956em sovs

[MIGleader]

I read up on huitongs site that the new 956em sovs delivered to china feature an additional Band Stand radar installed on top of the helicopter hanger. The site says the radar may be used to guide chinese indegedous anti ship missles installed later(yj-83?). Any one know if china is even allowed to do this? and how?

On the other hand, the 138 destroyer seems like a geat ship. Based on the controls we see featured on the Talwars, we can the C4i on this ship shoudl be be very good. combined with a 240km moskit, this ship poses a threat to any japanese or taiwanese warship.

So any one have info regarding the second Band Stand?

[Gollevainen]

It's positive-E, not Band Stand, to guide the Kahstan CIWS system...as in all other ships which has Kahstan...

[MIGleader]

Im not talking about the kashtan radar. Im asking about the second bands stand, which appears to serve no apparent purpose on the destroyer at the moment. It must have been a signifigant part of the upgrade, as improved moskits and kashtans alone could not account for 400 million$.

[Gollevainen]

Nope, there isent any second Band Stand, Huitong has propaply misstook the the randome atop of the helo hanger as Band stand, as they both share a common radome

[fencer]

are type 052B and PROJECT 956E/EM equiped with the same version of the fregat radar (TOP PLATE) ???

what's the difference between FREGAT MAE 5 and FREGAT M2EM ??

thanks in advance.

[MIGleader]

The MAE 5 is the one on the 52b, right? i think that radar is designed to search the skys and guide the s-an-12 SAM. I dont know which kind of top plate the 956 uses, but it guides the sa-n-7 gadfly, the predecessor of the sa-n-12.

[Gauntlet]

I'm pretty sure the Sovremennys the PLAN operates doesnt use the aging Gadfly.
I'm sure all of them (the two E's and the coming two EM's) uses the Grizzly.

[MIGleader]

Im pretty sure the orginal sovs operated the s-an-7(check it on sinodefence), but i was hoping too that the em sovs had soemthing more advanced.

[Gauntlet]

Im pretty sure the orginal sovs operated the s-an-7(check it on sinodefence), but i was hoping too that the em sovs had soemthing more advanced.SinoDefence have a small confusing error on their Sovremenny section. They state that the two 956Es uses "SA-N-7 Grizzly" but there is no such thing! Its either SA-N-7 "Gadfly" or SA-N-12 "Grizzly.

The first batch (first 2) of the PLAN Sovremennys were the 956E, but were known in Russian service as the 956A. The 956A uses the Grizzly instead of the Gadfly, and therefore I belive the Chinese 956E and EM uses the Grizzly.

[MIGleader]

Thats interesting. Well in that case, im going to resort to the facts. Sinodefence claims the missle equiping the sovs has a range of 25km against aircraft and 15 agaist cruise missles, which are the specs of the sa-n-7. The s-an-12 has a 38km range against aircraft and a 20km range against cruise missles.

[adeptitus]

SinoDefence have a small confusing error on their Sovremenny section. They state that the two 956Es uses "SA-N-7 Grizzly" but there is no such thing! Its either SA-N-7 "Gadfly" or SA-N-12 "Grizzly.
The first batch (first 2) of the PLAN Sovremennys were the 956E, but were known in Russian service as the 956A. The 956A uses the Grizzly instead of the Gadfly, and therefore I belive the Chinese 956E and EM uses the Grizzly.

The 9K38 (SA-17/SA-N-12) is just an improved variant of 9K37 (SA-11/SA-N-7), given a different NATO name. Wikipedia lists the 9K38 as entering production in 1998, that might be too late for installation on the first batch PLAN Sovremenny ships (delivered in 1999).

There' s a whole lot of confusion between Russian missile names and NATO names. If you look at the Wiki entry for Delhi Destroyer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_15_Delhi_Class_Destroyers
2 x 3S-90 launchers fitted with Shtil surface-to-air missile system. Shtil comprises the 9M38M1 (NATO: SA-N-7, a navalised SA-11) missile and 24 missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine.

I think the 9M38M1 is used on navalized 9K38 (SA-17/SA-N-12/Grizzly) system and NOT 9K37 (SA-11/SA-N-7/Gadfly) system.

[Gauntlet]

I thought the Grizzly series were the 9M317 in Russian designation.

And as said, the 956E is the same as the 956A in Russian service, and it's therefore likely that it uses the Grizzly.

[adeptitus]

I thought the Grizzly series were the 9M317 in Russian designation.
And as said, the 956E is the same as the 956A in Russian service, and it's therefore likely that it uses the Grizzly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-17_Grizzly
The 9K38 "Buk-M1-2" (Russian Бук - beech, NATO reporting name SA-17 "Grizzly") is the continuation of the series of Russian surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) which started with the 3M9 "Kub" (SA-6 Gainful) and 9K37 "Buk" SA-11 Gadfly. It was completed in 1995 and introduced in 1998 and utilises at least two kinds of missiles, the 9M38M1 or later 9M317.

Janes article:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35024

JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - DECEMBER 01, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia moves to vertical-launch Shtil
Miroslav Gyürösi

Russia is offering a vertical-launch (VL) version of the Shtil-1 naval surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, writes Miroslav Gyürösi. The move from a system based on trainable launchers to one based on below-deck VL modules is similar to that taken by the US Navy in the mid-1980s when it switched from a Mk 26 trainable launcher to a VL system for the sixth and subsequent Ticonderoga-class Aegis cruisers.

Russian Public Joint Stock Company DNPP (Dolgoprudnenskoye naucsno - proizvodstvennoye predpriyatie), which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, developed the new 9M317ME SAM as an upgrade for the Shtil-1 naval air-defence system. Developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute Public Joint Stock Company, which is also a member of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, Shtil-1 is an improved version of the earlier Shtil system that is the export variant of the M-22 Uragan system fitted to the Project 956 (Sovremenny-class) destroyers.

The 9M38 missile was developed in the 1970s to be a common round for the land-based 9K37 Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') and naval Uragan/Shtil (SA-N-7 'Gadfly') system. It used a configuration similar to that of the US Standard Missile, with cruciform wings of long chord and short span, plus cruciform tail surfaces. In the land-based system, the 9M38 was fired from 9A38 and 9A310 self-propelled launch vehicles, while the naval Shtil and Shtil-1 systems used a trainable launcher fed by a below-deck loading system based on 12-cell drum magazines.

In the early 1990s, development started on an improved 9M317 missile able to replace the 9M38. This armed the Buk-M1-2 (SA-17 'Grizzly') system, which entered service with the Russian Army in 1998. The 9M317 was similar in configuration to the 9M38 but the cruciform wings were of much smaller chord and span.

The new 9M317ME missile is being marketed as a further development of the older 9M38 and 9M317 but the changes are on a scale that makes the round almost a new missile. It is designed to be fired from a cylindrical container/launcher mounted in a cell within the new Shtil-1 VL system. This arrangement provides a much higher rate of fire than the original trainable launcher and magazine system used in Shtil and Shtil-1. The latter could fire a missile every six seconds, but the 9M317ME-based system being offered for Sovremenny-class destroyers can fire rounds at one-to-two-second intervals.

The new launch technique has required drastic changes to the configuration of the missile. The long-chord wings have been replaced by vestigial fixed surfaces located not on the missile centrebody but near the rear of the airframe just ahead of the cruciform tail surfaces. These fixed surfaces may be intended to control the airflow passing the tail fins. The latter move to steer the missile - the same control scheme used on the 9M38 - but are folded to allow the round to be stored in the container/launcher.

The 9M317ME is 5.18 m long and 360 mm in diameter. The tail surfaces have a span of 820 mm when deployed.

After the round leaves the VL, a spring mechanism unfolds the tail surfaces and four gas-control vanes operating in the motor efflux turn the missile towards the required direction of flight. Once this turnover manoeuvre is completed, the gas-control vanes are no longer used. Subsequent flight control is via the moving tail surfaces.

A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor based on a more energetic charge than that used in the 9M38 provides the missile with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5 (1,550 m/s), a significant increase over the Mach 3.0 (1,230 m/s) of the older missile.

Guidance remains a combination of inertial and semi-active radar (SAR) homing. Inertial guidance is used in the early stages of flight and then the SAR seeker is activated to complete the interception. If the missile is being fired against long-range targets, it can receive mid-course updates while flying under inertial control. Launch weight of the 9M317ME is 581 kg. It is armed with a 62 kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode (active or semi-active) radar proximity fuze, or a contact fuze.

The range of the modernised Shtil-1 system is between 3.5-32 km, while the altitude coverage is from 5 m up to 15 km. These limits are set not by the performance of the missile but by the capabilities of the existing shipboard illuminating radars. This suggests further growth potential if the system is upgraded or if new radars are added.

The VL version of Shtil-1 is being offered for surface ships with displacement of more than 1,500 tonnes, providing protection against aircraft, helicopters, fast patrol boats and anti-ship missiles. It can also control the ship's guns. Publicly, no claims are being made for an anti-ballistic missile (ABM) capability, but the land-based 3M317 missile is reported to have successfully engaged Smerch artillery rockets and a ballistic missile during tests conducted in the mid-1990s. The VL system's ability to cope with tactical ballistic-missile threats may be limited by the performance of the existing shipboard radars.

The basic VL module contains 12 9M317ME missiles but, as with the unmodified Shtil and Shtil-1 systems, the upgrade is being offered in a series of optional configurations, which add greater numbers of MR-90 Orekh ('Front Dome') target-illumination radars and additional VL modules. All variants use target information from the ship's 3D surveillance radar.

Vertical-launch Shtil-1 configurations

Technical characteristic Option number
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Reaction time, [seconds] 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10 5 - 10
Firing interval [seconds] 2 - 3 2 - 3 2 - 3 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 - 2
Number of target channels 2 4 4 6 8 8 10 12
Magazine capacity [rounds] 12 24 36 48 - 72 72 108 108 - 144 144
Number of VL modules 1 2 3 4 - 6 6 9 9 - 12 12

[MIGleader]

Do the new sovs have the 9m38 than? i would expect air defence to be one of the plan's requirements for the ship.

[tphuang]

Do the new sovs have the 9m38 than? i would expect air defence to be one of the plan's requirements for the ship.
956EM and 052B should both be use 9M317E. This is according to Kanwa. Also of note, 956EM installed 6 orekh radar -> 12 concurrent engagements possible.

The range vs AShM is 8 to 12 KM (I'm guessing this is talking about the sea-skimming type) and the range vs plane flying below 1 KM is 15 to 18 KM.

[MIGleader]

Are you sure? I thought the systme could direct 12 missles, but only agianst six targets.

From what i know, the 9m38(which is not as advnaced as 9m317e) has a 38km range agianst aircraft, and a 20km rnage agianst ashm(perhaps not sea skimming ones). Isnt 18km agianst aircraft cutting the missle a bit short?

[tphuang]

yeah, the range does seem a little short. I think it's more of a radar limitation issue than the missile issue. Anyhow, the article is this one:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/693/200542894523473694zy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I think 12 and 6 is for rif-m. To be honest, that's kind of pathetic. I'm guessing 052C's radar should be able to track and engage a lot more.

[crobato]

Its still an SARH, it can only go as far as how many illuminators can support it. Mind you, it won't be able to handle six AshMs if they call come in one direction, as you can't point all your illuminators in that one direction. AEGIS gets away with time sharing, all the missiles being command guided at flight, and only use illumination on the missiles that reach terminal range. I don't know if Shtil-1 does this.

[MIGleader]

This is interesting. From a fischer article, it said the MAE-5(top plate) can detect+track a fighter size target out to 230km, and 50km for cruise missles . There are four such radars on the 52B, and six on the sovremenny.

Now, the actual Front Dome guidance radar has a range of only 30km(sucks). Assuming the 9m317E has some kind of terminal guidance on it, the stated range of 38km(of the 9m317e/9m38) on the 52b is not too unreasonable(the r-27 has a lock on range of 15km).

since the 956em sovs have many new sensors, or upgraded sensors, it would be unwise to make any judgements on it now.

[tphuang]

This is interesting. From a fischer article, it said the MAE-5(top plate) can detect+track a fighter size target out to 230km, and 50km for cruise missles . There are four such radars on the 52B, and six on the sovremenny.

Now, the actual Front Dome guidance radar has a range of only 30km(sucks). Assuming the 9m317E has some kind of terminal guidance on it, the stated range of 38km(of the 9m317e/9m38) on the 52b is not too unreasonable(the r-27 has a lock on range of 15km).

since the 956em sovs have many new sensors, or upgraded sensors, it would be unwise to make any judgements on it now.
Note, it did also mention in the article that the range vs planes over 1000 KM in altitude is 32KM. (still less than the 38KM mentionned in many other places)

Actually, most of the sensors on 956EM are upgraded ones from 956E. There are not too many new sensors. I suspect 052B probably uses similar sensors and sonars. I guess that's why kanwa calls it the Chinese Sov.

As for top plate, I think it's on sovs and the 052B/C. I don't think it's the same as Orekh (whose code is MR-90). Orekh is used to guide the missiles. So, it would have to be the "Front Dome" radar mentionned.

[MIGleader]

Are we assuming the 52b and the 956em share similar sensors? It seems reasonable as the first 52b was fitted with sensors around 2002, the same year the 956em sovs were ordered. They must both be ahead of the 956's ordered in 1996. so the front dome must have been improved with extneded range(the orginal had a 30km range i dont see the point of making an improved verison thats only going to have 32km range, 38km is more reasonable).

This might be a bit off topic, but does the 52c use the HT-233 3D C-band mono-pulse planar phased array radar to guide the hq-9?

[tphuang]

Are we assuming the 52b and the 956em share similar sensors? It seems reasonable as the first 52b was fitted with sensors around 2002, the same year the 956em sovs were ordered. They must both be ahead of the 956's ordered in 1996. so the front dome must have been improved with extneded range(the orginal had a 30km range i dont see the point of making an improved verison thats only going to have 32km range, 38km is more reasonable).

This might be a bit off topic, but does the 52c use the HT-233 3D C-band mono-pulse planar phased array radar to guide the hq-9?
I would think they share quite a bit, so yes.

Also, I don't think hq-9 naval version uses HT-233. Someone can correct me on this, but it seems the radar on 052C is more advanced. I would think it can track more than 100 air targets at one time.

[crobato]

There is only one Top Plate per ship, and it appears on the 956, 956EM, 051C and 052B destroyers. It does not appear on the 052C. The 051C does not use Shtil however, but I guess RIF-M still works with Top Plate to provide additional scanning for targets, especially in areas the Flap Lid cannot see from its point of view. The 052C does not need Top Plate (uses an indigenous radar instead is it Type 364 or 367?) as it uses indigenous SAM systems.

There are four Orekhs on the 052B and six on the 956/956EM. I thought there was Orekhs on the 051C but I may be mistaken them for something else.

If 054 FFG gets the VLS Shtil-1, expect Orekhs and Top Plate on them also.

[tphuang]

The Chinese claim that this is the second 956em (139) being built for China.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4791/139constructionta2.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2889/139construction2rr7.jpg
http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/7506/139construction3ta1.jpg
Since I'm not aware of any other order of sov, they are probably right.

[MIGleader]

Why is the ship numbered 698?

The ship looks like a 956em, it has the kashtan mounts and the postive-e radar dome at the back.

[swimmerXC]

Why is the ship numbered 698?

The ship looks like a 956em, it has the kashtan mounts and the postive-e radar dome at the back.

Old Russian boat that the Russian counldn't afford to keep anymore after the Cold War.. ex-Soviet Navy Vazhny and later renamed as Yekaterinbugr.. but what I don't get is PLAN said that they'll use Alexandr Nevsky and Yekaterinbugr in 1996... the hulls were only 2/3 done then why wait 10 years...

[gordonblade]

The Chinese claim that this is the second 956em (139)
Since I'm not aware of any other order of sov, they are probably right.

The last two 956em (138 & 139) is completely newly build and if the second 956em (139) is to be build in China, then might be wise to paint the number 139 straight away if they want rather than 698? Am I right?

[MIGleader]

Old Russian boat that the Russian counldn't afford to keep anymore after the Cold War.. ex-Soviet Navy Vazhny and later renamed as Yekaterinbugr.. but what I don't get is PLAN said that they'll use Alexandr Nevsky and Yekaterinbugr in 1996... the hulls were only 2/3 done then why wait 10 years...

I was under the impression that the 956em's would be newly built, rather than finished from semi-completed hulls like the first two. Guess not.

If it took russia 3-4 years to finish a 2/3 completed hull, i must say that is simply too slow. China finished both 52c's in 2 and a half years.

[tphuang]

Yeah, the naming of 698 is really confusing to me too. They didn't say anything on the original thread why it's named 698 either. I'm pretty sure the 956em are newly built.

[swimmerXC]

Yeah, the naming of 698 is really confusing to me too. They didn't say anything on the original thread why it's named 698 either. I'm pretty sure the 956em are newly built.

Yeah the new Sovs are new ships, then I guess that means Alexandr Nevsky and Yekaterinbugr (698) are 136 and 137 in the PLAN?

[tphuang]

alright, I got some closure on this matter. Apparently, Russians just have a habit of painting their own numbers on these ships before handing over to China.

For example, 138
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060720/3_44979_555aef239a0bb37.jpg
136
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060720/3_44979_6ffba08c9f7d3e1.jpg

[MIGleader]

Yeah the new Sovs are new ships, then I guess that means Alexandr Nevsky and Yekaterinbugr (698) are 136 and 137 in the PLAN?

Yup.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/sovremenny.asp

Under a September 1996 agreement Russia sold two uncompleted Project 956A Sovremenny class missile destroyers to China. They are hull #18, ex-Soviet Navy Vazhny and later renamed as Yekaterinbugr (698) by the Russian Navy, with two-thirds of building complete, and hull #19, ex-Russian Navy Alexandr Nevsky with only one-third complete. Both ships were laid down in the late 1980s by the North Shipyard in St. Petersburg and their construction was suspended in 1995 due to lack of funds.

[kooe]

alright, I got some closure on this matter. Apparently, Russians just have a habit of painting their own numbers on these ships before handing over to China.

For example, 138
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060720/3_44979_555aef239a0bb37.jpg
136
http://www.war-sky.com/forum/attachment/Day_060720/3_44979_6ffba08c9f7d3e1.jpg
wow, unique habit..... i didnt no that (before i tot all those sov were used.... lol)

[Gollevainen]

US navy had the habbit too when they sold some warships to abroad from their own naval building programs.....sometimes even when they funded some of their allyes warshisp build in those countryes, they recieved US hull numbers.

So it isent unique way att all...

[tphuang]

more pictures of 138.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5670/138aug11bc7.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/9476/138aug12on7.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/4305/138aug13hk5.jpg

[Sczepan]

according to CMF
http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/plaboard?cmd=get&cG=33735323136333&zu=33373532313633&v=2&gV=0&p=
4th Sovremenny will sail thru Taiwan Strait in a few days. PLAN will send DDG 112 & 113 to escort. USN claims that they been monitoring the situation.

[snake65]

Isn't 113 on a visit to US?

[Sea Dog]

according to CMF
http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/plaboard?cmd=get&cG=33735323136333&zu=33373532313633&v=2&gV=0&p=
4th Sovremenny will sail thru Taiwan Strait in a few days. PLAN will send DDG 112 & 113 to escort. USN claims that they been monitoring the situation.

Here's another link regarding the Sovremenny for China's Navy. Pretty much sums up the same stuff. But it also notes the boost to PLAN this ship will be.

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/China_takes_delivery_of_the_4th_Sov_08232006.html

Is this ship also heading for PLAN's East Sea Fleet?

[tphuang]

Here's another link regarding the Sovremenny for China's Navy. Pretty much sums up the same stuff. But it also notes the boost to PLAN this ship will be.

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/China_takes_delivery_of_the_4th_Sov_08232006.html

Is this ship also heading for PLAN's East Sea Fleet?
these stories sure boast Sovs.
to the best of my knowledge. It seems all the imported stuff are getting put in that fleet.

[Sea Dog]

these stories sure boast Sovs.
to the best of my knowledge. It seems all the imported stuff are getting put in that fleet.

Yeah, they sure do. The feeling seems to be that they provide a nice offensive addition to PLAN's fleet. And since they are going to the East Sea Fleet, it looks as though China wants to ensure it has a readily available offensive potential in the Taiwan Straits right now. I'm really surprised that all units of this class are put in the East Sea Fleet. I thought perhaps China would want to put at least a couple of these vessels in the South China Sea for a myriad of reasons. Though if I'm not mistaken, that's where the 052C are going.

[tphuang]

well, 139 has arrived in China I guess?
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6822/139sep28ko2.jpg

news article on this
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/9/28/worldupdates/2006-09-28T195914Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-269772-1&sec=Worldupdates

Russia hands over powerful warship to China

ST PETERSBURG, Russia (Reuters) - Russia handed over to China a destroyer equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry on Thursday, finalising a $1.5 billion deal analysts say boosts Beijing's clout in its stand-off with Taiwan.

"The handover act was signed today, and a Chinese flag was hoisted on the ship," a Russian defence industry source told Reuters, requesting anonymity.

The warship was the fourth Project 956E 'Sovremenny' (Modern) class destroyer built at the Northern Shipyard in Russia's second city St Petersburg and sold to China under a 2002 deal through Russia's state arms trader Rosoboronexport.

In the late 1990s China bought two such ships under a separate contract.

"Rosoboronexport is interested in further sales to China, and we are not talking only about ships," the defence industry source said. "The company is actively promoting its output in China. But there have been no new orders for ships."

Defence analysts say the destroyers boost China's military might in the Pacific region and against Taiwan, the island to which Nationalist forces fled when Communists took over the mainland in 1949 at the end of the Chinese civil war.

Beijing considers Taiwan a breakaway province and has vowed to attack it if it declares formal independence.

Washington is bound by law to defend Taiwan and analysts say a conflict in the Taiwan Strait could quickly become a battle between Chinese and U.S. forces.

"Concern about these ships in both Taipei and Washington is justified by the fact that Taiwan and perhaps even the U.S. Navy lacks an effective defence against the ship's SS-N-22 Sunburn (3M-80E Moskit) supersonic anti-ship missile," Washington-based think-tank the International Assessment and Strategy Center said on its Internet site www.strategycenter.net.

"This missile travels at about three times the speed of sound and can perform violent manoeuvres that can defeat most defences designed to ward off subsonic anti-ship missiles."

Apart from anti-aircraft missiles, the destroyer also carries a Ka-28 helicopter armed with rocket-propelled antisubmarine torpedoes.

In 2004-06 Russia built and sold to China six Kilo class diesel-electric submarines.

[challenge]

before the omplosion of USSR,the soviet navy has plan for next generation of destroyer ,the new destroyer ultilized stealth technology and new variant of sky watch AEGIS type radar.the plan was abandone.

[Gollevainen]

I think that pic is from russian, all the stuff in the harbour just seems so familiary slavic...definetly taken in St.Petersburg.

[crobato]

That probably was photo'ed when Sov 139 is still at the Russian harbor. And yet I wonder why the ship has 139 already painted in the side while 138 was painted with a Russian number until it reached China.

[FaMe]

@ crobato:
sorry to disappoint you here, but this is not correct. 138 proudly showed her final Chinese number when leaving the Baltic. It carried the Russian yard-number (and in fact a Russian name as well) only as long as it conducted her trials in the Baltic and was repainted shortly before leaving for home. Thus, the repainting of 139 (which before seems to have carried Russian yard number 698) should be indicative of impending departure.

[tphuang]

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9674/169vs138vg6.jpg
a comparison of 169 with 136

any thoughts, guys?

[IDonT]

Are those to scale?

[crobato]

If the Orekhs, Bandstand, Ka-28 helo, and Top Plate are the same size in both ships, then they're both to scale.

[Gollevainen]

According to this pic, both ships are same lenght, in fact the Sovremennyy was about 0.5 meters longer! This is interesting becouse for example the Weyer's Flottentaschenbocken say the 052B is 160 meters long (956EM is 156 meters long). Was the book wrong or is the real dimensions about these new chinese ships still just estimations and thus varies alot...

[crobato]

Hard to say. Can't vouch for the accuracy of these drawings or Weyer's books either.

[In4ser]

They appear roughly the same in this picture

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/852/planblackfleetpa0.jpg

[Jeff Head]

They appear roughly the same in this picture

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/852/planblackfleetpa0.jpgThat is a very nice picture. Is that pic from the joint PLAN, Russian exercises earlier this year? Those two vessels would form a fairly potent Surface Action Group (SAG), and the PLAN now has the capability of forming such a group at any time, particularly if you add one of the 52Cs or 51s in their for area AAW coverage.

[IDonT]

Does anybody know why PLAN ships are painted white and Russian Ships are painted black?

[eecsmaster]

one of the explainations given to me was that the darker Russia scheme better masks the ship from peeping eyes from above while the whiter scheme of the Chinese ship better masks it from other surface targets. Really just a matter of preference, and a trivial one in my opinion.

[maozedong]

do you mean light grey and dark grey?
the reason is simple,just like troop's uniform,deffent country use deffent collour.isn't it?
if you ask for sub, both country are black now,good for hidding under the water.

[IDonT]

do you mean light grey and dark grey?
the reason is simple,just like troop's uniform,deffent country use deffent collour.isn't it?
if you ask for sub, both country are black now,good for hidding under the water.

The USN uses, I think Navy Grey, apparently it helps in "comouflaging" the ship.

Also, does anybody know how well armored those Sunburn launchers are? I mean a well placed 5 inch gun looks like it would penetrate it setting catastrophic fires and explosions from the missiles fuel.

[maozedong]

but when I was child in china I saw all chinese war ship are navy grey,why?

[ying1978]

My guess is the dark grey painting scheme helps the ship to blend in with the sea, whereas the light grey scheme helps the ship to blend in with the horizon.

[Gollevainen]

Hard to say. Can't vouch for the accuracy of these drawings or Weyer's books either.

It's not only the drawings in the book, but it's data section states so also. I quess we just need to wait (like with so many other stuff too) and see...I personally think the 153-56 is more closer to thge truht than the Weyer's 160m.

[victorvold]

The new soveremnnyy class’s just this week left the Baltic’s approaches.
it has the same layout as 138. Not surprisingly its number is 139.
It has 2 new weapon systems on the super structure looking very much like a Shahine/Crotale /HQ7 clone.

[adeptitus]

Also, does anybody know how well armored those Sunburn launchers are? I mean a well placed 5 inch gun looks like it would penetrate it setting catastrophic fires and explosions from the missiles fuel.

That's an old Soviet-era design. If you look at the latest Russian ships, such as the Project 20380, the SSM and ASROC are stored in VLS:
http://www.warfare.ru/?lang=&catid=271&linkid=2179

You could add ballistic armor around the missile VLS, though it'd add weight.

[eecsmaster]

well armored enough to withstand blast and shrapnel, I'll tell you that. Proof against a tank gun? Probably not.

[jwangyue]

The USN uses, I think Navy Grey, apparently it helps in "comouflaging" the ship.

Also, does anybody know how well armored those Sunburn launchers are? I mean a well placed 5 inch gun looks like it would penetrate it setting catastrophic fires and explosions from the missiles fuel.

I don't think armoring the missile launcher would be that big a priority. After all Sunburn has a much longer range than a 5" shell. No captin would allow an eneny vessele to venture that close in a hostile situation. If anything is to hit the side of Sov, it would most likely be a SSM rather than a shell. In that case, it doesn't matter how much armor you put on those launchers.

[swimmerXC]

All of them 136,137,138,139 :china:
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9696/13661206exa2.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5669/137103006tb7.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3407/sov50806cof8.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3950/139111506fi7.jpg

[tphuang]

More from kanwa's recent edition on 956EM. The section on ESM/ECM is particularly interesting.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9895/32th8.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6001/33wf6.jpg
It mentions that 956EM is using TK25E version 7.2, which is the latest version (newer than 5 that is used on Talwar). It goes in details describing what seems to be one of the most advanced ESM systems developed by the Russians. And then, it also mentionned that China has not enquired about this, but rather is basing its systems off Israeli ones (which we already know). If anything, this shows to me that whatever is on 054 series and 052C should be superior to this.

[crobato]

It looks like the datalink bulb seen on the Y-8 High New types.

[tphuang]

The Sovs at full display in these Aug 1 photos. Again, i don't think I've seen these pictures before, but they might be old.

[tphuang]

pictures of 138 going out for a sail. Not much going on here, but we don't see too many pictures of sovs.

[tphuang]

138 and 525 from ESF visiting the Russian Navy's Pacific Ocean Fleet. You can even see a Russian Sov in one of the pictures I think. At least it looks like one to me.

[crobato]

There are three Russian ships there with masts that have Fregats. They could be Sovs and Udaloys. From what I understand, there is at least one Sov with the Pacific Fleet, and around 3 or 4 Udaloys.

[Gollevainen]

All the russian ships in the pics with Fregat's on their mainmasts are Udaloy class.

[crobato]

Yes, Was reviewing the pictures again, where is more details on the superstructures. The lack of Orekhs were a give away that the ships were Udaloys. The Udaloys don't use the Shtil missile system.

[Gollevainen]

Well Udaloy's are quite recognizable from it's uniq featuers as well as other soviet warships. Udaloy's have lattice masts where as Sovremenyy's have closed masts. Also Udaloys have clear front mast and main mast arragments where a Sovremenyys have only a frontmast.

[crobato]

Accordingly the orbat of the Russian Pacific Fleet consists of four Udaloys (one in repairs due to a fire last September); one Sovremenny, and one Slava called Varyag. The Slava recently made a trip to South Korea for some ceremonial event there that was also attended internationally by other ships, including China's own DDG 112 and FFG 527.

The active sub fleet seems quite impressive with four Delta IIIs, one of whom did the Bulova testing in the Sea of Okhost last September; three Akula Is and probably the scariest of all, three Oscar IIs. They are backed by 8 Kilos SSKs.

[tphuang]

Well Udaloy's are quite recognizable from it's uniq featuers as well as other soviet warships. Udaloy's have lattice masts where as Sovremenyy's have closed masts. Also Udaloys have clear front mast and main mast arragments where a Sovremenyys have only a frontmast.
yeah, now that you mention this, it should've been pretty obvious if i looked carefully at the picture.

They got some pictures showing the return of 112 and 527 from South Korea also.

[crobato]

Japanese Navy was tracking a formation of four Chinese warships.

http://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/03/39870.html

据日本共同社报道，日本防卫省20日宣布，日本海上自卫队的P—3C巡逻机19日傍晚在青森县龙飞崎海域的 津轻海峡观察到中国海军驱逐舰和护卫舰共计4艘。这4艘军舰在津轻海峡的公海区域从日本海驶向太平洋。防卫 省称，这是首次在该海域观察到中国海军的驱逐舰，“可能是一般训练，是否有其他目的尚不清楚” 。


　　据共同社报道，4艘军舰为现代级驱逐舰和江凯Ⅱ级护卫舰。后者是中国海军的新型军舰。共同社称，日本海 上自卫队17日下午在长崎县对马市海域也观测到江凯Ⅱ级护卫舰以及中国供给船。当时中国军舰在对马市北侧偏 西北约16公里的公海上航行。日本防卫省当时称，与日本海上自卫队2006年12月在冲绳本岛海域观察到的 护卫舰相比，中国军舰的导弹装载能力有所提高。


　　对于中国军舰的活动，日本一向异常关注。今年9月14日，日本曾宣称其海上自卫队军舰在日本领海内发现 “不明国籍潜艇 ”，有日本军事专家据此臆断该“潜艇”为“中国潜艇”。而在几天之后，《东京新闻》等日本媒体报道说，防卫 省和自卫队方面称，很可能是将鲸误认为潜艇。▲ （李羿辰）

According to Japan's Kyodo News reported that the Japanese ministry of defense announced on the 20th, Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C patrol aircraft in the evening on the 19th in Aomori Prefecture Kawasaki Longfei waters of the Tsugaru Strait to observe the Chinese navy frigates and destroyers, a total of 4. This 4 warships in the Tsugaru Strait on the high seas of the region from the Pacific towards the Sea of Japan. Ministry of defense said it would be the first time in the area observed the Chinese Navy destroyer, "may be training in general, not any other purpose is not clear."


According to Kyodo News reported that 4 of the modern warship-class destroyers and Ⅱ Jiang Kai-class frigates. The latter is a new type of Chinese naval warships. Kyodo said the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force 17 in the afternoon in the city of Nagasaki Prefecture to the sea horse is also observed Ⅱ Jiang Kai-class frigates as well as China's supply ship. At that time, Chinese warships in Malaysia on the north side of the city of NATO's 16 km west of navigation on the high seas. Japan's ministry of defense said at the time, with Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force in December 2006 in the waters of the main island of Okinawa observed frigate, the Chinese warships carrying missile capacity has increased.


================================================== ============


Someone should give them a clue that these four ships were the same ones headed to Vladivostok for a port visit. Yes, these are the same ships that were in the pictures above, Ships Sovremenny 138, Jiangkai 525 and 529 and possibly another ESF Jiangkai or Jiangwei. We didn't see 529 in the Vladivostok visit right, but its likely only because we don't have enough pictures as well as pictures of the fourth ship? That fourth ship might either be 526 or 530.

Addendum; Japanese pictures point to the fourth ship as replenishment vessel 886.

[crobato]

Nice shot to get at least three of the Sovs together.