China Flanker thread

[tphuang]

if those weapon platform are old cheap and obselet, doesnt that also mean the China is really stupid for wasting billions of dollars on them? mkk are more capable than any other plane in China. Super 10 should be something thats on parr with F-22 or F-35, which means they are going to be expensive and very few deployment. Su-27 and its variants can still have a place in plaaf as a low tech combo to super-10.

that's not really correct. J-10 is far more capable than the mkk. I personally think they needed mkk at the time, because China did not have anything with that kind of multi-role capability. Also, it gave China a lot of ground atttack weapons and PGMs and such. Which, they did not have before. But, it seems like China's ground attack munitions are really rounding out recently and JH-7A can make good use of a wide variety of Russian and Chinese weapons, so that's why you are not really seeing any further purchase of mkk (along with the fact that mkk aren't that great of air superiority platform).

As for flanker's place in PLAAF, I've been pretty consistent on this.

As for some of the stuff we got from the Russians, I wouldn't call them top of the line even if they are top of the line for Russians.

The kilos are from the 70s and they certainly aren't as quiet as modern designs. Sovs are also from the 70s and certainly don't measure up to the new AAW ships in Europe and East Asia (referring to KDX-3 and Atago). The list goes on.

[Chengdu J-10]

Chengdu J-10

Perhaps Russia didn't expect China to come along that fast. Sell them something good but not the best, to keep them away(technical); and a few years later sell them more advanced systems to make money again. Well if that was the intention, it went wrong ...

That Su-33UB (http://www.aviation-fr.info/guide/images/su27/su-27kub.jpg) still looks odd to me with that seat-config

Crobato


Will it come with that “Zhuk-MSFEh” aircraft radar that was implemented in test aircrafts after the "succesfull bench tests and revision" some 3 years ago ?
Reason for my question is because of weapon use. Russian AShM with russian radar, chinese AShM implemented, or chinese radar ?
That's Russian military for you. They (Russia) should've planned way ahead the effects of not giving the Chinese their latest and advance equipment. Russia only planned ahead for just a few years while the China planned ahead for what 10+ years. If Russia planned ahead they wouldn't be in this mess, and would still be selling China a load of stuff than today. Look at Russia now they are basically offering everthing (not everything) to China. but since China is booming in most aspects in military they are getting less and less keen on Russian equipments. The reason why China bought the Su-30 might of been the stop gap and need for a multirole fighter to be in the PLAAF for the time being. Until the indigineous J-10 could be ready for mass production, due to further modifications, refinining, prototypes and testing. I agree with Tphuang that Russia so called top of the line stuff to China isn't really top of the line, maybe it was during the time but no at present. The Super 10 I think will be more capable and advance than the F-35 but still tailing behind the F-22 by just a bit.

[crobato]

Sell them something good but not the best, to keep them away(technical); and a few years later sell them more advanced systems to make money again. Well if that was the intention, it went wrong ...

Let us not blame this completely on the Russians; this is a very common everyday business tactic, especially in the electronics and computer business. Look for no better example of this practice than Microsoft.

Russia only planned ahead for just a few years while the China planned ahead for what 10+ years. If Russia planned ahead they wouldn't be in this mess, and would still be selling China a load of stuff than today.

One cannot blame this completely on the Russians too. The Chinese had every opportunity to work on the long term just like the Indians did with the MKI. But in fact, the Chinese were only focusing on the short term because they had their own projects to fulfill. The Russian stuff were always meant to be stop gaps.

Another thing, When Ah Bian took office, there was a certain sense of urgency in Jiang Zhemin's administration for a near term show of force if CSB decides to misbehave, like crossing the line on Taiwan independence issues. Thus China needed soemthing in the short term, and so started quickly buying up Russian stuff. The MKK was designed with a lot of short cuts that was mean to get it working and certified quickly. It didn't really improve much on the proven but basic N001E radar, just added seperate ground attack systems.

The policies under HJT will be different from JZM. Should the Russians realize this, it is time to overhaul their approach in selling to China, since other than J-10 engines, there has not been a new and succesfull Rusarms sale delivered to China.

[Scratch]

Regarding that "top of the line" issue in the two countries. I think that Russia, with it's long experiance, is still ahead of China in some areas regarding high-end technology. But only in theories. When it comes to engineering and fielding a system (availability) China does that part better on it's on.
They just need to get russian thoretical knowledge and therefore are engaged in some arms deals, I think.

[mehdi]

Russians are more interested to get the butter out of China but it's not working now. The Russians need to be more practical in their approach with China cause they are doing it all wrong. In the near future the roles will be reversed as China will replace Russia as a world leader in exports of weapons.

[crobato]

Regarding that "top of the line" issue in the two countries. I think that Russia, with it's long experiance, is still ahead of China in some areas regarding high-end technology. But only in theories. When it comes to engineering and fielding a system (availability) China does that part better on it's on.
They just need to get russian thoretical knowledge and therefore are engaged in some arms deals, I think.

The Chinese have some very good theoriticists, what they don't have are aged mature engineering veterans lilke the Russians did. Engineers like Song Wen Cong who led the J-10 project isn't very common since much of his ilk went out in the Cultural Revolution. China has a new engineer class that grew out from teh eighties and the nineties but these are all young lions and geeks. But as their experience grows, they are expected to produce some breaking work.

The Russians have many mature engineers, but on the other hand, they are increasingly retired like the original designers of the Su-27. Sukhoi and MiG will probably have a much more difficult time now if they are asked to produce an entirely new airframe instead of constantly modifying Soviet Union era aircraft. The Russians are also bleeding talent to the commercial sector and many young Russian engineers are not going to work in the defense industry which is poorly paid. Back in the nineties, a lot of engineers left their firms because because being a taxi driver in Moscow pays better. One wonders how many Russian engineers went to China as individuals to find work there instead.

Another problem with the Russians is that many of the old projects are not exactly Russian, but Soviet Union. They had the collective help of other Soviet republics like the Ukraine and Belarussia. Once the SU splits, so did the talent pool.

Which is why I think the Russians have problems completing some of their projects or delivering contracts. I am very much in doubt they can do their PAK-FA without serious help from the Indians and the Chinese, and not just financial.

[Chengdu J-10]

The Russians are still relying on the older successful upgraded airframes for marketing for potential customers. As some people may have heard (lost the source) that Russia's pay to their military engineers were so low that their engineers quite their jobs and some went to China to help the Chinese in military. If this is correct from my recollection this is a serious issue for Russia but a gain for China. Referring to Crobato post early I wasn't intentionaly blaming it on Russia if you had this impression. I was trying to say that Russia had sort of dug itself into its own grave in a way. I wasn't talking about the projects and all that i was talking about its partial ban of military equipment to China but on the other hand allowed India to purchase them. And about the 10+ year thing that was reffering to the Soviet Union collapsing in the Cold War due to they weren't planning way ahead, and soon used up all their money. (poor planning) While China is progressing at a constant rate with enough money for many years ahead without collasping like the Soviet Union.

[mehdi]

Has anyone here know the specifications of the Su-30 Russia sold to Venezuela are they in the Chinese Su-30 MKK line of that of the Indian Su-30 MKI line.

[tphuang]

Has anyone here know the specifications of the Su-30 Russia sold to Venezuela are they in the Chinese Su-30 MKK line of that of the Indian Su-30 MKI line.
I believe they are mkk2 standard. Although, they are probably using Zhuk-MSE instead of N-001VEP. Also, not sure about the engine, it could be upgraded one.

[crobato]

I think they're still using the N001VEP.

There is no indication or news release to suggest that the Zhuk would have been. I am pretty sure Phazotron would more than eagerly jump to the publicity opportunity if this was true.

[BLUEJACKET]

[QUOTE=Chengdu J-10;51129].. Russia so called top of the line stuff to China isn't really top of the line, maybe it was during the time but no at present. QUOTE]
This may be so, but the supersonic missiles they carry have no counterparts in the West! Also, compared to what China had those were top of the line(and in some cases still are), & every ship/sub of the same class is somewhat different than the preceding one- they aren't built at the same time and do incorporate innovations, plus the older units get retrofitted too, like the USN Nimitz carriers and LA class subs! I now also think that the reason for lack of interest to purchase Tu-22s (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2504)is not only it's too late, but also that there is a commitment to build more H-6s (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2326)- what they'll lack in speed will be made up in numbers!

[Chengdu J-10]

One possible reason why they are sticking to the H-6 instead of the Tu-22 might be. The change in the PLAAF, the Tu-22 had the speed to drop and go without too much problems while the H-6 was slower so they would or might experience some problems (enemy fire). But since the PLAAF have acquired some top notch fighters: Su-27, Su-30, J-10 and the upgraded J-7, J-8 they have the improved ability of defending the H-6 now. While in the past they had little power in defending the H-6, resorting in the idea of purchasing the Tu-22 due to its speed and range. Just a thought OK

[RedMercury]

Problem with Tu-22 is that there are no new-builds, nor is Russia able to build any new ones at short notice. So China would be getting used planes. Who would want such aging equipment. Also, the variable geometry wing is a huge maintenance burden.

[mehdi]

Why not buy the technology to build those Tu-22 and construct new ones with uptodate technology.

[Kilo636]

Why not buy the technology to build those Tu-22 and construct new ones with uptodate technology.

Built a huge delta and high speed heavy bomber with 3 WS-10A? Something like a enlarge version of J-8II with internal missile bay....

[eecsmaster]

by the time you roll out your first flying prototype, most of the original backfires would be in scrap yards.

[crobato]

One possible reason why they are sticking to the H-6 instead of the Tu-22 might be. The change in the PLAAF, the Tu-22 had the speed to drop and go without too much problems while the H-6 was slower so they would or might experience some problems (enemy fire). But since the PLAAF have acquired some top notch fighters: Su-27, Su-30, J-10 and the upgraded J-7, J-8 they have the improved ability of defending the H-6 now. While in the past they had little power in defending the H-6, resorting in the idea of purchasing the Tu-22 due to its speed and range. Just a thought OK


That's also a possibility.

But the biggest possibility is that with long range standoff weapons, H-6s do not need to fly into hostile air space to launch their weapons. This makes supersonic bomber moot.

[Chengdu J-10]

That's also a possibility.

But the biggest possibility is that with long range standoff weapons, H-6s do not need to fly into hostile air space to launch their weapons. This makes supersonic bomber moot.
I was thinking about the Soviet Union and China battle between their borders, after the Soviet-Sino relationship slip. The H-6 might of been initially to launch attacks out of Chinese terriotory. Hostile air was present during the time were the borders lay. This could've been a scenario, but the PLAAF realised that it was insufficient and reckless to do so.

[crobato]

I was thinking about the Soviet Union and China battle between their borders, after the Soviet-Sino relationship slip. The H-6 might of been initially to launch attacks out of Chinese terriotory. Hostile air was present during the time were the borders lay. This could've been a scenario, but the PLAAF realised that it was insufficient and reckless to do so.

The H-6 wasn't good enough for that scenario. Remember, what made these old bombers "safe" again was due to the introduction of long range stand off missiles, which H-6s won't be getting until decades later from this time period.

At that time, bombing is the old fashioned way, carpet bombing over your heads, or by low level interdiction. H-6 is poor for that. This is when planes like the Su-24, F-111, even the Tu-22s become justified. They were meant to fly fast and low into enemy airspace, do their job and get out as quickly as possible.

China certainly at that time didn't have anything worthy. The H-6s are too slow and the Q-5s are too short ranged. Hence the development of the JH-7.

The low level interdiction role is becoming moot. Note that this happens to be a cornerstones of the Cold War NATO's air tactics, and planes like Tornados, Jaguars and Phantoms trained for it.

It's a better strategy on paper than on real life. When F-111s bombed Khadaffy, the US lost one F-111 and a few others may have been damaged. Gulf War 1 also threw cold water on the concept as some Tornadoes were lost. MANPADS and other small SAMs continue make this a dangerous occupation even as more established air defenses were peeled off via SEAD/DEAD operations.

Kosovo changed things again, because now, we are back to bombing from high again. Instead of low level PGM strike using LGBs, EO weapons like Mavericks, we now have high level near PGM strike via JDAMs.

JH-7 concept as a striker originated in the Su-24/F-111 era, albeit mixed with Jaguar and Tornado concepts (ironically the last two are also Rolls Royce powered). There was little doubt for me the JH-7 was influenced by British concepts of low level strike at that time. However, we have moved from such concepts by at least one generation in doctrine.

As standoff platforms, where at best, you fire cruise missiles or GPS guided weapons from a high altitude, you really don't need JH-7 or even Su-30MKK type of design. Ironically it has come full circle back to the traditional jet bomber with long wings. Long wingspans make the plane handle better than jet fighters at high altitudes---high up, even a B-52 can out turn a MiG-21. Old style turbojets are also more efficient than new school turbofans right up high. For launching cruise missiles and JDAM like bombs, who is to say that an Su-30MKK or a JH-7A is better than an H-6? Likewise with a B-52 bomber against Strike Eagles or F-16Cs.

In essence you have no reason for a B-1b or Tu-160 bomber either. These were also conceived in the concept of low level interdiction. Today, they're just another high level bomber that isn't as efficient in the task as something originally concieved for it.

[mehdi]

Hey Crobato I would like to ask your comments on the Su-34 is there any possibility that China could buy or co-produce it???

Secondly do you accept the idea that China needs a long range bomber to replace those H-6s !!!

What can be the possible options except the Su-34!!!

[crobato]

I don't really think the Su-34 would be efficient or deliver anything of an improvement over the H-6 if the purpose of the PLAAF for a bomber is either/or a standoff cruise missile or antiship launcher, and a JDAM bomb launcher.

It even has its own disadvantages at height due to being turbofans and the lack of wingspan. It has less space, so less crew and equipment. You can put a large chin radar on the H-6 as they do know with the H-6H/M versions, but on the Su-34, the platypus bill still limits you to a fighter size radar array.

For the resources spent trying to acquire the Su-34, you can spend it improving the J-10/J-11 or increasing their quantities, so they can do a much better job in protecting the H-6s.

If China needs another bomber, it should be more of a B-52 like plane, large with long wingspans, high payload and enough hardpoints to carry numbers of cruise missiles and antiship missiles. The B-52H would be most impressive for the PLANAF for example, like those that were once deployed with the 43rd Bombardment Wing in Guam during the eighties. These planes could carry as much as 8 (or is it 12) Harpoons.

I'm not really as much in favor of creating a B-2 like stealth bomber. For what you are trying to achieve in stealth is too much. I think its better to just focus on the basics---as much payload as you can lift, as much hardpoints to put bombs and missiles, as much loiter range to stay on the air as long as possible, and as much space to crew and equipment, so the plane can serve as its own search and targeting station. If you want to focus on stealth, focus stealth on the cruise missile itself, not on the bomber.

Not only will that be cheaper, but the cruise missile will be uninterceptible. What's the point of a stealthy bomber if the missiles itself are not stealthy and can be shot down.

I don't think the Su-34 is as defensible as any Su-30 when it encounters aerial opposition. In any case, its better to build a doctrine around circumeventing that aerial opposition rather than fight through it.

[Chengdu J-10]

Building a strong squadron of J-11 and J-10's to protect the H-6 will be more cost efficient and beneficial to the PLAAF. Upgrading and modifying the H-6 to carry more payload with more hardpoints will be ideal for the delivery, while the J-11 and J-10's will protect the air for the H-6. Su-34 is an expensive choice for the PLAAF and its design is nothing new or extrodanary. Just some modifications to the original flankers. China has the knowledge now of producing the Su-27 so it wouldn't take long now for the Chinese to develop something like the Su-34 by themselves. Due to China's booming aviation industry and wealth. Though I still think the H-6 being protected by further upgraded J-11 and J-10's would be a wise idea.

[tphuang]

alright, this is an interesting piece from an article, not sure if it's fake or not.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6213/su33articleyo1.jpg
basically says that in Zhuhai 2006 airshow, this company (I assume SAC) signed an agreement with this company, not sure what it's English name is, to get 65 important carrier fighter related components, solved the problem SAC might have with repairs in the next few years.
And a bunch of other stuff in there too.

[BLUEJACKET]

Building a strong squadron of J-11 and J-10's to protect the H-6 will be more cost efficient and beneficial to the PLAAF. Upgrading and modifying the H-6 to carry more payload with more hardpoints will be ideal for the delivery, while the J-11 and J-10's will protect the air for the H-6. Su-34 is an expensive choice for the PLAAF and its design is nothing new or extrodanary. Just some modifications to the original flankers. China has the knowledge now of producing the Su-27 so it wouldn't take long now for the Chinese to develop something like the Su-34 by themselves.
Yes, the H-6s (post(#10) (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2326) are now being given 2 extra missile pylons. As for the Su-34, it may prove to be a good choice for a carrier based strike fighter, and they may buy and/or produce some of them. The PLAAF/AN will be watching their performance in the Russian AF (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754914/posts).

Introduction of Su-34 will create export potential. (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060323/44703617.html)
Actualy, the naval variant, The Su-32FN.. a shore based long range maritime strike fighter ..is similar but features a maritime search radar, sonobuoy launcher, MAD, laser rangefinder, wingtip ECM pods and seven LCD screen EFIS cockpit. ..Su-32"FN" has been characterized by Sukhoi as a "specialized strike fighter" and "a reliable guardian of sea borders". It would be, according to Western terminology, a "missionized reconnaissance-maritime-strike platform" intended for around the clock operations to search for, detect, classify, and then destroy, if necessary, waterborne or submarine targets. It is boldly advertised as the potential successor to the Su-24, F-111, S-3A, RF-4E, EF-111A, A-6E, EA-6A, Tornado GR4, and the F-15E. And guess what, on the brute force merits as a platform, it definitely might be.
It all began around 1990 when the unique side-by-side Su-27"IB" was developed at the insistence of Viktor Pugachev, the famous Sukhoi Test Pilot, who at that time was tasked with coming up with a safe and reliable way to teach pilots how to come aboard the new carrier Knuznetzov. ..The Su-32"FN" has 12 armament/store stations and can carry the entire inventory of standoff weapons as well as up to four air-to-air missiles. The total weight for armament comes out to around 8,000 kg (17,600 lbs) with a flight range of around 4,000 km (2,160 nm), increased up to 7,000 km (3,777 nm) with in-flight refueling. It is noteworthy to mention that the Su-32"FN" can carry and employ the UPAZ air refueling store, so one Su-32 could refuel from another. External wing-tip mounted Sorbtsya ECM pods can also be carried. ..The Su-32"FN" is fitted with the "Sea Snake" avionics suite optimized for surface search, anti-surface warfare, mine-detection, reconnaissance, and anti-submarine warfare. The active radar is designed to ensure detection of waterborne targets and submarine wake trails within a dispersion area of more than 3,000 sq.-meters from 150 km range at high altitude. The "Sea Snake" is also capable of detecting airborne targets, including small ones, low over the sea out to 200 to 250 kilometers. The "FN" is equipped with an integrated GLOSNOSS/GPS navigation and with its secure datalink can serve as a search-and-rescue coordinator or a maritime environment monitor. ..In the tunnel under the fuselage between the two engine "pods", there are two tandem hardpoints designed to accept the extra-large anti-ship and air-to-surface munitions. The blended nose has been extended to accept a multi-purpose radar antenna. ..The Su-32"FN" remains perhaps the most flexible Sukhoi Flanker platform. It has the power and size to be converted to almost any role imaginable. As a platform it can go slow, fast, high, and low. It maneuvers like a small fighter plane, yet can carry cruise missiles made for bombers. It has range and load capacity superior to a Strike Eagle. The crew station is large and roomy with enough avionics volume to fit any Western or Russian weapon system. A crew member can fly, get up to cook dinner, visit the bathroom, and then stretch out for a nap, all while his buddy is pulling 7.0 G's.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/su32fn-01.htm

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-30.htm

Since it already exists, with some further mods it could be made carrier capable, IMO.

[Chengdu J-10]

Yes, the H-6s (post(#10) (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2326) are now being given 2 extra missile pylons. As for the Su-34, it may prove to be a good choice for a carrier based strike fighter, and they may buy and/or produce some of them. The PLAAF/AN will be watching their performance in the Russian AF (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754914/posts).

Introduction of Su-34 will create export potential. (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060323/44703617.html)
Actualy, the naval variant,
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/su32fn-01.htm

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-30.htm

Since it already exists, with some further mods it could be made carrier capable, IMO.
I know that they put 2 extra missle pylons on the H-6 already but I was trying to say is that they should put further missile pylons on the H-6 by increasing the max payload capability on the H-6. Increasing the engine power of the 2 turbojets on the H-6 and modifying the airframe a bit.

[BLUEJACKET]

That may be pushing the envelope too much- every design has its limitations, and you can modify it only so much. Since they are wishing to have strategic AF, it would make more sense to add 2 more engines at the wingroots & enlarge the airframe - it may resemble the Soviet M-4 strategic bomber (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/m-4.htm) which Russia may or may not sell to the PRC-see my post #24 (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2504&page=2).
http://legion.wplus.net/guide/air/b/3md-4.jpg

China has unsuccessfully sought an H-6 replacement for decades. Its attempts in the mid-1990s to buy Russian Tu-22 Backfire bombers failed. Medium-range bombers, like the Chinese H-7 or the Russian Su-32/34, have been considered, but their shorter ranges and smaller payloads make a [strategic] nuclear role doubtful. A more likely choice for the nuclear strike mission may be the Russian Su-30, which has a range, weapon load, and maximum ceiling similar to the H-6. Russia has delivered about 80 of the two-seater, fighter-bomber Su-30MKKs to China so far. In early 2003, China signed a contract for delivery of Su-30 upgrades, the Su-30MK2 and Su-30MK3.
http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.php?art_ofn=nd03norris

[Deino]

Just found at the Key-forum posted by Pinko !!!!

While CAC may steal the limelight with the declassification of its J-10 fighter, the SAC certainly wants to gain back some points by revealing its latest J11B heavy fighter with 2 PL-12 ARH MRAAM to the public.


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/Military_Pictures/J11BwithPL12.jpg

[crobato]

You can see the really thick engine nacelles here.

The one thing that distresses about this plane is that they have gone with a copy of the L05 Beryoza RWR or stuck with the original. Either way it does not look that much better in terms of passive sensor capabilities over the original Su-27. This RWR is the bladed structure near the engine intake. The Su-30MKK has gone into a more advanced RWR than this one, which dates back to the original Su-27.

Otherwise, a very cool pic, the best shot of the J-11B prototype yet, though I prefer to see one in a more complete paint finish. Personally I wonder how much the J-10 threatens the J-11B program. If those performance claims are valid, I have a hard time seeing why they should continue the program for other than nontactical reasons.

[mehdi]

Crobato I was thinking that this J-11B was only made for some basic Integration of electronics sensors. Just like the J-10 the future versions of the J-11B will surely have more advanced electronics plus the new WS-10A engine and I look forward to that.

[maglomanic]

You can see the really thick engine nacelles here.

The one thing that distresses about this plane is that they have gone with a copy of the L05 Beryoza RWR or stuck with the original. Either way it does not look that much better in terms of passive sensor capabilities over the original Su-27. This RWR is the bladed structure near the engine intake. The Su-30MKK has gone into a more advanced RWR than this one, which dates back to the original Su-27.



This MKK picture shows the same bladed structures near tail (that is if i understood you correct about the location and this picture is indeed MKK).

Still not sure how to identify the various RWR.

[crobato]

I am not talking about that one. I am talking about the structures near the engine intake. In the MKK, the structures are not there as the RWRs are moved into the wings.

No way of knowing if the RWR inside the bladed structures are the same on the J-11B as they are on the Su-27SK. The RWR used on the J-10 looks like it could fit inside too.

[maglomanic]

I am not talking about that one. I am talking about the structures near the engine intake. In the MKK, the structures are not there as the RWRs are moved into the wings.

No way of knowing if the RWR inside the bladed structures are the same on the J-11B as they are on the Su-27SK. The RWR used on the J-10 looks like it could fit inside too.
Really dumb of me ...you were talking about the engine intake.....


But can you exactly point the structures(or just circle em on J-11B picture).. i am still not sure (call me slow :) )

Thanks

[crobato]

Its not clear in this pic because someone pasted their digital logos over the pic right over the area. But if you need to know, it is on the upper right corner of the fourth character. In other pictures of this plane it is much clearer. This is the fin like structure you see on the side of the engine intake. You can see it with every Su-27SK/UBK and J-11.

[maglomanic]

Its not clear in this pic because someone pasted their digital logos over the pic right over the area. But if you need to know, it is on the upper right corner of the fourth character. In other pictures of this plane it is much clearer. This is the fin like structure you see on the side of the engine intake. You can see it with every Su-27SK/UBK and J-11.

Got it!
Thanks dude.

[mehdi]

The Chinese-built J-11B Fighter is outfitted with WS-10A Engine, confirmed by the WS-10A “Taihang” chief engineer Mr Zhang.:china:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs

[challenge]

The Chinese-built J-11B Fighter is outfitted with WS-10A Engine, confirmed by the WS-10A “Taihang” chief engineer Mr Zhang.:china:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs

There's report of further development of J-11B- a J-11C variant.
J-11B uses locally design avionic,except the engine AL-31F,But J-11C further development of J-11B,uses all Chinese avionic and engine.
Speaking of stealth, I recall a chinese aviation magazine report that russia is offering improve SU-27Sk-SKm version with one meter RCS. down from the original 5 meter RCS.

[mehdi]

This may be I just said may be the J-11B with WS-10A engines. I dnt know but the engines at the back dnt seem to be the AL-31F. Take a careful look at the engine. If it's not that then delete the post.:confused:

[tphuang]

wow, I just found a bunch of newly posted J-11B pictures. Just a note, can someone with a better eye determine whether or not the last picture shows J-11B using WS-10A engines?
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7798/j11bjan8az5.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7396/j11bjan82hn4.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7213/j11bjan83wu0.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/555/j11bjan85io6.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5672/j11bjan86hd6.jpg

[mehdi]

Thanks mod anyway the J-11 pics seem to pe pouring out of nowhere !!! Is there any competition against the J-10?

[crobato]

The true test for the J-11B is to against the J-10s in mock exercises under varied conditions. That's the obvious thing for the PLAAF to do.

Regardless, one also has to see that the J-11B has one form of captive market sewn up, and that is the upgrade of the existing J-11 and Su-27 planes. There is no need to change the engines on these planes however, so at least you can save on the cost and allot the quota of WS-10A to newly build J-11s or J-10s. But you can upgrade the avionics and radars on the old planes to make them competitive.

[crobato]

歼10＋SU27＋SU30＋歼11＋飞豹II……已经不下400架了～


可以排进前10名了吧？？
【兵人】于2007-01-10


共军现有7个J11/Su27团 四个19架的Su30团和一个24架的Su30团 包子A大概有两个满编团 就是棍子的数量不知道
【羊肉烩面】2007-01-10

1S1T 2S6T 6S16T 7S19T 14S40T 19S55T 33S98T
【羊肉烩面】2007-01-10

14是最后一个换装的 131和8估计满编了 6S 7S估计可能性不大吧 毕竟不是重点方向 俺倒是觉得现在飞7E的14S42T很有希望
【羊肉烩面】2007

Got this in the WMF.

http://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/04/32158.html

Numbers represent division and regiments of J-11 and Su-27

1st Division 1st Regiment
2nd Division 6th Regiment
6th Division 16th Regiment
7th Division 19th Regiment
14th Division 40th Regiment
19th Division 55th Regiment
33th Division 98th Regiment

[Totoro]

So, 7 regiments times 24 planes in a regiment - that's some 168 planes, no? Too few if all the ubk models are included in the regiments, but if they're not, (though it's been said they are) then it shows j11 production has went along nicely past the reported 100-105 units.

[bd popeye]

This may be I just said may be the J-11B with WS-10A engines. I dnt know but the engines at the back dnt seem to be the AL-31F. Take a careful look at the engine. If it's not that then delete the post.:confused:

Is this aircraft taking off or landing? If it's taking off why are its flaps down? They should be up. If it is landing>> why is it at Full afterburner. Stage 5 as we use to say in the USN. I summize that this picture is a J-11 landing with the engines PSed to appear to be in full afterburner.

Just my opinion.

[Scratch]

Is this aircraft taking off or landing? If it's taking off why are its flaps down? They should be up. If it is landing>> why is it at Full afterburner. Stage 5 as we use to say in the USN. I summize that this picture is a J-11 landing with the engines PSed to appear to be in full afterburner.

Just my opinion.

Well, I'm sure it's taking off. Now I'm really suprised. Do US aircraft take off from carriers with retracted flaps?? They should be down during take off and landing, since this happens at very low speeds were those fighter airfoils, wich are designed for high-speeds, give little lift. The flaps down increase the airfoil surface, thus giving greater lift.

Of course it also increases drag, could this be the reason why USN aircraft depart with flaps up? Though I can't really imagine they are doing it. Perhaps because they already have some feet of air under the wing when leaving the deck, while aircraft taking off from land have not.

[bd popeye]

Well, I'm sure it's taking off. Now I'm really suprised. Do US aircraft take off from carriers with retracted flaps?? They should be down during take off and landing, since this happens at very low speeds were those fighter airfoils, wich are designed for high-speeds, give little lift. The flaps down increase the airfoil surface, thus giving greater lift.


You are correct..:( My bad...I goofed. and I should know better. I even looked it up to learn something I long forgot...

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/flap.html

Back to the picture. When I first looked at it the angle it was taking off just did not look righ. It looked more like a naval fighter rather than a air force craft. In the US generally navy fighters take off at such a steep angle.

[Scratch]

I think this is not an all so steep angle, the long tail of the Flankers make take off angles look rather steep, since they come close to the ground even at lower angels. That's an imperssion I got.
Furthermore, if my eyes don't cheat me, this aircraft carries no ordnance. So perhaps that sortie is just about AHC (aircraft handling characteristics). See what's possible. Or the pilot is just trying to have some fun.

[crobato]

So, 7 regiments times 24 planes in a regiment - that's some 168 planes, no? Too few if all the ubk models are included in the regiments, but if they're not, (though it's been said they are) then it shows j11 production has went along nicely past the reported 100-105 units.

That still includes 76 Su-27SKs and UBKs plus the J-11s. At least when these regs are formed, the older planes are still there (minus a few attritions of course).

Though I have to say, that some of the regs there appear to have as much as 32 aircraft. For example, when the regiment on the 33rd Div got their Su-27UBKs, they got all 28 of them, numbered from 49 to 76. Then they got four J-11s on top of that, all serialed to 80. Now some of the UBKs may have been parceled to other regiments, but in their place, they got more J-11s are replacements.

The 1st Regiment and the 19th Regiment both have UBKs that are numbered 32. One cannot say that the original is UBK no. 32 originally from the 6th Regiment 2nd Division, as two planes with the same unit no. to appear in both squads. For that matter, both units have UBKs that are numbered 28 to 32, and therefore cannot be originals from the 2nd Divison, since some of these UBKs are the new types that were parceled out from the 33rd. So the 32 is the regiment unit no. not the no. the Sukhoi factory gave in the early batches. That aligns to about 32 aircraft on these regiments.

In addition, the sighting of J-11 no. 30 with the 55th Regiment, 19th Division, also suggests the unit has 30+ aircraft.

So if you think about it, if all 7 regiments actually has 32 aircraft, that amounts to 224 planes, and that means at least 148 J-11s were made minus the original SK/UBKs.

Realistically, let's say 5 of the regiments have 32 aircraft, these ones from the 1st, 2nd, 7th, 19th and 33rd. Pls 2 regiments with 24 aircraft, you get 208. Less 76 you still get 132 J-11s. Eventually though, the other two regiments should be filling up also.

All this points out is that after that after the 105 kits, China continues to build J-11s that were kitless, though the components are now obtained seperately and not packaged with the kit. This is consistent with the report that China ordered engines seperately for J-11 construction, when previously, the engines should be packaged with the kits. I call the kitless J-11s the J-11As, and I believe they have a darker paint job like J-11 30 of the 19the 19th Division.

In a sense, I think the J-11As were testing the completely Chinese made airframes, as opposed to the airframes that were supplied from the Russian kits. I have a theory that these aircraft will also be upgraded to J-11B standards avionically minus engine, their replaced components be used as spares.

[kickars]

I can't quite understand J-11B. Can I say J-11B is a single-seater verson of Su-30MK2? Or is it just a simply upgraded J-11? But isn't Su30 a two-seater verson of upgraded Su-27(J-11)? Really confused now.

[Totoro]

J11B is, or will be, fully domestic plane. That's why its being developed. It will probably start off not much more capable than su30, but it will be easier to upgrade it, unlike costly modernization russian planes would have to undergo. It is basically an investment into the future.

[Chengdu J-10]

J-11B a single seater upgraded from a J-11, license production of the Russia Su-27SK. The J-11B is either fully or mostly made from domestic Chinese parts enhancing the original J-11 basic license production of the Su-27SK to a more multi-role fighter through Chinese technology upgrades possibly designated as the J-11B. Most significant upgrades or domestic insertions that sets it apart from the basic J-11 would be replacing the Russia AL-31F turbofans to the Chinese WS-10A turbofans with increased thrust from 122.8kN to 129.4kN. And replacing the Russian NIIP N001 radar with Chinese Shedian-10 and finally the Russian R-77 AAM's with Chinese SD-10 AAM's. Now the original J-11 (Su-27) is a single seater and according to some articles so is the J-11B, and the Su-30MKK series are two seaters. If the single seater of the J-11B is true is basically and technological upgraded version of the the Su-27SK with near or full Chinese technology. Though the J-11B will have increased manuverability over the basic J-11, and can play more roles than the J-11 of being air superiority.

With the last post if their are any errors with the information feel free to correct or discuss. Though I do think that the J-11B will or has incorporated TVC turbofans engines.

[tphuang]

J-11B a single seater upgraded from a J-11, license production of the Russia Su-27SK. The J-11B is either fully or mostly made from domestic Chinese parts enhancing the original J-11 basic license production of the Su-27SK to a more multi-role fighter through Chinese technology upgrades possibly designated as the J-11B. Most significant upgrades or domestic insertions that sets it apart from the basic J-11 would be replacing the Russia AL-31F turbofans to the Chinese WS-10A turbofans with increased thrust from 122.8kN to 129.4kN. And replacing the Russian NIIP N001 radar with Chinese Shedian-10 and finally the Russian R-77 AAM's with Chinese SD-10 AAM's. Now the original J-11 (Su-27) is a single seater and according to some articles so is the J-11B, and the Su-30MKK series are two seaters. If the single seater of the J-11B is true is basically and technological upgraded version of the the Su-27SK with near or full Chinese technology. Though the J-11B will have increased manuverability over the basic J-11, and can play more roles than the J-11 of being air superiority.

With the last post if their are any errors with the information feel free to correct or discuss. Though I do think that the J-11B will or has incorporated TVC turbofans engines.

hmm, let's not go that far with the engine yet. Yes, WS-10A is an important step considering that its basic performance is suppose to match that of F110-129, but that doesn't mean we can just make extremely high expectation of it. For example, it currently doesn't even have FADEC. It still uses hybird control system, even though China has developed FADEC. As for TVC, again it's something that hasn't been incorporated yet. I'm far more interested in the next generation of WS-10 with FADEC and thrust of 155kN.

[crobato]

J-11B a single seater upgraded from a J-11, license production of the Russia Su-27SK. The J-11B is either fully or mostly made from domestic Chinese parts enhancing the original J-11 basic license production of the Su-27SK to a more multi-role fighter through Chinese technology upgrades possibly designated as the J-11B. Most significant upgrades or domestic insertions that sets it apart from the basic J-11 would be replacing the Russia AL-31F turbofans to the Chinese WS-10A turbofans with increased thrust from 122.8kN to 129.4kN. And replacing the Russian NIIP N001 radar with Chinese Shedian-10 and finally the Russian R-77 AAM's with Chinese SD-10 AAM's. Now the original J-11 (Su-27) is a single seater and according to some articles so is the J-11B, and the Su-30MKK series are two seaters. If the single seater of the J-11B is true is basically and technological upgraded version of the the Su-27SK with near or full Chinese technology. Though the J-11B will have increased manuverability over the basic J-11, and can play more roles than the J-11 of being air superiority.

With the last post if their are any errors with the information feel free to correct or discuss. Though I do think that the J-11B will or has incorporated TVC turbofans engines.

I wish people would stop calling the radar Shedian 10. Shedian 10 is the name for SD-10 and that's the missile.

I think the J-11B performs somewhere between the Su-30MKK and the Su-35. Faster with more thrust, but not without the maneuverbility tidbits of the Su-35 like canards. Sensor awareness/radar/avionics is about equal to better of the Su-30MKK/MK2. If the Russians wanted a billion just to license the Su-30MKK for production in China, that billion would have been better spent developing the J-11B further.

In any case, I think the Type 149X series is better than what the MKK/MK2 has now, perhaps able to give the Zhuk MSE of the MK3 a run for it, but not better than BARS or IRBIS. But its all in increments and not significant.

But its all better for the Chinese industry and economy. Means money spent on Chinese jobs and companies. It means controlling the architecture so its good for the Chinese munitions industry, and not having to import anything from Russian pods to Russian PGMs.

The importance is not about sheer aircraft performance, but the economic and technological strategic positioning.

I kind of expect that the first J-11B regiment should go IOC within the year and I wonder if individual examples have been seeded on various regiments for testing and try outs.

[Scratch]

I kind of expect that the first J-11B regiment should go IOC within the year ...

Can somebody predict wich regiment (and where it's placed) will be the one to initially introduce serial produced J-11Bs?

[Deino]

:rofl:

http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-11B_%2B_J-8F_2x.jpg

[Pointblank]

:rofl:

http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-11B_%2B_J-8F_2x.jpg

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

[Deino]

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

Yes, but if You look closely, You can notice these small "stripes" on the sides of the black radome similar to the one on the latest J-8H/F and J-10 ... maybe crobato can tell You more about !

Deino

[speculator]

According to many chinese sources, the J-11B is already out and is serving with the first air devision？ (Tphuang can help me here: what is the translation of 师？）:D
the aircraft also looks very new and does not have any markings. as Deino said, the stripes on the radome proves thats its not a J-11 or a Su-27

[crobato]

I see a pair of J-7's as well, in the back, along with a pair of J-8's. I don't think that we can call that Flanker a J-11B, we only see the first half of it.

Its a J-11B for sure. No Flanker has a black nose with static strips. Black nose with static strips is now a new standard with the PLAAF. Somehow every plane that has a NRIET KLJ series radar has this radome as part of their requirement, suggesting the material is frequency selective and honed with the radar's frequencies. Of course, static strips is a Western invention, you see that on anything from F-16s to civil airliners. They are meant for protection against cloud lightning.

The J-8s there are J-8Fs with similar KLJ series radars and also have the black radomes. Likewise, check every picture of the J-10 and FC-1, and you see the same thing.

The only new planes without the black radomes are the JH-7A, which uses the Leihua JL-10A radar, and the J-7G. Although the plane may have tested (and reported) to have used the KLJ-6E, it is possible that the contract was won by another radar called SY-80, which have been shown in defense expos.

I mentioned before that NRIET developed what appears to be a modular architecture fire control radar, the idea from Israel's ELTA and Russia's Zhuk series. You design one basic member of the family, and then by altering certain components of the design, like a smaller or larger antenna, you can fit the same basic design of radar on different aircraft. Thus the radars from the FC-1 to the J-11B are all related. The basic radar itself was perfected early on the J-8IIs. That is why China is able to so quickly fit these radars on a variety of aircraft. The Russians thought that developing a radar and FCS system for the J-11 would have taken ten years---it was much less than that.

Because of the modularity approach on the radar and FCS, the same design would be easier to turn into a PESA or AESA later on. New antenna, alterations on the software and components, without building a radar and FCS system from scratch.

[crobato]

According to many chinese sources, the J-11B is already out and is serving with the first air devision？ (Tphuang can help me here: what is the translation of 师？）:D
the aircraft also looks very new and does not have any markings. as Deino said, the stripes on the radome proves thats its not a J-11 or a Su-27

The character means "teacher" but in this sense, it means division.

If they are serving with the 1st Division, either the 1st Regiment has to pass their J-11s to someone else, or the 2nd Regiment has to pass their J-8Fs to someone else. 3rd Regiment, accoring to rumors, may be getting J-10s.

The pic of the J-11B there is accompanied by J-8Fs, but I believe this to be a test regiment of the CFTC. The J-8Fs there, with serials 60093 and 60094, are the ones used to test the LS-6 glide bomb.

I do believe that if J-11B goes IOC, it would have to be the 1st Regiment of the 1st Division, as the 1st Division, stationed in Shenyang MR and the closest to the factory, is the one that gets the first and latest Shenyang goods. The 1st Division has the first all J-11 regiment (although 2nd Division recieved some seed J-11s first), and the first all J-8F regiment, all Shenyang AC's products. Conservatively, its best to try the J-11B on a unit that already has the prior experience with J-11s. The best way to do this is seed some J-11Bs into the existing regiment first, then work out the problems and the details the IOC would expose. Then gradually convert the entire regiment to J-11B and the older J-11s are relocated elsewhere.

Now I am looking for is the J-11S (two seat J-11).

[Chengdu J-10]

hmm, let's not go that far with the engine yet. Yes, WS-10A is an important step considering that its basic performance is suppose to match that of F110-129, but that doesn't mean we can just make extremely high expectation of it. For example, it currently doesn't even have FADEC. It still uses hybird control system, even though China has developed FADEC. As for TVC, again it's something that hasn't been incorporated yet. I'm far more interested in the next generation of WS-10 with FADEC and thrust of 155kN.
I think you have accidentally misunderstood what was in the post. The "most" significant not saying it has but the most significant change from the J-11 "would" be having WS-10A turbofans fitted on the J-11B. Hybird control system for the engines yes and no. Speculated articles that personally don't seem reliable indicates China has incorporated some of its WS-10A with ADEC. As for TVC, next major step China should look into. Though we can't expect to highly, but we can at least logically and mathematically assume the engine is more capable than the AL-31 and in the class of F110-129 engines performance. All in all one thing is for certain it is more capable than the existing AL-31 turbofan engines equipped on the Su-27, Su-30, J-11, J-10. Though mass production of these WS-10A engines don't seem to be anytime time soon. Small production is set though.

[speculator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs
A great video from the main engineer of the Taihang ws-10a engine. In the first bits of he, he blabs on about how important the project was to him and how he abandoned his wife and kids just for it etc etc..... But it got interesting from the middle onwards. where he said that 2 years ago, a serious technical malfunction happened during a test, which shows that this engine was in its final design stages >2 years ago and the development could have been slowed down by that technical malfunction. It also showed pictures of the J-11B in its yellow primer, which if anyone remembers, was posted on the WZ-10 thread (about 2 years) a while ago, because it showed a WZ-10 in the background. Now we know for certain that that aircraft IS the J-11A and it was in its final test stages 2 years ago.

Does anyone know if the WS-10a is TVC capable? because all of the pics i saw where not all of the same engine.

[speculator]

Update : Some pics:

1024

1025
WS-10a nozzles, do they look TVC capable?

[Deino]

Update : Some pics: WS-10a nozzles, do they look TVC capable?

Hmmm :confused: ... looks like a standard Su-27 with its dark-grey colour ... and for me nothing special about these nozzles ! ... I would say just a AL-31F !

.. just my 2 cents !

Deino

[speculator]

Hmmm :confused: ... looks like a standard Su-27 with its dark-grey colour ... and for me nothing special about these nozzles ! ... I would say just a AL-31F !

.. just my 2 cents !

Deino

look close enough and you would find the 'strips' on the radome.

[jackbh]

Report Post
Re: China Flanker thread - 22 Hours Ago
Quote:

I think you have accidentally misunderstood what was in the post. The "most" significant not saying it has but the most significant change from the J-11 "would" be having WS-10A turbofans fitted on the J-11B. Hybird control system for the engines yes and no. Speculated articles that personally don't seem reliable indicates China has incorporated some of its WS-10A with ADEC. As for TVC, next major step China should look into. Though we can't expect to highly, but we can at least logically and mathematically assume the engine is more capable than the AL-31 and in the class of F110-129 engines performance. All in all one thing is for certain it is more capable than the existing AL-31 turbofan engines equipped on the Su-27, Su-30, J-11, J-10. Though mass production of these WS-10A engines don't seem to be anytime time soon. Small production is set though.

If what you say it's true about the WS-10A engine having better performance than the AL-31s fitted on those planes you mentioned, what are some of the performance rating compared to the Russian engine such as thrust?

[Chengdu J-10]

If what you say it's true about the WS-10A engine having better performance than the AL-31s fitted on those planes you mentioned, what are some of the performance rating compared to the Russian engine such as thrust?
One Russian AL-31 on the PLAAF Su-27, Su-30, J-11, J-10 is rated at 123kN afterburner (12, 519kg), 89.43kN dry thrust (8, 101kg) and the WS-10A is rated at 129.45kN afterburner (13, 200kg), 89.17kN dry thrust (9, 095kg).

[crobato]

The stage appears set now. Wonder who will win a mock wargame, J-11B or J-10.

[Deino]

look close enough and you would find the 'strips' on the radome.

The picture abouve: YES .... but for the second one I don't know as the nozzle seems just like a standard AL-31 nozzle and not leke the one we have seen on the WS-10 testbed ! :confused:

Deino

[Dongfeng]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

[Pointblank]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

I'll have to agree. I had some doubts myself and I want to see a picture of the rear of the aircraft in good detail.

[crobato]

Looking at nozzles from a distance (or directly to the center) is not a very good way to tell engines. Even though you can tell the nozzles of PW F100 powered vs. GE F110 powered F-16s when you're that close, from a distance, you just can't tell it. The GE powered planes also has a larger intake duct, but once you put some distance from the plane, its really hard to tell and not without a PW powered plane for a side by side comparison.

[SteelBird]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.

[crobato]

WS-10 corresponds to the F100 220E, while WS-10A corresponds to -229. The A is more powerful at 29,000lbs of thrust, whle the WS-10 is only 24,000 to 25,000lbs of thrust. The AL-31FN is 27,500lbs. WS-10 is only as strong as what the Mirage 2000s and F-16As currently have.

The way I see it, the interview only justifies a decision made over 10 years ago, and little what may come in store this year.

As an engine family, I would think that the WS-10B would be 32,000lbs of thrust.

[crobato]

I have been studying the 'J-11B photos' released on Internet recently.

I have a theory: the aircraft shown in the photo may not be J-11B, it is a variant fitted with a Chinese-made avionics, but still with old AL-31F engine.

So far I haven't heard any concrete evidence showing aircraft powered by WS-10A is in service. From the photo we can see this new J-11 variant is already in operational service, therefore it may still be fitted with AL-31F.

Still, a big step forward for the aircraft to be able to fire PL-12 and PL-8

There are certain advantages not to use the WS-10A at all. First the advantage of using a local engine is kind of moot, and rather symbolic. Only to say it's Made in China and tactically, it has no significance. Developing an indigenous engine comes in handy when you are facing a possible boycott from your suppliers. But the opposite is in this case, since your supplier is dying to sell you, willing to give you good prices and the best technology.

Second, to introduce WS-10A means an entirely new system of logistical infrastructure has to be introduced for this engine. That means training of technicians, a new maintenance regimen, inventory of parts, distribution system and so on. Whereas for the AL-31F, you alrready have such a structure. In the end, its only more inconvenient for the PLAAF.

Third. Concept of WS-10 arose in the eighties when China and the Soviet Union is still in a faceoff. Even then after that China still distrusts Russia and wonders if a long term alliance or relationship can be maintained as both do not trust each other. So if Russia happens to embargo China, China can fully turn both J-11 and J-10 indigenous and not be reliant on Russia. However, in 2006, the geopolitics have changed, their relationship has more than sustained into an alliance. At the same time, China is in need now of Russia's oil and mineral resources. and needs to be in the good side of Putin. Also helps to release those RD-93s for Pakistan second export. But nonetheless, purchases from Russia also serve as a political tool, they can dual role as cards to help get better access to Siberian resources.

[tphuang]

This guy 李中华 has pretty much become a celebrity in China as one of the main test pilots for J-10 and other fighters
an interview with him
http://military.people.com.cn/GB/8221/71065/76954/76955/5281878.html
http://military.people.com.cn/GB/42967/5281879.html

李中华：每次受领一个新的任务，试飞某型新武器系统之前，我都会在相当长的一段时间，做大量的准备，把有关 的资料看得很透。遇到一些疑难问题，我都要把它列出来，找工业部门的工程师、专家请教，和他们讨论。最近我 们完成了两项重要设备的试飞，一个是衍射平显，一个是光电雷达，在试飞过程中，我就学到了很多 新东西。

This part is interesting, he mentions that they recently completed test flights with two important system, one is HUD diffraction (widescreen HUD?) and IRST. Not sure if he is talking about testing these with J-11B or J-10. But if it's the latter, that would be a confirmation that J-10 is equipping with IRST.

[Chengdu J-10]

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.
This is one reason why their is still tension between China and Japan. While China wants to have peace with Japan, Japan just goes and pisses China off by saying to the EU constantly not to lift the embargo as the EU is starting to decide if or if not. This has really stirred up China, if Japan just shuts up it it would be more friendly with China. As soon as the EU is thinking of lifting up Japan and US comes in and shuts the lid from opening.

Anyway sorry to go off the topic. Yes I watch that show called Phoenix TV it is on every Wednesday night at our location, though I cannot quite fully understand as it speaks Mandarin though I can pick up some words due to it is sort of simular to Cantonese which I understand. To add to your list there are several different prototypes with the WS-10 with TVC experiments, which he mentioned really briefly. Sorry 2D TVC not 3D. Some of the footage showing the J-10 on Phoenix TV is not present on You tube or the ones shown on Sinodefence. It shows a bit more extra of the J-10, more close ups.

[crobato]

This guy 李中华 has pretty much become a celebrity in China as one of the main test pilots for J-10 and other fighters
an interview with him
http://military.people.com.cn/GB/8221/71065/76954/76955/5281878.html
http://military.people.com.cn/GB/42967/5281879.html

This part is interesting, he mentions that they recently completed test flights with two important system, one is HUD diffraction (widescreen HUD?) and IRST. Not sure if he is talking about testing these with J-11B or J-10. But if it's the latter, that would be a confirmation that J-10 is equipping with IRST.

It kind of sounds like the J-11B, since said pilot is the guy also seen in the recent J-11B pics. And that's the plane with the widescreen HUD and apparently a Chinese designed IRST that has replaced the one on the Su-27.

[Dongfeng]

Hi DongFeng

I'm not sure if you know Chinese, but I hope you do. A TV show on Phoenix TV last night called 軍事觀察室 (Military Observasion Room) that taken charged by a guy called 馬鼎勝. He has mentioned about 4 points that I noticed in his TV program:

1). the WS-10 (I was curious that he didn't mention about the "A" that we are always talking about) he said the WS-10 is inferior compared to AL-31 in some aspects such as its starting time that it take 40 seconds longer to start a WS-10 than the AL-31. And acceleration also take longer time which is a real weak point in real combat.
2). J-10 has a potential export market up 1200 planes.
3). When some one asked him that recently Internet speculation said that a mockup excercise hold between the US and China that the Chinese J-8s has shot down on F-22, is it possible? He said, if the excercise is hold in China's mainland, it is possible. Because China can use all resource it has to find and track the Raptor, so, it's not impossible for the J-8 to shoot down the Raptor.
4). In recently visit to Europe, the Japanese Prime Minister has requested the EU again and again not to lift the military embargo against China.


Yes, I can read and speak Chinese as I'm a Chinese. However, i don't have access to Phoenix Satellite Tv so didn't watch the programme.

It now appears that there is WS-10 and there is WS-10A. A reported posted on Chinese Internet yesterday confirmed that among the seven J-10 prototypes, the first five are actually powered by indigenous WS-10 while only the 6th and 7th are powered by AL-31F. This is very shocking since we all thought that without AL-31F the J-10 wouldn't even fly! My guess is that WS-10 is not entirely succssful so they have to switch to AL-31F on production variant.

I am watching the development of the situation closely but at the moment it is very difficult to make sense to lots of things.

[speculator]

Maybe this will clear up the confusion a bit:
from the main engineer of the taihang ws-10a,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs

[kickars]

Yes, I can read and speak Chinese as I'm a Chinese. However, i don't have access to Phoenix Satellite Tv so didn't watch the programme.

It now appears that there is WS-10 and there is WS-10A. A reported posted on Chinese Internet yesterday confirmed that among the seven J-10 prototypes, the first five are actually powered by indigenous WS-10 while only the 6th and 7th are powered by AL-31F. This is very shocking since we all thought that without AL-31F the J-10 wouldn't even fly! My guess is that WS-10 is not entirely succssful so they have to switch to AL-31F on production variant.

I am watching the development of the situation closely but at the moment it is very difficult to make sense to lots of things.

Hi Dongfeng, I live in the UK as well. And I don't have Sky, either. But you can download the programme from http://lib.verycd.com/2005/10/30/0000072052.html. It's been uploaded every week.

[Dongfeng]

Hi Dongfeng, I live in the UK as well. And I don't have Sky, either. But you can download the programme from http://lib.verycd.com/2005/10/30/0000072052.html. It's been uploaded every week.

Thank you for the link.

Yeah, Sky is too expensive and I have little time to watch TV anyway.

By the way, I compare the engine nuzzle of the J-10 prototype (in dark blue painting) and that of the production variant today, and they do look slightly different. According to the internet report, the AL-31F is actually slightly smaller than the WS-10. Therefore the production variant J-10 is slimmer than the first five prototype.

[crobato]

Yes, I can read and speak Chinese as I'm a Chinese. However, i don't have access to Phoenix Satellite Tv so didn't watch the programme.

It now appears that there is WS-10 and there is WS-10A. A reported posted on Chinese Internet yesterday confirmed that among the seven J-10 prototypes, the first five are actually powered by indigenous WS-10 while only the 6th and 7th are powered by AL-31F. This is very shocking since we all thought that without AL-31F the J-10 wouldn't even fly! My guess is that WS-10 is not entirely succssful so they have to switch to AL-31F on production variant.

I am watching the development of the situation closely but at the moment it is very difficult to make sense to lots of things.

It is a shock to me too. The first five are

J-10 01
1002
1003
1004
1005

All by the way still flying.

However, I won't say the engine is not a technical success, and certainly its not a failure in reliability. The J-10 01 used up its airframe life and that is at least 4000 flight hours.

The planes have a slightly thicker silver ring than the other J-10s. I thought this was a matter of a slight revision in the AL-31FN prototype vs. serial production.

And once again, there is absolutely no way you can tell the engines from the nozzles.

I would say, the WS-10 loses to the AL-31FN in sheer power, and because it spools longer. That's 24,000lbs of thrust vs. 27,500lbs of thrust. Who would you choose? Right now, you also have this choice to make, since the WS-10A is rated at 13,200kg (129kn) or 29,000lbs, but the AL-31FM1 is rated at 13,700kg (132kn) and has a TVC nozzle. You want the Hecho en Chino label in your engine, or you want the higher power.

[Chengdu J-10]

WS-10=107kN of thrust =24,000Ibs
WS-10A=129kN thrust =29,000Ibs
Further modified WS-10A increase thrust= 151kN =34,000Ibs possibly for the J-XX maybe called the WS-10B???

The WS-10A had a 5,000Ibs increase from the original WS-10 now if you follow this trend the WS-10A with increase thrust would be 29,000Ibs + 5,000Ibs=34,000Ibs.

It is possible that the WS-10 was actually near completed but then the PLAAF rejected this due to its 107kN of thrust so the next phase was the increase thrust was 129kN for the WS-10A. Now this transition and modification in looking for a more higher thrust turbofan might have caused some trouble for the production of the J-10 . So to solve this gap the PLAAF seeked the AL-31FN as a gap filler before the WS-10A could be finished. So originally the current J-10's would've been powered by the weaker WS-10 but instead the PLAAF seeked for more power so the stop gap solution for the waiting WS-10A was the AL-31FN.

Now for something else their have been reports that the WS-10A engine was undergoing further modifications and upgrades most likely would be increased thrust and TVC. This sounds like a possible candidate engine for the J-XX aircraft that the PLAAF is trying to prepare for.

[tphuang]

a new J-11B cockpit photo?
the typical 1 HUD and 3 MFDs
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9073/j11bcockpit2kg.jpg

[Jiang]

a new J-11B cockpit photo?
the typical 1 HUD and 3 MFDs
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9073/j11bcockpit2kg.jpg

Tphuang, can you tell me the what if J11b engaging Mig-29ovt. What is the J11b's chance of wining???

[Deino]

Found at CDF posted by Pinko !!

a clear shot of J11B with PL-8 AAM, note the nozzle is NOT AL31F's


Cheers, Deino


http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-11B_best_%2B_PL-8.jpg

[SteelBird]

Found at CDF posted by Pinko !!




Cheers, Deino


http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-11B_best_%2B_PL-8.jpg

I notice the two nozzles look different to each other. Could it be a testbed that had one AL-31's and one WS-10's?

[Totoro]

I don't wanna say it's not ws10a but length wise, nozzles are more-or-less similar, i measured them in photoshop. Coloring is a bitt different, true,

[crobato]

From the CDF, showing optical or thermal missile warning system.

[Kilo636]

I don't wanna say it's not ws10a but length wise, nozzles are more-or-less similar, i measured them in photoshop. Coloring is a bitt different, true,


Clearly the 2 engines on the J-11B of the pic are WS-10A. WS-10A nozzle is much shorter than AL-31F and is not difficult to distinguish between 2 of them .

[crobato]

It appears to have a thick wide outer petal on the nozzle, you can see it from the J-11B pic with the MAWS.

[maozedong]

****MOD EDIT: don't post pics that have already been posted in the very same thread and they show in the same page*******

yes, I already said Ws10 use in J-11b better than in J-10 first,because J-11b is twin engine, if one engine of the plane dosn't work, the plane ( J-11b ) still fly, may reduce the dangerous.
however WS10 is still new, put it in large amount prodution that reqire very good technical quality. I said this in J10 thread # 47 page.

[maozedong]

http://maozedong.250free.com/J-11b.jpg

says this is J-11b cockpit.

[tphuang]

http://maozedong.250free.com/J-11b.jpg

says this is J-11b cockpit.

This is not the J-11B cockpit. Most likely the back seat cockpit of some future twin-seated fighter.

I think we have J-11B cockpit photos in this thread somewhere.

And Mao, when you post pictures, please add comments as part of your post.

[tphuang]

an article on SAC, mentions that SAC's important platform development compeleted rather well, gov't is very happy. Should be talking about J-11B here.

2月5日上午，中共中央政治局常委、全国人大常委会委员长吴邦国在辽宁省委书记李克强，省长张文岳，沈阳市 市委书记陈正高，市长李英杰等领导的陪同下到中国一航沈阳飞机工业(集团)公司考察。等候在一航沈飞部总装 厂房门前的中国一航总经理林左鸣，集团公司总经理助理、一航沈飞总经理李方勇，党委书记罗阳等上前迎候吴邦 国一行。

　　在考察中，林左鸣、李方勇、罗阳分别向吴邦国详细介绍了一航沈飞科研生产情况。吴帮国对一航沈飞改革开 放和现代化建设中所取得的成绩给予了充分肯定。他说，一航沈飞的工业基础好，重点型号任务完成得好，我非常 高兴！你们不仅使空军装备有了质的提升，而且带动了航空科技产业的发展。“十一五”的工作任务很重，航空工 业是国家实现工业化的重要平台，是军民结合的战略性高技术产业。我们要把在军机研制中掌握的尖端技术应用到 民机研制上来，大力发展我们的民机制造业；要通过提高规模生产和管理水平，加快我国航空工业崛起的速度。这 就需要我们抓住难得的战略机遇期，对每一项工作都要做到精确设计，科学组织，扎实工作，再加一把劲儿，把基 础打好。

　　在研制生产现场，吴邦国认真询问了某重点型号的研制进展情况，李方勇就新机性能等情况向吴邦国作了详细 介绍。吴邦国亲切地与研制生产现场人员一一握手，感谢他们为祖国航空工业发展做出的贡献，并预祝大家在春节 来临之际节日愉快，身体健康，阖家幸福！(何堤/文 徐树华/摄)

[tphuang]

more decryptic message on China's aerospace news on the progress of SAC in 2006

HKB报道：06年是一航沈飞军鸡研制生产的关键年，转型年

某型重点型号飞鸡全部完成批产任务，为该型飞鸡的研制生产划上一个圆满句号；某两个型号飞鸡为实现设计定型 和生产交付奠定了良好基础。某新研鸡基本完成试验件的生产交付，进入组合件装配阶段；某新研鸡编制完成工艺 总体和装配协调方案，开始进入试制阶段。。。。

basically says,
one type of fighter finished mass production, this type of fighter's development and production draw a closing dot. Sounds like J-11A or maybe J-8F?
2 versions of a fighter has achieved design certification (J-11BS)and production delivery has set an excellent foundation. (J-11B and J-11BS?)
Some newly developed fighter has completed test part's production delivery, it is in the point of starting to assemble (J-11BS or J-11 naval?)
A fighter under research completed whole and parts formulation, starting to go into the prototyping stage? (4th generation fighter? UCAV?)

[crobato]

Pretty sure J-11A production ended last year. However, the lingo about "type" and "development" suggests that this particular sentence refers to the J-8F. There was a short seemingly farewell article on the J-8II on one of the government dailies recently.

The others should refer to the J-11B and J-11S. Sounds like they have begun serial production. Changing the J-8II line to a new J-11 line can boost production.

[zachjeli]

i think the PLAAF is a threat to the USAF with the new SU-27, so we need to make more F-22's to replace the 30 year old F-15. right now we can only get 183 F-22's but the air force says it needs at least 381 to fight china's SU-30,27, and J-11 fighters.

[kunmingren]

i think the PLAAF is a threat to the USAF with the new SU-27, so we need to make more F-22's to replace the 30 year old F-15. right now we can only get 183 F-22's but the air force says it needs at least 381 to fight china's SU-30,27, and J-11 fighters.


that depend on what you are going to do. If US is looking to bomb China back into the stoneage, than may be it would need 381 F-22, but if not, why having that many planes (which are ridiculously expensive, and i'd rather not pay for it unless the government actually use it on someone)

[adeptitus]

At this time it's prolly more cost-effective for the USAF to do high-low mix between F-22 and upgraded F-15's. At this point I seriously doubt the PLAAF J-11's are as advanced or battle-proven as the F-15 platform, which is being upgraded with AN/APG-63(v)3 AESA radar and JHMCS.

IMO the biggest strength of the USAF is in America's production capability. Despite all the hoopla about outsourcing manufacturing, the American defense industry can still output more advanced fighter planes than anyone else. So even if the PLAAF gains some measure of parity, the US can easily replace its losses while the PLAAF cannot.

The J-11/Su-27SK was a "stop gap" purchase, to catch up to other regional neighbors (Japan, Korea, Taiwan) and make PLAAF a more credible force. But compared to the latest western aircraft (F-15K/SG, F-16E/F), they're technically behind by quite a margin. We'll have to wait and see what the proposed upgrade (J-11B?) brings.

[Schumacher]

At this time it's prolly more cost-effective for the USAF to do high-low mix between F-22 and upgraded F-15's. At this point I seriously doubt the PLAAF J-11's are as advanced or battle-proven as the F-15 platform, which is being upgraded with AN/APG-63(v)3 AESA radar and JHMCS..........

IMO, instead of ungrading F-15, the money can be better spent on getting more F-22 even if the number is smaller than the number of F-15 to be upgraded.:off

[crobato]

It is a reasonably good upgrade, though it remains not Su-35 material. Compared to the Su-27SK, its still a big step. The radar should be definitely be better than the old one, though its no phase array or AESA. The engines make more power than the standard AL-31F but its not TVC. Biggest improvement is in the avionics, at least it does not look like something from the seventies. Probably a lot more user friendly and don't need to press a whole series of buttons to launch a missile. Cheaper perhaps. In my opinion, better than the Su-27SKM proposed for China by Sukhoi, or the Su-30MKK/MK2.

[ofone]

Hmm the J-11B is almost everything locally made, right?

It can't be much of a upgrade over what the J-11 already has. It is a step in the right direction for China's aircraft industry, though.

J-11B is better than su-27sk
and China can hardly get any more advanced fighter from russia again.

[mehdi]

So what huh ????

Do you really beleive that the Su-30MK3 is so advanced !!!

[crobato]

Su-30MK3 isn't a very advanced design either. It's the same Su-30MKK, but with a Zhuk MSE radar that's better than the improved N001VEP on the Su-30MK2. Its more like another incremental upgrade. Fundamentally, or in the technology level, it does not offer anything significant over the J-11B or the upcoming J-11BS.

[kickars]

Su-30MK3 isn't a very advanced design either. It's the same Su-30MKK, but with a Zhuk MSE radar that's better than the improved N001VEP on the Su-30MK2. Its more like another incremental upgrade. Fundamentally, or in the technology level, it does not offer anything significant over the J-11B or the upcoming J-11BS.

What's the difference between J-11B and J-11BS? When I first heard people talking about J-11BS on a Chinese forum sometime ago, I thought they meant J-11Bs. Now it looks like it's a different model to J-11B. If so, what's the upgrade?

[Scratch]

The upgrade in the J-11BS should be a second seat. It's just a two seat variant of the J-11B. If I'm not totally mistaken here.
J-11B in serial production now should let us see some fotos in the near future.
With reports of J-10s beating MKKs, these might probably focus on attack roles? Or perhaps long range interceptors?
From now on, will China develop the J-11 on it's own or upgrade them further with russian technology? (Su-35/Su-37)

[Longaxe]

As far as I can tell all the talk about J-10 beating the SU-27 variants was related to within visional range engagements. It’s not that surprising that the smaller fighter did better in a dog fight. An F-16 is better then an F-15 in a dog fight, that doesn’t mean the F-16, is going to replace the F-15. The J-11b is going to be better the J-10 in every regard expert perhaps debatable maneuverability and cost. I think it’s clear at this point that the Chinese have decided to go with a high low mix of J-10 and J-11. Now a lot of Chinese ultra nationals will tell you that twin engine J-10 or something is going to replace the J-11, but I just don’t see that happening within the next ten years. The Chinese have just gotten to the point that they are able to produce indigently 4th generation fighters. They lack the technology to product aircraft that are significantly better then the J-10 or J-11 in more then one or two areas.

[zachjeli]

that depend on what you are going to do. If US is looking to bomb China back into the stoneage, than may be it would need 381 F-22, but if not, why having that many planes (which are ridiculously expensive, and i'd rather not pay for it unless the government actually use it on someone)

that is what the u.s. air force say it needs, since more than 800 aircraft in the u.s. are grounded or under heavy flight restrictions and the 30 year old F-15 once able to fly at mach 2.5, pilots are told never to exceade mach 1.5, that is telling you something. :coffee:

[kickars]

So basicly J-11 is just Chinese assembled Su-27 (with all the Russian parts); J-11B is an upgraded Su-27/J-11 with more Chinese made parts; finally J-11BS is more like Chinese made (not just assembled) Su-30MKK (maybe more advanced). Coz at the end of the day Su-30MKK is just an upgraded Su-27 with 2-seater, right?

[zachjeli]

So basicly J-11 is just Chinese assembled Su-27 (with all the Russian parts); J-11B is an upgraded Su-27/J-11 with more Chinese made parts; finally J-11BS is more like Chinese made (not just assembled) Su-30MKK (maybe more advanced). Coz at the end of the day Su-30MKK is just an upgraded Su-27 with 2-seater, right?

yes that is correct, but the SU-30 is like the F-15E Strike Eagle, it is a dule role fighter, means it can do both air-air and air-grd combat. :china: :china:

[bd popeye]

that is what the u.s. air force say it needs, since more than 800 aircraft in the u.s. are grounded or under heavy flight restrictions and the 30 year old F-15 once able to fly at mach 2.5, pilots are told never to exceade mach 1.5, that is telling you something. :coffee:

zachjeli, can you back up that statement with a link? A news article would be fine. Thank you.

Personally I did not find any such statement on line.

edit..I did find an article on stragety page. But I do not trust the source. Plus the article is two years old...I'm sure those tech problems are now resolved.

[eecsmaster]

"So basicly J-11 is just Chinese assembled Su-27 (with all the Russian parts); J-11B is an upgraded Su-27/J-11 with more Chinese made parts; finally J-11BS is more like Chinese made (not just assembled) Su-30MKK (maybe more advanced). Coz at the end of the day Su-30MKK is just an upgraded Su-27 with 2-seater, right?"

No. Read this carefully, since the question has been asked quite a few times:

J-11 Original made with 100% Russian knock down kits.

J-11A Chinese airframe, Russian engine and avionics. Supposedly upgraded to be R-77 capable.

J-11B Fully domestic built with a Type 147X series radar, WS-10A. The only Russian item MIGHT be the IRST, which is rumored to be the one on the Su-30 instead of the original Su-27SK's.

J-11BS Chinese equivalent of the Su-30MK series. Fully domestic. I'm not sure about IRST.

[crobato]

It appears that the IRST on the J-11B might be Chinese. I think the whole plane has a stated and political goal of going all Chinese, regardless if some of the Russian equivalents of the parts might actually perform better.

The R-77 modification extends to all the J-11s including the ones on the kits. As a matter of fact, it seems that the last batch of Su-27UBK, which was all imported from Russia, were also upgraded with them.

Importation of OLS-31E (the Su-30 IRST) is likely for the J-11A. It is likely that this OLS model is standard on all J-11s including the ones in the kits.

Hard to define what is high or low mix.

If the J-11B flyaway costs well under 35 million (Su-30MK2 costs 37 million in 2004 dollars), J-10 around 24-25 million, and FC-1 is under 20 million. Does that really make much of a difference? We're not seeing a Toyota-Lexus relationship. Its more like Camry vs. Corolla vs. Yaris/Vios.

[RPGGUNNER]

zachjeli, can you back up that statement with a link? A news article would be fine. Thank you.

Personally I did not find any such statement on line.

edit..I did find an article on stragety page. But I do not trust the source. Plus the article is two years old...I'm sure those tech problems are now resolved.

he got that article for google news about the air force going to war with aging fighters jets.

[tphuang]

As far as I can tell all the talk about J-10 beating the SU-27 variants was related to within visional range engagements. It’s not that surprising that the smaller fighter did better in a dog fight. An F-16 is better then an F-15 in a dog fight, that doesn’t mean the F-16, is going to replace the F-15. The J-11b is going to be better the J-10 in every regard expert perhaps debatable maneuverability and cost. I think it’s clear at this point that the Chinese have decided to go with a high low mix of J-10 and J-11. Now a lot of Chinese ultra nationals will tell you that twin engine J-10 or something is going to replace the J-11, but I just don’t see that happening within the next ten years. The Chinese have just gotten to the point that they are able to produce indigently 4th generation fighters. They lack the technology to product aircraft that are significantly better then the J-10 or J-11 in more then one or two areas.
not really. It was a variety of different combats. BVR and WVR. It's really not much a stretch to think J-10 can beat the earlier su-27 variants in BVR, because of its much superior avionics, radar and weapon system. The question has always been whether J-10 can beat J-11B given that they use similar generation avionics and weapon system. So, J-11B will get basically more processing power, more powerful radar + EW suite and such. J-10 does have some advantages like having far lower RCS than J-11B (let's not kid ourselves here, flankers are a humongous and is higher than the often talked about 10 m^2). And it also has better turn rates and supersonic performance (which helps since it gives greater energy to missiles at launch and also allow you to get into better position). I guess we will see when they match up against each other.

[Chengdu J-10]

OK Lets break this down in comparable aircrafts alright people. Now the comparable performance level of the J-10 is said to be like the the F-18F, and the J-11B is said to be comparable to the Su-30MKK2/3 forgot which one. Now in so basically in a hypothetical analyses its a F-18F vs Su-30MKK2/3 battle of superiority. Now as both aircrafts have its own ups and downs. It will take two sides of viewing for this. It would be good for the flanker fanatics to post their Su-30MKK2/3 specialities and advantages over the F-18F. And the other side of the post will be the hornet fanatics posting their F-18F knowledge and advantages over the Su-30MKK2/3. Now with this it will be combining these two to give a rough combat scenario of performance simularity to the J-10 and J-11B. I know it won't be accurate it will have many aspects of error. But hey its a start in unsolving the lethality of the J-10 if it was battling out in a air war

[kickars]

"So basicly J-11 is just Chinese assembled Su-27 (with all the Russian parts); J-11B is an upgraded Su-27/J-11 with more Chinese made parts; finally J-11BS is more like Chinese made (not just assembled) Su-30MKK (maybe more advanced). Coz at the end of the day Su-30MKK is just an upgraded Su-27 with 2-seater, right?"

No. Read this carefully, since the question has been asked quite a few times:

J-11 Original made with 100% Russian knock down kits.

J-11A Chinese airframe, Russian engine and avionics. Supposedly upgraded to be R-77 capable.

J-11B Fully domestic built with a Type 147X series radar, WS-10A. The only Russian item MIGHT be the IRST, which is rumored to be the one on the Su-30 instead of the original Su-27SK's.

J-11BS Chinese equivalent of the Su-30MK series. Fully domestic. I'm not sure about IRST.

Oh well, I think that's what I meant... Anyway, thanks for clarify them in detials. I'm glad to see J-11BS will be the first fully domestic all round fighter in China.:)

[Scratch]

OK Lets break this down in comparable aircrafts alright people. Now the comparable performance level of the J-10 is said to be like the the F-18F...

Don't know if I'm just not getting your point, but seems useless to me. Because what sense is it to compare aircrafts when you base the results on another uncertain comparison. I mean where comes the conclusion from that a J-10 is comparable to an F-18F??

[Kim Jong Il]

Don't know if I'm just not getting your point, but seems useless to me. Because what sense is it to compare aircrafts when you base the results on another uncertain comparison. I mean where comes the conclusion from that a J-10 is comparable to an F-18F??

the J-10 and the F-18F have the same speed of Mach !.8, but the J-10 is probably more manuverable with a g-limit of 9g, well the F-18F has a g-limit of +7.5g. the F-18F does have the same rate of clime as the J-10 with 50,000 ft/min.

[crobato]

The J-10 has a rated speed of Mach 2.0, but then so does many other fighters according to their marketing. How high your mach isn't much of a tactical value. What's important is how fast you can get to it, how long you can stay on it, and how much you can carry while you do it.

The F-18s by their aerodynamic design, are meant for low speed maneuverbility. They are meant to turn fast, turn tight, turn at even slower speeds, then turn even tighter. The draggy design is not efficient for fast cruising or over Mach 1. The J-10 is more efficient at higher speeds all the way to the supersonic. It's really a rabbit. Just check what is the most visually obvious aspect of aerodynamics---the sweep of the wing. Wings with a straighforward edge and sweep do much better at lower speeds, and is very maneuverable, but tends to get draggy and slower at higher speeds. Wings with a very sharp and acute sweep don't turn as well at lower speeds, but they are very fast in turns involving wide sweeping circles with full military power. Sharp wings also let you hit supersonic faster and reach higher mach.

[challenge]

It appears that the IRST on the J-11B might be Chinese. I think the whole plane has a stated and political goal of going all Chinese, regardless if some of the Russian equivalents of the parts might actually perform better.

The R-77 modification extends to all the J-11s including the ones on the kits. As a matter of fact, it seems that the last batch of Su-27UBK, which was all imported from Russia, were also upgraded with them.

Importation of OLS-31E (the Su-30 IRST) is likely for the J-11A. It is likely that this OLS model is standard on all J-11s including the ones in the kits.

Hard to define what is high or low mix.

If the J-11B flyaway costs well under 35 million (Su-30MK2 costs 37 million in 2004 dollars), J-10 around 24-25 million, and FC-1 is under 20 million. Does that really make much of a difference? We're not seeing a Toyota-Lexus relationship. Its more like Camry vs. Corolla vs. Yaris/Vios.

the original Su-27SK IRST do not possess modern IR imaging capability,but 2 years ago.october 2005 a Chinese technical magazine reveal new generation of IRST,call Chung Kuang-1,although no technical data was reveal.but during the Beijing def. exhibition, Loyang optical displayed Gen.3 focal plane array detector-Quantum wells IR array detector.
There is possibility that Chinese engineer replace the original russian IR detector with Chinese design IR detector.

[tphuang]

Looks like a picture of J-11B at CFTE.
Notice the black nose + the MAW.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8710/j11bmar6wl3.jpg

[kca90]

Pardon for asking. What's the physical differences between a MKK and a MK2?
What do I look for when looking at pictures?:confused: Thanks

[BLUEJACKET]

I don't think you can ID them by looking at pictures, unless their serial #s / regimental colors are known, and they carry anti-ship and/or other typical missiles to each type of fighter.
PLA Air Force:
Su-30MKK
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su30_pic02.asp

Su-30MKK2
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su30_pic07.asp

Development of the latest Su-30MK2 began around early 2002. Compared to the MKK version in service with the PLAAF, the Su-30MK2 features an improved precision-attack capability and an entirely new C4ISTAR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance) role not previously hinted at. The aircraft’s new N001VEP fire-control radar is specifically modified to launch the Kh-31 (NATO codename: Kh-17A Krypton-A) long-range supersonic anti-ship missile.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su30.asp


http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showpost.php?p=22292&postcount=35

The SU-30MK2 is not the most advanced Russian fighter developed; it lacks the canard foreplanes or thrust vectoring of more advanced variants like India's SU-30MKI,.. Having said that, SU-30MK2s as a base platform are the equal of China's most advanced SU-30MKKK2s, and equal to or better than most SU-30 variants currently serving in Russia. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/07/venezuela-buying-su30s-helicopters-et-al-from-russia/index.php

The main difference of the Su-30MK2 model is its improved radar which is the upgraded N001VEP radar, with longer range coverage (up to 150 km) and able to guide a greater variety of weapons systems. ..
Su-30MKKs and especially the MK2, with their long range radars and Russian made weapons would undoubtedly be a great threat to US Navy ships operating near the Chinese coasts. The KH-31A for instance has a long range and its ramjet engine provide a high attack speed (around Mach 2.5) that could penetrate current air defenses of ships (even the sophisticated AEGIS). Chinese Su-30s will undoubtedly replace some of the old and vulnerable H-6 Badger bombers from strike or anti-ship roles, as these new fighter-bombers can deliver munitions more accurately while possessing just as much range and weapons load as these old bombers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK

[crobato]

RUMOR TIME !!

好消息！已证实鞍山换J11B。。。空19S成为唯一的全27师(图)
2007-04-09 00:53:25 点击:755
好消息！已证实鞍山换J11B。。。空19S成为唯一的全27师(图)

--------

好消息!!!已证实鞍山换J11B....空19S成为唯一的全27师
考古 2007-04-07 15:34

原来的J11/A移交郑州马头岗机场...
空19S成为T*G唯一的全27师!!!!!!!!!!!


Just to make it short, looks like the 19th Division at An