try to make this my last post on this topic... anyone who wants to debate oh my views regarding Japan-China should PM me unless we want to make Gollevainen mad...

I will apolgized again for off topic, and I will make this one the last post on this topic. Forgive me :) .

I had been to a high school with many Japanese attended. I would have to agree most Japanese are very polite, but few of them with lack of knowledge and misunderstaning of history had shocked me.

The war criminals in the Shrine are not the same as in Vietnam War memorial. Tojo and 14 class A criminals are equal to Nazi Hitler. So if Germany did not allow to worship Hitler why should Japanese can. Please do not try to make comparison about Tojo with others war criminals. Tojo is as evil as Hitler, so no one should worship him as no one worship Hitler. Just take Tojo and 14 class A criminal out of the shrine, I am oK with other criminals.

Yes, Japan is very peaceful now, but do they have a choice. I am not focus on WWII, but I am not convice that they should be allow to whitewash their history. If what they did in WWII is justify, would you think that it could be easily for them to do it again giving the chance. As you said, everyone should not forget history, so nothing bad will happen again.

I would say this again do Japan have any chose to be not peaceful. US had full contol over their military. Regarding china in past 60 years, it had nothing to do with japan WWII, and I had already explained.

I agreed Japan had changed profoundly in last 60 years, but I also see the rise of rightwing politics and their intention of whitewash their history. If you ever visit a Japanese book store, you could find a lot of books with false and misleading information about WWII. If you ever visit some Japanese site, some kids there would make a lot crap statements. I see the good about Japan, but I also see the bad about Japan. I never blind with hate, because I always try to see both side of story before I make any condemning.

I had no problem for Japan to promote their nationalism, but I do have problem for them to whitewash their history.

[swimmerXC]

You all are welcome to talk about politics at Gobal Talk Forum (http://www.globaltalknetworks.com/forums/)... in fact I think Webby will allow anything in there

[sumdud]

OK, As request and approve by the starter and the admin, I have move this topic from GMP to the Professional forum and reopened this thread.

[SampanViking]

Thats better...

Now lets leave aside matters relating to shrines histories and apologies etc, and concentrate on the hear and now.

Allowing for a high degree of brinkmanship on both sides, it can be never be healthy for two strong militaries both with a grudge, to be brushing up against each other in this way. Mistakes and Misunderstandings are always possible.

I am interested from hearing from Service Professionals, especially those with Cold War Era service, as to how great they would measure the risk and how they would compare the nature and frequency of Sino-Japanese confrontations, to those of NATO and the Warsaw Pact in Soviet times.

I am also interested to hear what constitutes a "Confidence Building Measure" and how these can be implemented.

[akinkhoo]

this is more of a political issue, both countries requires an external threat. both countries are also contesting control over east china sea, which is suggested to by gas rich?

the apologies were never given with much meaning, japan has rarely done much to help clean up the bombs it left lying around other countries, honestly, japan is only giving words and doing little action to amend. it is more out of pride? for the amount of money japan used to help it's neighbours isn't stingy.

Confidence Building Measure cannot be implemented without backing by the political leaders. fairly hard for 2 nationalistic countries to agree on a platform.

[swimmerXC]

I think Webby messed up something when he re modeled the forum...
This forum is for VIP members... I can't even post in here before, only VIP members and super-mods...
Closing this thread until we resolve the problem...
Also other non-VIP members please don't post in the Professional Discussions