51c conterversy

[MIGleader]

the 51c is causing alot of confusion for me

first off, are the chinese building one or two? ive only seen one at a time, eept for when some picture showed two hulls. other picstures show an unpainted 51c, even though these pictures came out after picture which showed a 51c painted 115

why would the plan commision one of class? doesnt it normally do two?
it could be argued that this is the sister to 167, but then why is it in a seperate fleet?

and 115 is a number jump over the last north fleet vessel, 113. what is going on?

[New2u]

BTW

there is one hull done(115) and the other one is beening build(114 i think)(u can find some pics on CMF or mabye later i'll post some pics.)

[Sea Dog]

Sinodefence doesn't list numbers opf hulls, but according to globalsecurity, PLAN should have 6 in service by 2015. Other sources seem to say similar things.

[Su-34]

Sinodefence doesn't list numbers opf hulls, but according to globalsecurity, PLAN should have 6 in service by 2015. Other sources seem to say similar things.

I think the PLAN will only have 2 O51Cs in sevice because the design of these hulls lack the stealth features of the 052C.The 051Cs are just built to finish the first Air Defence DDG project years ago when China ordered Russian S-300RIF SAMs.

[Sczepan]

the 51c is causing alot of confusion for me

first off, are the chinese building one or two? ...
and
I think the PLAN will only have 2 O51Cs in sevice because the design of these hulls lack the stealth features of the 052C.The 051Cs are just built to finish the first Air Defence DDG project years ago when China ordered Russian S-300RIF SAMs. there is a pic of both 051 C in Dalian
=> no hangar - what does this means?
-> no sub-attack helos;
-> no shipborn "AEW carriing-helo" to take a look "over the horizon"
--> ?

[Gauntlet]

Maybe they decided that it was not priority number one to carry ASW choppers on AA focused warships?
The extra space would mean much larger storage space for missiles.

no shipborn "AEW carriing-helo" to take a look "over the horizon"
Are the 051C's supposed to carry AEW choppers?

If so, they will be the first non-carrier warships I know of to carry them. The hangar space (if it will even have a hangar) would much more likely be occupied of 1-2 ASW choppers, as traditionally operated.

But then again, an AA focused warship would have much more need for an AEW chopper, than an ASW one.
As far as I know, these ships would mostly operate together with other warships which maybe has a more focused armament on ASW missions.

[Sczepan]

....As far as I know, these ships would mostly operate together with other warships which maybe has a more focused armament on ASW missions. and AEW choppers or planes, carriing with the one ship in the background, right site of first pic?

[Sea Dog]

Maybe they decided that it was not priority number one to carry ASW choppers on AA focused warships?
The extra space would mean much larger storage space for missiles.


Are the 051C's supposed to carry AEW choppers?

If so, they will be the first non-carrier warships I know of to carry them. The hangar space (if it will even have a hangar) would much more likely be occupied of 1-2 ASW choppers, as traditionally operated.

But then again, an AA focused warship would have much more need for an AEW chopper, than an ASW one.
As far as I know, these ships would mostly operate together with other warships which maybe has a more focused armament on ASW missions.

This all leads to some interesting questions. The foot-print and coverage of Y-8 for AEW protection over 051C assets, and the distance the 051C's would operate from Chinese waters. In order to depend on coveage you would need a forward deployed presence in the operating area you wished to operate in. So that leads me to think that the PLAN may be interested in a dedicated AEW helo. Definitely not as much coverage as a fixed wing counterpart. A drop in the bucket really. But enough for a SAG in it's designated area.

[Gollevainen]

Are the 051C's supposed to carry AEW choppers?

If so, they will be the first non-carrier warships I know of to carry them. The hangar space (if it will even have a hangar) would much more likely be occupied of 1-2 ASW choppers, as traditionally operated.

i belive he ment Missile guidance helicopter, like the Ka-25 Hormone-B.

But 051C hull size effectively decides in, wheter a big Russian SAM system or multipurpose/ASW suite. I find it rather peculiar that China would go for single duty ships, when the current need for a modern-navy-as-fast-as-possiple policy should call for multipurpose ships...

[Sczepan]

i belive he ment Missile guidance helicopter, like the Ka-25 Hormone-B. ... The TYPE 051C is an AIR DEFENCE GUIDED MISSILE DESTROYER;
I ment AEW Helos like the Ka-31 AEW helicopter
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka31/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka31/ka316.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ka-31.htm

The main mission of the helicopter is long-range detection of threats, including airborne threats such as fixed wing aircraft and helicopters. Surveillance, target tracking and transmission of the target data to the command posts is carried out onboard the helicopter. The early provision of hostile target information increases the combat efficiency of naval, air defence and land forces.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Ka-31i.jpg

Also western Navys using AEW helos,
http://www.stevenwillingale.com/cv/aew1.htm
http://www.racalinst.com/test_prog_sw/skaew.htm
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/snias_cougar-aew-r.html

[Gollevainen]

Oh, my mistake....

[Sczepan]

you'r welcome, thats why we talk about ....
Missile guidance helicopter, like the Ka-25 Hormone-B should be used by Sovremeny Type,
ASW choppers will work with the Type 052B Guangzhou Class DDGs
AEW choppers would be a great supplimenting for Type 051C Air Defence and Type 052C Lanzhou Class DDGs - the Russian-made RIF-M/S-300F long-range air defence missiles of 051 C would be much better work by these supporting ....

but all these helos (and AEW planes) could also operate out from carriers (and the DDGs could use the "Hangar-place" to load up more air defence missiles);

Let us follow these reflection:

AEW Helos ar not needed, when the 051 C and and 052 C ar operating in home waters, controlled by land based (fixed wing) airborne early warning (AEW) aircrafts - but in this aerea the PLAAF should have enough power so the Air Defence DDGs ar not needed.
Air Defence DDGs are needed outside of the aerea, which is controlled by land based planes. Air Defence DDGs ar to be used in blue water away from home.
And they should have long-range detection of threats, including airborne threats such as fixed wing aircraft and helicopters, complementary to the long-range air defence missiles.

Now if the DDGs themselve don't have a hanger to transport AEW helos, these helos (or - may be better - AEW planes) should be transported by other ships. One type of ship, carriing helos and planes is in Dalian shipyard, its the Varjag .... http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/aircarrier/default.asp
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=529

thats what I suspect - the 051 C class air defence missile destroyer at Dalian Shipyard ar usefull in combination with a carrier, they could be part of the future carrier battle group :china:

Does anyone have better ideas ???

[adeptitus]

the 51c is causing alot of confusion for me
first off, are the chinese building one or two? ive only seen one at a time, eept for when some picture showed two hulls. other picstures show an unpainted 51c, even though these pictures came out after picture which showed a 51c painted 115
why would the plan commision one of class? doesnt it normally do two?


If we look at the pattern of recent PLAN ship acquisitions:
2x Type 52C
2x Type 52B
2x Type 54

Even when they bought Sovremenny's, they were purchased in batches of 2.
So based on recent patterns, I'd say there's a high probability that 2 Type 51C will be built.



Are the 051C's supposed to carry AEW choppers?


I'd refer you to the sinodefense web page:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/051c.asp

the Type 051C has no helicopter hanger to carry its own shipborne helicopter. Eight anti-ship missiles instead of 16 found on other Chinese-built destroyers are installed at midship due to the limited space.

[Sczepan]

According to folks at Chinese sites, the first hull of 051C set sail from Dalian Shipyard at 0830 local time amid a noisy dockside party. The ship's deck was filled with crewmen and shipyard technicians. It is almost exactly one year to the date of launch.
It wouldn't necessarily be a commisioning, just a quick turn around the harbour to test the engines. The first trip under its own power could be sufficent cause for some celebration.

[Dongfeng]

Firstly, I saw on ship 115, and there COULD be another one under construction but this might be the same ship.

It is only unusual to have only one ship, e.g. Shenzhen 167 (Luhai class)

One theory is that 115 was originally the second hull for Luhai class but the project was cancelled before they could install the system. The hull was left there for many years befoer it was constructed as Type 051C.

Also it is not unusual for the PLAN to skip pennant numbers. eg, there is no 111 or 135.

first off, are the chinese building one or two? ive only seen one at a time, eept for when some picture showed two hulls. other picstures show an unpainted 51c, even though these pictures came out after picture which showed a 51c painted 115

why would the plan commision one of class? doesnt it normally do two?
it could be argued that this is the sister to 167, but then why is it in a seperate fleet?

and 115 is a number jump over the last north fleet vessel, 113. what is going on?

[Sczepan]

there are TWO SHIPS at this pix

[Su-34]

Well, let's hope that a future Chinese Air Defence Destroyer design is built by the dozens, like the US Arleigh Burke. Starting from 2012, China's GDP will be big enough to build 4 Air Defence Destroyers per year.:china:

[MIGleader]

thank u very much for the pic, sczepan. its good confirmation for two 51cs.i dont think it looks ps at all.
if a 51c is indeed a 51b hull, how did the chinese hide it for so long? it was 5 years since 167 was completed that the first 51c began building.

[KlubMarcus]

The only ships that count are the ones that get deployed. So I don't think the PLAN is going to spend money making more 51's than those already being built when they've got newer models they can build instead.

[MIGleader]

adeptitus, what do you mean no helicopter hanger/ from the pics weve seen, theres clearly a large helicopter hanger, capable of holding at least two z-9s. ill contact donfeng about it.

[Gollevainen]

well dont mind dongfeng about it...

ask yourself, were are the aft SAMs...hmmm could they be in that big helo-hanger size superstructure?? and if the missiles are in there, do you think your two z-9s find room there?

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/3923/tktk5yq.jpg

[swimmerXC]

well dont mind dongfeng about it...

ask yourself, were are the aft SAMs...hmmm could they be in that big helo-hanger size superstructure?? and if the missiles are in there, do you think your two z-9s find room there?

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/3923/tktk5yq.jpg

It's like the first version of the Burkes.. they can get helicopters to land but don't have hanger; it's probably used for replenishment and emergancy; the FFG 054, DDG 52B and 52C can hold the helos for it, I guess?

[Sczepan]

adeptitus, what do you mean no helicopter hanger/ from the pics weve seen, theres clearly a large helicopter hanger, capable of holding at least two z-9s. ill contact donfeng about it.
take a look to http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/051c.asp
....Like the DDG-51, the Type 051C has no helicopter hanger to carry its own shipborne helicopter. Eight anti-ship missiles instead of 16 found on other Chinese-built destroyers are installed at midship due to the limited space......
Dongfeng is right, the Type 051 C and DDG-051 B (LUHAI CLASS) MISSILE DESTROYER http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/051b.asp are very similar;
the missing of an helo-hangar is very intersting. What to do, if the range of the ship's surface-to-surface missile or the air defence missles will become more than the ships radar horizon (which is up to 150 km)?
They need helos at this time, or planes, transportet by other ships ...

[tphuang]

well, we've certainly have picture of the second 051C now. The kanwa article below states that 051C has the hangar. I think a previous kanwa article also stated this.
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6162/2005114123617619041qe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

as for number wise, I'd think 2 is the maximum since we only bought 2 sets of Rif-M. China is likely to build DDGs in pairs until it final finds a configuration it likes.

[Gollevainen]

Well i would assume Pinkov to be a familar with shipdesings at least in that extent that he can figure out that missilesilos and helos just dont fit to that same compartment.

[Dongfeng]

Wel, when it comes to the Russian-built weapon systems for China, I trust the reports of Pinkov, simply because he has huge contacts within the Russian military and defence industry.

[Gollevainen]

yes but pistures of 051c dont lie, there is simply no room for helicopters...
many 'experts' have made too weird asumptions of expecially chinese equipment, like many high standard publication still lists Shenzhen with gas turbines and e.q...

[tphuang]

Well, I normally refer to this diagram
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2543/2005118222958739447zo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I'm not an expert of this by any meaning, but there looks to be enough space at the end for one helicopter. (maybe Z-9 instead of ka-28?).

[Gollevainen]

No no no no...in where? maybe if they dismatle the helicopter into suitcase size modules, maybe then it migth fit, but trust me, those missiles take all space in the aft superstructure...its so evident of that pic so whats the proplem...

[Su-34]

051C is not intended to carry helicopters. Their role is to escort a future PLAN Carrier Group or a Fleet Task Force comprising of nuclear and non-nuclear subs, as well as frigates and destroyers of other classes. However, the 052C and other future PLAN Destroyer classes WILL carry helicopters. With 051C escorting PLAN subs, any P3-C Orion within range of 051C's Rif-M SAMs will be shot down easily, so that the Orions will no longer threaten PLAN subs.

[MIGleader]

the 51c will probably carry a helicopter on the landing platform rather than a hanger. a ka-28 is probably too big, so a z-9 would be used. it all depends on whether the plan really intends for the 51cs to use their yj-62s at maximum range.

by the way, does the 51c have a similar par to the 52c, or is the radar more 30N6E oriented?

[Gauntlet]

the 51c will probably carry a helicopter on the landing platform rather than a hanger. a ka-28 is probably too big, so a z-9 would be used. it all depends on whether the plan really intends for the 51cs to use their yj-62s at maximum range.Seeing as the Ka-28 is actually 2 meters shorter than the Z-9, and since weight is most likely irrelevant, they can fit a Ka-28 there if they do intent to have a chopper on it.

But I dont think any warships have choppers stationed onboard without having a hanger. The chopper would be teared up by the elements pretty fast.

051C is not intended to carry helicopters. Their role is to escort a future PLAN Carrier Group or a Fleet Task Force comprising of nuclear and non-nuclear subs, as well as frigates and destroyers of other classes. However, the 052C and other future PLAN Destroyer classes WILL carry helicopters. With 051C escorting PLAN subs, any P3-C Orion within range of 051C's Rif-M SAMs will be shot down easily, so that the Orions will no longer threaten PLAN subs. I doubt the 051Cs would be assigned to escort submarines. Its sorta ruins the stealth of the sub...

Rather than having surface ships to escort submarines, wide fighter sweeps over the sea is the way to go for protecting sea areas from Orions and other naval strike/recon planes.

Not to mention that no Orion pilot would risk its plane by going inside the range of a AA-ship.

[Gollevainen]

the helicopter platform is only for vertical replacement things and vip transportation...its not inteded to carry a aircrafts of its own. Ultimately these migth end up as carrier escorts, so no exact need for individual aircrafts in carrier task group...

[bd popeye]

the helicopter platform is only for vertical replacement things and vip transportation...its not inteded to carry a aircrafts of its own. Ultimately these migth end up as carrier escorts, so no exact need for individual aircrafts in carrier task group...

Guys, Gollevainen is correct. There is no room for that helo. There is no hangar. That helo pad is for vertreps(vertical replenishment) and transportation as "G" says. You just could not leave the helo straped down on the aft helo pad. It would corrode very easily. The only way you could have ahelo on board is remove those aft missiles and install a hangar on that space...Besides what sort of full time ASW helo does the PLAN have anyway:confused: ????

[Sea Dog]

The only way you could have ahelo on board is remove those aft missiles and install a hangar on that space...Besides what sort of full time ASW helo does the PLAN have anyway:confused: ????

I have to agree here, there really is no room for helo space and support equipment. To answer one of your questions popeye, right now the PLAN does have a full-time ASW helicopter in the Ka-28. But from what I understand they are solely used with the Sovremenny platforms. And yes, Z-9 has seen some tests in ASW exercises but it's not known how successful they were and if they will field a true ASW capability for PLAN's newer surface ships.

[MIGleader]

is the ka-28 also feilded with the 52cs and 52bs? 54s? around 6-8 were purchased originally, so thats enough for one on each ship.

ka-28 alone is not enough to feild a good asw ability. perhaps som ka-31, and towed sonar will.

if theres no helicopter, the radar on the 51c better have good range.

[tphuang]

is the ka-28 also feilded with the 52cs and 52bs? 54s? around 6-8 were purchased originally, so thats enough for one on each ship.

ka-28 alone is not enough to feild a good asw ability. perhaps som ka-31, and towed sonar will.

if theres no helicopter, the radar on the 51c better have good range.

interestingly, this is an article comparing ka-28 to Z-9C.
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/important/64/20051229/12989060.html
Either way, ka-28 is old technology too. EC120, CMH and EC175 could all be used as ASW platforms in the future. The latest DDGs starting with 052B should all have Towed array sonar. I don't think 054 is current using ka-28.

Anyhow, I guess not having a helicopter isn't entire horrible, since China doesn't have enough naval helicopters to fill up the hangars of the different ships.

[bd popeye]

Anyhow, I guess not having a helicopter isn't entire horrible, since China doesn't have enough naval helicopters to fill up the hangars of the different ships

For the PLAN I think it's horrible.:(

You fellows know that I'm a "China watcher". I love to read what the PRC is up in all aspects of it's culture. But espically the PLAN. But when it comes to ASW face it guys the PLAN lags way behind. Those admirals should be screaming about getting a state of the art ASW helo and ASW equipment on their ships. Who knows? They may well be doing that right now. But right now what the PLAN has ASW wise is substandard.

In any conflict with almost any other nation the PLAN would be at an disadvantage in ASW. And could suffer some terible losses if the ASW issue is not addresed.

[MIGleader]

poeye, the thing is, taiwan does not pose any kind of threat to the plan with submarines. 4 subs, two from ww2. a single kilo can handle all of em.

i too, am really surprised at the lack of good asw measures on any of chinas warships. i thought china considered submarines fro mthe u.s a great threat. perhaps most of the money went to air defence, and after the plans air defence improves enough, money will be redirected to asw.

[tphuang]

For the PLAN I think it's horrible.:(

You fellows know that I'm a "China watcher". I love to read what the PRC is up in all aspects of it's culture. But espically the PLAN. But when it comes to ASW face it guys the PLAN lags way behind. Those admirals should be screaming about getting a state of the art ASW helo and ASW equipment on their ships. Who knows? They may well be doing that right now. But right now what the PLAN has ASW wise is substandard.

In any conflict with almost any other nation the PLAN would be at an disadvantage in ASW. And could suffer some terible losses if the ASW issue is not addresed.
sorry, I mean it's not horrible that it doesn't have a hangar, since it doesn't have a helicopter to put onto it to begin with, lol.

As for ASW, what China needs is to develop better dipping sonar that it can put on it's newer generation helicopters. We can't keep on purchasing ka-28, since it is also quite an old design and is a little too heavy. If the european embargo is lifted, I think getting an ASW copter like NH-90 would for sure be on top of China's purchasing list.

[Eurofighter]

perhaps most of the money went to air defence, and after the plans air defence improves enough, money will be redirected to asw.

agreed. I think for now PLAN relies on their submarines to provide some ASW coverage. For sure this isn't a watertide solution, but given the fact that the PLAN is getting more and more modern submarines with greater strike capabilities agains enemy submarines, I think the PLAN will do fine in normal combat environments.

[MIGleader]

typhuang, you bet it would. the ka-31 can serve as stop gap measure till then.
btw, you know how european helicopter companies are helping china design a new generation of nulti-role utility helicopters? can it be possible that the companies will also assist china in developing a model for naval missions?

[tphuang]

typhuang, you bet it would. the ka-31 can serve as stop gap measure till then.
btw, you know how european helicopter companies are helping china design a new generation of nulti-role utility helicopters? can it be possible that the companies will also assist china in developing a model for naval missions?
Yeah, ka-31 is definitely needed. As of now, we are pretty much relying on mk2 and y-8 to search for targets in the water.

I think it's not that hard to convert CMH, EC-120 or EC-175 into naval helicopter. That's basically what we did with Z-9. We started off with just the civilian version, now we have the attack version and ASW version. We just need more development in surface search radar and dipping sonar and such. Again, these are the things we can buy from the French or the Italians once the embargo get listed. I'm not sure about the performance of KLC-1, but Z-9C is still using HS-12 dipping sonar for ASW!!!! That is sad. We still do not have our own dipping sonar!

[Sczepan]

Some news posted in Chinese sites:

The first hull of 051C has been making trips to Yellow Sea a couple of times since Dec. 28, '05.

The first hull (115) is named Shenyang; the second hull (116) is named Shijiazhuang.

edit:
according to CDF these pics were captured from ShiJiaZhuang TV station's news clip about the naming ceromony.

[tphuang]

add to that, a few more photo. Again, this one is showing a helicopter on 116.

On a side note, 115 is named Shenyang and 116 is named ShijiaZhuang. Two cities in China.

http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/281/116model7kn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/4130/116model28sa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/473/116model31fw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/750/116model49rs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[tphuang]

more
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/6553/116model59bl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/347/116model64xm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/1272/116model72kt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[vincelee]

to clear some things up, the Z-9Cs are actually pretty new, all the originals are directly imported from France.

[Wingman]

Speaking of ASW, why do many PLAN ships still use anti-submarine rockets? What good do they do anyway? Their range is only a bit more than 1km. By the time an enemy sub get THAT close to the ship it might as well be dead

[MIGleader]

in case some submarine runs out of torpedoes and tries to ram your ship:D
well, anti submairne rockets are like the CIWS of under sea ware fare. many ships have CIWs, yet an airplane would never fly that close to your ship. perhaps these rockets are a last ditch defence weapon. there better than nothing.

[Su-34]

The 051C classes are assigned to the North Sea Fleet, right? By why not assign them to South Sea Fleet, since Taiwan's Navy has just acquired two Kidd DDGs?

[Mr_C]

The 051C classes are assigned to the North Sea Fleet, right? By why not assign them to South Sea Fleet, since Taiwan's Navy has just acquired two Kidd DDGs?

Balance development of all 3 fleets and Japan is to the North East.

[Wingman]

Plus if you concentrate too much of your fleet near Taiwan it's going to cause a lot of political friction which should be saved for later.

[MIGleader]

The 051C classes are assigned to the North Sea Fleet, right? By why not assign them to South Sea Fleet, since Taiwan's Navy has just acquired two Kidd DDGs?

the plan beilives in equal development of the three fleets.
the south already got 167-171, making it the most advanced.
the east gets the sovs and 54s
the north only has 133 and 112, not very impressive for flagships. so new vessels are needed.

[Sczepan]

(Dec. 28, 2005) thank u very much for the pic, sczepan. its good confirmation for two 51cs.i dont think it looks ps at all.
if a 51c is indeed a 51b hull, how did the chinese hide it for so long? it was 5 years since 167 was completed that the first 51c began building.
well, I think the Type 051B (NATO codename: Luhai class) 167 was tested very intensive (including the diesel propulsion systeme) and at least in April 2002 (see the order of S-300 F complexes at this time) the PLAN decided to build 2 more of this vessels (interesting coincide: the Varjag sails into Chinese waters at Feb. 2002 ...)

and about the two ships: we should know it before ....
according to http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/8/165529.shtml
... In early April (April 4, by some data), Rosoboronexport (the Russian weapons export monopoly) signed a contract to sell two S-300F ship-borne anti-aircraft complexes to China for $200 million. ....

The S-300F complex is a ship-borne replica of the S-300 anti-aircraft complexes. Beijing plans to install the RIF complexes (the name of the export version of the S-300F) on two warships that will be built in China by 2005. An expert from the Russian Air Force said that the S-300F complexes would be installed by China on cruisers designed by Chinese specialists.

In addition to this contract, Almaz-Antei will receive a contract to build the S-300 anti-aircraft complexes for China ($400 million). As a result, the total sum of its contracts will increase to $600 million.

and http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/general/msexdev.htm
4/4/2002: CHINA ORDERS S-300F NAVAL LONG-RANGE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM
On 4 April 2002 the government of China signed a contract with Rosoboroneksport for the delivery of two S-300F [NATO designation SA-N-6 'Grumble'] naval long-range air defense systems. The value of the contract is estimated at over $200 million. According to Konstantin Makiyenko, an analyst in the Moscow office of the Center for Defense Information, the purchase of the S-300F is evidence of a shift in Russo-Chinese defense cooperation away from the purchase of entire platforms and towards key subsystems that would be integrated into Chinese-designed and built platforms, such as combat aircraft and warships. The execution of the contract may be delayed due to the merger of S-300F's producer, Altair, into the Almaz-Antey air defense concern. Due to the ongoing merger Rosoboroneksport has not yet signed a contract with Altair.

these two S-300 F naval long-range air defence systems was ordered on two warships that will be built in China by 2005 ...
now they are installed at the 051 C destroyers, as I know, http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/shenyang051c.asp;
(Type 052C (Lanzhou class) air defence missile destroyers has vertically launched HQ-9 air defence missile system http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/052c.asp);

[DPRKPTboat]

From what sinodefence.com is telling me, China is building 2 of these. Sorry for stating the obvious, but i'm new here. Does anyone have anyone have any idea when work started on the second one? The first one is expected to be in service bu mid-2006. If we knew when construction began on the second one, then work out how long it took tog et the first one ready, then we might get the idea when shijiazing will enter service.

[vincelee]

from the state of out fitting shown in various picture, you should probably expect the second one to enter trials about 6 months after the first. Maybe less.

[Sczepan]

.....
the north only has 133 and 112, not very impressive for flagships. so new vessels are needed.
what about the Varjag?
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=529

[tphuang]

From what sinodefence.com is telling me, China is building 2 of these. Sorry for stating the obvious, but i'm new here. Does anyone have anyone have any idea when work started on the second one? The first one is expected to be in service bu mid-2006. If we knew when construction began on the second one, then work out how long it took tog et the first one ready, then we might get the idea when shijiazing will enter service.
a while back, they were saying that 115 is 90% complete and 116 is 50% complete. The second 051C should be completed soon after the first one is.

[renmin]

Wait a second. I thought the numbers "115" was painted on the 051C already. How come on the picture in the first page, the numbers 115 arnt there? Can someone fill me in?

[Gauntlet]

what about the Varjag?
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=529
They can't have the Varyag as flagship as it is today, as its not yet commisioned. But if it will be commisioned, it will without doubt be the flagship.