pla armored vehicles

[MIGleader]

a lack of certain information on armored vehicles has driven me to maker this thread

does anyone have some good information on the development, stats, progress, and pics of chinese second gen ifv? sinodefence doesnt get too detailed with it.

another discussion topic can be, should china design a new light/city tank based off of the type 63a? or will an ifv do?

alos, anyone have some good information on the development progress of the new 120mm anti tank vehivcle designed to supercede the type 87? sinodefence doesnt have much.

any more information of the ld-2000 project? is it going to be in dervice? should it be?

[Su-27 Pilot]

I think its just me. But I still Prefer the GOOD OLD BMP 1 over the new Wheel-based APCs. BMP-1 with upgraded AT missiles its a must.

[Red Guard]

not really. even thought type 86 was upgraded, i think it's still based on old bmp-1. so i don't think it could be any better. btw, type 92 wheeled APC is for motorized division, while type 86 is for mech, different things. but HJ-73 C is a very good ATM.

[darth sidious]

teh Bmp-1 can be to support landings as even the best taiwanese tank can not withenstand a blow from it

but other then that its just geting tooo old

[sumdud]

Light tank/city tank..... The type 59 can do for now.
If China wants one, I think it can either be from the type 59 or an IFV. The type 99's hull is probably too long to manuver well in some cities.
It needs to have a back-engine since you might need to conduct tank size CQB and a turret near the front means less exposure. Also, you need mainly HEAT protection. There will be bazookas all around you.
---
I don't like the type 86. It's protection isn't very well.
Plus, you already have the type 89, which is very verstaile and can carry most arnaments. Type 92 isn't all there is out there.
I'd probably make a lot of type 89s instead, APCs and IFVs.
---
Taiwan have good tanks too you know. Maybe not the best, but if you are expecting an IFV to blow it, good luck.

[Red Guard]

oh yes, type 86 will blow the CM41 or whatever the name is. it has the HJ 73C, it's like the third best ATM next to HJ9 and HJ8

ja, i think i heard that type 89 is mainly for exporting, but to my opinion, i like 89 much better than 63. like what they said on FAS, "a steel box with wheels on it".

[MIGleader]

red guard, the 89 is in service with the pla. the 85 was the 89 verient for export. actually, the 89 was the 85 for the pla, since the 85 was developed first.

[Red Guard]

ahhhhhhh, i always mixed up those two, thanks. but i don't see 89 issued to PLA a lot.

[PanAsian]

I think the type86/BMP1 is completely obsolete for head to head combat with frontline armored vehicles. It should be treated primarily as an armed transport and not armor.

[MIGleader]

agreed, panasian. the vehicles armor is very limited, and all of its components(fuel, engine, cabin) are squeezed together. any rpg could score a mission kill on the vehicle. the firepower fo the 86 is also a bit behind. being a cold war desing, the 86 was design for fast combat in nuclear war. it no longer meets the requiremnets of modern war. thats why im so interested about china's second gen ifv

[Red Guard]

i don't know what your "modern war requiremetns" are. if you are talking about urban warfare, no 86 is not okay for that. but as far as today's PLA consider on 86 IFV, it still functions as a field combat IFV, it's suitable, even though i am not a fan of 86.

[ahho]

anyone got the article about the type-86 upgrade??? It somehow talk about the chinese BMP-1 being fitted with the BMP-3 turret

I got another question, can a type-92 turret be armed with atgm??

[sumdud]

????
Most of Taiwan's tanks suck, but not all of them.
But you have to factor in the M60A3s. Not the best, but a big threat for the Marines.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/army-inventory.htm
376, that's pretty darn much for Taiwan.
And there are the M48s which, even if filmsy, are still tanks.

The HJ-73C is good for infantry, since it's portable, but it's not a very good weapons for a vehicle. Its penetration is poor relative to HJ-8 and 9. Its range is only 3km.
And the Type 86 sucks when it comes to protection.
I'd rather have 89s and 92s fitted with ATGMs and a gun.
We have seen the type 89s w/ 4 ATGMs and a 30mm already. (Like the Terminator.)
And to ahho, are you counting the HJ-9 vehicle?
http://sinodefence.com/army/antitank/wz550.asp

In my opinion, it is better to produce type 89s and 92s fitted with whatever they need than to produce those type 86s.

[ahho]

????
Most of Taiwan's tanks suck, but not all of them.
But you have to factor in the M60A3s. Not the best, but a big threat for the Marines.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/army-inventory.htm
376, that's pretty darn much for Taiwan.
And there are the M48s which, even if filmsy, are still tanks.

The HJ-73C is good for infantry, since it's portable, but it's not a very good weapons for a vehicle. Its penetration is poor relative to HJ-8 and 9. Its range is only 3km.
And the Type 86 sucks when it comes to protection.
I'd rather have 89s and 92s fitted with ATGMs and a gun.
We have seen the type 89s w/ 4 ATGMs and a 30mm already. (Like the Terminator.)
And to ahho, are you counting the HJ-9 vehicle?
http://sinodefence.com/army/antitank/wz550.asp

In my opinion, it is better to produce type 89s and 92s fitted with whatever they need than to produce those type 86s.
well i was talking about some article that someone posted before not the hj-9 launcher.

Type-92 with 4 atgm :eek: So bad ass :)

Just wondering, would they use the new ifv (bmp-3 style) for the landing and is it fully amphibious

[adeptitus]

The ROC military's tanks are way obsolete, but they're worth something simply because whatever the PLAAF air drops is likely to be lighter (than M60's) and the PLAN would have to make it all the way across to ship in any heavier MBT's.

During the Chiang family era in Taiwan, Chiang Wei-Kuo (the other son of Chiang Kai-shek) was the commanding general of the ROC army's armor division. It was said that the quality of training and discipline was quite good in those days, even Singapore sent officers to train with them. Chiang Wei-Kuo himself served in the German Wehrmacht as a Lieutenant & commanded a panzer tank in Austria in 1938. But General Chiang is long gone and I donno what the state of ROC armored division is these days.

[darth sidious]

if your are talking about a sea born assualt then tha chinese will have something better then the BMP-1

taiwan is not sutible for armour simply beacause of all the mountians and hills

HJ-73C=saggers that kill israeli tanks

M-60=israeli tank destoryered in 73 war

also the taiwanese tanks will be subjected to air attack before the chinese even lands

the taiwanese tanks now are more comparble to the T-59 and the T-62 in chinas junk yard

Chiang Wei-Kuo comanded some M-4 during the battle of huei hi in 1948
he was stoped by a death squad armed with pipe bombs and pistols

that should give you an idea on his ability



END NOTE taiwan has no real tank force

[Red Guard]

if your are talking about a sea born assualt then tha chinese will have something better then the BMP-1

taiwan is not sutible for armour simply beacause of all the mountians and hills

HJ-73C=saggers that kill israeli tanks

M-60=israeli tank destoryered in 73 war

also the taiwanese tanks will be subjected to air attack before the chinese even lands

then taiwanese now is more comparble to the T-59 and the T-62 in chinas junk yard right now

Chiang Wei-Kuo comanded some M-4 during the battle of huei hi in 1948
he was stoped by a death squad armed with pipe bombs and pistols

that should give you an idea on his ability



END NOTE taiwan has no real tank force


one thing i couldn't really agree with you. which i see what you are saying for HJ-73.
a little note on HJ-73. HJ-73 is originally from sagger, and it has 3 generations. HJ-73A, HJ-73B, and HJ-73C. HJ-73A is about the original one with the regular amour piecing warhead, B is with the....how do you stay the stick shape warhead, and C has little wings on the stick warhead. which HJ-73C is the best in the family so far, it is a fearful weapon to regular tanks. some say, a couple of the US tanks destroyed in iraq or T-72 in south europe were destroyed by it, of course it's only a rumour. but HJ-73C could be the third best ATGM in PLA, next to HJ-8, 9. the advantage of it is, it's cheap, very cheap.

[sumdud]

?_? M-60 useless?
Maybe I guess. The thing was rated to be at the same level as the Type 88 anyway.

And BTW
which HJ-73C is the best in the family so far, it is a fearful weapon to regular tanks. some say, a couple of the US tanks destroyed in iraq or T-72 in south europe were destroyed by itThat's 90% chance a rumor. When did HJ-73Cs leave China?

[darth sidious]

think he ment their use in sebia during that war there were some chinese missiles notabley the HJ-8

so there is a chance that the monkey verison of the T-72 was destoryered by that missile

the israeli tanks werent the M-60a3 but the egyptions also dont have the improved HJ-73c

also in the gulf war some M60 did get their ass kicked by the BMP-1

[Red Guard]

what? M60 is rated at type 96's level? you gotta be kidding me! type 96 is like a 3 and half generation tank, it's better than T-72. M60 to type 96 is like a M4 to Panther!

[sumdud]

???
HJ-73 is HJ-73; HJ-8 is HJ-8.
Can't just combine them.
I haven't hear, but how did the M60s get kicked in DS?

As for type 96, I meant type 88 A and B, not C..........
Would've said 96 is I meant C........
But comm'on, the type 96's armor isn't thaaaaaaaat great either.

[darth sidious]

chia exported some saggers and HQ-8 to the middle east iin the 80s
if the HQ-8 can be resold to serbia then so can the sagger!!

early in the gulf war the Iraqis raideda saudi town

part of the allied attack force to recapture the town used the M-60 severalwas destoryed by T-72 and Bmp-1

many were also destoryed by T-54 in the 73 war

after that the marines replace the M-60 with abrams

[sumdud]

Did M-60s even exist in 73?
And how did the M-60s get killed by BMP?
Hit in the tail?

[Red Guard]

chia exported some saggers and HQ-8 to the middle east iin the 80s
if the HQ-8 can be resold to serbia then so can the sagger!!

early in the gulf war the Iraqis raideda saudi town

part of the allied attack force to recapture the town used the M-60 severalwas destoryed by T-72 and Bmp-1

many were also destoryed by T-54 in the 73 war

after that the marines replace the M-60 with abrams


HQ is the initial for HongQi, "red banner", that's the surface-air missile
HJ is the initial for HongJian, "red arrow", that's the anti tank missile.
common mistake, don't feel bad, :D

[darth sidious]

SUMDUD

M60 is an obivous give away that thing enter service in the early 60s
to counter the T-54

sry its susopse to be HJ not HQ

the M60 were destoryered by the sagger missile in the attack simple enough

that will also be the fate of the Taiwanese M60

[RedMercury]

Recently leaked pics elseforum indicate 2nd gen IFV is in production and being deployed. I'm too lazy to repost them :D