Bison / J-7 questions

[nonpilot]

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade? I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12?

Also does the PLAF use their F-7 (Mig-21) like India's air force does team with their Flankers? Or would they use J-8Ds or J-8II (which ever is their best) be team up with Flankers?

Do Chinese fighter and attack aircraft have data links? I guess what I'm trying to say badly is can a Chinese Flanker flying say a hundred and twenty miles from a target pass off that information to a shooter flying closer? To a J-7 or J-8D to take the shot flying with their radar off?

Thanks

[adeptitus]

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade? I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12? Thanks

The Indian MiG-21-93 (Bison) is probably better than the stanadard J-7's used by the PLAAF today. There are conflicting reports on its actual capability. For an example, ACIG claims that the Bison is equipped with the Phazotron-NIIR Kopyo-M radar with Ts501F digital processor, and can detect fighter sized targets at 72km distance in forward hemisphere, track 10 targets and engage 2.

And here we have a different report from aeronautics.ru:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/fi021.htm

"A prototype MAPO/ Sokol MiG-21-93 upgrade has shot down an aerial target with a beyond-visual-range Vympel RVV-AE missile (R-77/AA-12 Adder). The active radar-guided RVV-AE and Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) light-weight multimode radar are key elements of the MiG-21-93 upgrade being developed for Indian air force aircraft.

A subsonic target was destroyed in a direct hit by the RVV-AE, which was fitted with a telemetry package in place of the warhead. The launch was made at 12km (6nm) in a head-on engagement. The target was at 20,000ft (6,100m) and the fighter at 13,000ft. The test was intended to include two firings, the second with in armed missile, but its launch was cancelled following destruction of the target.

The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously. A target shoot down using the Vympel R-73 (AA- 11 Archer) infrared-guided short-range air-to-air missile was completed in April. Test firings of the Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) semi-active radar air-to-air missile and Zvezda Kh-25MP (AS-12 Kegler) antiradar missile are planned.

=======

As for small jets that pack a big punch, try the Yak/AEM-130. Probably one of the most heavily armed trainer jets I've seen:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/yak_130/

[nonpilot]

As for small jets that pack a big punch, try the Yak/AEM-130. Probably one of the most heavily armed trainer jets I've seen:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/yak_130/[/QUOTE]

Can the YAK-130 be armed with AA-12? I didn't see that on the web page but I guess a software upgrade would fix that. Wow looks like a winner have they sold any yet? Did a quick search but didn't come up with anything only a order from Russia's air force which could be paper or real, you never know.

Back to the thread
Would China's air force use their J-8s like India might use the Mig-21 Bisons?

[sumdud]

As the Bison's size is similar to that of the J-7C/D, which was complained about for its poor manuverability, I'd guess that the J-7E/G will outfight it in a dogfight.(Especially when it can't fly far.) The Bison is capable of launching BVRAAMs, but at much shorter ranges, just beyond BVR range I think.

But its radar is also able to conduct ARM attacks.

The rumor is now that the J-7Gs might be able to launch PL-11s/12s, in which case I'd pick the J-7G.

What about the MiG-21-2000?

[tphuang]

I would think the avionic suite on the most recent J-7 and bison are probably comparable, but the radar on bison should be slightly better (or maybe not). The only difference is that bison can fire R-77 and also has IRST. If plaaf bothers to give J-7 BVR capability, it should be able to achieve similar results. I know people would say that bison has RAM coating and such, but all of CAC's current stealth testing was originally done on J-7.

[crobato]

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade?

I would favor the Bison for its BVR capability and having those R-73s in close range. The J-7E/G may be more maneuverable however, but it may not be enough.


I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12?


Despite all the wish thinking, the J-7G's radar is too small to support something like the PL-12 effectively. Not enough radar size and power for a good range and lacking enough space for components to add more functions. What the J-7G has is basically a dogfight radar with a search mode.

If China had continue to manufacture the J-7D instead, that plane's nose would be big enough to host a radar as big as the Kopyo's, or for that matter, the FC-1's.


Also does the PLAF use their F-7 (Mig-21) like India's air force does team with their Flankers? Or would they use J-8Ds or J-8II (which ever is their best) be team up with Flankers?

Hard to say but I can't imagine why they won't. Most certainly there is coordination between the different types.


Do Chinese fighter and attack aircraft have data links?


Yes.


I guess what I'm trying to say badly is can a Chinese Flanker flying say a hundred and twenty miles from a target pass off that information to a shooter flying closer? To a J-7 or J-8D to take the shot flying with their radar off?


No.

[MIGleader]

well, if we are talking the MOST modern j-7, it would be the j-7fs 2(technical demonstrater, noy in service). that definitely has a nose large enought to house a faurly large and powerful radar, much more powerful than the bisons. does anyone know what radar it feilds?

it still retains the manuverability and advanced avionics of its predecessors

[Hu Yao]

Very intersting.We chinese army did not use such plane as j-7 a/b/c/d,or we don't call them like that.

In PLAAF there are j-7 I/II/III/E/G.The j-7 I/II are based on mig-21-f13,j-7 III are based on mig-21bs,j-7 E/G are designed by ourselves.The j-7 a/b/m/mg/p/pg are used for oversea users.

Not like India airforce,we only use j-7 as combat air craft.Our J-7 are more agile than their mig-21(Because our plane is based on mig-21-f13,their plane is based on mig-21 bs).All the j-7s have no BVR capablity,but they can fire pl-5/7/8/9 A-A missiles.And recently we armed them with helmet sights.So I believe that those planes can might(not will) f-16 in dogfight.

[tphuang]

I would favor the Bison for its BVR capability and having those R-73s in close range. The J-7E/G may be more maneuverable however, but it may not be enough.
I would disagree with you on the one point here. I think the PL-8B/PL-9C is better than R-73 (at least the earlier models). The developers said that much better electronics were used to develop better ECM capability on PL-9C. And also, PL-9C inherited all the traits of R-73 like HMS and off-boresight capability. The only thing it really lacks is an imaged infrared seeker.

[vincelee]

Bison........HA

you people DO realize that the Kopyo cost as much as the fully fitted airframe itself, right? Plus the thing flies like a pig.

As for PL-9C, not having IIR is absolutely horrible. ECM doesn't figure much into a purely infra red seeker armed missile, it's all about the flares.

[ArjunMk1]

Complete specs abt Mig 21 Bison !!!



The Indian Ministry of Defence initially banked on the Light Combat Aircraft program to design a replacement for the huge inventory of MiG-21s that would need to be phased out towards the latter half of the 90s and the early years of the 21st century. But with the impending delays in the LCA program it became clear that an interim measure has to be implemented. Upgrading a select number of the MiG-21s with better avionics and armament to make them more compatible in today’s hostile EW rich environment could do this. Thus was borne the MiG-21-93 program. It was proposed to extend the Total Technical Life (TTL) of the MiG-21Bis from the current level of 2400 Hours as well as Upgrade the avionic capabilities of the existing aircraft. The Russian Counterpart – MiG MAPO indicated in August 91 that an upgrade of the MiG-21 can be carried out. After a joint study, it was decided to award the contract for upgradation to MiG-MAPO in in March 1994.

The proposal for 125 MiG Bis aircraft with an option to upgrade 50 more aircraft at a total cost of US$ 626 million was cleared in January 1996. The upgrade was to include major modifications by MiG-MAPO which would incorporate Western Avionics as well as indigenously developed components. Besides the major airframe, weapons and radar contract with MiG, a contract with Sextant was signed for the Inertial navigation System (INS), with HAL for subsequent upgradation of the aircraft, with NAL for fatigue testing and studies in TTL Extension and with BEL for development of the Tarang Radar warning Receiver (RWR).

HAL dispatched two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) to Russia in May 1996 for modification. However the Air Force team could only reach in October 96.The schedule was to upgrade about 30 aircraft by end of the financial year in 1999, followed by 40 aircraft in the subsequent years. The complete upgradation of the 125 aircraft and the additional option of 50 were to be completed by March 2003. However the project got delayed to the extent of three years. Non-Supply of documentation, revision of Bill of Materials and delays in integration of weapons and flight-testing resulted in these delays. The flight-testing and combat evaluation of the aircraft, which was scheduled to be completed by April 1998 was completed only by September 2000 after a delay of 30 months. The Russians in turn allege problems in payments by HAL as well as Low reliability in components supplied by the Indian firms.

The development of the RWR system was entrusted to Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) with an objective to develop a compact Advanced Radar Warning Receiver system for fighter aircraft – which could be used not only for the upgraded MiG-21 but also in other aircraft like the MiG-27 and Sukhoi-30. Two systems were supplied directly to MiG MAPO by April 98 , a delay of almost one year. Further delays were complicated in the delays in supply of the INS system.

However a major handicap of the project was that the study to find out the feasibility of the extension of TTL was not completed on time. It is believed this study, which was subcontracted to NAL in Bangalore was completed only in the middle of 2002. It was also charged in a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) , a government watchdog body that audits the expenditure on all financial expenditure in India that the Russian contractors had gone back on technology transfer without any royalty clause. The report also said that similar technology transfer agreements for avionic systems had also not been finalised with western vendors, which could pose a difficulty in repair and overhaul of the upgraded fighters.

Induction progress

The first two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) which were upgraded in Russia, did their first test flight on October 6th, 1998. Trials of the medium-range Vympel R-73RDM2 and the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Vympel R-77/RVV-AEE air-to-air missiles were conducted in February 1999. The formidable combination of the Phazatron Kopyo (Spear) light weight multi-mode radar with that of the Missiles proved a success, the subsonic target drone aircraft being destroyed by a R-77 fired from 6km away. In all the two prototypes were believed to have done nearly 200 test flights.

After the two prototype aircraft have returned to India in July 2001, the HAL manufacture of the Upgraded MiGs from the supplied kits commenced. The first HAL built MiG-21 commenced taxi trials on August 27th , 2001. The first test flights of the HAL upgraded MiG-21Bis (C-2794) happened on August 31st, 2001. As more and more Aircraft were being upgraded, the privilege of being the first unit to fly these 21st century MiG-21s went to the Cobras. Somewhere around this time the decision to add a Suffix ‘U’ to the Alphabetical portion of the Serial was taken – to differentiate from the earlier Bis. Thus C-2794 would become CU-2794 etc.

Wg Cdr RK Dhir, who had been associated with the UPG program arrived from Russia to take command of the Squadron on July 23rd, 2001. The Cobras got a glimpse of their first UPG, the HAL Assembled one, when it came here in September. It was bought there to take part in the AFD 2001 Parade at Palam in October. The Indian and International media got thier first close glimpse of the aircraft on this occasion.

By the end of the year, five pilots were selected for the Conversion course and sent to Bangalore for Simulator training and to Ojhar for flying training. At that time the pilots referred to the UPG as ‘BUG’ - abbreviation for Bison Up Grade. Conversion training at Bangalore was ten ‘sorties’ on the Systems Integration Rig – the simulator. Thereon the pilots moved to Ozhar AFS at Nashik and flew five sorties each on the UPG.

The pilots termed the aircraft as a ‘revelation’ – They were most impressed by the avionics and new systems, though the airframe and engine were the same. All five pilots reported the change as ‘fantastic’.



In an interview with the filming team, the CO, Wg Cdr Dhir emphasized the ‘new’ features of the aircraft, including its ability to use BVR missiles like the R-77 and the usage of Standoff Weapons like the KAB 500, incidentally both of which were displayed on the Bison’s Weapon stations to the filming team (or for any media team) for the first time. The CO was all praise for the improved visibility of the new aircraft and the much simpler workload on the pilot due to the improved avionics.

One of the first things that we noticed are the external features that differentiate the Bison from the Bis. The earlier Bis had a very restrictive view in terms of the Cockpit. The older fixed windshield has been replaced with a new ‘frame less’ Windshield . The older side opening Canopy with a prominent rear view mirror arrangement in the middle of the Perspex has been replaced with a clear bubble canopy which had semicircle rear view mirrors fitted to the rim, offering a much better view. The Conformal ECM Dispensing Systems, which are installed over the wingroot, are another distinguishing feature. Last is the RWR Antennae that have been put on the vertical fin. Something that we never got to see, but is another significant upgrade to the aircraft is the new Helmet Mounted Sighting System, which enables the pilot to launch an Air to Air Missile at off bore angles, simply by turning his head towards the target.

[ArjunMk1]

Visual difference :

1.Cockpit :

Mig21Bison Cockpit :
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Mig-21/MiG08.jpg

Mig21 Bis Cockpit
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/Tezpur/C-1171-Cockpit.jpg

2. Visibility :

Mig 21bison has enhanced visibility, due to all glass cockpit
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html

Mig21 bis cockpit windows :
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Mig-21/MiG03.jpg

[MIGleader]

im assuming the bison has curved front windsheild like the j-7g, right?(the pic doesnt work)

why dont we pull up some j-7 cocpits too?
http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-7E_%26_F-7MG_%28left%29%2C_F-7PG_%28middle%29%2C_J-7G_%28right%29.jpg

left: j-7e, middle: j-7mg(g), right: j-7pg

[sumdud]

??? We are comparing the J-7 though, not the Bis......

The J-7E/G can do everything the Bis can do.

I'd pick the J-7G. After all, even when the Bison can use the Adder, it's not at full range, but only about 20km more I think.

The question/problem is that we can't get a word on the J-7G's ability to launch PL-11 and 12s.

[ArjunMk1]

im assuming the bison has curved front windsheild like the j-7g, right?(the pic doesnt work)

why dont we pull up some j-7 cocpits too?
http://centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/J-7E_%26_F-7MG_%28left%29%2C_F-7PG_%28middle%29%2C_J-7G_%28right%29.jpg

left: j-7e, middle: j-7mg(g), right: j-7pg


Heres the image of Bison's windshield

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Mig-21/MiG-21l1.jpg

[MIGleader]

i really dont think a bison and j-7 would fight eachother...after all, arnt they both intercpetors?

as for nonpilots question, china would use neither j-7 or j-8(both interceptors) in conjunction with flankers. more like j-10s.
btw, what kind of engine does the bison use?

[SteelBird]

one small question: how do u guy post picture @ original size? i use attachment, but pictures are small, viewers need to enlarge it.

i saw a picture of and F-7 (MiG 21) which taking off vertically. this sound fun! i'm not sure if this is a real picture.

[Gollevainen]

There's a clear (at least in my obinion) istructions for pictureposting in annoucment seen over every forum.

Also the plane in your picture is SOVIET MiG-21PD, a STOL (not VTOL) testing aircraft fitted wiht RD-36 liftjets, similars as in Yak-38. Soviets fitted these liftjets in other planes as well for same purposes, including MiG-23-01, a early prototype of MiG-23 without VG wings, T-6, a similar non-VG prototype of Su-24 and also to T-58, a converted Su-15. The test showed that liftengines are not very practical solutions to improve STOL ability of fighting aircraft as they increased considerably the deathweight, taked space from the fuel and also added the fule consumption. The liftjets exhaust nozzles were mounted in the best possiple place for weapon carrying, the centre of the fuslage so the program was stopped and other solutions were made instead.

[sumdud]

Heh? The imagination of the concept itself being done on a MiG-21 is unimaginable. That'll seriously ruin the plane's structure and airflow......

Well, the Fishbed was designed to take some rough ground, so it doesn't really need the STOL. (Its weight is low, don't think it needs a long runway.)

So no need for that.

But is the Fishbed big enough to fit, let's say, 7 HP?

[SteelBird]

Hi, Guy. why don't you just simply tell me where to get the instruction for posting pictures. you can see that i'm a new member to this forum, actually, i'm new to all forum. i can't even find FAQ on this site.

There's a clear (at least in my obinion) istructions for pictureposting in annoucment seen over every forum.

Also the plane in your picture is SOVIET MiG-21PD, a STOL (not VTOL) testing aircraft fitted wiht RD-36 liftjets, similars as in Yak-38. Soviets fitted these liftjets in other planes as well for same purposes, including MiG-23-01, a early prototype of MiG-23 without VG wings, T-6, a similar non-VG prototype of Su-24 and also to T-58, a converted Su-15. The test showed that liftengines are not very practical solutions to improve STOL ability of fighting aircraft as they increased considerably the deathweight, taked space from the fuel and also added the fule consumption. The liftjets exhaust nozzles were mounted in the best possiple place for weapon carrying, the centre of the fuslage so the program was stopped and other solutions were made instead.

[swimmerXC]

one every forum there's "Announcements" on the top..
heres the link
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/announcement.php?f=8
hope it helps, PM me if you have any questions

[SteelBird]

Big thanks to SwimmerXC!!! I got it now.

You know I'm a fan in military equipment. I spend quite much time surfing this forum but seldom post idea. If ever I have new stuff, I never keep it.

[Indianfighter]

The following are some more details regarding the upgradation of the MiG-21 Bison, in addition to those posted by Arjun MK1:

The upgrade mainly revolves around the Phazotron Kopyo-M radar and integrated BVR attack capability with R-77 BVRAAMs. Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro nav. system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWR's antennae on the tailfin and the single piece windshield.

<photo>

This MiG-21 Bison (CU-2252) is from the No.3 'Cobras' squadron. It's loadout includes the not so commonly seen seeker module of the KAB-500Kr TV guided bomb on the centerline pylon not to mention an R-73 training round and an R-77 BVRAAM carried underwing. The aircraft's sophisticated EW suite comprises of a DRDO Tarang RWR/RHAWS, "Tempest" internal Self-protection jammer (SPJ) and the conformal CMDS.

<photo>

Apart from the new nose-cone, the forward fuselage needed some modification/extension to accommodate the new Kopyo-M radar. Apparently this modification does not feature on the MiG-21-93s which were photographed over Russia during their testing phase, giving the impression of larger nose-cones on the latter.

Source with photos:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_223.shtml

Comments: The MiG-21 Bison has the avionics nearing in performance to 4th generation fighter aircraft. The MiG-21 Bison is the one of the most advanced MiG-21s in the world.

[MIGleader]

4th generation aircraft in this world have varying avionics. Compared to an su-27sk, the bisons cockpit is a diamond. compared with the mirage-2000-5, it is a trash can.

The most advanced mig-21 today is probably israels mig-21 2000. If china ever puts the j-7fs-2 into service(unlikely though), it would probably be the best or second best.

[Sendoh]

Nice pics....is it just me or do those J-7 cockpits look ar more advanced:china: