China Flanker thread

[renmin]

About 76 Su-30s from russia are currently in active survice today with the PLAAF. The PRC purchased up to 200 of these strike fighters from russia. these aircraft are armed with 17,600 POUNDS ON 12 HARDPOINTS,30 MM CANNON, I/R AND RADAR HOMING AIR TO AIR MISSILES, R-73, R-77, PL-10, PL12,LASER GUIDED BOMBS, and AS-17 KRYPTON ANTI-RADAR MISSILE (KH-31). China also plans to equip their su-30s with Chinese made nuclear weapons (i dont see how) and C-801 anti-ship cruise missiles. The PLA SU-30 MKK is equipped with the Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radar which can range up to 90-110 km in counter-air mode, 70-80km against ground targets and 200-250 km against large ships. The MKK2 version is possibly equipped with the Phazotron Zhuk-M-S which has a 140km in counter-air mode, and 300km against large ships. The SU-30 can be equipped with the Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod that can control up to 10 fighters.The SU-30 is equipped with an extensive electronics suite including the OLS-30 IRST (Infrared Search and Track) system that has a 80-100km range.

(it will be nice too if someone can get some pictures in here, I dont know how)

[tphuang]

About 76 Su-30s from russia are currently in active survice today with the PLAAF. The PRC purchased up to 200 of these strike fighters from russia. these aircraft are armed with 17,600 POUNDS ON 12 HARDPOINTS,30 MM CANNON, I/R AND RADAR HOMING AIR TO AIR MISSILES, R-73, R-77, PL-10, PL12,LASER GUIDED BOMBS, and AS-17 KRYPTON ANTI-RADAR MISSILE (KH-31). China also plans to equip their su-30s with Chinese made nuclear weapons (i dont see how) and C-801 anti-ship cruise missiles. The PLA SU-30 MKK is equipped with the Tikhomirov NIIP N001VE radar which can range up to 90-110 km in counter-air mode, 70-80km against ground targets and 200-250 km against large ships. The MKK2 version is possibly equipped with the Phazotron Zhuk-M-S which has a 140km in counter-air mode, and 300km against large ships. The SU-30 can be equipped with the Kupol M400 side-looking radar pod that can control up to 10 fighters.The SU-30 is equipped with an extensive electronics suite including the OLS-30 IRST (Infrared Search and Track) system that has a 80-100km range.

(it will be nice too if someone can get some pictures in here, I dont know how)
The 24 su-30mk2s are also su-30s. Although China did loose one in an accident. I'm not sure if that ever got replaced.

The kupol m400 is only equipped on su-30mkk2.

Mk3 is the one that supposed uses Zhuk-MSE, but China is definitely not purchasing it. Not when the much superior su-35bm is offered. I've always pondered why China did not take the Pero antenna upgrade.

[MIGleader]

the su-30, really, is not an interesting fighter. what i am interested in is what china is going to replace it with. none of chinas new generation aircraft seem to be as capable as the mkk. i wonder why china did not buy more...100 is hardly enough. the mkk3 seemd liek a great fighter too, especially the panda radar. what more is tht china does not appear to be develloping a replacement at the moment either. i thin pondering the su-30 replacement would be a more interesting thread.

now, the mkk2 does not have the zhuk ms. it merely has a modified version of the mkks radar designed to fire the kh-31 and have SLAR fighter intercom system.

whats good is that the mkks and mkk2s can soon be arealy refueled!!! this allows them a range of 4000km with two refuels there, allowing the planes to hit guam.

[adeptitus]

IMO the Su-27 is a good platform. With modifications, it can make a decent strike aircraft (Su-30), carrier based interceptor (Su-33), or even fighter-bomber (Su-34). It has large internal fuel capacity and very good range too.

I think a lot of criticisms on its capability is due to inferior/downgraded export variants. I think everyone here knows Russia did not sell China its best radar or weapons suite.

Due to the arms embargo, PLAAF's import selection was very limited in the 1990's - prolly down to choosing between MiG-29, MiG-31, and Su-27. Between the 3, I think Su-27 was the best choice. The MiG-29 from that era had pretty short range and fared badly in air combat, and the MiG-31's sales record is very poor. The Su-27/Su-30 has been an export success and has many countries involved in upgrade programs.

If the PLAAF had favored domestic developments (J-10?), you could say the J-11 was a stop-gap measure, somewhat like ROCAF's acquisition of the IDF against PLAAF's J-8's.

[tphuang]

the su-30, really, is not an interesting fighter. what i am interested in is what china is going to replace it with. none of chinas new generation aircraft seem to be as capable as the mkk. i wonder why china did not buy more...100 is hardly enough. the mkk3 seemd liek a great fighter too, especially the panda radar. what more is tht china does not appear to be develloping a replacement at the moment either. i thin pondering the su-30 replacement would be a more interesting thread.

now, the mkk2 does not have the zhuk ms. it merely has a modified version of the mkks radar designed to fire the kh-31 and have SLAR fighter intercom system.

whats good is that the mkks and mkk2s can soon be arealy refueled!!! this allows them a range of 4000km with two refuels there, allowing the planes to hit guam.
Mkk3 isn't getting the panda radar. Panda is a radar upgrade that can be performed on N-001VEP. I do have to correct one more thing.
N-001VE is the radar used on J-11A that supports R-77 and multiple engagement. N-001VEP is the radar on mkk that added the ability to fire kh-31 and drop LGBs. N-001VEP modified is the one on mkk2 that added the ability to fire the anti-shipping missile. The reason that China is not geting mkk seems to be the development of indigenous programs. JH-7A can do a lot of things that mkk can do at a much cheaper price. J-10 is just a better air superiority fighter, especially with the 3D TVC engine. J-11's performance can probably match that of su-30mkk at a much lower cost.

I don't think the restriction on Chinese export from Russia is as heavy as some people think. It was quite tight in the beginning with the original flankers, but then it loosened up after 2002 (it seemed like). Especially now, the Russians seemed to be quite desperate that they are offering China pretty much everything that they have.

[Superior China]

Here are some pictures!

http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/flankers/4.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/MKKenginee.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/MKKenginec.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/Su-30MKKd.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/New.jpg

[Superior China]

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/Su-30MKKa.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3243/medium/crash.jpg

[crobato]

Personally I have problems about the alleged Su-30MK2 crash that happened in March 2004. First the accident is said to have occured in Changsha base in Guangzhou. That is not where the the Su-30MK2s are based that which is with the 4th Division PLANAF near the East China sea. Changsha is the location of the 18th Division's MKKs, and faces the South Seas area. I think the accident involved is that of an 18th Division MKK.

The simple reason why China has stopped buying MKKs and MK2s for now is that China feels they have already something better with J-11B, JH-7A and J-10A, along with a number of Russian flops that somewhat dimmed the Chinese interest, like the delay on the Kh-59MK and Zhuk MSE radar, problems on the engines, need for better support and service, lack of integration of domestic weapons, and lateness of accessories like targeting pods. Some of the functions of the MKK can also be done with the H-6H armed with YJ-63 missiles. Russia needs to step up what they plan to offer to China and I suspect the Su-35BN is one of them. Me personally I believe that China may be currently in a negotiation phase with new Su-30s, probably with the improved radar (Zhuk MSE or Panda) and AL-31FM-1 engines. However take this as coming out from my instincts, and not from an authoritative source.

[Sea Dog]

I don't think the restriction on Chinese export from Russia is as heavy as some people think. It was quite tight in the beginning with the original flankers, but then it loosened up after 2002 (it seemed like). Especially now, the Russians seemed to be quite desperate that they are offering China pretty much everything that they have.

I have to agree here with tphuang. There was a time that I thought the Russians would be unwilling to sell the Su-33 Naval Flanker to PLAN. But it looks like they are interested in selling that variant with all the goodies that go with it.

I think China's development of JH-7 will prove to be an overall replacement of Su-30, that is if the design proves to be reliable and can fulfill it's missions properly.

[renmin]

Iv never heard of such a crash. can somebody fill me in? What caused it? any casualties?

[Wingman]

It was reported by Kanwa, some Taiwanese news company. There was even a picture to go with that but I can't find it again. It's a picture of an Su-30MKK wreckage among some bushes and some Chinese officials examining it. More info (or rumours) here
http://*********************.com/index.php?showtopic=40847

Although the pic is quite convincing, Kanwa is usually the only news agency that reports certain news items, no one else, so their credibility isn't that great. Some speculate they even get their info from Chinese military defence forums

[MIGleader]

I have to agree here with tphuang. There was a time that I thought the Russians would be unwilling to sell the Su-33 Naval Flanker to PLAN. But it looks like they are interested in selling that variant with all the goodies that go with it.

I think China's development of JH-7 will prove to be an overall replacement of Su-30, that is if the design proves to be reliable and can fulfill it's missions properly.

it's because sukhoi was desperate to keep its su-33 line open. with no other customers following Amiral kutznesov, they knew it was only a matter of time before the highly potent aircraft fell victim to financial problems. so they decided to make an improved varient and market it with vigor. perhaps sukhoi hopes that china will like the side by side seatin format of the su-33kub, tempting su-32 or 34 purchases in the future.

jh-7 might replace mkk in the ground attack role, but not the air superiority mode. the mkks, after all, are still the most capable fighters in the plaaf as well. perhaps china does not see a need for such a fighter, or j-xx is supposed to fufill that role(although i doubt it could have extensive a2g abilities if it has an internal weapons bay)

[crobato]

It was reported by Kanwa, some Taiwanese news company. There was even a picture to go with that but I can't find it again. It's a picture of an Su-30MKK wreckage among some bushes and some Chinese officials examining it. More info (or rumours) here
http://*********************.com/index.php?showtopic=40847


I've seen so called Su-27/30 crashes but it turns out these are parts of J-8II and J-7 wreckage.

And KANWA seems a bit off. The first time heard of this rumor was not in the fall of 2004, but in the spring of 2004 to be more precise around March. There is a record of forum postings in the Keymags AFM forum to prove this. If the accident only happened around the fall---months later after I first heard of this alleged rumor---then that is rumor mongering BS.

The forum posting alleges that the accident happened in the Changsha base, which is not where the MK2s went but where the 18th Division MKKs are stationed. Unless said MK2 is not the PLANAF MK2s but an 18th Division MKK converted to the MK2 standard by electronics upgrades.

March is usually the time for accidents to occur because that month usually have exercises going on. A March accident usually is connected with exercises and the MK2 then would still be in their first deliveries and would not have participated in such.

[Wingman]

Oh, I think I found it again. Here.
http://secretchina.com/news/gb/articles/5/1/9/80418p.html

The pic is here. There's no way to tell if it's a Su-27, Su-30MKK or MK2...
http://secretchina.com/news/news_images/2005-1-9-su1.jpg


It crashed right at the airport...

[MIGleader]

its an mkk. you can tell from the humped back.

wow, that looks like a really nasty crash, but not something that can be repaired using refabricated old parts and some new parts. interesting thing is that the aircraft is in the russian air force paint scheme, not the plaaf one. theres no telling if this is actually a chiense crash.

[Wingman]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

I'm pretty sure this whole news about the PLAAF Su-30MK2 crash is a total hoax.

Look here. This is the Su-30 that crashed at the 1999 Paris Air Show
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/msnbc001.htm

Take a look closely at the two wreckages. They look exactly alike!!!
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/su30crash2.jpg


And MiGLeader you're right, it's also in Russian paint scheme.

[Red not Dead]

russia, russia, russia, what kind of junk are you producing?


The crash has happenned in France. In 99 during an Airshow because the US delegation felt right to send their demonstrator in the runway while the russians were still closing in.

Feel free to look after it.

[drunkhomer]

those dont look like chinese firefighters as well

[renmin]

its an mkk. you can tell from the humped back.

wow, that looks like a really nasty crash, but not something that can be repaired using refabricated old parts and some new parts. interesting thing is that the aircraft is in the russian air force paint scheme, not the plaaf one. theres no telling if this is actually a chiense crash.Yes a nasty crash indeed but that is no Chinese fighter. That su-30 wheres the colors of russian fighters (trust me, I know). Almost all J-11 fighters of the PLAAF where the same color. a blueish gray. those dont look like Chinese fire trucks either. what I dont get is why China would claim for something like a plane crash and make themselves look bad.

[Wingman]

what I dont get is why China would claim for something like a plane crash and make themselves look bad.
It wasn't the PRC that claimed this crash, it was Kanwa which is a Taiwanese news agency (and somewhat anti-PRC I believe) that claimed this. And then some other internet-based news sites copied Kanwa's news and reported the same thing.

Anyway I'm 99% sure this photo is from the 1999 Paris Air Show accident and not a Chinese Su-30MK2. Also the accident at the Paris Air Show happened due to pilot error, it was not due to faulty equipment.

[renmin]

It wasn't the PRC that claimed this crash, it was Kanwa which is a Taiwanese news agency (and somewhat anti-PRC I believe) that claimed this. And then some other internet-based news sites copied Kanwa's news and reported the same thing.

Anyway I'm 99% sure this photo is from the 1999 Paris Air Show accident and not a Chinese Su-30MK2. Also the accident at the Paris Air Show happened due to pilot error, it was not due to faulty equipment.Well, works for me. Its makes quite much sense that the ROC would come up with this junk to insult china. sadly, only people like us who know the style of fighter jets can see through this hoax. i believe that is the paris crash. the Su-30 wheres the same paint sheme and looks severealy banned up.

[MIGleader]

interesting. sinodefence claims at least 5 mkks have crashed due to their extensive use in exercises. a lack of photos, however, makes this hard to prove.

this crash must not be good for marketing, but china and india both struck su-30 deals anyways.

[renmin]

OK. Guys, lets get back to Su-30 info instead of crashes. What kind of western aircraft do you think it is compatable with? Can it match up against a F-15? Can the PRC really arm their Su-30s with nuclear weapons?

[MIGleader]

the perfect western match for the su-30 is the f-15e, which has very simialr performance and the same mission. the su-30 is probably better than the f-15at dogfighting though

[tphuang]

the perfect western match for the su-30 is the f-15e, which has very simialr performance and the same mission. the su-30 is probably better than the f-15at dogfighting though
I would compare it to f-15E, but it would loose out in BVR due to F-15E's superior avionics. Compared to some of the later models of F-15 like F-15K and F-15SG, it probably doesn't have the payload, operating range, weapon arsenal (like the Slammer), all weather capability, precision strike of F-15.

[Wingman]

But one advantage it does have over the F-15 in BVR is the higher range of the R-77. If datalinked with AWACS it should be ok too. Unfortunately China's AWACS isn't that good right now

[MIGleader]

I would compare it to f-15E, but it would loose out in BVR due to F-15E's superior avionics. Compared to some of the later models of F-15 like F-15K and F-15SG, it probably doesn't have the payload, operating range, weapon arsenal (like the Slammer), all weather capability, precision strike of F-15.

yeah, the su-30 does have a rather limited ground attack ability, despite heavy emphasis on it by the chinese side. The kh-56, kh-29, and kab-500 offer only limited choices for attack. the worst part is that it cant fire any chinese attack munition. its pretty clear why the plaaf quickly lost interest in ordering more su-30s.

[renmin]

yeah, the su-30 does have a rather limited ground attack ability, despite heavy emphasis on it by the chinese side. The kh-56, kh-29, and kab-500 offer only limited choices for attack. the worst part is that it cant fire any chinese attack munition. its pretty clear why the plaaf quickly lost interest in ordering more su-30s.I thought the su-30 can carry cruise missiles can it not? still it lacks the ability to carry bombs like how a f-15 can be loaded with ground munitions. perhaps the su-34 might become a more seficiant plane for ground attack for the PLA if they ever get their hands on any. in other words, the su-30 might be one of the best when it comes to air combat.

[tphuang]

But one advantage it does have over the F-15 in BVR is the higher range of the R-77. If datalinked with AWACS it should be ok too. Unfortunately China's AWACS isn't that good right now
lol, what gives you the impression that R-77 has better range?

Do you realize the latest AMRAAM has a no escape zone of like 50 KM? R-77's real range is probably that much. In general, I would say R-77 is probably at AIM-120A, the later versions of it might be at AIM-120B level.

I think su-30mkk2 can carry kh-59mk, so that's an anti-ship cruise missile. The main problem is that mkk cannot carry any Chinese munition. That is a huge problem considering that missile is probably China's most advanced field right now.

[MIGleader]

well, most people beilive the real range of the r-77 to be around 70-80km.
another thing is that the mkks can not fire the sd-10(sucks, coz it means china will have to buy more outdated russian gear)

[Wingman]

lol, what gives you the impression that R-77 has better range?

Do you realize the latest AMRAAM has a no escape zone of like 50 KM? R-77's real range is probably that much. In general, I would say R-77 is probably at AIM-120A, the later versions of it might be at AIM-120B level.

Never mind those numbers, they don't mean a thing. Range depends a lot on launch conditions. One thing is for sure though, the R-77 is bigger and heavier than AMRAAM, so it should either carry more propellant, or a more powerful booster.

[tphuang]

Never mind those numbers, they don't mean a thing. Range depends a lot on launch conditions. One thing is for sure though, the R-77 is bigger and heavier than AMRAAM, so it should either carry more propellant, or a more powerful booster.
R-77 is much better than R-27 and had some really fancy published numbers. That's where all the hype comes from. Just because it is bigger, that does not make it better. They use different types of motor. The American often make more with less. You should read up on that interview with the SD-10 developer on how the Russian measured that 100 KM range of theirs. In a realistic situation vs fighter jet, 50 KM is about the range of R-77. With Russian seeker not being as good as American one (only 15 KM in range), you got a huge problem here.

[crobato]

lol, what gives you the impression that R-77 has better range?

Do you realize the latest AMRAAM has a no escape zone of like 50 KM? R-77's real range is probably that much. In general, I would say R-77 is probably at AIM-120A, the later versions of it might be at AIM-120B level.

I think su-30mkk2 can carry kh-59mk, so that's an anti-ship cruise missile. The main problem is that mkk cannot carry any Chinese munition. That is a huge problem considering that missile is probably China's most advanced field right now.


I kind of doubt that the AMRAAM has a no escape zone of 50km.

The Su-30MKK can carry the Kh-59ME, which is a stand off weapon against precise targets.

The Strike Eagles on the other hand, can carry all sorts of GPS guided munitions, and this is something both the Russians and the Chinese have yet to match.

[crobato]

If you want to talk about a realistic situation, most missiles, including those overhyped BVR ones, get most of their kills under 20km. Does not matter how good your seeker or booster is, you fire at range, you give time for your target to evade or perform countermeasures. Not to mention do ECM. RCS reduction measures also cut the detection time and the seeker range.

And do not underestimate SARH missiles like the AIM-7 Sparrow and the R-27 Alamo. Compared to the R-77, the R-27 actually has better terminal performace, meaning more speed from its booster. The seeker also has more range (possibly up to 25km) due to its size. At close ranges, when fighters are beaming their targets with their radars, there is a lot of radar reflection and the locks are much faster on the SARH missiles, so they can be fired off the rails so quickly while the ARH missile has to "seek" while in the rails.

[MIGleader]

yeah, i always wondered why the mkks did not have a FLIR pod. the OEPS-31E-MK infrared seeker can act as one, but that requires almost being directly above the target(eliminating the whole point of precision bombing). the mkk is reportedly able to fire the kab-1500 laser guided varient, but i have yet to see an mkk actually feild one, leading me to conclude china did not buy any.

[renmin]

i wondered, would China be interested to purchase the Su-30MK3 from Russia? It does feature a more advanced radar than the previous models.

[MIGleader]

I think the mk3 got called of a long time ago. its under development radar, the phazotron panda, had a proposed range of 190 km agaisnt 5m^2 target,s and 300 km on ships, fairly impressive.

[tphuang]

yeah, i always wondered why the mkks did not have a FLIR pod. the OEPS-31E-MK infrared seeker can act as one, but that requires almost being directly above the target(eliminating the whole point of precision bombing). the mkk is reportedly able to fire the kab-1500 laser guided varient, but i have yet to see an mkk actually feild one, leading me to conclude china did not buy any.
I remember reading about the 50 KM NEZ for AIM-120C in that interview with SD-10 developer or something like that.

I don't think China would purchase anymore flankers on the mk3 level, because SAC should be able to develop something of the similar level. I'm sure phased array radar should be available right now, there would be no point for China to purchase more multiroled fighters with slotted array radar. No matter how you put it, an electronically scanned radar should be capable of more modes than a mechanically scanned radar --> better engagement of air, sea and land object at the same time.

[tphuang]

this article was originally by Piotr Butowski in the first edition of air international in 2004, it got translated to Chinese. Sort of on su-27sm and other modernization plans for the flanker. It's called "new life for flanker"

中国简化型苏27与俄军苏27的差别

众所周知，我国引进的Su-27SK是俄罗斯空军所用的Su-27S的简化版，但简化在哪里呢？2004年第一期英国Air International杂志发表了一篇Piotr Butowski撰写的题为《侧卫的新生》的文章，详细介绍了俄罗斯空军Su-27机队的升级计划，其中有相当篇幅披露了中国引进的Su-27SK、Su-30MKK的细节。现在将此文全文译出，供参考。记得有外刊评论，现时航展上关于Su-27的许多参数都是不可靠，甚至矛盾的。看过此文后确有同感。原来那些有关Su-35/37天花乱醉的纸面性能，很多是要经历不同阶段升级后才能达到的。翻译此文的目的，是供广大军迷正确、全面 地认识Su-27的潜力。鉴于水平有限，文中某些术语可能翻译不当，敬请谅解 .
侧卫的新生（1）

　　作为俄罗斯空军持续现代化计划的一部分，苏霍伊设计局选择了KnAAPO（阿穆尔共青城飞机生产联合体 ）作为其苏-27侧卫战斗机一系列升级计划的主承包商。这种被称为Su-27SM的升级型号在很大程度上是基于中国订购的双座Su-30MKK多用途战斗机的基础上的（76架Su-30MKK已于2000至2003年间交付中国）。

　　编号38-02，“56”的Su-27SM的原形机本是一架近期生产型飞机，隶属第60战斗机团，驻扎在靠近共青城的Dzemgi，于200 2年12月27日在当地进行了首飞。根据合同，KnAAPO将对更多的飞机进行现代化改装，按计划首批接受 改装的4架飞机中的3架将于2003年年底前完成改装。

　　就在首架Su-27SM试飞后不久，一种出口升级演示机的细节被披露了出来。该机使用原Su-27SK 40-42号的机体，序列号36911040102，建造于1998年。该机侧面编号“305”，本来计划于6月 进行的2003年巴黎航展上露面，然而该计划在航展开幕前几天取消，原因是担心飞机被瑞士贸易公司Noga 由于债务纠纷而采取强行法律行动而扣押。随后，Su-27SM于8月在莫斯科举行的MAKS2003国际航空航天展上首次亮相。

　　航电设备

　　在众多的升级改进中有一项是由Ramenskoye PKB负责对座仓进行了彻底的重新设计，安装了3个液晶显示器？？两个MFI-9型 7英寸*5英寸显示器以及一个夹在在两者之间的、较小的显示器。与Su-30MKK的前座仓不同，Su-27SM保留的模拟式仪表仅仅是作为备用的，而前者仍将其作为主要飞行仪表使用。Su-27SM的其他改进包括一个新的Elektroavtomatika SILS-27平显，在导航组件中新增了A737全球定位系统以及一套新的通信设备。

　　在实际运作上，最有潜力的改进将是对雷达系统的改进。代号“熊猫计划”，Aerokosmichesk oye Oborudowaniye 和它的下属研究院Tikhomirov NIIP正在改进Su-27的N001雷达。这项计划被分为两部分：改进它的空对空性能以及加强其对目标的探测、跟踪及打击能力。 最终的结果是客户将会有一系列雷达型号可供选择，以适应各自不同的需求、进度表和经济承受能力 。

　　被称为NOO1V的完全升级型号是供俄罗斯空军使用的，具有使用R-77M主动中距弹同时与2个目标接战的能力。雷达的运算能力显著提高从而使探测距离从现在的43-54海里（80-100公里）提高到73-81海里（135-150公里）。它还将提供目标识别、在集群目标中锁定单一目标以及探测诸如直升机一类的慢速飞行目标的能力 。使用空对地模式，N001V具有地图测绘和动目标鉴别指示的功能。跟踪距离测试按计划将于2003年年底 完成。

　　由于雷达新的Ts100计算机系统具有共享高速数据传输线路，并使用C和C++高级语言编程，因此仅需 3-4架次的测试飞行进行试验。考虑到传统上飞行测试占用了高达80%的研发经费，用于验证N001V新功能的 少数几次试飞无疑节省了大量资金。

　　并非所有N001V的功能会被用到出口型飞机上。例如，第一批出口中国的N001VE雷达 （用于Su-30MKK）仅仅整合了R-77导弹的出口型号。然而，第二批出口雷达N001VEP将具备N001V的大部分改进功能。这批雷达由中 国海军于2003年订购，将用于最新一批的28架Su-30MK2型战斗机上。然而，这批雷达仍将是N001V的简化型，与新计算机有关的一些最敏感的技术，诸如 增强跟踪距离和多目标分辨功能将被省略。

　　雷达性能比较
　　型号 N001 N001VEP
　　空对空模式
　　同时跟踪目标数 10 10
　　同时接战目标数 1 2 
　　对战斗机大小目标的迎头搜索距离 80-100公里 （90-110公里）
　　（RCS 3m2）
　　空对地模式
　　对航母搜索距离（RCS 50000m2） / 200-250公里
　　对驱逐舰搜索距离（RCS 1000m2） / 150-200公里
　　对快艇搜索距离（RCS 300m2） / 70公里
　　对铁路桥搜索距离（RCS 1000m2） / 150-200公里
　　对集群坦克搜索距离（RCS 30m2） / 70-80公里
　　* 俄罗斯空军N001V型的此项参数为135-150公里
　　在自卫电子设备方面，出口型飞机将装备L150 Pastel雷达导引警告接受机（RHAW）以代替现有的L006 Beryoza雷达警告接受机（RWR），原有的L203/204 Gardenia主动干扰机也将被L005 Sorbtsiya（索伯契亚）干扰机取代。俄罗斯空军的升级飞机将装备由Kaluzhskiy Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Radio-Tekhnicheskiy Institut （KNIRTI）研制的L175 Khibiny主动电子干扰系统，该系统将取代现有的Sorbtsiya（索伯契亚）系统。Su-27SM的其他自卫系统还包括一个新的Khibiny RWR雷达警告接受机和假目标发射器。在MAKS2003航展上，KNIRITY研究院展示了一个S AP-518主动电子干扰吊仓的模型（据信是Khibiny系统的一个组件），供Su-27的翼尖挂架使用。在MAKS2003上还展示了一个SAP-14护航干扰吊仓，现在Su-27的这一功能是由L001 Smalta护航干扰机担当的。
电子战系统性能 

　　自卫干扰机
　　Su-27S（俄罗斯空军）:
　　Katun综合系统包括： CKBA/Omsk L006 Beryoza雷达告警接受机，KNIRITI/Zhukov L005
　　Sorbtsiya主动干扰机
　　Su-27SK（出口型）: L006 Beryoza雷达告警接受机，L203/L204 Gardenia 干扰机
　　Su-27SM（俄罗斯空军）:
　　KNIRITI/Zhukov L175 Khibiny综合系统包括：CKBA/Omsk L150 Pastel雷达导引警告接受机，SAP-518（？）干扰机

　　Su-27SM（出口型）: L150 Pastel雷达导引警告接受机，L005 pm
　　Sorbtsiya主动干扰机
　　护航干扰机

　　Su-27S（俄罗斯空军） Su-27SK（出口型） Su-27SM（俄罗斯空军） Su-27SM（出口型）
　　Yatagan综合系统以及 无 KNIRITI/Zhukov 未知 ?
　　KNIRITI/Zhukov SAP-14单元化干扰机
　　L001 Smalta干扰机
　　Pero系统

　　对N001V雷达的进一步发展按计划将在今年实施，力争在每个俄罗斯空军的飞行中队至少配备1到2架飞 机。新雷达将安装称为Pero（羽毛）的相控阵天线，具有同时跟踪15个目标、同时接战8个目标的能力，并 将显著提高对目标的跟踪距离。由于配备了TKS-2（R098）加密数据链，多达16架的Su-27战斗机能被整合成一个集群使用。Pero雷达能使长机在较远的距离上跟踪较多的目标，并把目标信息传递 给其他战斗机，从而使它们能隐蔽接敌。

　　Pero天线由Tikhomirov NIIP设计局和Ryazan GRPZ设计和生产，具有与现有机电卡塞格伦型N001-01天线相同的机电界面和电力消耗，但是仅重85公斤，节省了30公斤重量。根据NIIP的数据，Pero 天线的价格与现有天线相当，但具备大幅提高的性能。

　　由于更换了雷达天线，现有Ts100处理器及其相关系统将被用于新雷达，此举可节省120公斤的重量。 然而，将相关软件编译成C++代码的过程需要大约12个月，所以熊猫计划的终极雷达型号将不会早于2005 年底出现。

　　新增武器

　　在Su-27SM上引入N001V/VEP雷达和光电跟踪系统将赋予俄罗斯空军现役Su-27机队不具备的空对地精确打击能力。尤其是Su-27将能使用Kh-31A超音速反舰导弹和远程（130公里）的Kh-35U亚音速反舰导弹。新雷达还能从动于诸如Kh-29T、Kh-29TE、KAB-500Kr、KAB-1500Kr之类的电视制导导弹和电视制导炸弹的寻的头，并能保证在夜间和恶劣天气下的精确轰炸。

　　此外，Su-27SM还能携带电视导引的Kh-59M导弹及其增程型号--285公里射程、主动雷达导引的Kh-59MK型别。新增的L150 Pastel电子侦察系统和Kh-31P反辐射导弹配合，将赋予Su-27SM战斗机全新的SEAD（防空火力压制）能力。

　　作为升级计划的一部分，机体结构将得到加强从而使最大起飞重量增加到30450公斤。（俄罗斯空军现役 Su-27战斗机的最大起飞重量是28300公斤，但1992年后制造的出口型号的此项数据已经达到了30450 公斤）由于俄罗斯空军没有相应要求，空中受油能力将仅供出口型号选用。

　　Su-27SM的飞行控制系统也有所变化。现役飞机仅在纵向通道（俯仰通道）上具有模拟式电传控制，其他通道仍使 用机械控制系统。Su-27将在所有轴线上采用全数字电传控制，从而使飞机具有无忧机动能力，避免因超过机体结构和控制系统极限而 引发的风险。 &{p呑醕h$
篊T赼柦T=
　　更强动力
　　在经过了20余年的序列生产之后（期间没有经历大的改进），Su-27的AL-31F涡扇发动机终于有了现代化改进计划。该计划涉及两家公司：留里卡-土星设计局（NPO土星集团的子公司）和MMPP Salut生产工厂自己的设计局KBPR。

　　在两个计划中，Salut在MAKS 2003航展上展示了部分细节，因此计划的目标相对明确。该现代化改进计划被分为3个阶段，最初分别被命名 为AL-31F-M1、M2和M3。后来为避免侵犯NPO土星集团的知识产权，Salut删去了“AL-31”前缀。

　　接受了第一阶段升级的发动机在Su-27 37-11“595”号飞机上进行了飞行测试。首飞时间是2003年1月25日，此后又进行了20次试飞，用于研 究在飞行包线内某些关键点处的发动机稳定性。第一阶段的升级项目包括安装一个新的增大直径KN D-924-4型低压压气机（KND为低压压气机的俄文缩写，924为直径尺寸，毫米，4为4级）和SAU-235数字式控制系统。

　　Sault宣称新控制系统的可靠性是旧系统的3倍而重量却节省了40公斤。新压气机使最大非加力推力由 75.21千牛提高到了81.49千牛，最大加力推力则由122.58千牛提高到了129.80千牛。然而 发动机的重量也由1547公斤微增至1557公斤。

　　在第二阶段现代化改进期间，新的涡轮盘冷却系统将被采用，因此能把加力推力进一步提高到138.26千 牛。在今年将实施的第三阶段，将采用一个全新的、具有3级宽弦叶片的风扇（低压压气机 ）。这种名为KND-924-3的风扇采用整体式叶片盘技术，与老的4级风扇相比具有更大的增压比和更高的效率。一个KND-924-3型风扇已于MAKS 2003航展上作了首次公开展示。如果将其运用到现有发动机上，将能把加力推力提高到143.17千牛 。
MMPP Salut的新压气机与旧型号的性能比较：?
　　标准压气机 KND-924-4 KND-924-3
　　压气机级数 4 4 3
　　直径 905毫米 924毫米 924毫米
　　增压比（H=0，M=0） 3.55 3.67 4.2

　　Salut的AL-31F发动机升级计划是自筹资金进行的，而NPO土星集团却得到了苏霍伊设计局和俄罗斯空军的支持。NPO 土星计划安装一个新的涡轮，这将能使效率由现有的0.86-0.87提高到0.92-0.93。有两种方案供选择：一是提高加力推力15%至140千牛，或者是通过降低涡轮进口温度110度从 而增加2.5倍的使用寿命。

　　在茹科夫斯基展示的另一项有关Su-27动力装置的改进是矢量喷管。这种被称为“Klivt”的喷管是由Salut和克里莫夫设计局共同研发的 并已经被安装于Su-27 “595”号机。该喷管具有16度的半锥型（三元）偏转范围。相比之下，Su-30MKI装备的AL-31FP发动机仅具有偏转范围+/-15度的二元矢量喷管。对该喷管的飞行测试尚未开始，但至今已进行了400小时左右的静态测试。

　　Su-30KN

　　尽管伊尔库茨克工厂和其自己的设计局Russkaya Avionika提出的Su-30KN升级计划已被俄罗斯空军否决，但研发工作仍在继续。功能上，Su-30KN和Su-27SM非常相似，两者现有火控系统的算法和软件都被保留，新增功能由添加的新的软硬件实现。Su-30KN与Su-27SM的主要区别在于：在Su-27SM上，NIIP使用由Korund制造的Baget-54计算机，而在Su-30KN上，Russkaya Avionika整合了自行设计的MVK计算机。在操作上，NIIP的雷达系统具有增强了的抗干扰性能上的 优势。

　　虽然Russkaya Avionika正在促销其雷达系统用于Su-30战斗机，其主要的兴趣却在于发展供别里也夫 别-200水陆两栖飞机所使用的雷达。

　　俄罗斯空军和海军现在拥有约400架Su-27，制造于1985至1992年年间。对于机队中机龄最短的飞机的改进将首先进行，然后才是较老的飞机， 直至资金耗尽为止。计划的全部细节至今未知，一些报道声称全部Su-27机队将获改进，另一些报道相信现有资金仅供升级20%-25%的飞机。

　　笔者相信俄罗斯空军计划将其全部Su-27机队升级至不同的程度：大部分飞机将作为防空战斗机接受升级，而可能有20%-25%的少量飞机将被完全升级至多用途战斗机的标准。Su-27在俄罗斯空军的重要地位是显而易见的，这点可以从俄罗斯空军现役各型号飞机的封存数量看出。当上百架的 其他较先进的作战飞机被封存了起来时，其中不乏米格-29、米格-31和苏-24等，却没有一架Su-27被封存。

　　中国是Su-27的最大出口用户，在1992至1996年间购买了76架Su-27SK并且已经开始了自行生产。最近，中国还购买了大批的Su-30MKK和MK2多用途战斗机，因此毫无疑问地对把Su-27升级至Su-30MK2的标准感兴趣。其他对Su-27升级计划感兴趣的潜在用户包括：白俄罗斯（23架）、埃塞俄比亚（至少4架）、印尼（4架）、哈萨克斯 坦（14架）、乌克兰（65架）、乌孜别克斯坦（约25架）和越南（8架，不包括新购的Su-30MKK）。

　　下一步如何？

　　Su-27的现代化改进计划是与俄罗斯空军下一代战斗机苏霍伊T-50战斗机的发展并行的。虽然T-50的机体将于2006至2007年完成，但其新发动机、航电设备和武器系统在2012至2015年之前是 不可能完成研制的。这样，T-50最初将使用完全升级的AL-31F发动机和为Su-27SM发展的航电设备进行试飞。据推测，侧卫系列战斗机将在俄罗斯空军中继续服役到至少2022年（甚至 极有有可能至2032年），这意味着未来将有更多的针对SU-27的升级计划，这对保持其战斗力和完整性是十分必要的。

　　怎么看怎么威风的中国版侧卫，只是不知道在威武的躯壳里藏着多少先天不足的东西呢？

[Totoro]

hm, is there a link for that? so i can use babelfish on it.... or could you summarize the artile in few sentences?

[simonov]

Why is PLAAF stop to uy Su-30MKK? R they plann to built it after they master the Su-27 Making, in designation as JH-8 (MKK-3)?

[tphuang]

let me see if I can translate this
　　作为俄罗斯空军持续现代化计划的一部分，苏霍伊设计局选择了KnAAPO（阿穆尔共青城飞机生产联合体 ）作为其苏-27侧卫战斗机一系列升级计划的主承包商。这种被称为Su-27SM的升级型号在很大程度上是基于中国订购的双座Su-30MKK多用途战斗机的基础上的（76架Su-30MKK已于2000至2003年间交付中国）。
sukhoi chose knaapo's design as the upgrade package, calling is su-27sm, many of the upgrades are based on su-30mkk
　　编号38-02，“56”的Su-27SM的原形机本是一架近期生产型飞机，隶属第60战斗机团，驻扎在靠近共青城的Dzemgi，于200 2年12月27日在当地进行了首飞。根据合同，KnAAPO将对更多的飞机进行现代化改装，按计划首批接受 改装的4架飞机中的3架将于2003年年底前完成改装。
su-27sm first flew in Dec 2007, knaapo modified for su-27s by 2003
　　就在首架Su-27SM试飞后不久，一种出口升级演示机的细节被披露了出来。该机使用原Su-27SK 40-42号的机体，序列号36911040102，建造于1998年。该机侧面编号“305”，本来计划于6月 进行的2003年巴黎航展上露面，然而该计划在航展开幕前几天取消，原因是担心飞机被瑞士贸易公司Noga 由于债务纠纷而采取强行法律行动而扣押。随后，Su-27SM于8月在莫斯科举行的MAKS2003国际航空航天展上首次亮相。
also, after su-27sm flied, the Russians also flew an upgrade package for su-27sk, these were disaplyed in MAKS2003
　　航电设备
avionics
　　在众多的升级改进中有一项是由Ramenskoye PKB负责对座仓进行了彻底的重新设计，安装了3个液晶显示器？？两个MFI-9型 7英寸*5英寸显示器以及一个夹在在两者之间的、较小的显示器。与Su-30MKK的前座仓不同，Su-27SM保留的模拟式仪表仅仅是作为备用的，而前者仍将其作为主要飞行仪表使用。Su-27SM的其他改进包括一个新的Elektroavtomatika SILS-27平显，在导航组件中新增了A737全球定位系统以及一套新的通信设备。
3 MFDs, 2 7x5 inch MFD and a really small MFD. different from su-30mkk's front cockpit, su-27sk only use analog meter? as a backup, whereas mkk uses it primarily su-27's upgrade also include SILS-27 HUD and navigation added A737 GPS and a new set of communication system
　　在实际运作上，最有潜力的改进将是对雷达系统的改进。代号“熊猫计划”，Aerokosmichesk oye Oborudowaniye 和它的下属研究院Tikhomirov NIIP正在改进Su-27的N001雷达。这项计划被分为两部分：改进它的空对空性能以及加强其对目标的探测、跟踪及打击能力。 最终的结果是客户将会有一系列雷达型号可供选择，以适应各自不同的需求、进度表和经济承受能力 。
most important is the panda radar upgrade package. changes to the A2A functionality, it's up to the requirement of the customers
　　被称为NOO1V的完全升级型号是供俄罗斯空军使用的，具有使用R-77M主动中距弹同时与2个目标接战的能力。雷达的运算能力显著提高从而使探测距离从现在的43-54海里（80-100公里）提高到73-81海里（135-150公里）。它还将提供目标识别、在集群目标中锁定单一目标以及探测诸如直升机一类的慢速飞行目标的能力 。使用空对地模式，N001V具有地图测绘和动目标鉴别指示的功能。跟踪距离测试按计划将于2003年年底 完成。
N-001V is used by RuAF. able to engage 2 targets with R-77M. The radar increased search range from 80-100 to 135-150 km.
　　由于雷达新的Ts100计算机系统具有共享高速数据传输线路，并使用C和C++高级语言编程，因此仅需 3-4架次的测试飞行进行试验。考虑到传统上飞行测试占用了高达80%的研发经费，用于验证N001V新功能的 少数几次试飞无疑节省了大量资金。

　　雷达性能比较
　　型号 N001 N001VEP
N-001 vs N-001VEP
　　空对空模式
　　同时跟踪目标数 10 10 (TWS tracking)
　　同时接战目标数 1 2  (engagement)
　　对战斗机大小目标的迎头搜索距离 80-100公里 （90-110公里） (detection range)
　　（RCS 3m2）
　　空对地模式
　　对航母搜索距离（RCS 50000m2） / 200-250公里 (detection range vs carriers)
　　对驱逐舰搜索距离（RCS 1000m2） / 150-200公里 (vs destroyers)
　　对快艇搜索距离（RCS 300m2） / 70公里 (vs FACs)
　　对铁路桥搜索距离（RCS 1000m2） / 150-200公里 (vs road and bridges)
　　对集群坦克搜索距离（RCS 30m2） / 70-80公里 (vs tanks)
　　* 俄罗斯空军N001V型的此项参数为135-150公里
The Russian N-001V range is 135-150 km for A2A as opposed to 90-110 for N-001VEP

　　自卫干扰机 (EW suite)
　　Su-27S（俄罗斯空军）:
　　Katun综合系统包括： CKBA/Omsk L006 Beryoza雷达告警接受机，KNIRITI/Zhukov L005
　　Sorbtsiya主动干扰机
su-27 for RuAF uses L006 RWR and L005 ECM
　　Su-27SK（出口型）: L006 Beryoza雷达告警接受机，L203/L204 Gardenia 干扰机
export version uses L006 RWR and L203/L204 ECM
　　Su-27SM（俄罗斯空军）:
　　KNIRITI/Zhukov L175 Khibiny综合系统包括：CKBA/Omsk L150 Pastel雷达导引警告接受机，SAP-518（？）干扰机
Su-27SM uses L150 Pastel RWR and SAP-518 ECM
　　Su-27SM（出口型）: L150 Pastel雷达导引警告接受机，L005 pm
　　Sorbtsiya主动干扰机
su-27sm export uses L150 RWR and L005 pm


　　护航干扰机
(escort jamming?)
and lists what su-27s, su-27sk, su-27sm and su-27sm export uses
　　Su-27S（俄罗斯空军） Su-27SK（出口型） Su-27SM（俄罗斯空军） Su-27SM（出口型）
　　Yatagan综合系统以及 无 KNIRITI/Zhukov 未知 ?
　　KNIRITI/Zhukov SAP-14单元化干扰机
　　L001 Smalta干扰机
　　Pero系统

　　对N001V雷达的进一步发展按计划将在今年实施，力争在每个俄罗斯空军的飞行中队至少配备1到2架飞 机。新雷达将安装称为Pero（羽毛）的相控阵天线，具有同时跟踪15个目标、同时接战8个目标的能力，并 将显著提高对目标的跟踪距离。由于配备了TKS-2（R098）加密数据链，多达16架的Su-27战斗机能被整合成一个集群使用。Pero雷达能使长机在较远的距离上跟踪较多的目标，并把目标信息传递 给其他战斗机，从而使它们能隐蔽接敌。
talks about pero, can track 15 targets and engage 8 at once with improvement in detection range. Uses TKS-2 datalink, can link up to 16 su-27.
　　新增武器

　　在Su-27SM上引入N001V/VEP雷达和光电跟踪系统将赋予俄罗斯空军现役Su-27机队不具备的空对地精确打击能力。尤其是Su-27将能使用Kh-31A超音速反舰导弹和远程（130公里）的Kh-35U亚音速反舰导弹。新雷达还能从动于诸如Kh-29T、Kh-29TE、KAB-500Kr、KAB-1500Kr之类的电视制导导弹和电视制导炸弹的寻的头，并能保证在夜间和恶劣天气下的精确轰炸。
new weapons include kh-31, kh-35u, kh-29t, kh-29TE, kab-500kr, kab-1500kr
　　此外，Su-27SM还能携带电视导引的Kh-59M导弹及其增程型号--285公里射程、主动雷达导引的Kh-59MK型别。新增的L150 Pastel电子侦察系统和Kh-31P反辐射导弹配合，将赋予Su-27SM战斗机全新的SEAD（防空火力压制）能力。
also kh-59m tv guided missile and kh-59mk
　　作为升级计划的一部分，机体结构将得到加强从而使最大起飞重量增加到30450公斤。（俄罗斯空军现役 Su-27战斗机的最大起飞重量是28300公斤，但1992年后制造的出口型号的此项数据已经达到了30450 公斤）由于俄罗斯空军没有相应要求，空中受油能力将仅供出口型号选用。
maximum liftoff increased to 30450 kg
　　　在两个计划中，Salut在MAKS 2003航展上展示了部分细节，因此计划的目标相对明确。该现代化改进计划被分为3个阶段，最初分别被命名 为AL-31F-M1、M2和M3。后来为避免侵犯NPO土星集团的知识产权，Salut删去了“AL-31”前缀。
salyut unveiled AL-31F-M1, M2, M3
　　接受了第一阶段升级的发动机在Su-27 37-11“595”号飞机上进行了飞行测试。首飞时间是2003年1月25日，此后又进行了20次试飞，用于研 究在飞行包线内某些关键点处的发动机稳定性。第一阶段的升级项目包括安装一个新的增大直径KN D-924-4型低压压气机（KND为低压压气机的俄文缩写，924为直径尺寸，毫米，4为4级）和SAU-235数字式控制系统。

　　Sault宣称新控制系统的可靠性是旧系统的3倍而重量却节省了40公斤。新压气机使最大非加力推力由 75.21千牛提高到了81.49千牛，最大加力推力则由122.58千牛提高到了129.80千牛。然而 发动机的重量也由1547公斤微增至1557公斤。

　　在第二阶段现代化改进期间，新的涡轮盘冷却系统将被采用，因此能把加力推力进一步提高到138.26千 牛。在今年将实施的第三阶段，将采用一个全新的、具有3级宽弦叶片的风扇（低压压气机 ）。这种名为KND-924-3的风扇采用整体式叶片盘技术，与老的4级风扇相比具有更大的增压比和更高的效率。一个KND-924-3型风扇已于MAKS 2003航展上作了首次公开展示。如果将其运用到现有发动机上，将能把加力推力提高到143.17千牛 。
MMPP Salut的新压气机与旧型号的性能比较：?
　　标准压气机 KND-924-4 KND-924-3
　　压气机级数 4 4 3
　　直径 905毫米 924毫米 924毫米
　　增压比（H=0，M=0） 3.55 3.67 4.2

　　Salut的AL-31F发动机升级计划是自筹资金进行的，而NPO土星集团却得到了苏霍伊设计局和俄罗斯空军的支持。NPO 土星计划安装一个新的涡轮，这将能使效率由现有的0.86-0.87提高到0.92-0.93。有两种方案供选择：一是提高加力推力15%至140千牛，或者是通过降低涡轮进口温度110度从 而增加2.5倍的使用寿命。

　　在茹科夫斯基展示的另一项有关Su-27动力装置的改进是矢量喷管。这种被称为“Klivt”的喷管是由Salut和克里莫夫设计局共同研发的 并已经被安装于Su-27 “595”号机。该喷管具有16度的半锥型（三元）偏转范围。相比之下，Su-30MKI装备的AL-31FP发动机仅具有偏转范围+/-15度的二元矢量喷管。对该喷管的飞行测试尚未开始，但至今已进行了400小时左右的静态测试。
spends a lot of time talking about the upgrade in engine and how it's done

　　Su-30KN

　　尽管伊尔库茨克工厂和其自己的设计局Russkaya Avionika提出的Su-30KN升级计划已被俄罗斯空军否决，但研发工作仍在继续。功能上，Su-30KN和Su-27SM非常相似，两者现有火控系统的算法和软件都被保留，新增功能由添加的新的软硬件实现。Su-30KN与Su-27SM的主要区别在于：在Su-27SM上，NIIP使用由Korund制造的Baget-54计算机，而在Su-30KN上，Russkaya Avionika整合了自行设计的MVK计算机。在操作上，NIIP的雷达系统具有增强了的抗干扰性能上的 优势。
IAPO's su-30kn is similar to su-27sm
　　虽然Russkaya Avionika正在促销其雷达系统用于Su-30战斗机，其主要的兴趣却在于发展供别里也夫 别-200水陆两栖飞机所使用的雷达。

　　俄罗斯空军和海军现在拥有约400架Su-27，制造于1985至1992年年间。对于机队中机龄最短的飞机的改进将首先进行，然后才是较老的飞机， 直至资金耗尽为止。计划的全部细节至今未知，一些报道声称全部Su-27机队将获改进，另一些报道相信现有资金仅供升级20%-25%的飞机。
russia has 400 su-27, but probably only has money to upgrade 20-25% of them
　
　　下一步如何？

　　Su-27的现代化改进计划是与俄罗斯空军下一代战斗机苏霍伊T-50战斗机的发展并行的。虽然T-50的机体将于2006至2007年完成，但其新发动机、航电设备和武器系统在2012至2015年之前是 不可能完成研制的。这样，T-50最初将使用完全升级的AL-31F发动机和为Su-27SM发展的航电设备进行试飞。据推测，侧卫系列战斗机将在俄罗斯空军中继续服役到至少2022年（甚至 极有有可能至2032年），这意味着未来将有更多的针对SU-27的升级计划，这对保持其战斗力和完整性是十分必要的。
what's next step? T-50 is the next step.


that's pretty much it. As for why China is not buying more su-30. It's because China realized su-30 isn't worth the money.

[simonov]

f they won't buy it, are they will built like J-11 A, under the designation as JH-8?

[sumdud]

Unlikely. J-11A is a fighter, but we are certain that the J-11B is coming out. Since Fighters and strike planes have merged much together these days under the name fighter, you can pretty much forget the name JH-8, thought it can be used as a strike plane.

[tphuang]

well, we might as well treat this as the flanker thread.
This is from the latest kanwa issue.
reporting a new division in lanzhou and the new engine purchases.

I'm not convinced that those new engines are for J-11B. I personally think they are for upgrading su-30mkk and old su-27 since their original engines should be nearing the end of their service time by now, but that's just my opinion. Yeah I know the Russians promise a lot, but their service time never reach what they said.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3746/11168789497gk.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8282/11168819364yr.jpg

[renmin]

Russia does supply alot and I mean alot of military equpment to China. Could Russia keep up their promises I do not know. But from my side, engines are a easier product to import. I think it could very well be for J11B. From my knowledge arnt J-11s now also armed with rocket pods for ground attacks? Correct me if Im wrong.

[MIGleader]

The su-27s were armed with rocket pods a long time ago. They used them in the 1996 excercises, to conduct very outdated unguided ground attacks. Even helicopters can use rocket pods more effectively.

typhuang, I doubt that the r-77 can fire 100km, but 50 is too short. 50km is the range of the AMRAAM and the Derby. The r-77 is bigger than the Amraam, and has a very powerful motor. The missle travels slowly for a A2A missle(mach 3), all of which add up to the conclusion that the r-77 must have a longer range, probably 75km. Of course, you never fire your missle at maximum range.

[tphuang]

The su-27s were armed with rocket pods a long time ago. They used them in the 1996 excercises, to conduct very outdated unguided ground attacks. Even helicopters can use rocket pods more effectively.

typhuang, I doubt that the r-77 can fire 100km, but 50 is too short. 50km is the range of the AMRAAM and the Derby. The r-77 is bigger than the Amraam, and has a very powerful motor. The missle travels slowly for a A2A missle(mach 3), all of which add up to the conclusion that the r-77 must have a longer range, probably 75km. Of course, you never fire your missle at maximum range.
actually, the maximum range of R-77 is probably 100KM (so, it can theoretically go that far), but that's not the maximum effective range of R-77.

I guess it depends on what profile you are measuring the range under. Different profiles, different range.

Anyway, having looked over the article and examined it more carefully, the stuff about Lanzhou getting a new regiment is just junk. Seriously, the photos for the 19th division http://www.china-military.org/units/jinan/19div/19div_pix.htm
clearly shows that the flankers with serial number 30106 and 30107 are for this division. Not the 37th or 47th division as mentionned by Kanwa. This is getting sad. Their analysis is based on the flankers' background.

[Totoro]

Hm, well, i recently compared few missiles, got as much info bout their test firings as i could and tried to extrapolate some results, depending on their size, weight (minus warhead), speed. It does assume engine/fuel is of same efficiency in every missile - which might be wrong.

I concluded max range for mica is just under 70 km, for r77 is just under 100km, for aim120c7 is just over 80 km. That is, of course, max theoretical range in perfect conditions - highest speed at launch, highest altitude, stationary target not evading, etc. Anyone care to agree or disagree?

[MIGleader]

Ive heard way to many figures fo the aim-120C7 to be sure. i ve heard 60km, 80-100km, and even as daring as 150 km.

Btw, the r-77 is not the PLAAFs longest ranging active seeker missle. The r-27AE has a range of 130km, the longest ive seen for a MRAAM.

[Baibar of Jalat]

the missile long range would be effective at neutralising AWACs and other slow moving but valuable targets.

plus with the monueverability of flanker could also defend against enemy fighters, which the mig 31 lacks. my thoughts are based on. People on this forum have speculated that the reason why Indian fighters won in mock dog fights against f-15s were partially due to lack of US AWACS support. (a bit of topic)

[crobato]

actually, the maximum range of R-77 is probably 100KM (so, it can theoretically go that far), but that's not the maximum effective range of R-77.

I guess it depends on what profile you are measuring the range under. Different profiles, different range.

Anyway, having looked over the article and examined it more carefully, the stuff about Lanzhou getting a new regiment is just junk. Seriously, the photos for the 19th division http://www.china-military.org/units/jinan/19div/19div_pix.htm
clearly shows that the flankers with serial number 30106 and 30107 are for this division. Not the 37th or 47th division as mentionned by Kanwa. This is getting sad. Their analysis is based on the flankers' background.

Yes quite sad.

I do have to add that Lanzhou MR already has J-11s, but KANWA didn't know that the 6th Division---which is reported to have J-11s even as back as 2004---happens to belong to Lanzhou MR.

Hui Tong's pic of J-11 10574

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/gallery/J-11_54.jpg

is a J-11 belonging to the 6th Division assigned Lanzhou MR.

The thing is, the 6th Division hardly gets any media coverage compared to the other Flanker equipped divisions, so it may finally be getting some overdue coverage.

Having 19th Division planes pictures in the Kong Jun Bao article only means three things---

1. The KJB editors are lazy and is just using the 19th Division pics as file pictures to visually embellish the article. In the press it's called a file picture and is only meant to furbish an article in a generic sense.

2. The next is that 19th Division J-11s and Su-27s, many of which are old, are being transferred to Lanzhou. Lanzhou MR is way west, and away from the front lines. It's a good place to deposit older planes, while formations in the east upgrade to new planes. The 19th Division has a front row seat in the east. There is some speculation that the older Su-27s in the 2nd Division had the same fate.

3. The last possibility is that the 19th Division is there in Lanzhou to participate in wargames. The area in the back of China is good for wargaming due to the abundance of space and environment, much like the west in the US.

My gut feeling is #1. The KJB article is just finally giving the 6th Division its media due but using file pics which were of the 19th Division. Since Kanwa didn't know about the 6th Division, it just seems "first time" for him. Which makes me think he is even more clueless than I previously assumed.

If there is any new J-11 assignments it is probably in a new base in Liancheng, in Fujien province. This is just across the straits. There was a Taiwan news report about this in December 2005, and a PLA article about J-11s exercising from a new location. Recently, satellite photos have indeed confirmed the presence of Sues in this location.

As for the 47th, I don't think it is active any longer. The 37th Division is something to watch out for though. It has a J-7E regiment, a J-7B/H one and recently a J-7G conversion. As I said before, a J-7 regiment is prime candidate for a J-10 or J-11 conversion in the future.

[Twix101]

Ive heard way to many figures fo the aim-120C7 to be sure. i ve heard 60km, 80-100km, and even as daring as 150 km.

Btw, the r-77 is not the PLAAFs longest ranging active seeker missle. The r-27AE has a range of 130km, the longest ive seen for a MRAAM.

The range of this kind of missile depend greatly of the kind of target, if it's a modern Fighter, you will have a lower range than if it's a bomber. For example, the AIM-120B AMRAAM have a range of 70km for a terminal 3-4G manoeuver from target and the MICA EM have a range of 60km for a terminal 9G manoeuver from target.

[Totoro]

While in practice such rule of thumb is true - that you can engange less agile planes at max range - in theory you can bring down any plane at max range of the missile. Key being that the target is oblivious of incoming missile. In a situation where other aircraft (other than one that launches the missile) illuminate the target from afar, where the launching aircraft is not detected by enemy radar, and in the situation where target's missile warning systems fail - be it cause theyre too old to deal with newest amraams (say, mig 21) or that the missile itself doesn't emit any signal - the theory may, in very selected situations, transform into usable practice.

[Sabertooth05]

Hello guys, saw a TV program here that showed Indian Su30 MKIs in dogfight. It was amazing..... Showed all the use of TVC and the canards... There was even the acclaimed tailslide.... definitely shows the advantage of TVC... Hope MKK2s or MKK3s get TVC... r they gettin'em?

[MIGleader]

Wow, what channels do you get?

anyhow, those are just tricks to show off. They have little value in real combat. The main advantage of TVC is a tighter turn radius, higher angles of attack, and better ability to evade missles.

The mkk2 is an attacker, and will probably never have tvc. mkk3 is cancelled.

[ahho]

Wow, what channels do you get?

anyhow, those are just tricks to show off. They have little value in real combat. The main advantage of TVC is a tighter turn radius, higher angles of attack, and better ability to evade missles.

The mkk2 is an attacker, and will probably never have tvc. mkk3 is cancelled.

Just wondering, why was mkk3 cancelled (i thought mkk2 was also canceled)???

was it because the j-11 upgrade was enough for an air superiority role and cutting cost??

[Sabertooth05]

Hi MIGleader, the channel is called Times Now... a news channel.
By the way forgot to tell ya guys... The second part, to be telecast nextweek, contains BVR training.... ;-)

[MIGleader]

Just wondering, why was mkk3 cancelled (i thought mkk2 was also canceled)???

was it because the j-11 upgrade was enough for an air superiority role and cutting cost??

Apparently the PLAAF was looking for superior attack capability in the original MKK and MKK2, but did not find it. Something about the radar being too old. PLus, the saspan-E could not guide bombs unless the plane was facing down vertically.

IMO, the PLAAF shouldnt have cancelled the MKK3, but what is done is done.
The mkk3 was supposed to feature a new Phazotron Zhuk-MS radar, with 190km against planes and 300km againt ships. Now that is impressive.

I guess this cancellation must be what prompted the russians to try to offer su-35, but with no success.

[sumdud]

I don't know about the radar, but I am sure that when the Su-30MKK was out as set by the deadline, MKK was still unable to deliver most of its AGMs since the Sanpan pod was still being made. TV munitons can be dropped, but not laser ones, unless the plane flips over and uses its IRST. The IRST probably was better being on the bottom though, since the MKK was primarily a strike plane.

And of course, the incoming of JH-7, using abundant Chinese weapons, didn't help the MKK either.

[tphuang]

well, the Russians are displaying su-35 in Zhuhai, let's see what China makes of this.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061031/55256972.html

ZHUHAI (China), October 31 (RIA Novosti) - Sukhoi, Russia's state-owned aircraft manufacturing holding, said Tuesday a prototype of its advanced multi-role fighter has been undergoing flight tests.

Sukhoi is among more than 50 Russian companies showcasing their aircraft and aerospace technologies at the sixth China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition (Airshow China 2006), which opened today in Zhuhai, in southern China.

"A prototype of the Su-35 has already conducted test flights, but I cannot give you more details," said Sergei Sergeyev, deputy general director of the holding and head of Sukhoi's China office.

He also said the company has started to promote the Su-35 fighter on the Chinese market.

The Su-35 Flanker-E is an advanced version of the Su-27 interceptor and is powered by two AL-37F engines. It is a versatile fighter that combines high maneuverability and the capacity to intercept air targets with ground and sea attack capability using both unguided and guided, including high precision, weapons.

[tphuang]

no idea what kind of cooperations the Russians are looking for here, but they seem to make a lot of impression on the media.

ZHUHAI (China). Nov 2 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia and China will
develop cooperation in military aircraft building, Federal Industry
Agency head Boris Alyoshin told Interfax-AVN on the sideline of the
Airshow China 2006 international aerospace show.
"China is trying to diversify its aviation industry with the focus
on technologies. Their potential is purposefully growing. China is
trying to adapt every imported item to the local industries. Further
development of the Sukhoi Su-30 project is under consideration. I am
positive that we will develop military cooperation, especially in
building such planes," he said.
China is targeted for the full cycle of aircraft building, from
blueprints to finished products, Alyoshin said. "Our policy should be
formed with due consideration of this fact. Our bids should be
interesting for us, in the first terms. Our aircraft building industry
has a well-developed military component, and a less developed civilian
component. It would be of interest for us to develop the civilian
component together with China and share risks or establishing a
partnership in the aircraft design and production. Time will show what
will happen," he said.
For details, see the Interfax - Military News Agency newswire.

[tphuang]

claims to be the SAPSAN-E laser targetting pod
http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/8043/sapsanefr0.jpg
not sure, I've never actually seen the SAPSAN-E pod before this, maybe Crobato can verify?

[crobato]

Lol.

Unit numbers look like 111XX and I'm guessing its 11148, which puts this plane in the first regiment of the 3rd Division (7th Regiment?). However, the "1" second digit shows the regiment is no longer the lead regiment, since the "0" is taken up by the regiment taking J-10s.

I have to concur with the pods. That definitely confirms SAPSAN-E is operational with the PLAAF.

The other pod near it is something that works with the Kh-59ME, like an extended datalink and communications device. Just forgot the name of it at the moment.

You can clearly see both Kh-29TE and Kh-59ME in the wings.

Note the R-77s on the ground.

The article suggests that China may be warming up again on possible Su-30 purchases in the future. It looks to me that the Russians may have found a technology sweet spot they could offer to the Chinese now. Perhaps a more advanced form of Su-30MKK that can satisfy Chinese requirements which obviously have outgrown the original MKK. The MK2 may be skipped.

[tphuang]

This is an article on J-11B from aviationnow. They tried to tie a lot of what J-11B uses to Zhuhai airshow, although I personally only expect KD-88 and LT-2 to be used by plaaf.
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/aw110606p2.xml

OWER PLAY

China is in the midst of a critical period of testing an "indigenous" version of the Russian Su-27 Flanker, known as the J-11B, with propulsion, radar and weapons system integration underway.

The effort is emblematic of Beijing's efforts to recast its capabilities for the 21st century as its military and associated defense-aerospace sector undergoes its own revolution in military affairs.

The development of the J-11B, if successful, will mark a notable change in capability--not only for key elements of the country's defense industrial base, but also for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The Chinese military is recalibrating the balance of quantity and quality in favor of the latter, as a guarantor of a decisive military edge and the ability to project power regionally. At the same time, the nature of the relationship between Beijing and Moscow may be subtly changing, reflecting China's growing confidence in its own capabilities.

Alongside key elements on the J-11B, Chinese industry is beginning to produce a gamut of capable guided weapons, both tactical and strategic, including satellite-guided precision systems. The emergence of unmanned platforms is also gaining the attention of Beijing.

The nationally developed systems now in various stages of the J-11B test program potentially provide performance improvements over the various Su-27 models now in PLAAF service.

Air Show China, held here Oct. 31-Nov. 5, included the first official detail about the Shenyang Tai Hang engine. This turbofan powerplant is being developed for the Flanker, and is also sometimes referred to as the WS-10A. A handful of J-11B airframes are now likely being used for development testing, including at least one J-11B engine-integration aircraft.

Beijing and Moscow first agreed on the Flanker sale in 1991, with a license production contract signed in 1996. The Flanker has given China its most capable fighter aircraft while also providing a vehicle for its industry to gain knowledge of fourth-generation fighter manufacturing. The first kit-built J-11A was completed in 1998. The J-11A still uses Russian engines, radar and weaponry.

Design and development of the Tai Hang has been underway for nearly two decades, says one senior Chinese aero-engine executive. He admits the program has proved challenging: "We hit difficulties in developing the engine."

Chinese industry executives attending the show remain reticent to discuss the J-11B program. The executive would say only that the Tai Hang has "similar applications to the Al-31 [the present Su-27 engine]. It's of a similar thrust and is of the same technology generation." The J-11B program also includes the integration of Chinese-developed planar array pulse-Doppler radar replacing the Russian N-001 cassegrain radar, at least two versions of which are fielded by the PLAAF. An image of a J-11B, still in its primer (see top photo on p. 27), appears to show the aircraft fitted with a different radome to the basic Su-27. Given the available space for a flat-plate antenna, this would offer a performance improvement over the N-0001.

Also associated with the J-11B is the Luoyang PL-12 active radar-guided medium-range air-to-air missile. While the Chinese air force already has the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) in service with the Su-27, the PL-12 offers a big performance increase over the present export standard of the Vympel R-77. Officials from the company were unable to discuss the PL-12 project.

The initial development test-firing program for the overall PL-12 program now appears complete, with the missile at least close to service entry. It was integrated first on the J-8II for the development program. Trials of the PL-12 on the Chengdu J-10 also have been carried out.

The PL-12 does benefit from Russian technology, with the seeker and inertial guidance system provided by Moscow. A variant of the Agat 9B-1103M radar seeker is the most likely candidate for the missile. This seeker was intended initially for an improved version of the R-77, but appears to have been sold to China first.

The PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27, R-77 combination. Successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multitarget capability and give the PLAAF a more capable air superiority aircraft.

The country is also moving to fill gaps in its tactical weapons capability, and to bolster its ability to support combat aircraft export proposals with credible guided-weapons packages. The show included the presentation of several previously unseen air-launched tactical systems. Luoyang showed the LT-2 laser-guided bomb, along with the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb (middle photo). Rival China Aerospace and Technology Corp. unveiled its FT-1 and FT-3 satellite-guided weapons family. Both are aimed at potential exports of the FC-1 light fighter, including Pakistan, and likely national requirements.

Meanwhile, China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp. (Casic) showed the C-704 antiship missile (bottom photo), along with the C-802KD air-to-surface version of the C-802 antiship weapon.

The LT-2 has been in service with the Chinese air force "for more than three years," says a Luoyang executive. The 500-kg.-class (1,100-lb.) weapon resembles the Russian KAB family. The official suggested that the laser-guided bomb has a range of up to 20 km. (12.4 mi.) from high altitude, with an average accuracy of about 2 meters (6.5 ft.).

The LS-6 appears, in effect, a successor system, with a family of weapons planned. The official says "about a dozen" launch tests of the LS-6 precision bomb kit have been carried out using a Shenyang J-8II as the test aircraft. The program was begun in 2003, with testing now complete.

He identifies the JF-17--the Pakistan air force designation for the Chengdu FC-1 now in development--as the next intended aircraft for integration of the weapon. Guidance is provided by an inertial package coupled with satellite navigation. The official says the weapons family will be capable of using three systems--the U.S. GPS, the Russian Glonass and China's own Beidou system. The architecture for this system eventually foresees using five satellites in geosynchronous orbit (GEO) and up to 30 non-GEO platforms.

The 500-kg. LS-6 has a maximum launch range of 60 km. from medium altitude. A 1,000-kg. kit has also been considered, although this requires a larger wing. A 250-kg. variant is in the pipeline as well. Also under study is the addition of a laser seeker.

The two weapons shown by Casic cover the 250-kg. and 500-kg. class. The FT-1 bears a resemblance to the U.S. Joint Direct Attack Munition. Development began in 2001, according to a company executive. Tests have been carried out from a Xian JH-7. Range of the FT-1 is given as up to 18 km., depending on the release altitude and aircraft speed, with an accuracy of "30 meters, or less." Casic subsidiary China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corp. is responsible for the C-704. At least a small batch of the antiship missile has been produced.

The design is strongly reminiscent of the Hongdu JJ/TL-6 antiship missile, although dimensions and performance figures for the two vary slightly. Data provided for the C-704 give the monopulse active-radar-guided missile a maximum engagement range of 35 km.

The company is also offering a further variant of its C-802 antiship missile. The air-launched C-802KD is claimed to be capable of engaging ships in harbor or some fixed land targets. Given that the missile is fitted with a radar seeker only, land targets would need to provide a high radar contrast.

An electro-optically guided medium-size air-launched weapon in a similar class