Moderated Taiwan Invasion Wargame [Archive]

utelore

12-26-2005, 06:07 PM

Ok, I have just launched a pre-emptive strike against all PRC major surface combatants with amph warfare ships getting the highest priority with F-16 armed Harpoons. Any aircraft that can fly and carry weapons will be sent against PRC naval ships in this pre-emptive strike. I have also launched modified ASM strikes against military C&C sites on the PRC mainland. I have dispersed my armoured formations into company size units into major cities. I have begun setting up more than 15,000 roadside bombs along major routs to the sea and beach areas. These roadside bombs will be seamines, aircraft bombs and arty rounds. Arty tubes will be dispersed to cover suspected invasion beach sites. My best SF and airborne units will be ordered into civ CARS/SUV armed with any Antitank weapon that they can get their hands on to cover movement routs from beach heads. All bridges within 5 miles of the sea will be destroyed.

All men and women of fighting fittness will now be drafted to the freedom corps and given basic instruction on setting up roadside bombs. I have ordered all machine and metal shops to start producing a very simple panzerfaust/RPG style of weapon. I have ordered the military police to go out and shoot all PRC politocal backers.

All basments in the major cities will be interconnected into other basements and ratholes. Major armourys will be dispersed into smaller urban areas. clorine gas will begin to be made and placed into 120mm mortor rounds for use in "SOME AREAS" just enough to make the PRC army units go into MOP gear to cause battle fatigue if the ground war even happens. All ports on the west side of the island will be mined and destroyed. A 100,000 in gold coin will be paid to anyone who joins the freedom corp sniper platoons and has a confirmed kill on a PRC officer. I do request limited U.S intervention IE PGM attacks on PRC naval assets and want the U.S to start shipping/airdroping Javilin, Stinger, AT-4 and food stuffs.

YOUR MOVE COMMIE....CHEERS UTE.

swimmerXC

12-26-2005, 06:37 PM

Ok, I have just launched a pre-emptive strike against all PRC major surface combatants with amph warfare ships getting the highest priority with F-16 armed Harpoons. I have also launched modified ASM strikes against military C&C sites on the PRC mainland. I have dispersed my armoured formations into company size units into major cities. I have begun setting up more than 15,000 roadside bombs along major routs to the sea and beach areas.

All men and women of fighting fittness will now be drafted to the freedom corps and given basic instruction on setting up roadside bombs. I have ordered all machine and metal shops to start producing a very simple panzerfaust/RPG style of weapon. I have ordered the military police to go out and shoot all PRC politocal backers.

All basments in the major cities will be interconnected into other basements and ratholes. Major armourys will be dispersed into smaller urban areas.

are you an ROC commander? :roll:
seriously if you are, dont make me laugh ROC invading PRC? :roll:
thats like saying Cuba invading the US :roll:

utelore

12-26-2005, 06:48 PM

NO NO NO, I am not invading china just attacking it with aircraft and missile. I am setting up for a defensive war on a very large scale to kill as many of the CHICOM I can. every thing I have stated can be done by the forces that the ROC has. I have a very aggresive defensive plan set up. It will make the Iraqi insurgents look like school girls.

pathfinder

12-26-2005, 07:19 PM

PRC: Down those F-16s with S-300 regiments and PLAAF own air assets in Zhejiang province, then watch Taiwan perform its one-man show. Nobody said the invasion needs to happen right after they declare independence so I let them worn themselves out over a course of few months before making any further moves.

Your move

crazyinsane105

12-26-2005, 07:37 PM

If Taiwan sends out its air force in an offensive manner, they would get show down by the deadly SAM systems and air defense fighters the PLAAF and PLAN have. On top of that, there are many reports stating how that the US has yet to ship BVR missiles for Taiwan's fighters. So how Taiwan's F-16's will be able to defend itself properly by losing a huge chunk of its air force is beyond my comprehension.

Well, since Taiwan launched a pre-empt strike, China has no reason not to strike back in full force. China's move: light up the airfields with hundreds of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. This will force Patriot batteries to use up most of their precious missiles against the incoming BM's. Now, conduct saturated missile attacks against Taiwan's navy using JH-7A bombers and MKK-2 fighter bombers. A large chunk of Taiwan's navy would be resting on bottom of the South China Sea after 48 hours. Your turn Taiwan.

RavenWing278

12-26-2005, 07:44 PM

are you suggesting that the ROC strikes first? not only will they be condemn in the eyes of other nations but allies such as japan and America won't be in the position to aid taiwan because it wasnt the PRC who struck first

utelore

12-26-2005, 08:44 PM

Yes I am. HELLOOOOO the PRC just game taiwan a 72hr deadline after that I think the world would reasonably believe that after that 72hours the PRC would attack. ALL NATIONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO A PREMPTIVE DEFENSIVE MOVE and I just did that. I am still forming a op-plan but I need some casulity figures on how much damage I did on my premptive attack to continue. YOU MUST BE REASONBLE ON CASULITY FIGURES MR MODERATORS as F-16 with HARMS and Harpoons would do a bit of damage to PRC naval assets and AirD network.

crazyinsane105

12-26-2005, 10:05 PM

According to fas.org, Taiwan doesn't have any HARM missiles because the decision to sell them was deffered by President Bush. Also, Taiwan isn't too far away from the mainland so all of Taiwan would be under radar coverage. Launching a pre-empt attack without sustaining heavy casualties will be all but impossible. Since Taiwan doesn't have HARM, they won't be able to inflict any damage on China's air defense system. As for damage upon the PLAN's naval assets, it depends how many Harpoons the F-16's would be able to launch and how many of them would be intercepted. Right now Taiwan's F-16's can hold only 2 Harpoons. Let's say there is a large strike force of 20 F-16's and there are going to be 12 Mirages providing air cover. I beleive Taiwan has the Block I version of the Harpoon and that only has a range of 60 miles. To make the maximum effect with the Harpoons, the F-16's will have to come within a range of 45 miles (you can't launch missiles at their max range). Now, I don't know the exact range of the missiles on the PLAN's air defense destroyers, but I can safely assume that they exceed the range of the Harpoons. Basically, the mission is complete suicide. Taiwan will lost its all participating aircraft in that strike without even being able to effectively damage the PLAN. And even if Taiwan had the Block II Harpoon with a range of 80 miles, China's AWACs and ground based radars would have detected the approaching aircraft long before they even reach any PLAN assets and nearby interceptors would take care of the aircaft (it also doesn't help that Taiwan's BVR missiles are in storage in Haiwaii).

Basically, Taiwan's small force isn't for any offensive purposes. The only thing that Taiwan can hope for is to last as long as they can until the US arrives.

sumdud

12-26-2005, 10:23 PM

Are the players set or are we fluid, and can we switch sides?

Cuz I have plans for both sides and is itching to post a move.

utelore

12-26-2005, 10:54 PM

By Brian Hsu
STAFF REPORTER
Monday, May 20, 2002,Page 2

The US agreed last month to sell to Taiwan high-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARMs), a counter to China's radar sites along the coastline, defense sources said yesterday.
The platform for the HARM is the F-16 fighter plane, which already has an interface for the operation of the missile.

The missile would be used mainly against the radars for the Russian-made S-300 air defense systems deployed in Fujian Province, which faces Taiwan across the Strait.

I launched more than a 100 F-16 and 40+ mirage 2000 in this attack. If you guys are claiming this is suicide and cannot be done you are either on another planet or dreaming. You guys are completely underestamating The ROC military ability.

F-16 Falcon USA -- -- -- 146
Mirage 2000 France 57
IDF Ching-kuo -- --128
F-5 USA 90+

I HAVE MORE THAN 400+ COMBAT AIRCRAFT. THIS IS NO SMALL FORCE. 200 OF THESE ARE GOOD MODERN PLANES.

sumdud

12-26-2005, 11:08 PM

Is it even there yet? I mean, has it arrive in Taiwan, or is it stored in Hawaii with the AIM-120? I guess it's shipped since Taiwan needs to counter the S-300s and HQ-9s.
But how much missiles are there? Doubt it's a lot.

So result(I guess I will be the moderator for now?): 10 Mirages and 25 Falcons lost (The number of SAMs is not just 10.) on ROC's side. 25 ships, 15 radars and 5 missile batteries destroyed on PRC's side.

renmin

12-26-2005, 11:17 PM

Just a reminder, there are no nukes involved, I know. so dont mention it. China will not intend to nuke taiwan. Any ways, this will probably be more of a sea battle with surface combatants and subs. Ofcorse China is going to send amfibious transports and deploy land troops. Man sumdud, the ROC is going to lose way more than that to destroy all those weapons on the PRC's side. By the way, you guys havent mentioned the Americans yet, didnt they voule to protect taiwan if China attacks?

utelore

12-26-2005, 11:29 PM

Ok sumdud that sounds like reasonable figures. I think it would be neat if you did like

CNN date line 2008. In a massive preemptive strike The ROC has reportedly sunk more than a dozen PRC warships while at the same time taking huge losses in aircraft.......just a thought

sumdud

12-26-2005, 11:34 PM

Well, America said that they will not help Taiwan if Taiwan declared independence, and I trust that they keep their promise in this case, since an independent Taiwan does not exactly fit America's wish.

I don't know if Japan will come and help and use the words "Regional security" as a reason.................
Actually, they most probably will now that I think of it..

So, Ute and Crazy, agree on the result?
(And mind if I join the game?)
----
Dang, I am too slow here.....

crazyinsane105

12-26-2005, 11:35 PM

Now, the damage done to the PRC would be quite great, but the PRC has much more resources than the ROC. Like Sumdud said, I would probably expect a dozen or so ships to be destroyed (if they have Block II Harpoons, make that number two dozen). Unless I know how many HARMs the ROC has, I won't comment on the number of SAM batteries lost. However, I know for a fact that Taiwan's Aim-120's are stored in Hawaii so the ROC would take huge losses before being able to engage in WVR combat. This includes casualties from China's air defense destroyers and nearby SAM batteries. So if 140 aircraft are used and none of them have BVR missiles, about half would return back to base. PRC aircraft losses wouldn't be nearly as great since they can just fire 20 miles away at ROC aircraft. Also, in WVR engagements, do Taiwan's aircraft have HMS? If not, that can even be more problematic.

And while this large air battle is taking place, it would be the perfect time for China to launch its ballistic and cruise missiles against ROC's airbases. Wiping out the landing strips and control towers would make it quite difficult for many of those planes to land back.

Yeah, I guess my results are about the same as Sumdud's. And Sumdud, please do join.

utelore

12-26-2005, 11:44 PM

I have ordered the ROC aircraft to continue taking aggresive strike missons against targets on the PRC mainland and naval assets mainly with the 200+ IDF and F-5. I would now like to retain the remaining high end F-16 and Mirage 2000 for Air defence. Many of which should now be despersed to highways and other sparse airfields.

I also start launching Hsiung-Feng missile attacks against larger fixed bases located near Matsu and chinmen. I have launched 12 Hsiung feng missile towards the city center of Amoy and Foochow. This will be reported as erant missiles however the true meaning will be to let the People of china know they are in a war.

CRAZY, no war has been won sitting on your assets. you have to kill people or at least try to.YOU MUST BE AGGRESIVE AND LETHAL. I am a product of U.S military doctrine.

sumdud

12-26-2005, 11:59 PM

And while you two are sending fighters and missiles against each other.

There will be a small number of submarines outside the harbor of Taipei and Tainan. And I nearly forgot to mention that there are two submarines going to the East Coast of Taiwan. hehehehehehehehe

(No, Ute, you should not know about this. And you are too busy either way. I'd like to have at least 2 turn undisturbed? =P )

LessonsBoo

12-27-2005, 12:14 AM

Well, things don't just happens overnight.

While I do agree with what utelore said, I think that's the best chance of Taiwan to put their air asset to its best use. The surprise factor will no work.

Weeks before the election even begins, PRC would've more or less guessed at the outcome of it, and would have prepared to strike/to defend way before the election is over.

Important sites would be fortified, or even moved to new locations(To avoid PB mode HARM), more SAMs brought in, more aircraft divisions moved to the strait. Essential crews would be on stand by mode.

Before giving taiwan the 72 hours warning, PRCs naval asset would already be mobilised to take up defensive positions on strategic points. Air patrols would accompany those ships too. All balistic missiles would be launched at a finger click away. And pilots would be sitting in their aircraft on rotational basis ready to take off at first sign of trouble

So I'm saying that 90% of the attacking force won't even reach Chinese shore. Most casualty would occur in the taiwan straits itself..

MY PLAY as PRC.
After which, the PRC can choose to NOT EVEN attack taiwan, to NOT EVEN launch their BMs, UN security council will definitely be brought in. The chinese would call for sanctions and etc. As ROC will be seen as the agressor the US would be in a hard position to defend them.

Talks will be held, for maybe weeks, the ROC freedom corp/armies would be confused at the political battle ensuing, most will even lost morale, blaming themselves as the agressor.

My agents planted long before the attack would now have the fuel it needs to sway public opinion. The population would be angry at the administration for causing 'shame'/sanctions on taiwan.

And if talks doesnt turn out well, I'll use force to attack. Now after weeks of 'diplomacy' surprise would now be in my hands, morale would be lower on ROC due to the negative international image/pressure/news coverage on them.

All the roadside bombs that utelore took days/weeks to prepare would've been discarded, as life went back to normal during the weeks of diplomacy.

MIGleader

12-27-2005, 12:20 AM

im the commander of the plan south sea fleet. as an emergency measure, beijing has just given me command of all plan warships arriving from the north and east sea fleets.

my ships:
51cx2
52cx2
52bx2
51bx2
52x2
51gx15
54ax2
54x2
53x10
sovremennyx4

this makes the punny taiwan fleet look pathetic, especiialy when i throw in subs

kilox12
songx10
yuanx4
93x4
94x2

now, i order all of my subamarines and surface warships to fire a saturated missle attack on taiwans fleet. 95% of the roc ships are destroyed, and the rest are badly damaged.

i also order in my naval air arm of h-6's. jh-7as, and mkk2s to begin pulverizing taiwans near coastal air bases.

your move, ute

as for the american issue, 2008 is the elction year. hilary clinton has been elected, and she promptly begins "pacifying" the u.s, pulling troops out of iraq. she also cancels americas defence pact with taiwan.

donald rumsfeld, who is enraged, orders a single small cvbg in against the presidents orders.the cvbg has one carrier, and appropriate escorts. its only to make the game fair. otherwise, it may get too slanted. i think poeye should play the u.s cvbg commander.

crazyinsane105

12-27-2005, 12:21 AM

Utelore does have a pretty good doctrine I'll give him that. Inflicting the most casualties upon the PRC until the US can come and finish the job. Couldn't have thought of that better myself.

The ROC still lacks a BVR capability so they will be taking tremendous losses. My AWACs will provide consistent coverage of the air war and attacks against my naval assets would not go unpunished. I would be able to coordinate with great precision counterattacks that would make the ROC lose even more aircraft using combinations of aircraft, SAMs, and air defense destroyers. And since the ROC doesn't have a reliable BVR capability (those Aim-120's would be more useful if they weren't in Hawaii), ROC aircraft would face some huge losses. The ROC won't be able to conduct offensive operations after such massive losses and would have to conduct air defense instead.

Next, it would be time to take out Taiwan's air defense system. My side has a very capable SEAD missiles (the Kh-59 and any other future variant). Furthermore, many of Taiwan's PAC-3 batteries would be engaged trying to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles and cruise missiles which would probably number in the hundreds. Also, Taiwan would have to face the wrath of my Harpy missiles. I would continue to aggresively attack Taiwan's remaining aircraft, hit ground based radar systems with cruise missiles, and try to cripple Taiwan's air defense system using my own deadly HARMs (and I have plenty of these missiles HAHAHAHA!!!!). I would also order JH-7A fighter bombers to conduct saturated missile attacks against Taiwan's Kidd Class destroyers and other naval assets of the ROC.

We need more players playing for the ROC. BD Popeye, Gollevanein, etc. please join.

swimmerXC

12-27-2005, 12:25 AM

sumdud

12-27-2005, 12:30 AM

swimmerXC

12-27-2005, 12:36 AM

Uh, this is getting crazy, should we report our roles and assets first?
Crazy and MiG are both grabbing JH-7As.

As for AIM-120, it's 2008, maybe Taiwan has the AIM-120s in their hands. But don't count on the 8 diesel subs I'd say.

do they even have enough ammo to DEFEND and ATTACK? :coffee:
well if it's 2008, then i dips VARYAG!!!! :p :china:

pathfinder

12-27-2005, 12:51 AM

The scenario was wrong to start with. First it stress that ROC's strike was successfully, which is highly unlikely given the level of readiness mainland forces in the area. Secondly, all of Taiwan's airspace are constantly monitored by long range sensors deployed by mainland, any massive air movement would be picked up the minute it left the ground and interceptors would be on their way. In that sense, we need to go back to the drawing board and re-think the scenario over.

Now that I've mentioned the flaws in Utlore's tactics, let's look at it from a political point of view. Taiwan declares independence and expect military aid from the United States is foolish to say the least. Whatever international support oo sympathy the independence movement might have will be lost the moment it attacks mainland. United States supports the current status quo between the two sides, not independence. The odds are against Taiwan militarily and politically.

Shall we begin this over?

Fairthought

12-27-2005, 04:11 AM

Its hard to post on this scenario when it is so unrealistic.

China would simply not go to war with Taiwan in 2008. 2008 is the year that China gains alot of international prestige hosting the world Summer Olympics.

Likewise, no country would ever give a deadline for conventional war as that would just invite a pre-emptive attack. At the very least it announces when the the defender ought to be most prepared. Deadlines threatening nuclear war are an exception.

I recommend changing the timeframe to the very near future (say 2006), as this eliminates a lot of guesswork on what assets both sides would have. And throw away the deadline.

Organizing the rules would have to consider four phases:

Phase one:
each team must agree upon a defense/offense strategy.

Phase two:
each team must inform wargame arbitrers of their initial deployments, using the most up to date information we have on these two countries rosters and keeping their strategies in mind.

Phase three:
Arbitrers must decide who takes the initiative, and the circumstances wherein a war erupts based upon the deployments and stated intentions of the teams.

Phase four:
Arbitrers must determine outcome of this intiative (specifically the casualties) and inform the defender (whomever currently lacks the initiative) of the situation to solicit a reaction

Further phases of the game are just a repeat of phase four: arbitrers must determine the outcome of each reaction and solicit the counter-reaction until either both sides lose the initiative (stalemate) or one side is declared the loser.

Now for this to work the Arbitrers must be the supreme judge and jury of the game and these arbitrers must be the most knowledgeable and experienced in both military operations and equipment. I recommend the Forum moderators for this role, the more the better. The forum mods already have a hierarchy among them anyways, so decision making is simplified.

Not so simple is decision making among the two opposing teams. Ultimately, somebody has to be in charge of each side. No doubt this will stir a lot of conflict and debate. I for one want no leading role, just a position to observe. I suspect, if this wargame transpires, that it will be the first of a series.

Oh, one last thing, each team must maintain secrecy! Especially in phase one and two. How they wish to dicuss amongst themselves and communicate orders to the arbitrers without revealing their plans must be pre-determined. emails, and private chatrooms will be needed. This message board should primarily be reserved for the arbitrers as it is a public channel.

Posting a regular update, including a map of the region with battlelines, would be very entertaining for the readers of this forum.

utelore

12-27-2005, 09:29 AM

I have launched 5 707 airbuses. it will be announced that these aircraft are taking forigners out of the ROC. these aircraft will skirt Japan then head towards Tianjin. This is called operation Devine wind 2. these aircraft each are loaded with 4 tons of TNT. The mission is to attack the Shipping berths at Tianjin. The same mission will be conducted with 2 707 against the main naval base at Haikou. They will claim they are heading at first to the Philippines. The pilots are current cancer patients who family will be given 1million in gold coin.

crazyinsane105

12-27-2005, 11:49 AM

Yes, I think that it will be time to announce our roles. Mig said that he is the commander of the PLAN and so is Sumdud. Well, I'll be in command of China's air force, defense system, and missile command (others can "share command" of my assets if they wish). Someone else can take on China's land forces. Also utelore, those civilian airlines would be shot down miles before they even reach their targets by either SAMs or aircraft. Trust me, as the commander of Chinese air defense system, I am not going to allow any unidentified plane even near the Chinese naval airbases or any other military asset and the international community would understand my actions very well.

Also, let's say the ROC does have Aim-120's, but not in very large numbers. I guess the game should be more even then.

utelore

12-27-2005, 02:13 PM

GERAT my airbus feint seems to have gotten you attention. I have now launch 34 F-16 and 45 IDF against various oil uploading termanals and coastal storage sites using maverick missiles. I have also moved a merchantship that has been made to look like a PRC merchantman. These ships will cary 2 cobra attack Helo with Hellfire, A airdefence and special forces Unit that have launched an attack on the Port city of Beihai near Vietnam. the Two hundred special forces will be dressed like Chineese Civ/PAP and Army. The mission will be to split up once ashoar into 20 man hunter killer teams. They will take controll of larger buildings near the city center and kill as many PRC responce forces as they can. The cobras will go to street level operations about 12 feet off of ground and invert towards the sea and attack targets of oppertunity. The Merchant ship will also will dock near the largest ship tending pier and with more than 20 1,000lbs aircraft bombs and more than 200 155mm Arty rounds set to detonate together once all SF units have departed the ship. The Huge mushroom cloud can be seen for miles and has caused great concern for the populace in the area. some of the special forces that have landed near Beihai are equip with 60mm morters with none lethal High strenth CS gas rounds these rounds will be fired into parts of the city and give the impression of nerve agent being used to cause unholy panic in the city and hopfully make the responding troops go into MOP gear to cause further distress..

adeptitus

12-27-2005, 03:24 PM

-_-;; You guys need to agree on what military assets are avail to both sides in 2008 first. Also, it's unrealistic to assume all air and naval assets are avail. Some will be undergoing refit/maintenance.

Here's a list of recent military procurements by the ROCAF:
http://www.taiwanairpower.org/contracts.html

Currently, as of Dec 2005, the ROCAF is known to have 120 AIM-120 AMRRAM's and 58 Harpoon's in its inventory. These are air-launched weapons intended for use by F-16's, and does not include other Harpoon missiles in ROC inventory, such as those owned by the Navy.

The US has consented to sell the AGM-88C HARM missile to ROCAF, however NONE has been delivered to date. The US is also still undecided on exporting JDADM to ROCAF. If the ROC player wants to use HARM, there is a domestic TC-2A variant:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/local/archives/2000/09/08/52446

For air to ground weapons, the US as delivered some GBU-12 500lb paveway & GBU-10 2,000 lb bombs in the past. The US also sold 48 LAU-117 Maverick launchers for ROCAF F-16's, as well as 40 AGM-65G Maverick missiles in 2001 (note: Taiwan has existing inventory of older AGM-65B Mavericks originally purchased for F-5E's). The US has also released the software code to ROCAF to enable land-attack capability for the air-launched Harpoons, aka "Coastal Target Suppression mod" with GPS guidance. Note: this is not the Harpoon block II upgrade kit. The US did agree to sell 32 Harpoon block II's with the 4 Kidd class ships, but there's no verification that the air-launched versions in ROCAF inventory are block II vairants.

I'll cover ROCAF, ROCN aviation, & ROCA aviation assets briefly here:

IDF fighters:
AIDC is known to have manufacturered 4 IDF prototypes, 102 F-CK-1A fighters, and 28 F-CK-1B trainers. 1 prototype, 1 F-CK-1A, and 2 F-CK-1B have been lost to crashes. The primary weapons equipped on IDF fighters are TC-1 and TC-2 missiles. The IDF is also known to be able to launch HF series AShM's.

F-16A/B block 20:
The ROCAF received 120 F-16A and 30 F-16B's from the US, equipped with AN/APG-66(v)3 radar, and munitions stock of 600 AIM-7M Sparrow and 900 AIM-9M sidewinders in original purchase. Since then the ROCAF also took delivery of 48 LAU-117 Maverick launchers, 40 AGM-65G's, 120 AIM-120's, 58 AGM-84A's, plus assorted upgrade variants of the AIM-7 and AIM-9.

The ROCAF suffered 2 F-16A and 2 F-16B crashes. All 4 aircraft are considered total loss/withdrawn from service.

Dassault Mirage 2000-5:
ROCAF took delivery of 48 single seat Mirage 2000-5Ei and 12 two-seat Mirage-2000-5Di's in 1992, along with munitions stock of 960 MICA and 480 Magic-II missiles, plus some DEFA 554 gun pods for the 2 seater vairant.

The ROCAF suffered 1 Mirage-2000-5Ei and 2 Mirage 2000-5-Di crashes, all 3 aircraft have been written off.

Northrop/AIDC F-5E/F:
The ROCAF took delivery of approx. 242 F-5E's and 66 F-5F's since 1974. Some were imported from the US, others locally assembled by AIDC. About 1/3rd of the F-5 fleet were lost or have been withdrawn from service (i.e. static display at schools and parks, not in reserve/not combat capable).

In 2005 the ROCAF reduced their active F-5E/F squadrones from 6 down to 3. The remaining F-5E/F's in service are used primarily for training, but are still combat-capable. The ROCAF F-5E/F's are equipped with AIIM-9P4 sidewinders, AGM-65B, GBU-10/12, LAU-3/60 guided bombs, rocket pods, plus a large assortment of unguided bombs.

For "war game" purposes, we could assume that, out of 308 F-5E/F's the ROCAF received, 128 have been written off (some were given away, such as the 12 sent to Paraguay in 1998), 90 are non-operational/long term storage, and 90 are currently in use for training/reserve units.

AIDC has a Tiger-2000 upgrade program that had much speculation over the years. Like the J-8 in PLAAF used as test bed, AIDC used a F-5E with fuselage TC-2 missile rail to test the TC-2 missile, leading to speculation that the Tiger 2000 program may incorporate GD-53 radar and TC-2 missile capability. However at this time there is no proof that the Tiger 2000 project is even active.

AIDC AT-3 trainers
ROCAF received 60 dual-seat AT-3 jet trainers from AIDC in 1980's. ROCAF fighter pliots are given approx. 110 hours of flight training in the AT-3 trainer. So far 10 have been lost to accidents, and 2 have been upgraded with APG-66T radar upgrade and can carry 2x HF-2 missiles. AIDC also made 2 "XA-3" attacker vairants based on AT-3 for ROCN, but ROCN declined to purchase any.

For our "war gaming" purpose, the ROC player could convert some additional AT-3's to AShM capability in 2006-2008. However if the timeline is 2006, then the total number of converted trainers would be very limited.

Northrop Grumman E-2T Hawkeye
ROCAF currently operates 4 E-2T and 2 E-2T 2000 Hawkeye early warning aircraft. One E-2T crashed but was reported to have been repaired and returned to active service.

The E-2T is reported to be able to track more than 2,000 targets and guide interception of 40 hostile targets at ranges over 550km. The aircraft has operational range of 300 km / 4 hours 30 min on station.

Other ROCAF assets
ROCAF also operates a number of Beech 1900C, Fokker 50, T-34C, and C-130 aircraft. One Lockheed Martin C-130HE is known to have been modified by CSIST for EW and SIGINT missions. The project was referred to as "Tien Gan" and the aircraft is reported to have the capability to jam PRC air defense radars (unconfirmed).

==============

ROCN (Naval) aviation

Northrop Grumman S-2T
The ROCAF received a total of 25 S-2E and 7 S-2G aircraft, of which 27 were converted to S-2T standard and transferred to ROCN command. The S-2T upgrade includes engine swap, increased payload, AN/AQS-92F, A/NARR-84, Litton AN/APS-504 radar, AN/ASQ-504 magnetic anomaly detector, AN/AAS-40 FLIR. etc. (basically, stuff to help you find a submarine).

To date, 1 S-2T has been lost to crash, and of the 26 S-2T remaining, only 50% are reported to be operational at any time, with the other half in reserve or maintenance.

Hughes 500MD/ASW Defender
The ROCN purchased 12 Hughes 500MD/ASW defender in the 1980's, plus an additional unarmed trainer. There have been 5 crashes, which resulted in total loss of 3 aircraft, with the other 2 repaired and returend to service.

The Hughes 500MD/ASW helo is equipped with ASQ-81C magnetic anomaly detector and 1 or 2 mk44 or mk46 torpedos. These are light ASW helos, Hughes built 26, 12 for Taiwan and 14 for Spain. The ROCN variant has a radar as well as sonar, and can carry up to 2 torpedos, but usually only 1 to increase mission range up to 500km. These helos can also carry ASW sinking bombs, or converted for land attack missions with gun pods, grenade launchers, and TOW missiles.

Sikorsky S-70C Thunderhawk
The ROCN received 20 S-70C's, of which 2 were lost of accidents, and 1 replacement was purchased. These S-70C's are ASW variants with An/AQS-18(v)3 sonar, AN/APS-143(v)3 radar, and 3 external bomb racks that can be used with Mk46 torpedos or 120 gallon drop tanks.

===========

ROCA (Army) Aviation

Bell AH-1W Supercobra
The ROCA Aviation's primary offensive asset is the Bell AH-1W Supercobra. 63 were purchased with 1 lost to accident. The AH-1W were delivered with 1,000 AGM-114C hellfire anti-tank missiles 240 AGM-114K3 Hellfires, and 300 AIM-9S sidewinders, plus an unknown quantity of BGM-71 TOW missiles.

The ROCA AH-1W's have been upgraded with the NTSF-65 night targetting system for all weather combat. The AH-1W is equipped with M197 triple barrel 20mm cannon, and can be equipped with rocket pods, hellfire, TOW missile, & sidewinders. Each AH-1W can carry up to 16 anti-tank missiles.

Bell OH-58D Kiowa Warrior
The ROCA Aviation received 39 OH-58D, of which 1 was lost of accident. These were purchased to replace the 6 OH-6A in helo observation units. These scout helos can also be equipped with gun pods, rocket pods, AGM-114 hellfires, and TOW missiles. Each OH-58D can carry up to 4 anti-tank missiles.

Bell/AIDC UH-1H Iroquois
AIDC locally assembled 118 UH-1H helos for the ROCA, of which 4 were lost of accidents. Prior to obtaining the AH-1W, the ROCA fitted the UH-1H with rocket pods (M260?) produced by CSIST and machineguns. A number of used UH-1H's have been donated to Paraguay and Panama.

Boeing CH-47SD Chinook
ROCA opeates 9 CH-47SD heavy lift helos. Each helo can transport up to 55 troops, or with 27,686 lbs of cargo.

=======================

Now if someone would type up PLA assets avail for the theatre? No, the PRC is unlikely to go to war in 2008, BUT for pro-TI factions it may be a good, high-profile period to declare TI. If the ROC military wants to do a pre-emptive strike against PLA assets, please do not forget land-based AShM's and LACM's that can be launched from Kinmen and Matsu. Also, AIM-120's are not the only BVR missiles in ROCAF inventory. There's also AIM-7's, TC-2's, and MICA.

For anyone interested, here's a good source on PLA air assets:
http://china-military.org/index.htm
http://china-military.org/units/plaaf_org.htm

adeptitus

12-27-2005, 06:16 PM

The ROC still lacks a BVR capability so they will be taking tremendous losses. My AWACs will provide consistent coverage of the air war and attacks against my naval assets would not go unpunished. I would be able to coordinate with great precision counterattacks that would make the ROC lose even more aircraft using combinations of aircraft, SAMs, and air defense destroyers. And since the ROC doesn't have a reliable BVR capability (those Aim-120's would be more useful if they weren't in Hawaii), ROC aircraft would face some huge losses. The ROC won't be able to conduct offensive operations after such massive losses and would have to conduct air defense instead.

Next, it would be time to take out Taiwan's air defense system. My side has a very capable SEAD missiles (the Kh-59 and any other future variant). Furthermore, many of Taiwan's PAC-3 batteries would be engaged trying to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles and cruise missiles which would probably number in the hundreds. Also, Taiwan would have to face the wrath of my Harpy missiles. I would continue to aggresively attack Taiwan's remaining aircraft, hit ground based radar systems with cruise missiles, and try to cripple Taiwan's air defense system using my own deadly HARMs (and I have plenty of these missiles HAHAHAHA!!!!). I would also order JH-7A fighter bombers to conduct saturated missile attacks against Taiwan's Kidd Class destroyers and other naval assets of the ROC.

1) The US released the AIM-120C's after PLAAF started taking delivery of Su-30's & AA-12's in 2001. All 120 missiles were reported to have been delivered by 2003:
http://english.people.com.cn/200112/12/eng20011212_86505.shtml
http://www.f-16.net/news_article905.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/taiwan/2002/20020712141419.htm

2) The ROCAF has BVR capability through AIM-7, AIM-120, MICA, and TC-2. ROCAF conducted the first successful MICA BVR test-fire (vs. drone target @57km) outside of France.

The first TC-2 BVR-capable missiles were active radar guided, later upgraded variants adds mid course guidance, passive mode, and fire and forget modes. There's also an anti-radiation vairant (like the HARM missile) of the TC-2A:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/local/archives/2000/09/08/52446

3) The ROCAF does operate 4 E-2T and 2 E-2T 2000 Hawkeye aircraft as AEW&C aircraft. They're reported to be able to track more than 2,000 targets, and guide interception of up to 40 hostile targets up to 550km. I donno if you'd qualify this as ROCAF's "AWACS" platform.

4) ROC's SAM units are under 3 different commands (!). The missile command controls 3 batteries of PAC-2 (160km range), 6 batteries of Sky Bow I (100km range) & Sky Bow II (200km range), and 20 batteries of Hawk SAM's (40km range). No PAC-3 systems have been delivered (yet). The ROCAF controls ground based Sparrow SAM's, and ROC Army has their own SAM units.

The ROC missile-defense network can intercept a limited number of missiles from the PRC side. However against a large saturated attack, it'd be impossible to defend against every incoming missile, so they'd have to select critical areas to defend and leave the others to fend for themselves.

Here's an interesting article on SAM missile range:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/missiles/sam.html

5) On JH-7A, according to china-military.org, PLAN aviation currently operates the following JH-7 & JH-7A divisions:
East Sea Fleet - 6th division, 16th Regiment at Shanghai Dachang & 17th REgiment at Yiwu are equipped with JH-7
South Sea Fleet - 9th Division, 27th Regiment at Ledong, equipped with JH-7A
http://china-military.org/units/naf/6ndiv/6ndiv.htm
http://china-military.org/units/naf/9ndiv/9ndiv.htm

Sinodefense web site reports XAC produced 6 prototypes, plus 12-18 JH-7's, before importing additional RR Spey engines for next bath of JH-7A's. Globalsecurity claims the PLANAF currently has ~25 JH-7 & JH-7A's in service. I think only the newer JH-7A with JL-10A PD radar can launch Kh-31 anti-radiation missiles? I donno how many JH-7A's there are in service with 27th Regiment or if older JH-7's have been ugpraded. But for a saturated attack against ROCN assets, I think the total number of JH-7/A's avail to PLANAF will be limited.

==========================================

As a side note, I noticed that in recent Taiwan invasion scenario discussions, PLAN ships equipped with HQ9 are often cited as the primary weapon against ROCAF. I'd like to note that there are currently only 2 PLAN ships (052C) are equipped with HQ9 missiles. A quick look at recent PLAN acquisitions with newer air-defense missiles, at their effective range:

Type 051C:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/051c.asp

Currently there are only 1 x Type 051C at sea trials, and expected to be commissioned in 2006. Most likely, there's a 2nd hull currently building. The 051C ship is reported to be equipped with the RIF/S-300F air defense missile, with the following specs:
http://warfare.ru/?lang=&catid=312&linkid=1732
Min. target range: 7km
Max. range vs. aircraft: 90km
Max. range vs. low-flying targets (<25 meter altitude): 25km

Generally speaking, the maximum range cited for SAM system is vs. target under optimal conditions. In real world combat situations the SAM's max interception range is affected by the target's speed, altitutde, and position. The effective range vs. low flying aircraft and AShM's are much shorter than the "max range" specs.

Type 052B:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/052b.asp

Currently the PLAN operates 2 x 052 ships, equipped with the SA-N-12/9M38 system:
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/index.aspx?p=mn00172001
The maximum effective range for this missile is often cited at 42km-50km. Other sources report the maximum effective range vs. aircraft is 38km, and vs. AShM is 20km.

Sovremenny
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/sov.asp

Currently the PLAN operates 2 Sovremenny's, with 2 more on order. The Sovremenny's air defense missile is the SA-N-7:
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1733&catid=312
Killing range vs. aircraft: 25km
Killing range vs. low-flying aircraft: 18km
Killing range vs. anti-ship missiles: 12km

Type 052C:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/052c.asp
And finally, we list the 2 x 052C's currently in PLAN service, equipped with the HQ-9 missile. The HQ-9 missile has been reported with max range of 90km to 200km. From the data provided on other SAM systems above, we can conclude that max range is not the same as effective range versus different targets at high/low altitudes.

From the data avail, PLAN only has 3 ships with long-range air defense missile systems, the 051C and 2x 052C's. Against a ROCAF aircraft armed with HF-2 missile (80km range) or Harpoons, I don't believe it''s a certainty that the PLAN ship would intercept the strike aircraft, before the aircraft reach its AShM-strike range. I think, for the PLAN, the best defense vs. ROCAF strike aircraft is still PLAAF aircraft cover.

Other PLAN ships not mentioned, I think their anti-air SAM's (HQ7?) range is too short. They may be effective vs. an incoming AShM, but lack the range to hit the strike aircraft.

adeptitus

12-28-2005, 03:33 AM

I have launched 5 707 airbuses. it will be announced that these aircraft are taking forigners out of the ROC. these aircraft will skirt Japan then

Just a quick note: 707's are made by Boeing (US) and not Airbus (EU). Taiwan does not own or operate any Boeing 707's.

If you're drafting civian airliners for this job, Taiwan has 2 major carriers, China Airlines and EVA Air. The current China Airlines fleet consists of:
9x Airbus A300-600R
6x Airbus A330-300 (+5 on order)
7x Airbus A340-300
12x Boeing 737-800
33x Boeing 747-400

The current EVA air fleet consists of:
10x Airbus A3309-200 (+1 on order)
9x Boeing 747-400 Combi
6x Boeing 747-400
3x Boeing 747-400F
2x Boeing 767-300ER (to be retired in 2006)
3x Boeing 777-200LR on order
2x Boeing 777-300ER (+10 on order)
14x Boeing MD-11
5x Boeing MD-90-30

Sczepan

12-29-2005, 02:55 PM

After 3 days off high political conversation the US - out off Guam - stoped all Ships to and out off chinese harbours and turned them to Japan.
"Its only to safe zivil and trading ships in the conflict."
So the chinese harbours ar blocked.
The US also - out off Diego Garcia - started to enter all ships in the Indian Ozean which ar loaded to chinese buyers.
The supply situation off Petrol and Electricity in China could become critical.

Sczepan

12-29-2005, 09:25 PM

all non-chinese citizens ar ordered to leave the crisis aerea.
"WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN CHINESE AFFAIRS, BUT WE HAVE TO SAVE OUR CITIZENS!" german chanceller Merkel sad.
Hundreds of zivil Aeroplanes ar chartered to evacuat these people out from Bejing, Shanghai, GZ and HK International airport.

Did Bejing accept international flights to Taiwan?
The foreign citizens have Order to wait in Taibai and Jilong (Japanese, US-Citizens), Tainan (Europeans) and Gaoxiong (all other Nations).
The Japanese fleet is going to be concentrate near Okinawa, Aussis and all other Nations (without US), which have Navy ships arround the area, ar going to Subic Bay to wait for evacuations order. They should escort evacuation ships outside of national chinese waters.

Two US CBGs ar going to patrol inside of Formosa Street, between 22' N, 118' E and 28' N, 124' E. "We have to save and support the Evacuation of non chinese Citizens out from Taiwan", Vize Adm. Potter sad.
A US amphibious evacuation fleet is going to be concentrate near Tungsha Tao Island. This fleet should collect all amphibious ships of western pacific and indian ozean.

Some chinese fishermans told, they was controlled by big, non-diving US-Subs near Shantou, at 30' N, 50 miles east of Zhoushan Dao, at 122' E and 35' N and at 38' N, 123' E - so the chinese goverment know, that there ar US-SSNs in front of chinese harbours.

sumdud

12-29-2005, 10:50 PM

What in the, seizing oil breaks the Geneva Convention.....
and ordering non-Chinese citizens? How can you do that when they are not your possession but China's? And non-Chinese? A-hem. :nono:
That's pretty racial there........

And please, people, declare your possessions and role first.
(Has this thread died?)

Sczepan

12-30-2005, 04:41 AM

And non-Chinese? A-hem. :nono:
That's pretty racial there........
the non chinese citizens ar french, british, german, italian, brazil, portugese, american, canadian, aussie ... and so on people, the order is coming out of there governement.
I am only reporting outside from china and taiwan.

Todays news:
CNN reports a lot of tumults in taiwanese airports. "I wanna go home" a 16yrs old girl is crying in the camera. "Mom, where is my mom?" a 3 yrs child is seeking her mother there.
The president of US declared in the oval office:
"The UN ar not able to act. We'r saving americans everywhere!"
Embeded journalist of the US-fleet show pix of impeccable working. They ar very proud about the quick reaction of US-forces (to save americans) after chinas 72-hour ultimatum.
Only WASHINGTON POSTs headline "What did the CIA knows before?" seems to be a little bit critical.

MIGleader

12-30-2005, 01:23 PM

i order all of my mkk2s and jh-7 along with h-6s, to fly over taiwan. they immediately begin bombing any runway in sight, including larrge highways. since the raid takes place at midnight, there arnt any cars on the roads. by morning, almost the entire taiwanese airfleet(civilian and military) is grounded. the only launch places are mountain runway strips.

i wonder how the taiwanese air commander will react...

Sczepan

12-30-2005, 02:03 PM

... they immediately begin bombing any runway in sight, including larrge highways. since the raid takes place at midnight, there arnt any cars on the roads. ...midnight in Taiwan time is 05,oo afternoon WETime is 11:00 lunchtime USA East and 08:00 morining USA pacific. Its best news-time in USA and EU, all are awaik.
CNN is mixing the reports off tumults in taiwanese airports ("I wanna go home" a 16yrs old girl is crying in the camera. "Mom, where is my mom?" a 3 yrs child is seeking her mother there) actually with the sound of sirenes, lightflash and thunder (bomb droping).

....i wonder how the taiwanese air commander will react

sumdud

12-30-2005, 04:01 PM

To scezpan:
Nevermind, I thought you meant people with Chinese nationality but not ethnicity.

But you are America right? Either way, you can't order every Non Chinese-citizen out of China....
But wouldn't the News come at 7:00PM in America? People in Taiwan are asleep and so there shouldn't be anyone reporting the event right then...

But still, we need to report roles and assets first.....

swimmerXC

12-30-2005, 04:04 PM

Currently the PLAN operates 2 Sovremenny's, with 2 more on order. The Sovremenny's air defense missile is the SA-N-7:
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1733&catid=312
Killing range vs. aircraft: 25km
Killing range vs. low-flying aircraft: 18km
Killing range vs. anti-ship missiles: 12km

actually they already got the one of them..
http://www.regnum.ru/english/economy/567352.html

Sczepan

12-31-2005, 09:32 AM

To scezpan:
But you are America right? But wouldn't the News come at 7:00PM in America? People in Taiwan are asleep and so there shouldn't be anyone reporting the event right then...

But still, we need to report roles and assets first..... well, I am international journalist - I will add some news and headlines outside from both Sides of the Street.
I only report the possible informations on news about the actions of the participants.
Whenever someone is interested to take this part as american, canadian, german, french or whatever he/she may do so. I also don_t want to act as goverment.

My intention is:
the public reaction is very important. You can't play "wargames" without public reactions, which made some politicals to act.

So:
Either way, you can't order every Non Chinese-citizen out of China.........
thats a normal reaction of all goverments in a crisis. They all a calling there citizens to leave the dangerous aerea.
If there is an ultimatum from China to Taiwan, all (esp. western) goverments will order there citizens to leave the region within the ultimatum-time.
There ar needs hundereds of chartered Aeroplanes to do this job.
And there will become tumult scenes at international airports of Taiwan, when the outgoing people don_t ve enough planes. But this will be happened. China will block the Taiwanese ports very soon.

The taiwanese airports and highways was now bombed 19 hours ago. There is no reaction of Taiwanese gov.?
I will tell you the headlines of today:
CNN and all TV-News seeking the bombed locations and report out from there. You may see a lot of damage at tv. The reports ar looking for zivil damages and looking to get interviews in hospitals. The survivers ar very shocked.
Some reporters telling something about criminal commies attack, killing by night,
there is a big cry of people in zentral-us-States like Kansas, to save the american people in Taiwan and to stop these killing commies.

MIGleader

12-31-2005, 09:32 PM

kansas is too busy in its "intellegint design" lawsuits to care about taiwan.:D
the ccp also launches media adds to the west, justifying its invasion. large coorperations like walmart strongly object to u.s intervention.

meanwhile, i send the all my luda destroyers to block off taiwanese harbors, and kilos patrol the seaways. taiwan has prettty much been blockaded. all vessel comming in are either asked to redirect, or their supplies are siezed upon unloading.

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 02:00 AM

As the sun marches from east to west in the early morning hours, Americans from coast to coast rise to watch the early morning news broadcasts where they are greated with footage of bombings in and around the cities of Taiwan. Footage of protests in the streets of Taipei and Taichung break to the chaotic report of another Breaking News Flash - Several Hundreds feared dead and perhaps one thousand injured at Chingchuankang International Airport, recently converted to a dual use, military and cvilian airport, as local and international airlines working around the clock to effect evacuations of foreign nationals, were caught flat footed as estimates of up to 200 conventionally armed ballistic missiles rained down on civilian and military airport facilities all across Taiwan. The reporter, apparently Austrailian, continued her talk of the events while her cameran panned across the tarmac and steadied his camera on facility firefighters finishing off the last flames from the charred remains of a Northwest Airlines 747-400ER. Emergency Medical crews meandered about with no real job to do as the few surviors had been evacuated to area hospitals. The aircraft had been taxiing inline taking turn to take off for it's mostly American passenger's long journey home to LAX in Los Angelos, Kahlifornia. Just behind the smoldering 747 was an American Airlines 777 with substantial damage to the cockpit area and a collapsed nose gear, melted from the spreading fuel and flames from the Northwest aircraft. Etched into the minds of most Americans that morning were the final words of the Australian reporter as she struggled to finish that the aircraft, with not an empty seat, had a capacity of 410 passengers and 14 crew, and all but a handful lost. Next was a brief from and ROCAF spokesperson stating that several squadrons of PLA fighters attempted to cross the straight in attempted bombing runs in what in turn was a bloody night for both sides of the straight with heavy losses to both the attacking and defending forces.

The Today Show had retired Air Force Brigader General Eben Ladd explaining the vast stockpile of China's short range balistic missiles targeted at many facilities on Taiwan. As he explained that the PLA had amassed over 700 missiles across the strait in a conventional blackmail, he also mentioned that the targetting of Airport Facilites in Taiwan had been long planned for by the PLA. He next brought up the Google Earth console to coordinates 24 deg 16'05 N, 120 degrees 37'22 East to bring up CCK airport, the scene of much of the early morning destruction. He then moved the console cusror, engaged the split screen mode, and went to 40-22'13 N, 99-53'36 E, high in the norther regions of China, just south of the boder with Mongolia, to what he called a secret Chinese Missile facility, which nearby, etched in the hard sand was an exact layout of the Chingchuankang International Airport with the faint marks of craters surrounding the mock-up of the airport. He then went into a long drone about the previous, declassified discussions on potential use of Chinese bailitic missiles agains facilities across Taiwan.

Washington, District of Columbia, USA

In the House of Representatives, the Minority Leader had worked himself into one of his better sound bites as he and the House Majority Leader, together demanded that the President file protest in the UN Assembly against the Chinese Mainland attacks against civilian facilities with little apparent regard to human life. The Minority Leader, a former Naval Aviator, also quipped that perhaps the President should consider moving the two Carrier Battle Groups into the area to provide protection of all Americans and other foreign nationals as they evacuate and perhaps to inplace a tripwire to prevent further acceleration of a war that no one will want...

(sorry for the story but had to add a little drama for my plot twist :) )

The President of the United States has requested that all forces immediately retire their home soil on either side of the Taiwan Strait and that he was discussing what measures, political and military, could be implemented to stop futher escalation. His last statement hinted that American Forces may come to the defensive aid of the Republic of China.

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 02:20 AM

In conference between the President of the US and the Prime Minister of Japan, it is agreed that American Air Force units stationed at Kadena AFB can extend their patrols up to the Taiwan Straight.

Pentagon Planners discuss options and assets. Air Combat Command issues a deployment watch for the 27th Fighter Squadron, newly settling in with their new F22 Raptor fighters, for potential rapid deployment overseas. Other assets on Guam increase alert status including 8 CALCM equipped B-52H BUFFs on rotation from Barksdale AFB in Louisiana and 6 B-1 bombers from Dyess Air Force Base, Texas. The KittyHawk carrier battle group is making way from Yokosuka, Japan a nd the Stennis Battle Group somewhere north east of Guam.

Twelve F15 fighters, supported by one E3 Awacs and 2 KC 135 Tanker aircraft (in turn defended by another 6 F15 fighter aircraft) are patrolling the airspace east and northeast of Taiwan. One flight of four is patroling east of the Chinese Mainland but maintaing position on a line two hundred km east of Fuzhou and 100 km north of Taiwan, one flight of four 400 lm due east of Hangzhou. Six AIM-120C AMRAAMS and two sidewinder AIM-9X hang from each Eagle...

(OK - going to bed now - going fishing in the morning - any of you like to fish??)

Sczepan

01-01-2006, 07:17 AM

seacarft, good points
....It is May 2008...
in 2008 the USS KITTY HAWK (CV-63)
http://navysite.de/cvn/cv63_12.jpg
http://navysite.de/cvn/cv63_13.jpg
http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/ http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/ carriing approx. 85 planes was going to be replaced by the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (CVN-73).
http://navysite.de/cvn/cvn73_21.jpg
http://navysite.de/cvn/cvn73_16.jpg
http://navysite.de/cvn/cvn73.html carriing approx. 85 planes
After 5 Days of Ultimatum and now bombing taiwanese targets both CBGs are now in the position to take place in the street.

The news headlines in USA are
"SAFE OUR AMERICANS - THE PRESIDENT HAVE TO ACT NOW !!!"

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 08:53 AM

seacarft, good points

in 2008 the USS KITTY HAWK (CV-63)

was going to be replaced by the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (CVN-73).

bombing taiwanese targets both CBGs are now in the position to take place in the street.

Thanks - I wasn't sure if we were 06 or 08

I also do not think the US would put it's carriers in the strait - far more suicidal than even in the Gulf... I would suspect that they would remain a hundred or so east of the island...

Ender Wiggin

01-01-2006, 10:43 AM

It would appear that noone has taken Command of PLA forces, I would like to take command of it, I'm far more knowledgeable of the PLA then of the PLAAF or PLAN.

What I suggest is that the two teams should plan things out, I suggest Team Red (PRC) all go on either a teamspeak voice chat server or go on msn and plan things out and Team Blue (ROC/ maybe USA/ maybe Japan) should do similar.

my msn email is sid_meier@hotmail.com, everyone should get either a gmail or hotmail account, or if everyone on TR can get a microphone I suggest teamspeak since quite obviously I can garner that we can all speak english.

Sczepan

01-01-2006, 01:17 PM

I also do not think the US would put it's carriers in the strait - far more suicidal than even in the Gulf... I would suspect that they would remain a hundred or so east of the island...
I don't know what the US really ar duing - I just report the news, given by embeded journalists (which means, they don't tell everything and they could got wrong informations).
But in the past, in crisis US carriers patrolled inside the strait - that could have some reasons:
- to be attacked (which is a reason to US for going in war)
- to be a shield between the mainland and the island
may be, USS KITTY HAWK (which should be scrapped in 2008) is patrolling inside the street (throw out a lure), and USS GEORGE WASHINGTON is located east of Taiwan.

It's the job of PLAN or PLAAF to detect them.

edit: did you 've a good fishing? I like to eat them, but I can't kill ....

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 02:13 PM

I don't know what the US really ar duing - I just report the news, given by embeded journalists (which means, they don't tell everything and they could got wrong informations).
But in the past, in crisis US carriers patrolled inside the strait - that could have some reasons:
- to be attacked (which is a reason to US for going in war)
- to be a shield between the mainland and the island
may be, USS KITTY HAWK (which should be scrapped in 2008) is patrolling inside the street (throw out a lure), and USS GEORGE WASHINGTON is located east of Taiwan.

It's the job of PLAN or PLAAF to detect them.

edit: did you 've a good fishing? I like to eat them, but I can't kill ....

I don't see the US ever putting the carriers downb the strait right now - no need to for tactical situations, and stupid in light of new PRC weapons. Sure, standoff capability has improved for the US since 96 - when carriers were politically sent into the strait - but so has the PRC standoff capability improved much since 96. So why would the US not play to it's strength of making war over greater distance and and instead allow itself to play into the PRC's best hand in the confined waters of the strait? Nahh - awfully hard to play hide and seek with a carrier or two in the Taiwan Strait. Better to stay in deep water East, SE or NE of Taiwan and outside of the first island chain where you can have the incluence of additional US assets...

No, did not go fishing yet, was 3 inches of snow on the ground this morning, but might go in a couple hours :) . I appreciate the eat but not kill. On the otherhand, a fish caught and handled personally wil be significantly fresher than anything purchased in the store :D . Those that I do not eat are returned as safe as can be back into the sea...

crazyinsane105

01-01-2006, 02:46 PM

A high alert has been issued to the PLAAF command: the Americans are threatning to intervene in the Taiwan Strait Crisis. The PLAAF now has two objectives: continue to target military installations inside Taiwan and help defend the homeland against any air attacks by American forces. My S-300 and even some S-400 hundred batteries (I have only several S-400 batteries since China started to take deliveries of such missiles from Russia earlier this year) are positioned around major cities, C4ISR assets, and airfields. My FT-2000 and FT-2000A's are coupled with the S-300 and 400 batteries as to protect from any jamming aircraft the Americans may employ. My AWAC aircraft are on full alert and satellites are watching the carriers every step of the way. I have many BVR capable aircraft and the less sophisticted ones (the J-8 series for example) are going to be used primarily as interceptors. The Su-27's and Su-30's along with the J-10's will be used against Taiwan, but I move several squadrons away from the Taiwan front and position them to protect sensitive installations inside the homeland. Even though there will be less planes available for the Taiwan front, Taiwan's military has been crippled and reduced to a purely defensive force (and they aren't able to conduct a proper defense either since many of there SAMs have been targeted and destroyed by my Kh-59's).

I begin to move some M-11 ballistic missiles away from the Indian border and start to have them shipped to the Taiwan strait thus adding more available resources. I have no fear that India will become involved in this conflict so that is why I have made such a move.

Sczepan

01-01-2006, 04:02 PM

I've got some news:
A task force of Royal Australian Navy (see more at http://www.navy.gov.au/ships/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Australian_Navy ) including HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla, the 5,800 tonnes heavy lift ship HMAS Tobruk and all six LCHs is starting ouf of Darwin, Cairns and Sydney today.
They are escortet by 5 RAN ANZACs and 3 Adelaide Class Guided Missile Frigates (FFG).

The Australian Gov. say, they are on the way to SUBIC BAY, Philippines to http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/subic_bay.htm http://www.subicbaypi.com/ http://www.sbma.com/ to
- meet a task group of the Royal New Zealand Navy Fleet
http://www.navy.mil.nz/visit-the-fleet/default.htm
- support the evacuation of Commonwealth Citizenz out of Taiwan.

The Philippinian Gov. declared to open SUBIC BAY for SAR operations in the conflict.
There are conferences between the President of the US, Australian, New Zealand and EU Gov. and the Pres. of the Philippines (bargain the price of opening SUBIC BAY for military uses).

EDIT: HOT NEWS from NEW ZEALAND:
F77 Te Kaha, F111 Te Mana and A11 Endeavour (III) Fleet Replenishment Ship, the new Multi-Role Vessel http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/5116/nzpart6/mrv_l01.jpg and the new Offshore Patrol Vessel http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/5116/nzpart6/opv_p01.jpg
ar leaving Devonport Naval Base, Auckland.

MIGleader

01-01-2006, 06:27 PM

im not too concerned about foreign ships evecuatiing taiwanese citiznes, for i too am eager to avoid civilian casuaties. but just as a precaution, i will dispach a small flotilla of warships headed by 167 into taiwanese ports. they will inspect all incomming ships, and maintain order in the ports. this is to ensure no "contraband" is smuggled into taiwan.

also, the ccp high command decrees taiwanese sea lanes and ports are closed for shipping(as china still owns taiwan, so it owns the sea lanes). any ship entering will be boarded or blasted out of the water.

now, its time to call in my own cbg. i assemble a carrier task force made up of varyag, 2 52cs, 2 51cs, 2 54as, 2 new large replenishment ships, and 6 of my new yuans sporting aip. my flagship is the varyag. i sail out north east to meet the american fleet.

meanwhile, i have phoned admiral popov of the russian pacific fleet. he will send in a group made up of kutznesov, 3 sovremennys, one kirov, one slava, 4 amurs, and a victor III. backfires take off from both russian and chinese bases to attack the american cvbg.

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 09:23 PM

1) the Varyag will not be OPERATIONAL in 2008, certainly not as something able to conduct fixed wing flight operations and certainly not an offensive weapons platform. With a little bit of luck, it will be able to proceed under it's own power (are any engines installed yet??) to get to another harbor for systems integration or another coat of paint. As accelerated as China may be in devloping and building ships, they can't maintain the same pace with a carrier. Apples and Oranges...

2) Carrier capable aircraft - see above.

3) Carrier capable pilots - see above.

4) Do ya think Admiral Popov has the political cajones to bypass the rest of the Russian political system and sortie his fleet (which oddly would not include the Admiral K as it is in a different sea connected to a different ocean)

5) Your SAG (as the Varyag ain't no where near done) would be wisest to sail under land based air cover....

Not trying to be a butthead, but a dash of realism....

Thanks....

MIGleader

01-01-2006, 09:30 PM

Roger604

01-01-2006, 09:37 PM

hey, this is just to have some fun, so relax. the forum already agreed that the varyag is in service.

lets pretend china and russia have a defence pact, stating if one country is in conflict, the other is obliged to send aid immediately is requested.

If this scenario actually happens, I'm packing my bags and going to Baghdad for safety.

darth sidious

01-01-2006, 10:47 PM

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 11:04 PM

hey, this is just to have some fun, so relax. the forum already agreed that the varyag is in service.

lets pretend china and russia have a defence pact, stating if one country is in conflict, the other is obliged to send aid immediately is requested.

Well, then if it's both fictional and less than realistic :nana:

The president has decided, with full the concurrance of Congress, to engage in the defence of Taiwan and has authorized the Pentagon to plan and prosecute key military targets in PRC Military Districts directly engaged in action against the democratic people of the ROC, the districts facing Japan, and select command and control facilities elsewhere on the Chinese mainland necessary to facilitate the defense of Taiwan if demands for returning to the status quo are not met.

In a Video Conference with numerous allied heads of state, inluding those from Germany, Poland, Japan, France, Spain, Italy, the United Kingdon, India, Austrailia, South Korea, Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Thailand, full aggreement is obtained to demand a complete withdrawal of all forces from the strait at midnight, local time, in approximately 12 hours. While not are all in agreement to pursue military means if necessary, all agree hostilities must end immediately.

IN a rare show of unity, the leaders of France, Germany, the UK, and the US will meet in New York at the United Nations to protest the current state of affairs.

In the event that hostilites are not averted, the Pentagon is mobilizing numerous key assets and implementing first stages of pre planned "war plans".

SpaceCommand authorizes the readying of 4 Ke-Asat launch vehicles and orders the completion of 4 more anti satellite missiles.

Additional B-52H and B-ONEs deploy from Syess and Barksdale on the continental US to Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and to Anderson AFB on Guam.

The USS Jimmy Carter has entered the southern portion of the strait and the new Virginia Class SSN, the North Carolina is "creeping" silently south west towards the strait at 18 knots.

The F22 Raptors are flying to Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, for their one layover before continuing to Kadena AFB. Swuadrons of F-15C fighters and F-15E Strike Eagles are enroute Kadena from Hawaii. Tanker refueling assets are being pulled from other theaters as reserve tanker units are called up stateside.

The President is sending 4 Arleigh Burke destroyers into the Taiwan strait to "observe" the Chinese Flotilla. These ships will not be "boarded".

The Ohio class SSGN, already on station somewhere east of Taiwan will soon be joined by her sister and former ballisitc missile submarine, Georgia with an additional 154 Tomahawk, TLAMC/D, Tactial Tomahawks bringing the theater total tomahawk inventory to nearly 500 cruise missiles.

Continued patrols of F15C fighter aircraft from Kadena have had several radar and one visual contact with PLANAF aircraft without incident.

Seacraft

01-01-2006, 11:15 PM

Seacraft

you understimate the power of the DARK SIDE

china has around 700 m9/11 in 1997 not 2008 by that time china will have around 1500 missiles!!!!

also they will have 2*051d plus a Slava class crusier and atlest 1 052d ready not counting the improve 054 frigates

there will also be 4 yuan and 12 song judgeing from their production rate

additional J10/11 will also be built plus many more JH-7 and maybe backfires from russia

My Dear Sith Lord, so not underestimate the power of the Jedi Knight :rofl:

Is the Slava legit? or is this also for the not so serious, overnight procurement and training and equipment of new ships? And where does the PLAN find the officers and crew for all of these brandy spanky new ships? Not a knock by any means but you are adding a lot of new and significantly more complicated systems all across the board. With all of these new systems there probably is not enough a competent core of officers and men to train the trainer across the fleet and bring to wartine status?

Your new shiny surface fleet is a tougher nut to crack b ut a nut nonetheless and simply shouldn't venture too far from home in this scenario - much safer inside the strait...

The J10 does not have the effective range to venture too far offshore, and yourt JH7s (assming the few As that you have online) will need something with longer legs to escort them.

perhaps you will need the dark side of the force. :nana:

Und Sczepan - Meine Duetsch ist SEHR schlecht - Ich habe so viel vergessen. Aber, diese tag Ich habe dreizehn fischen anglen aber alles war zu kleine fur essen...

Hope that made sense - haven't used my Deutsh since drei und achtzig :D

darth sidious

01-01-2006, 11:36 PM

LOL

you do know about a third of the IDF and many of the F-16/marige-2000 are in storage because of the lack of skilled pilots if we count forces by training then its taiwan that I am warry about

the slava shares many componets with the soves witch china has been operating from 2000 so trained officers can be transfed

the J-10 can be refuelled in flight

also you forget the "assians mace" weapon the anti-carrier balastic missile

in the end the DARK SIDE will triumph

swimmerXC

01-01-2006, 11:37 PM

Well, then if it's both fictional and less than realistic :nana:

The president has decided, with full the concurrance of Congress, to engage in the defence of Taiwan and has authorized the Pentagon to plan and prosecute key military targets in PRC Military Districts directly engaged in action against the democratic people of the ROC, the districts facing Japan, and select command and control facilities elsewhere on the Chinese mainland necessary to facilitate the defense of Taiwan if demands for returning to the status quo are not met.

In a Video Conference with numerous allied heads of state, inluding those from Germany, Poland, Japan, France, Spain, Italy, the United Kingdon, India, Austrailia, South Korea, Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Thailand, full aggreement is obtained to demand a complete withdrawal of all forces from the strait at midnight, local time, in approximately 12 hours. While not are all in agreement to pursue military means if necessary, all agree hostilities must end immediately.

IN a rare show of unity, the leaders of France, Germany, the UK, and the US will meet in New York at the United Nations to protest the current state of affairs.

In the event that hostilites are not averted, the Pentagon is mobilizing numerous key assets and implementing first stages of pre planned "war plans".

SpaceCommand authorizes the readying of 4 Ke-Asat launch vehicles and orders the completion of 4 more anti satellite missiles.

Additional B-52H and B-ONEs deploy from Syess and Barksdale on the continental US to Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and to Anderson AFB on Guam.

The USS Jimmy Carter has entered the southern portion of the strait and the new Virginia Class SSN, the North Carolina is "creeping" silently south west towards the strait at 18 knots.

The F22 Raptors are flying to Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, for their one layover before continuing to Kadena AFB. Swuadrons of F-15C fighters and F-15E Strike Eagles are enroute Kadena from Hawaii. Tanker refueling assets are being pulled from other theaters as reserve tanker units are called up stateside.

The President is sending 4 Arleigh Burke destroyers into the Taiwan strait to "observe" the Chinese Flotilla. These ships will not be "boarded".

The Ohio class SSGN, already on station somewhere east of Taiwan will soon be joined by her sister and former ballisitc missile submarine, Georgia with an additional 154 Tomahawk, TLAMC/D, Tactial Tomahawks bringing the theater total tomahawk inventory to nearly 500 cruise missiles.

Continued patrols of F15C fighter aircraft from Kadena have had several radar and one visual contact with PLANAF aircraft without incident.

I'm the head of MSS, working with FSB and MSS assassins; I order an assassination on the President. He wakes up drinks his coffee and has a "stroke"..... the end.... your gone. Bye bye :coffee:

Roger604

01-01-2006, 11:45 PM

I'm the head of MSS, working with FSB and MSS assassins; I order an assassination on the President. He wakes up drinks his coffee and has a "stroke"..... the end.... your gone. Bye bye :coffee:

Er... wouldn't Cheney or Rumsfeld be even worse?

sumdud

01-02-2006, 01:52 AM

We are talking about a real mock war here. Varyag has not been put in service yet.

This is real, and it's later this year.

Sczepan

01-02-2006, 04:38 AM

Und Sczepan - Meine Duetsch ist SEHR schlecht - Ich habe so viel vergessen. Aber, diese tag Ich habe dreizehn fischen anglen aber alles war zu kleine fur essen...

Hope that made sense - haven't used my Deutsh since drei und achtzig :Dyour german seems to be better than my english
poor fishes - to small to eat and beeing fished with a lot of pains; hope your mad first aid and return them into the water :p

back to the game:
It is May 2008. The weather is steamy across the Taiwan strait
so in 2008 they are president elections in the USA! The crisis 2008 is before electing.

....The president has decided, with full the concurrance of Congress, to engage in the defence of Taiwan and has authorized the Pentagon to plan and prosecute key military targets in PRC Military Districts directly engaged in action against the democratic people of the ROC, the districts facing Japan, and select command and control facilities elsewhere on the Chinese mainland necessary to facilitate the defense of Taiwan if demands for returning to the status quo are not met.

In a Video Conference with numerous allied heads of state, inluding those from Germany, Poland, Japan, France, Spain, Italy, the United Kingdon, India, Austrailia, South Korea, Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Thailand, full aggreement is obtained to demand a complete withdrawal of all forces from the strait at midnight, local time, in approximately 12 hours. While not are all in agreement to pursue military means if necessary, all agree hostilities must end immediately.

IN a rare show of unity, the leaders of France, Germany, the UK, and the US will meet in New York at the United Nations to protest the current state of affairs.
..... Did the US people know that?

(If not:
the opinion poll rating ar falling rapidly, 'cause the people think, the presid. doesn't act.)

The president is offering a adressing within 6 hours.
Also the german kanzler will have a speech the same time.
The chinese ambassadors in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Sealand, UK and the US have reserved the same time in forreign ministery.

Some visitors say:
1) the west australian Navy, located in Perth, was leaving the harbour going NNW
2) Italian, French and British Navy are leaving the harbours
3) an unidentifacated Navy force was passing the Channal of Suez,going south
4) an unidentificated CBG was passing Singapore going east
5) HMS BULWARK passed Singapore going east
6) a lot of Navy ships passed the Channal of Panama, going west

WEN?

01-02-2006, 05:01 AM

umm... just asking but do u guys think the US and its allies are going to use their land forces to some effect. e.g. use them to open a second front in western china?? would be a possibilty for some forces were pulled out of the area to taiwan. (forgot what)

LongJohn79

01-02-2006, 06:33 AM

Gentlemen,

I must say that I have been VERY impressed with the discussions on this board. Compliments indeed.

This all the more because you kicked the gates wide open for a plan I've had for a long while.
IF I break a rule by doing so I appoligise, but the oportunity was just too good.

I would like to invite you to a moderated PBEM game which simulates a possible war between an alliance of the Moscow Pact (consisting of the PRC and Russia) and the Western World.

If interested please send a mail to: highmaster91@yahoo.com

NOTE 1: It takes place in 2007 and some political alliances have shifted.

NOTE 2: I am not looking for players who's attitude is: "I win because the USA is beter." or "My milions of soldiers will swamp the Taiwanese defenses." I have a sound understanding of current militairy matters and my job as a GM will be to keep things REALISTIC.

NOTE 3: Nuclear war means that ALL have lost.

John

Just wondering.

Have you folks considered the fact that if Taiwan would stage a 'pre-emptive strike' then the USA would more or less be forced to stay independant because of the public opinion?

Also, what about the UN in such a case?

Sczepan

01-02-2006, 08:00 AM

after 6 day of crisis, lets talk a little about the oeconomical results:

1) the change-rate of US-$ and all participants of the conflict was falling rapidly;

2) international shipping firms ar going to leave the crises aerea - this means the chinese coasts; they don't want to loose there ships in a conflict.
2a) as a result the chinese imports (oil) are reduced
2b) as a result the chinese exports can't be shipped
(thats without blockade of interventions troops).
2c) chinese factories like german leaded electronic company "Wickmann" (chinese "Weiwen Dianqui"), textil factorys (producing for Piere Cardin and Nike...., Ningbo), lighter factorys (Wenzhou), BenQ (producing Monitors for HP or Thomson, Suzhou) ... and a lot more can't send there goods out - so they ar going to close and send the workers home.

3) after a first run to shop stocks most stores in Australia, EU and USA don't got more goods
3a) Wal-Mart, which import a lot of goods, is nearly sold-out
3b) also "non chines made" products can't be produced more. For example the "Sonicare Elite 7000" electrical tooth-brush, is produced with taiwanese batterys and chinese made platines and cooper-coils.

4) The international producents ar looking to open replacements. They ar in negotiations esp. with Brazil, Indian and (South-)African companies, also national american and european factorys ar going to produce substitutes ....

Also, what about the UN in such a case?
hectic negotiations;
China or USA vetoing each of the results;

Seacraft

01-02-2006, 10:16 AM

your german seems to be better than my english
poor fishes - to small to eat and beeing fished with a lot of pains; hope your mad first aid and return them into the water :p No, your English is significantly better than my German. Ich aheb drei jahre ins Stuttgart gehwont - drei un achtzig bis sechs und ahctzig - Amerikanishe Gymnasium/Hoch Schule....

As for the fish - they don't feel the pain as we and other mammals would feel pain - they do not have the nervous system for that, and contrary to what the PETA folks would have have you think, lobsters don't scream when you cook them.... Also back to the game :)

so in 2008 they are president elections in the USA! The crisis 2008 is before electing.

Did the US people know that? -
YES, the US people were outraged, as much for the images of the burning 747 as the invasion of another free "country" (as Taiwan is often viewed as by the American people). This is also on the eve of the Bejing Olympics... But I am confused as we still appear in May 2006 or May 2008 - do we split the difference and say May 07?? :D

The president is offering a adressing within 6 hours.
Also the german kanzler will have a speech the same time.
The chinese ambassadors in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Sealand, UK and the US have reserved the same time in forreign ministery.

For the first time in a long time, the message is clear: "End Hostilities - do not allow for escalation" "A Battle in the Strait serves no one"..

umm... just asking but do u guys think the US and its allies are going to use their land forces to some effect. e.g. use them to open a second front in western china?? would be a possibilty for some forces were pulled out of the area to taiwan. (forgot what)

Nope, other than possible special forces units in a very small mission based manner on PRC soil, possible location of foreign troops on Taiwan soil only (stationing some foreign Patriot batteriess and/or the 82nd Airborne / Marine EU) and even that is a stretch. No country would in its right mind look to want to invade mainland china - just not doable (as it is not doable for someone to invade the US, Canada, Aus, Russia, etc). It is also not necessary as the goal is to keep the PRC from forcibly assimilating the ROC. The goal is to allow for peaceful and SELF determined unification in the future.

Have you folks considered the fact that if Taiwan would stage a 'pre-emptive strike' then the USA would more or less be forced to stay independant because of the public opinion?
I think Taiwan employing a Pre-emptive strike in the first place is ludicrous as that will certainly diminish any world support, particularly that of the US - not to mention nullifying any treaty / defense acts. Partly why - in this game - I had to come up with a sufficient reason that other nations would come to aid Taiwan. The airport raids that inadvertantly killed many civilians.

Seacraft

01-02-2006, 11:16 AM

LOL

you do know about a third of the IDF and many of the F-16/marige-2000 are in storage because of the lack of skilled pilots if we count forces by training then its taiwan that I am warry about

They are also in storage because of the natural weather effects that impacts the condition of the planes - of course this happens to both coastal regions on obth sides of the straits, complicatiing maintenance and reliability of BOTH air units. And those missing skilled pilots have left their training facilities at Luke AFB in Arizona (where half of the world trains it's military pilots, German, Saudi, ROC, JDSF for example) and are ferrying their aircraft (less the 4 ac down for maintenance issues) on the 7000 mile journey from Luke AFB to dispersal fields on Taiwan, makeshit highway sections (can't bomb or BM every 200 feet of highway). It is a long go but the ROCAF in the process of bringing nearly two additional squadrons of F16A (upgraded to F16C equivalent) and Mirage 2000 aircraft back in theater. Thankfully, the US has collected all of it's tanker units not utilized in critical missions in other parts of the world, and has amassed a force of nearly 80 high speed and 15 low speed (HC130) tanker aircraft to support this mass deployment of aircraft.

In a stunning case of deploying radically new aircraft, the sole ABL 747, having just completed COIL test somewhere between Los Angelos and Las Vegs :rofl: , and manned by a part Air Force, part civilian crew, has left Edwards AFB and is heading "west".

the slava shares many componets with the soves witch china has been operating from 2000 so trained officers can be transfed

But not the naval grumble nor the Sandbox AShM

the J-10 can be refuelled in flight With what? How many tankers does the PLAAF/PLAN have now? Less than 10? Mostly converted H6 Badgers? How many more in a year or two?

also you forget the "assians mace" weapon the anti-carrier balastic missile
in the end the DARK SIDE will triumph Is this "mace" something documented? theorized? or fantacised? What is it's range and accuracy?

Sczepan

01-02-2006, 11:37 AM

... But I am confused as we still appear in May 2006 or May 2008 - do we split the difference and say May 07?? :D
....
I think wie should not change the rules; the first post was very clear:

With that in mind, let me set down some starting conditions...

It is May 2008. The weather is steamy across the Taiwan strait, and Taiwan just elected another DPP leader in another hotly disputed election. The president decides to declare independence. The PRC gives him an ultimatum... 72 hours to back down or else.

He (or she) doesn't back down.

thats was the basic of my posts, also the basic about both US-CBGs in japanese waters, the new New Zealand Navy ships and so on.

I'll send you the first edition of german chanzellors speech to your information (I think you will act as US-President).
It may be postet public within 3 hrs now.
The german chanellor is also going to speak in the name of EU president
Slowenia Januar - Juni 2008
France Juli - Dezember 2008.

Sczepan

01-02-2006, 01:55 PM

....
The president is offering a adressing within 6 hours.
Also the german kanzler will have a speech the same time.
The chinese ambassadors in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Sealand, UK and the US have reserved the same time in forreign ministery.....
the time of 6 hours is over, the german Bundeskanzler is now on TV, behind him we see a european flag.

Speech of german Bundeskanzler
Liebe Landsleute,

die Welt steht vor der größten Bedrohung des Friedens seit der Berlinkrise.
Sowjetische und Amerikanische Panzer standen sich seinerzeit mit schussbereit aufeinander gerichteten Kanonen gegenüber.
Heute stehen sich chinesische und amerikanische Truppen in derselben Position gegenüber.

Die Welt hält den Atem an.

In dieser Situation hat der Europäische Rat einmütig beschlossen, Deutschland mit einem letzten Vermittlungsversuch zu beauftragen. Ich spreche zu Ihnen also auch im Namen der slowenischen Ratspräsidentschaft und im Namen der folgenden französischen Ratspräsidentschaft.

Deutschland weiß um die Tragik der Teilung einer Nation. China, Korea und Deutschland sind in der Folge eines unseeligen, von Deutschland ausgelösten Krieges geteilt worden. Familien wurden getrennt, Eltern und Kinder auseinander gerissen. Geschwister sahen sich plötzlich auf unterschiedlichen Seiten gegenüber, die Waffen aufeinander gerichtet. Wir wissen aber auch, dass eine solche Trennung nur in Frieden und Freiheit überwunden werden kann.

Dies ist ein letzter Appell an beide Seiten an der Taiwan-Straße, miteinander zu verhandeln um gemeinsam einen Weg aus der Krise zu finden, die von beiden Seiten durch unverantwortliche Schritte verstärkt wurde.

Hunderte von Europäern und Amerikanern sind im Laufe der kriegerischen Handlungen der letzten Tage zu Tote gekommen, hunderte sind verwundet. Tausende - Männer, Frauen und Kinder - warten verzweifelt auf die Gelegenheit, Taiwan zu verlassen. In diesen Tagen stehen wir treu an der Seite unserer amerikanischen Freunde.

Die USA und andere Staaten der von den USA geführten Allianz werden in 3 Tagen beginnen, ihre Bürger aus Taiwan zu evakuieren.
Wir fordern beide Seiten an der Straße auf, alles zu unterlassen, was die Evakuierung unserer Bürger beeinträchtigt. Wir fordern beide Seiten auf, alles zu tun, um die Sicherheit und Unversehrtheit unserer Bürger zu gewährleisten.

Deutschland und Europa sind bereit, im Rahmen eines UN-Mandats den Frieden an beiden Seiten der Straße zu sichern. Die Evakuierungkräfte könnten nach Abschluss ihrer Mission in Abstimmung mit beiden Seiten an der Taiwanstraße stationiert werden, um gemeinsam den Frieden zu bewahren.

Wir sind zu gemeinsamen Gesprächen und einer Abstimmung über die von uns zu leistenden Beiträge bereit.
here we got a simultan translating:
translation of german Bundeskanzler
Dear compatriots

The world stands before the largest threat of the peace since the Berlin crisis. Soviet and American tanks stood themselves with shot ready on each other at that time vis-à-vis arranged canon. Today Chinese and American troops in the same position stand themselves vis-à-vis.

The world stops the breath.

In this situation, the European advice unanimously concluded to delegate Germany with a last settlement trial. I speak to you therefore also in the name of the slowenischen advice presidency and in the name of the following French advice presidency.
(note of translater: for more information look at http://www.bundesregierung.de/en )
Germany knows around the tragedy of the division of a nation. China, Korea and Germany were divided in the sequence of an unseeligen, by Germany of released war. Families were separated, were torn parents and children apart. Siblings saw been based suddenly on different sides vis-à-vis, the weapons on each other. We know however also that such a separation can be overcome only in peace and freedom.

This is to be found a last appeal at both sides at the Taiwan-street to negotiate together around jointly a way out of the crisis, that was reinforced by both sides by irresponsible steps.

Hundreds of Europeans and Americans came in the course of the warlike actions of the last days too dead, hundreds are wounded. Thousands - men, women and children - wait in despair for the opportunity, to leave Taiwan. In these days, we stand faithfully at the side of our American friends.

The USA and other countries of the alliance led by the USA will begin in 3 days to evacuate its citizens out of Taiwan. We request both sides at the street to omit all, what impairs the evacuation of our citizens. We request both sides to do all, in order to guarantee the security and integrity of our citizens.

Germany and Europe are ready to secure in the frame of an UN-mandate the peace at both sides of the street. The evacuation powers could be stationed after termination of its mission in voting with both sides at the Taiwanstraße in order to preserve jointly the peace.

We are to joint conversations and a voting ready over that of us to performing contributions.

The chinese ambassadors in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, New Sealand and UK (member states of EU or Commonwealth) at the same time got a note of the forreign minister of each land, which say, that the evacuation of there citizens out of taiwan will start in 3 days from now. The chinese gov. will be request to omit all, what impairs the evacuation of the forreign citizens and to do all, in order to guarantee the security and integrity of these citizens.
The ambassadors also was request to ask the chinese gov. for a real way to peace. The answer will be expectet within the 3 days from now.

I don_t know how Japan an US will act, and what the chinese ambassadors in this states ar told.

utelore

01-02-2006, 02:41 PM

CNN date line 2008.....Jamie Mcintire at the pentagon.

quote" there are pool reports that up to 4 or 5 large PRC amph warfare vessels are burning at their naval ports. Reports indicate that some sort of weapon or weapons have been used to hit these ships. The pentagon will not confirm nor will they deney that U.S cruise missiles have hit these ships in ports. We have also unconfirmed reports that one of these ships had up to 25 advanced Main battle tanks on board. But again none of this can be verified as of yet by CNN. But it does appaer from these reports that forces be it ROC or US have begun to try and degrade the PLA amp warfare ability to place troops on the Island of Taiwan

utelore

01-02-2006, 03:09 PM

Sky News Beijing Rob Wenston reporting........There Have been 6 very powerfull explosions here in Beijing to the North East and Due south about 1 to 5 miles from my Hotel. I have also seen various streaks of light heading towards the night sky which could be anti aircraft misslies or somthing of that sort......it also appears that much of Beijing is now with out power. I will continue to report as events warrant.

Ender Wiggin

01-02-2006, 03:44 PM

Hey hey! I've only begun preliminary planning of invading Taiwan no fair!

Also, WTF please explain to me how we went from "well the USA won't send help because of Taiwans preemptive strike.." to the "The Western World DOWs China" ???? I say we undo the carrier and fleet support from Russia and keep the US at arms reach, or at the very least keep NATO and the other UN nations out of it, the onyl reason why NATO troops were able to go to Korea was because Russia was boycotting the UN because of ROC's positon on the UN security council and was not there to veto it.

Russia and/or China would both veto any attempt for the west aside from the US to intervene.

Lets at least TRY to keep this realistic please?

*Begins preparing for Operation Cheng Cheng-Kung*

utelore

01-02-2006, 03:57 PM

Sky news Beijing.....Rob Winston reporting....I just recieved a report from a AP pool reporter near 25 Huangsi Avenue at the MOD command HQ for The PLA. He is reporting 10 to 15 massive explosions that were so intense that He and his fellow reports are forced to Flee the area. I am also hearing more very dull "Thumps" coming from the North East and am also hearing the sounds of Jet Aircraft moving from east to .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......DEAD AIR.

Sczepan

01-02-2006, 04:16 PM

Phone / Video Conference of the mebers of EU Rat and Commonwealth
somebody to sabotage the peace-plan of EU
Who?
Taiwan or US?? Or both?

MIGleader

01-02-2006, 04:41 PM

the chinese have a dozen of h-6 tankers and 8 il-78 tankers. quite a good bit to refuel j-10.

i repeat: chinese shipping shall not be affected either way. i have assigned jianghus to escort all merchant vessels entering or leaving chinese ports. y-8mpas routinely patrol over the strait area.

time for operation hai di long, or undersea dragon. i dispatch all of my remaining songs and kilos to start moving out in wolf packs of 3-4. they are ordered to sink all remaining vessels of the taiwanese fleet. any veesels going to taiwan caught with military weapons will also be sunk. i then send an elite ofrce of 4 yuans fitted with aip to go to the rear of the arriving u.s cvbg, to attack the supply ships.

Gollevainen

01-02-2006, 04:51 PM

As these odd news of revial to the chinese civil war reach here in finland, our politicans start slowly take notice of bigger world again and the just changed crisis-invertion act has its first testing place. Bourgorous president and first rigthwing goverment since early 90's has no 'morale' proplem to take part foreing invertions first time in our history.
As EU tremples in its general stalling preventing any other actions taken place than give tough comments over the issue, Finnish neo-cons starts feeling little conser ower their srtong investments in China and what unpredictable chaos effects it migth have to finnish economy, still taking breath after EUs trastic (but yet another popularity stunt) to cut all agricultural-benefits to its halv of the already unbearable cuttings...
As former flagship of our economy, Nokia has changed its head-office into Bejing one migth thing it has no affects our economy no longer, but lots of its main finnish stock-holders are in tigth positions in our government, they become bold. Looming nuclear war is not good prospect for the future so the 'boys' in one normal sauna-evening came up this bold paln to safe the world...

Same time some where else, a draft tickets drops out in some ordinary mailbox in little town called hameenlinna calling all reservist of the brigade2000 of Karelian brigade to perform unscheduled refereshment trainings near lansisatama in Helsinki seaport. Meanwhile under great secrecy, finnish government pays off unfinished deal of bancrupt US shiping company who premature planned setting a car-ferry line to Cuba after hoping that Castros sudden death in spring 2007 would have led a changed political situation...(it didnt, but tale of Fernando Herés and his amazing floatable giant guineabig shaped ekocars are completely another story...)
So a 300meter, 65,000 ton luxus passenger car-ferry lyes completed but useles in Aker-finnyards docks. converting it to carry a brigade size finnish expenditior force into its destination, South-china sea...
And when the reservits are told of their real reason to be called into arms, normal semi-munitious rumbling begun, but its all cleared when the officers denouced that the ship, (now renamed as Kersantti Rokka seargent peasoup??) the ship is full loaded whit luxureys to senior US citicens but upgrade to fit strong finnish needs: lots of vodka and all tax-free!!! (but lets not forget the military side, also re-enforced whit Umokhoto VSL SAM system, lots of Sako 23mm AA guns, manportable IGLA and offcourse all the equipment of the brigade including Leopard 2A4 MBTs, CV9030 IFVs, XA-180 APCs....and offcourse whole regiment of 155mm APU-powered gun-howitzers:D )

So the task force, multibly renamed to fitting different moods of the troops heads its way, trough numerous adventures (which arent descriped in here as we have children online...) but strange rumours starts to find theyr way trough the warnews into world news acencyes...some passengership opened fire whit field ganon(??) towards passing oil tanker, claimed to giving the finger onto losely steared ship that has begun to be a hazarous to international shipping...
the gun incident reoccures when the ship is denyed to pass trough Suez canal, and Egyptian navy trails the ship all way trough its long and eventfull voyage around Africa during wich some of the 'warsweating' officer-corps suddenly bargains few boosted range Scud-Ds from Yemenian dealers to exhange for several brand new Nokia 1616 cellphones...thougth not telling the yemenies that those phones have already swimmed, some even couple of time in various swimming pools of the finnish luxus-cruiser now renamed as Matti Nykanen.

The booze offcourse rans out but a vital resupply is made in Bangkok, Thailand and at last the finnish expenditionary force enters South-China sea and the brave and fearsome finnsih warriors starts slowly recovering from the hang-over that long seatrip has coused. Unfortuanetly the Ship's captain discovers a hidden distillery specially reserved for brigade's commanders personal usage. The task force R.A.P.U takes one final toast for the up coming invasion...takes another one....and another...(you propaply know the rest)...at some point somebody suggest that should we rest now or take yet anotherone...??? (At this point the finnish Government has miracleously gained UN mandate for peacekeeping operation in Tawain...thougth the UN security council thougth that Finnish troops are to be the first to enter AFTER the war has waged, not realizing the ongoing plan...)

So the Unpredictable return of Gollevainen III heads now full steam towards an island generally decided to be the fucking Raiwan or whatever we were heading on in first place...thougth the docking its pretty ruff in style: "Where's the brakes in these ships?"
And atlast its ground again and the Brigade2000 heads flags wavinng into counter any chinese opponent. After shooting several days barrels glooming monkeys, birds and frighten fishermens somebody realises that perhaps we arent in Twaiphan after all as the iland seems pretty unhabited...and small...
So the brigade settles down, comfortably, cooking Craps on ironstow and recovering still from the voyage.
Some of the officers sends that islands co-ordinates taken from Galileo reciever backt o Helsinki and they reports also that the Island is renamed into paskajarvi (to honour the famous training grounds in brigades homebase at Vekarajarvi) and including it as colony into great finnish realm...

And despite of all the taskforce is on the positions, on rigth place (or at least nearby) and combat ready so if the the war gets too hot and nukes starts to enter the picture, they are ready to intervene, and call the game off so no future Thaopanese civilians gets hurt...

got the hint? Play nicely....