The Chinese in WW2 (Pic thread)

[Kampfwagen]

Remember guys, China was the first to fight in WW2, way back in '37 (though technicaly, WW2 had not started yet.)

By-de-by, sorry I seem so obsessed with Pic threads, but a picture does speak a thousand words!

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/WW2/images/4a.jpg

A Chinese gunner in an open-canopy plane.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/thru-ages/ww2-4.jpg

Very intresting picture. Last two are from China, the first from the Nationalists and the second from the PLA.

http://history.sandiego.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics2/82800.jpg

Another intresting picture. A general of the PLA (Might be a national leader, not sure) meeting with FDR and Churchill.

http://www.archives.gov/research/ww2/photos/images/ww2-68.jpg

Chinese Infantry man guards some P40's, probably from the legendary Flying Tigers Volunteer/Mercenary group.

http://www.historysaver.com/assets/art/ww2/shaw-volunteer.jpg

An Ilustrated picture of a few airplanes and pilots of the American Volunteer Group, A.K.A The Flying Tigers.

[Kampfwagen]

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/hila/pictures/research/mao_w_s.jpg

Chairman (or rather, General) Mao, Circa 1937.

http://www.fourthmarinesband.com/jia_china_invasion.jpg

The Japanese march on China.

http://www.fourthmarinesband.com/china_behead.jpg

Graphic if only for what it leads to. The Japanese Execution block. The person is listed as a Chinese Civilian. Brave unto the end!



An orphaned child sitting on a destroyed train track. This just goes to show how very savage the attacks were on china.


http://www.iar-arms.com/images3/c96-1.jpg

Chinese Solider. A pretty nasty looking blade! Also, aparently holding a 'Broomhandle' C96 Mauser Pistol/Carbine.

http://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Nanjing1937_BabyOnTracks.jpeg/250px-Nanjing1937_BabyOnTracks.jpeg


An orphaned child sitting on a destroyed train track. This just goes to show how very savage the attacks were on china.

ALSO: I am looking for a picture. I saw it in a book once about WW2 and it might be on the internet. It shows a Chinese Solider with a Broomhandle Mauser 'Carbine' in the prone position taking aim on the Great Wall. If anyone can find it, much obliged!

Untill that point, I had no idea China and Japan fought on the Great Wall.

[darth sidious]

panzer boy

think I cna help you out my friend

the pic you saw is a warlord army solider in battle aginst the japanese in 1934

if you want war pic go here http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/9/976/9-976-990_1.html

best pic collection ever

[Red Guard]

thank you for your photos.
a few points i need to add.
first of all, the drawing of the picture is just TERRIBLE!
and just for your information. from 1937-1945, the Chinese Red Army was reformed to be part of the Chinese people's revolution army, the national defence army of the offical chinese government, more referred to "the central army". After 1937, all warlords' armies from northeast, from northwest, from sichuan, from midland, all armies including the red army were reformed to be part of chinese national defence army to fight with the japanese. and they all pretty much wear the same uniform.
the two pictures drawn are not accurate. the first one in yellow colour uniform is actually the german geared central army, there were only a few divisions like this, wearing german M35 helmet, using 98K like Zhongzheng rifle, they were pretty much all destroyed in battle of shanghai and battle of Nanjing. the second one is pretty much the general chinese army uniform. even though i think the communist army dyed the uniform to dark blue. and the red star is not right either. after 1937, all armies in china wear the same "blue sky and white sun" symble on the cap, even the communist army.
the cap is pretty much a chinese version of german mountain troop cap, issued to all armies.

also, i amnot very familiar with the english name of Broomhandle Mauser 'Carbine' , what is it? you got a photo for that? i could probably got this photo you are asking for.
and, the great wall is very long, they did fight on some parts of great.

to be a northeaster, the war started in 1931 for me.

just added this: is it a soldier wearing a M35 helmet, that's not on the great wall you know....if we are talking about the same photo.

[darth sidious]

Broomhandle pistole= ber ker pistole the one shown in all chinese war movies

more often called box cannon in chinese

central army is is well armed (one army had over 100 tanks) but too afride to fight

the most devasting defeates the the japanese are from the old war lord army

Red Guard

during the begining of the war only a small amount of the chinese army have the Zhongzheng rifle most are armed with the M1888 or japanese arisaka

[Red Guard]

mmmm. yes, you are right on zhongzheng. it started to be produced in 1935. and after 2 years the war broke out. but, what i was talking about is the elite german geared divisions of central army. not all central army. the german geared central army uses german stuff, from uniform to cars. i think i will make a thread about that later on. and i think some of the rifles used by them is the original 98K. and no, regular armies don't use japanese arisaka rifle. mostly only the communist armies and the gurrlia(bad spelling) do, since they are lack on the weapons and ammo.
i don't know about the tank part. but if there were that many tanks in the force. i believe it's the divisions that fought in southeast asia. they were the only chinese forces that found out side of china. they were issued with US and british gears as they got there. and they didn't run from battle.......

and i can't agree with you on the running part either. from my point of view the warlord's army ran from battle even more, maybe not the northeast army, because they were sent to fight with the communist and their homeland was occupied by the japanese.

[darth sidious]

the 5th army has many Russian t-26 and italian cv-33 and yes it eas send to south asia where it got bet up by the japanese

the japanese arisaka is in wide spread use before the war many warlord armies have imported arisakas or have made copies them self

during the 20s and 30s huge qunties were imported

most of the german trained army was wasted in the battle of shanghai

in the first chinese victory the battle of ter er chun (bad spelling) the war lord army did most of the fighting the central army only showned up when the japanese are hevily destoryed from weeks of street battle

here its alink on the bromehandle http://www.mgjs.com/01wenzhang/04junxie/maoseqiang_niuge.htm

[renmin]

You know that photo with the Jap holding a sword looking like he's about to kill the Chinese civilian? That is the Nanjing massacre or Nanjing da tu sha in Chinese. There are much more, that photo I have seen. Hey Kampfwagon, This is China in WWII right? find more pictures of the Sino-Japo conflict or at least more Nanjing photos. China in WWII is mainly versing the japanese. The Japnese were very cruel ( im not going to talk about it, it justs makes me SICK!)

[Red Guard]

ja, the japanese rifles were imported, but i can't agree on the weight of those. to my knowledge most of the rifles used in china were the mausers, even northeast army used local made mausers.
and you are only considering the battle of tai er zhuang, there were lots of battles fought by the GMD army, from shanghai all the way to nanjing, and later on.

[darth sidious]

the northen east army and western armey are former warlord units and they do have large qunites of Arisaka

the japanese rifle was however not popular beacause of its small bullet

GMD army in battle suffered mostly defeats in 1944 whole armies simply surrendered

the mauser you are talking about is the M1888 commission rifle other wise known in china as the Hen yan rifle( after the factory where its made)

PS war lord armies in south have primitive single shot rifle so you can discount them

[PanAsian]

The Chinese guy sitting with FDR and Churchill is Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek, leader of the Chinese Nationalists, most likely at the Malta conference.

Some additional tidbit: his own generals had to kidnap him to force him to work with the communists and the warlords to fight the Japanese, instead of fighting among themselves. He later fled to Taiwan after losing the Chinese civil war after WWII.

[renmin]

Hold on, just why is a chinese soilder gaurding spitfires? they didnt have Allied airfields stationed at China did they?

[darth sidious]

the only aircraft in the pics are American P-40

shown in B and E verson

think you made a mistake

[renmin]

the only aircraft in the pics are American P-40

shown in B and E verson

think you made a mistakeOh, I thought they were british spitfires, but my question still isnt answered, what is a Chinese soilder doing on a American airfield?

[darth sidious]

the airfield is in china built for the flying tiger most likely in kunming

[renmin]

the airfield is in china built for the flying tiger most likely in kunmingoh, I see, thanks, I never knew Americans stationed airfields in China I thought they only gave support by sending money and supplies to China.:o

[Red Guard]

no, i don't think arisaka was used widly in china before the invasion. and you gotta be kidding, GMD stopped fighting large battle after about 1938. then came the era of "people's warfare".

[darth sidious]

in 1944 the japanese lunched a large offensive call number one into central china GMD armies surrendered enmass

[renmin]

no, i don't think arisaka was used widly in china before the invasion. and you gotta be kidding, GMD stopped fighting large battle after about 1938. then came the era of "people's warfare".True, many people had said the communists fought japan while the guo min dan watched the show.:china: The GMD did not spend much effort in the war but still perticipated in a few small battles through out WWII.

[Kampfwagen]

You know that photo with the Jap holding a sword looking like he's about to kill the Chinese civilian? That is the Nanjing massacre or Nanjing da tu sha in Chinese. There are much more, that photo I have seen. Hey Kampfwagon, This is China in WWII right? find more pictures of the Sino-Jap conflict or at least more Nanjing photos. China in WWII is mainly versing the japanese. The Japnese were very cruel ( im not going to talk about it, it justs makes me SICK!)

Easier said than done, my friend. It's unfortunate, but the second Sino-Japanese conflict (there was another aparently in the late ninteenth century) was one of the most undocumented and least researched, which I find to be both iritating and unfortunate. But it might be easier now that I have specific names and events to tack on. Thanks!

Oh, and for those of you not in the know, the Flying Tigers were a group of Airforce Volunteers who, with their P40's fought in legendary fights against the Japanese on several diffrent fronts. The first front they fought on was the Sino-Japanese front. Despite the fact that the P40 is generaly considered to be at a disadvantage when fighting against Zeros due to the Zero's enhanced speed and agility, they still managed to do their part to help fight against the Japanese.

Also, The P40, though at the time considered to be somewhat outclassed and obscelete, managed to find it's way into the hangars of several forigen allies including the Soviet army and Chinese Air-Force. Over Russia, the P40 tangled with the even more daunting Me109 fighter.

[darth sidious]

Kampfwagen

the first sino-jap war started in 1894 over korea the japanese lunched a surpise attack( like peral habour and Ruso-Japo war) and defeated the chinese fleet beacause the naval fund to buy warships was insted used to built the dogger empress's palace

it is during this time that the japanese stole taiwan from china


as for the P-40 it is the weakest allied aircaft at the time even the russian prefer the P-39

[Kampfwagen]

(sorry to double post, but this is a pic post. Thank you Sidous for the pics!)

http://www.ssmedwi.com/broomhandle_wac.jpg

The Broomhandle Mauser 'Carbine'. Typicaly, these pistols were called Carbines, although not the correct terminologiy. Usualy these were made for Artillerly crews/commanders because they normaly couldint use full-sized rifles. They also made a 'Carbine' version of the PO8/P38 Luger. Many were used by the Chinese during WW2 as they were in surplus from WW1.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/vcl-amphibious-a.jpg

Another bit of surplus. These are Amphibious British Tanks (I beleve these are called Vickers tanks, but this is only from my rather fuzzy memory.) used by the Nationalists. (Fixed the Link)

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-12-06/1020487_837998509.jpg

I only show the link because the picture is EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. Although I realize most of us are big-boys, it might still upset some people. So for the sake of politeness it's just a link to the picture. Again, EXTREMELY GRAPHIC.

http://daphne.mmdc.net/archives/nanjing.jpg

Japanese Executing a Chinese Solider and Civilian while a crowd watches. Nanjiang.

http://www.hsm.com.cn/node2/node116/node125/lizijian/dts.jpg

An illustration depecting the inhumanity of the Nanjiang Massacre.

[darth sidious]

link dont work

the broomhandle was issued to all chinese troops not just Artillerly crews/commanders as there is a shortage of fire arms and these pistol
are powerful enough to be used as Carbines

many copies were also made in china

and yes the tanks are called vickers commerical

the Nanjiang Massacre demonstrates the true nature of the jap army and their intention toward china

[sumdud]

I find the Zero more daunting.
Both the Me109 are underarmored and climbs fast. But while even the French had a more manuverable plane than the Me109s. (A hard plane to fly if you aren't an ace) But as for the Zero, there was about no plane that was more manuverable than it.
The P-40s were flew by the Americans as a part of RoCAF in the Flying Tigers.
They were victorious by cannibalizing parts and shot the Zeros from above.
There was practically no other way to shoot a zero from a P-40.

How did you shoot a broomhandle carbine? There seems to be nearly no way of holding the handle and shooting it.

To Kampfwagen, I edited out your pictures because they are too violent and will cause unwanted comments.

To the others, STOP POSTING RACIST AND HATEFUL COMMENTS OR YOU WILL BE BROUGHT OUT FOR CHRISTMAS!!!

[darth sidious]

SUMDUD care too tell us witch french aircraft is better then the BF-109?


the flying tigers never encountered ANY zeros they were infact oscars of the Jap army

Zero has MANY weakness

1 it is the most underarmoured plane of the war the BF-109 can take a hit or the zero cant

2 underarmed the machine guns dont do sh*t and cannon has too few shots and shoots too slow

3 not agile at high speed as speed the combat flaps has greater resistance cant roll as quick

4 hard too contral in a dive beacause of structeral reasons


as for the broomhandle socket too sholder eve on sight it is a very large pistol so it can double as a carbin


Kampfwagen's pics reflected what the japs did you can not hide from the truth

:nono: stop glorfying japan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:nono:

they also have a habit of burying people in pits alive

even today old kmt soliders refuse to buy jap goods cause they hate them so much!!!!!

[sumdud]

And if someone found this place and saw the ugliness?
Some will get sick and sad in the wrong way.
I know us members can handle the pictures, but we are not the only people seeing this thread. So I will not allow such pictures to be viewed openly. I will allow the link.
END OF QUESTION.

As for the French craft that has better manuverability, it's the Dewoitine D.520
The Dewoitine D.520 was slower than the Messerschmitt Bf.109E but clearly superior in maneuverability
from www. kotfsc.com (Sorry, no direct link, it's one of those links that are.... don't know how to explain. But it's easy to find the page.)

As for the Zeros.
The Me109 had the same problems.
2MG+2 cannons with 60 shots per gun. (Yea, bettwe off without.)
Neither could do crab at high speeds.
To get out of a dive, you must get your flaps on.
(And that's exactly what the P-40s took advantage of, shot them from high up.)

And PS, where was I glorifying Japan? Now stop this glorifying issue or you are out for Christmas. We are a professional and unbiased military forum. We do not state any slanted opinion that do not cover the majority but only facts.

[Red Guard]

i said major resistence of the GMD army stopped after 1938. i didn't say they stopped fighting after 1938. after 1938, most of the cities in china were lost, and it came to the people's warfare. the people's warfare were fought by both communist and GMD forces. there were gurrelia forces organized by GMD as well. and to my knowledge. the japanese only occupied points as citys in china and lines as roads and railways in china. the rest plain land were filled with chinese resistence force. there is no way they could defeat us. after 1938, the over all war is just like that. its very hard for the japanese to push in one more step to the mountains. so the GMD and communists waited. they both getting strong at the time and just waited for the defeat of japanese.
i didn't say the GMD didn't fight with japanese after 1938. they both did, in their own way. after all, the defeat of japanese, isn't just a success for the soviets and americans. it's a defeat and great success for the over all chinese people.

and about 38 rifle. i asked a couple of friends, they told me the only force could be possibly issued with those is the army of shan xi warlords. the Jin Shui army. their military factories copied the 38 rifles before the war, but we didn't know if they ever issued those to the troop. but i could ensure you, the like...80% of chinese rifles are linked to masuers, not only M1888, there are lots of every kind of masuers. and during war, GMD forces were given US springfield rifle, forgot the name.

[darth sidious]

i said major resistence of the GMD army stopped after 1938. i didn't say they stopped fighting after 1938. after 1938, most of the cities in china were lost, and it came to the people's warfare. the people's warfare were fought by both communist and GMD forces. there were gurrelia forces organized by GMD as well. and to my knowledge. the japanese only occupied points as citys in china and lines as roads and railways in china. the rest plain land were filled with chinese resistence force. there is no way they could defeat us. after 1938, the over all war is just like that. its very hard for the japanese to push in one more step to the mountains. so the GMD and communists waited. they both getting strong at the time and just waited for the defeat of japanese.
i didn't say the GMD didn't fight with japanese after 1938. they both did, in their own way. after all, the defeat of japanese, isn't just a success for the soviets and americans. it's a defeat and great success for the over all chinese people.

and about 38 rifle. i asked a couple of friends, they told me the only force could be possibly issued with those is the army of shan xi warlords. the Jin Shui army. their military factories copied the 38 rifles before the war, but we didn't know if they ever issued those to the troop. but i could ensure you, the like...80% of chinese rifles are linked to masuers, not only M1888, there are lots of every kind of masuers. and during war, GMD forces were given US springfield rifle, forgot the name.


yes there was no way the japs can win after 1938 there are sinking in a ocean already

but on the 38 rifle the warlord army of the northeast most definlate had then beacause thoousands were made in the manchurian factory

hereis a link http://www.gun-world.net/

the Guandon warlord army also had them after a large batch was supplied by the japanese in a fialed coup attempt

long march surivour also spoke of the use of that gun during the march in witch case the only possible source is the KMT army

north western army also used them in revoult aginst chaing

most masuers are m1888 beacause of the bullet problem


SUMDUD

the D.520 is 60km slower then the Bf-109 it also can not perform negative-g
maneuver beacause of the fuel supply system

the E-3 has 3*MGFF cannon not 2 plus two 7.92MG 17 machinegun much better then the zero they also have more amno


yes the D.520 is more maneuverable but in the western front speed mattered more

here is a link on the BF-109 http://www.afwing.com/intro/Me109/1.htm

[sumdud]

Dude, all I was talking about was manuverbility.
As for the E-3, I don't know, but my simulator had only 2 cannons.
And the cannon shells tend to fragment upon impact on the skin of the aircraft, not inside, so it didn't exactly matter either.
I think the same applies to the Zero's cannons.

The Japanese were having trouble out at sea? Who was halting them? No way they could've conducted Pearl Harbor if halted. Remember, it's only 1938.
But I sadly don't know about Chinese involvement in the war though. :(
The history books down here barely mentioned the Pacific Theater.

But as for the Japanese field of occupation, many people would apparently overestimate it according to history books in my school and according to what you guys have just said.
There were many little ports that were occupied that could only be left by sea. You can't travel on train from Guangzhou to Shanghai apparently.

[darth sidious]

the cannon on the BF-109 and Zero are all the same copies of olinkens

the third on is located in the prop hub fireing through the engine
your simulator mostly likely have the E-4 ( famous one with the yellow nose)


for the ocean I was refering the fact that were stuck in china bound to lose like sinking in a ocean

as for chinese involvement they tide down thousands of troops that could have been used else where

the battle of chiansha is the greatest chinese victory ocured in 1942 killed 50000 japanese

later on the KMT army become weaker

[T-U-P]

How did you shoot a broomhandle carbine? There seems to be nearly no way of holding the handle and shooting it.

i remember watching a WWII weapon documentary show in Chine last summer, and according to that show, it works like a regular pistol, except a bit bigger. so you can shoot it like a pistol. it also has a attachable stack and once attached, it can act like a carbine (but you still hold it like a pistol). i don't know if there're two models or something, but the documentary showed 2 kinds, one full auto and another semi auto. the problem is that it ejects shell casings from the top, so the shooter can get hit by the empty shell casings. as a solution (don't know if it's same for the kuomintang armies as well because the documentary is mostly about weapons used by the communist army), the soldiers are trained to shoot it at an angle so the casings would eject to the side instead. also the documentary mentioned that when shooting full auto, the soldiers would hold it horizontally so its recoil is horizontal and can kill more enemies if they're close together (this techique usually does not involve an attached stock).

[darth sidious]

yes there are two verson one semi and the other fully auto

and yes beacause the user usuly shoots side ways the killl a max number of targets in small space buut he the solution was first discovered by bandits not the communist army

[adeptitus]

i said major resistence of the GMD army stopped after 1938. i didn't say they stopped fighting after 1938. after 1938, most of the cities in china were lost, and it came to the people's warfare. the people's
<snip>
...80% of chinese rifles are linked to masuers, not only M1888, there are lots of every kind of masuers. and during war, GMD forces were given US springfield rifle, forgot the name.

Here are some of the major engagements (100,000+) that the NRA (National Revolutionary Army) and the Chinese National Guard fought against Japan after 1938:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changsha (4 major engagements)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shangkao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Changteh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Central_Honan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_West_Hunan
etc.

As for rifles, the NRA was equipped with Hanyang 88 (Mauser 1888), Gewehr 98, and Karabiner 98k. The rifle that US supplied is probably the M1917, they had 2.4 million of them from WWI, of which 100,000 was sold to the Philippines and 1 million to the British.



Oh, and for those of you not in the know, the Flying Tigers were a group of Airforce Volunteers who, with their P40's fought in legendary fights against the Japanese on several diffrent fronts. The first front they fought on was the Sino-Japanese front. Despite the fact that the P40 is generaly considered to be at a disadvantage when fighting against Zeros due to the Zero's enhanced speed and agility, they still managed to do their part to help fight against the Japanese.


If you look at the kill-list here, you'd notice most of the Japanese fighters down were Nakajima Ki-27 Nate's:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/avgaces.htm

They also shot down some Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa and a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu. But no Zero's.



As for the Zeros.
The Me109 had the same problems.
2MG+2 cannons with 60 shots per gun. (Yea, bettwe off without.)
Neither could do crab at high speeds.
<snip>
And PS, where was I glorifying Japan? Now stop this glorifying issue or you are out for Christmas. We are a professional and unbiased military forum. We do not state any slanted opinion that do not cover the majority but only facts.

On Mitsubishi Zero vs. Messerschmitt Bf 109, I'll just say that the Luffwaffe would've been better off with Zero's in Battle of Britian. The Bf 109E only had combat range of 650km, and the last Bf 109G-6 vairant had range of 700 km (425 miles). The Mitsubishi Zero had a range of 2,600 km.

IMO if we were to say "the Zero is the better machine for the job", that's not glorifying Japan.

[Red Guard]

ja, still, where are the 38 rifles? i'd like to know about that

[sumdud]

I've seen people (Communist guerillas?) in documentary also shooting their broomhandles sideways.
As for shooting sideways full auto, I don't find it attractive when the thing holds only 10 bullets.
But still, how'd you shoot the carbine? There is no place to fit your hand. You can't hold it like a pistol or like a rifle.

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.

As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

[Red Guard]

I've seen people (Communist guerillas?) in documentary also shooting their broomhandles sideways.
As for shooting sideways full auto, I don't find it attractive when the thing holds only 10 bullets.
But still, how'd you shoot the carbine? There is no place to fit your hand. You can't hold it like a pistol or like a rifle.

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.

As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

according to the german geared divisions. the carbine is issued to NCOs. that's the funniest part. since the hulster of the carbine IS the stock of the gun....

okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

[adeptitus]

I thought it was the Zeros too, then again, might have messed it up with the Oscars..........(Which was nearly as good as Zeros without the fame.)
But Nates and Toryus? Those are just turkey shoot....... They are slow and light and crabby.
As for Zeros, it had the climb, manuverbility, and range. (How'd I forget that!)

The Flying Tigers only operated for a short time from Dec 1941 to July 1942. I think they mostly engaged Japanese Imperial Army aviation units, which used Nakajima aircraft. The Japanese Imperial Navy aviation used Mitsubishi aircraft (though Nakajima factory did manufacture 6,500 Zero's used by Naval aviation).

The Ki-27 Nate (Type 97 fighter) was the Imperial Army's primary fighter aircraft at the time. They built over 3,000 and dominated the skies over Mongolia and China in early stages of the war. In the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, the Ki-27 was reported to have shot down 1,252 Soviet I-15 and I-16's.


okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

There were factories in China that made Type 38 rifles too. In 1931, when the Japanese invaded Manchuria, they setup a facotry and made about 110,000 Type 38 rifles and 51,000 Type 38 carbines. "Friendly" and collaborator forces were given Type 38 rifles, as well as militias organized under Japanese occupation. I read that "collaborator" riflemen were given a Type 38 rifle and 5 rounds of ammo in non-combat station, and no more than 30 rounds in combat station. The Japanese obviously did not trust them much.

[Kampfwagen]

I find the Zero more daunting.
Both the Me109 are underarmored and climbs fast. But while even the French had a more manuverable plane than the Me109s. (A hard plane to fly if you aren't an ace) But as for the Zero, there was about no plane that was more manuverable than it.
The P-40s were flew by the Americans as a part of RoCAF in the Flying Tigers.
They were victorious by cannibalizing parts and shot the Zeros from above.
There was practically no other way to shoot a zero from a P-40.

How did you shoot a broomhandle carbine? There seems to be nearly no way of holding the handle and shooting it.

To Kampfwagen, I edited out your pictures because they are too violent and will cause unwanted comments.




Thank you, I realized that myself only recently. I guess I was a little dazed by just how shocking they are. Despite what I know, I had only a slight grasp at just how horrible the Nanjiang massacre was!:( All at the request of other members, though! But why make the tank picture a Link?

And from what I understand, how one holds a Broomhandle Mauser is to ether use the butt as a stabilizer when shooting from a normal stance, or to grip the front of the magazine area. The first one is more likely as the second might just get your hand burnt if you do it the wrong way.

And Third (I gues I reversed the order) While a hard plane to fly, the BF109, especialy the G or 'Gustaf' model and E model were very capable planes that could just as easily tangle with a Huricane or Spitfighter, though outclassed by later itterations of the Spitfire and the P51D. The BF109 and the Zero side to side however are two very diffrent aircraft. The Zero was Faster and more Manuverable, but the BF109 had a better climb/descent and could take considerably more damage. Also, the Germans were constantly updating their BF109 fighters while the Japanese did relatively little, largely because of their political look on warfare based in part on the Bushido code (That it is not the weapon, but the man that wins wars.) Although good for person-to-person fights, I dont suspect the Samurai and Shogun ever expected to fly in machine-gun equipped fighters. By the way, if anything, while the BF109 is more well known, the Focke-Wulf 190 is in most respects a better aircraft.


Also, it is intresting to note that in both tanks and Airplanes, the Heer and Luftwaffe were both outclassed by the French ground and Airforces. But due to innefective (incompitent is too harsh a word) leadership and the German's superior tactics, the Nazis won the day. In fact many French fighters after the conquest of France were ether taken apart for study or re-painted in luftwaffe collors and flown against France's allies untill her liberation.

Also: The Hellcat and Corsair fighters (moreso the Hellcat) could outmanuver and outclimb a Zero, largely because the Zero's were obscelete at this point in the war. The P40's in China under the Flying Tigers together had a total of over two hundred kills and ninteen friendly losses.

And by the way, using Zero was just to generalize. I was aware there were very few Zeros up in the air at the time because during the early parts of the war, they werent even made and during the forties were too busy fighting in the Pacific.

And please: This is a thread about China's role in WW2, not BF-109 V.S Zero.

And no pictures, still looking for them! :coffee: looking over several diffrent sites to find some good ones.

[darth sidious]

okay, last night i was just reading some funny threads on some forum, and i found that china did have some 38 rifles before the war. two ways. a japanese mechant sold some 38 rifles to china before the war, numbers NA. and about 1n 1938, some warlords in guangdong tried to betray the central government and the japanese supported japanese weapons, 38 rifles were in it. so i suppose you said if red army ever met some 38 rifles before the war, it must be the first case. but i strongly disgree on the 1911 revolutionary army used one.....

the guandong rifle were part of the Japanese support for the war lords

the warlord of manchuria had large amount of japanese weapon in 1924 he bribed a japanese officer for a weapons storge weapons includee machine guns 38rifles and 150cannons

also the 38 rifle was firat made in 1905 so its possible that the Qing army had some as the factories in china were not making enough

LOL what is this the japanese got their ass kicked in air battle also there is not even that amny I-16 avilible at the time there were only 40 Oscars at the time if peral habour

the are the most pathetic aircraft of WWII no armour weak firepower adn slow

maybe you would like attacking a B-17 with the zero but no one else

the Bf109G-10 can take on a mustang with a degree of sucess the Zero(52) cant do sh*t aginst the hellcat let along the Mustang

the Zero is trueky pathetic above 5000 meters the gustaf in infinately superior to it and to some degree the FW-190

the Zero CANT be fitted with a high power engine beacause the structure is so weak there for its doomed to fail as it cant be upgraded

the full auto verson of the brommhandle has a 30 round clip not just 10 bullets

[sumdud]

I know the Japanese were operating Nates in Northern parts of China, but I doubt neither it nor P40s can reach each other.
And I couldn't figure where the Japanese would be operating their Nates from to fight with P40s. (Burma?) And the Nates suck..........

The Zeros weren't fast compared to Me-109. But it had at first a better climb rate (Kept decreasing until Me-109 took the lead). But being a gas inflated fugu that led to its fast doom, it always had a better range.
France could've repelled the Nazis?!

Never saw broomhandles with 30-zines.
Didn't Guerillas capture a number of Zeros?
As for the tank, sorry about that. Think it was a red x for me, so I deleted it.
(Uh.......the tank........ it's a forbidden site.)

[Kampfwagen]

France could've repelled the Nazis?!


It's generaly accepted that if command structure had not been so sloppy (For instance, there is a famous story about an entire garrison of french troops that surrendered to a single Panzer on nothing more than a bluff on the part of the Panzer commander.) that they might have held off, at least for the first years of the war, an invasion by Germany. Training also had something to do with it, and the British came too late and in too few numbers to help.

A few more pictures!

http://www.learnaboutmilitaryposters.com/WW2/US/International/17-0681a.jpg

A poster from an American aid group.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-Nationalist6x4HomemadeArmoredCar1933-MagnusRosander.jpg

A Chinese-Made version of an american armored car. Under Marshal Liu Hsiang, 37 of these became an armored divison. These were typicaly armed with a 37MM cannon with an option of two MG's in crude turrets.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/Chi-FT17.jpg

A Chinese-Made copy of the French FT-17. Several of these were owned by the Warlord Chang Tso-Lin. After his assassination, their guns were turned from other Chinese to Japanese soliders by Chang's son after his fathers assassination by the Japanese.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/pzkpfw1.jpg

Instantly recognizeable to anyone intrested in WW2 German Tanks, these are the Pzkpfw (Panzerkampfwagen) 1 tanks. There were only ten issued to the Third Tank Batallion in Nanking. At Nanking, most were re-fitted with the Nationalist Sunburst insignia.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/china/T-26-a.jpg

Ironicaly, both Panzers and Russian tanks, specificaly T-26 tanks. Also in the Chinese inventory were American tanks and other British tanks.

[Red Guard]

actually. northeast army uses czech designed rifles. and since the japanese are behind them, their czech designed rifle is mixed with 38 rifle too. besides. no warlords could say they have a standard rifle. it's always mixed. soemthing this, something that.

[darth sidious]

the Ft-17 was captured by japan when they invaded manchuria

also the panverIs were all lost during the battle of nanking

[sumdud]

OK, there is one racist word in this thread that keeps reappearing.
People, please do not use the word "Jap", instead use "Japanese".
"Jap" is a racist word and it will not be tolerated here. :nono:

[Red Guard]

the Ft-17 was captured by japan when they invaded manchuria

also the panverIs were all lost during the battle of nanking


how come i remember that's battle of shanghai? they said they sunk those tanks in the river, and later photos taken by the JAPANESE army show that they were kept in great condition on the land, AND DRY TOO.
so many traitors in the army, so many traitors in the nation.

PS, with my great hate towards them, i don't even want to call them jap, but i promise i will use the word japanese, as i show my repect to the forum.

[renmin]

I would do the same thing as Red Gaurd, no matter how much I hate those barbarreans (no offense), I would not be racist towards them. Any way, I think on september 18, japan was in control of half of China. and yes there were many Chinese traitors of what the Chinese call Han jian. A word to call Chinese traitors or any person who betrayed, their own country. I would say that the communist delt with traitors quite fairly, for one thing, traitors who helped the Japanese build camps etc. did not recieve the death penalty but instead, 10 years in prison while other countries would of exicuted them but some traitors who did sevire things like joined their army or giving information to the japanese where exicuted, quite fair I must say.

[darth sidious]

tanks used during the battle of shanghai are the vickers tanks

and yes there is a pic of a japanese officer with a captured panzer I

but thats in naking

[renmin]

Generaly speaking, The japanese massacered through Chinese defenses, when you look at it, China was only armed with macine guns and a few cannons, while the japanese had tanks,a navy, aircraft etc. Japans enitial retreat was because of the A-bomb and the work of the Comunist soilders. Airstrikes were common in China, my grandfather's friend was killed by a Japanese airstrike of Zero fighters. My grandfather found his friend's leg hanging on a telephone pole (seriously). luckly, the airstrke missed my grandfather's house. As for the invasion, most of the time the japanses were looking for where the comunist were hiding so they asked the civilians, and if the civilians won't tell, well then comes the un-human like torturing.

[WEN?]

as renmin said the chinese didn't really have the resources the japanese had. the comunists lead by Mao Ze Dong were guerilla warriors not frontline soldiers like the japanese. bearing in mind that the chinese were still in a state of civil war they were in a bad state. also Mao Ze Dong had to threaten Chen cai sheck(can't spell) at gun point to make him fight along side against the japanese. the only reason the chinese had some good equipment was that the Americans were supporting them but the aid given to Chen cai sheck was held in reserve by him for later to finish of the communists after the japanese were defeated.

[Ender Wiggin]

Okay, from my studying of the Red Army during the second Sino-Japanese war, while it is true that the GMD slowed down and stopped fighting major battles, the same could be said of the Red Army (who did not fight as you'ld think under the command of the Nationalists), mainly because it got to the point where they could not fight the japanese to their fullest and worry about the GMD at the same time and eventually while conducting geurrilla warfare was also like the GMD building up and conserving strength to fight the GMD, both sides did this.

However the difference is how they saved strength, while operations like the "Hundred Regiments Offencive" ceased due to the weakening of reserves leaving them vulnerable to bullying form Chiang Kai Shek geurilla fighting and mobile "people's war" continued since these were the most effective way to build up the strength of the Red Army within Japanese occupied territory, gain spies and sympathizors behind Japanese lines.

The CCP started the war with barely 50,000 men on paper, by 1941 they had 500,000 Red Army members and by 1945 1,000,000. and by 1949 outnumbered the Nationalists 3 to 1. All through tactics used in the peoples war.

For example, the red army would liberate a village they might stay for a bit buy some supplies then leave and move on, the village families would pressure their able bodies young adults to join them seeing others doing it inorder to gain prestige. Then they're was the anti-japanese sentiment in the north, anyone who wanted to fight back found the Red Army the best way to do so and joined, became loyal to the Red Army and later on fought the Nationalists.

The Nationalists troops, demoralized from bad leadership, crushing defeats, poor food and clothing, and completely hostile and horrible conditions joined the Red Army at every oppurtunity.

Example: 100 men would be conscripted for the GMD, they would have to walk barefoot for days over many li towards the front, given little training and even less food and clothing would be forced naked into a room marely able to keep 2 families smushed with some 30-100 other soldiers naked and chained hand and foot to prevent desertion.

Many died enroute to the front and those that did make it, seeing death almost every moment and risking their lives for no good purpose joined the Red Army upon capture.

The Red Army generally from 1931 onwards employed these basic rules: it was all voluntary anyone could leave even GMD prisoners.

Officers could not hit you.

And I forget the last one. I think you were garunteed food or something, I forget.

*********************

Okay I just read the previous post and you couldn't be more wrong. Chiang Kai Shek (western spelling) was about to commence his 6th and last encirclement campaign (this was when the Japanese were just beginning to invade China in 1937) however a few months previously, Mao and Chou Enlai had befriended the Manchurian yet exiled warlord (name can't remember) who was employed by the Nationalists to defend Shansi and keep the Yan'an base area contained, however he was pissed off at Chiang for Chiang's refusal to liberate Manchuria (because Chiang then was busy attacking the Jiangsi Soviet Republic), so when the Long March ended and Mao and the surviving Red Army was recuperating in Yan'an he made a deal with the warlord to gain a breathing space and find supplies, money and recruits in Shansi.

However back to the future a bit, Chiang was just about to launch his last and final encurclement campaign to finally in his mind destory the Communist Threat to his regime, but the warlord knowing that the Japanese were a far greater threat arrested Chiang Kai Shek. Chaing's wife and near relatives negotiated with the warlord and the Communists and agreed to forge the Unified Front and fight the Japanese.

Mao did no such thing as holding Chiang at gunpoint and was in no position to do so, it was essentially Chiang's own troops that did it for him.

[T-U-P]

the guy Ender is talking about is 张学良(zhang xue liang). he's the one who kidnapped Chiang and forced him to make alliance with the communists.
here's the wikipedia page for him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Hsueh-liang

[patriot]

This is what happened in China in 1930's:
Some sad pictures of Nanking massacre
http://www.nhren.com/advert/noforget/nhren.htm

Up to now, the Japanese still refuse to say that was what they did. Their history text book said that didn't happen .

[panzerjager]

what type of smg did the chinese army used during the sino-japanese war,they copied the german rifle,did they also copied there smg's

[montyp165]

what type of smg did the chinese army used during the sino-japanese war,they copied the german rifle,did they also copied there smg's

Some MP18s were manufactured, along with Tommy guns and whatever could be acquired from the Soviets.

[Costas 240GD]

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/WW2/images/4a.jpg
This is a Potez 25 light bomber, but, according to a book I have, the photo was taken after its capture by the Japanese.

[panzerjager]

Some MP18s were manufactured, along with Tommy guns and whatever could be acquired from the Soviets.

thanks for the info:)

[batskcab]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_shanghai

note - KMT lost this german trained division in the battle. mainly because they pitted light infantry with no anti tank weapons aginest japanese navy, airforce and armor.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Shanghai1937KMT_machine_gun_nest.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Shanghai1937KMT_intersection.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Shanghai1937KMT_fortification.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Shanghai1937KMT_preservation_corps.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Shanghai1937KMT_luodian.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Shanghai1937KMT_ruins.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Shanghai1937KMT_gas_casualties.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Shanghai1937KMT_officers.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shanghai1937KMT_chiang_kai_shek.jpg

[Phead128]

Why is the Chinese infantryman uniform blue. Its like come shoot me, i'm right here, don't forget to aim at me.

Haha, I got it. Chinese infantry mass together to blend in with the sky! Too bad that didn't work out didit..

[crobato]

Interesting question. For that reason I would like to know why one of the historical Ninja uniforms---I mean true to life---is also blue.

[luhai]

british soldier in red uniform and a white X in the middle would ask the same question.

[King_Comm]

The communist uniform was meant to be grey, but there was no standard dye, and there were no reliable lines of communication between different regions/units, so region/unit had to improvise, so the uniform from some places look blue.