SinoDefence Forum

skyhawk2005

Will Pakistan get TOT on this engine?

I've read reports that say Pakistan will manufacture 100% JF17 in a few years. Does that include the Engine, radar, etc?
Or is it restricted to airframe only?

tphuang

well, Pakistan already has an assembley line for Griffo S7, right? As for WS-13A, who knows? Pakistan really did not pay for the development of this engine. And besides, does Pakistan have the technology required to manufacture turbofan engines.?

skyhawk2005

No, but then again, that's what TOT is about. Transferring technology over.

tphuang

no, but the point is whether or not Pakistan has the industrial capability to even produce turbofan engines?

skyhawk2005

No, they didn't. Neither did they have the capacity to make the JF17 or the radar, but that is what TOT is for.

Transfer Of Technology, the capability to manufacture locally.

So, does anyone have the answer to this question?

Is it 100% of the JF17, or 100% of the airframe?

I don't think WS13 or any jet engine is part of the TOT, but I could be wrong.

tphuang

there are certain technology that even if you give a country everything they need to know, they would not be able to produce it. That's why you see that the French are having doubts about whether or not the indians can actually build the Scorpenes. Anyhow, here is what I get from PDF. http://www.****************.com/news...Production.htm
" The official said 50 per cent of the airframe would initially be manufactured in Pakistan and it would progressively be enhanced to 100 per cent. Similarly, cooperation with original equipment manufacturers would be expanded over a period of time for co-production of avionics systems. Twenty-two avionics systems would be co-produced at PAC including radar, self-protection jammer, high-tech flight control and mission computers. The PAC chairman said the JF-17 project would ensure availability of an affordable and sustainable weapon system for the PAF capable of meeting its operational requirements. He said a new technical manpower of 3,000 personnel would be created only for the project of JF-17."

So, what PAF gets to co-produce is the airframe and the avionics. What it doesn't co-produce is the engine and the AAMs.

Speaking of avionics, this is a picture of Grifo s7 from beijing airshow:

skyhawk2005

***. Making an aircraft engine is the most difficult thing to do, even if you have the blueprints, and aid.
I think that you should research more in the engine construction. Maybe Akula can enlight us on this, since he's a aircraft engine enginneer...

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crazyinsane105

Let me settle this once and for all: if Pakistan can make serial production of ballistic missiles, Al Khalid tanks, nuclear weapons, and all other complex war machines, how does Pakistan NOT have the ability to make turbofans for jet aircraft engines? All Pakistan needs is a ToT, that's all. With a ToT, you can expect Pakistan to be churning out WS-13a's like sausages. As a matter of fact, any country with a ToT will have little difficulty in assembling and producing that product.

FriedRiceNSpice

The JF-17 program was so useless for the PRC. They developed it, devoted much brainpower and resources, and paid for half of it, and all they get is a fighter they won't even use. Essentially, all they did was develop a fighter for Pakistan. Maybe they gained some technical experience and technology and are more skilled now, but that would be all. Pakistan, on the other hand, gains a new fighter superior to anything they have, plus they gain all the new tech that they hever had before.

PiSigma

FC-1 is not entirely useless to china, china still needs something very cheap and can be mass produced fast to replace the J-7s for border patrol roles. J-10/J-11/su-30s are more for elite units. and J-xx won't be out for a long time.

there's no reason to doubt pakistan's industrial capacity. they have proven themselves multiple times to be able to build advanced and technically challenging military hardware. sure they are not building M1A2s or F-22s, but how many nations can do that?? 1, and that's USA. but if we are looking at production of something of a bit less quality, pakistan is already in the club. if pakistan dind't have the ability to produce her own weapons and had to import everything, india won't be so annoyed with pakistan all the time.

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FriedRiceNSpice

Well, I think they prefer the J-10 over the FC-1. The cost per unit of the FC-1 is from 14million-20million, while the J-10 is 20-25million per unit. There is not a significant difference in cost between the two aircraft.

crazyinsane105

FriedRiceNSpice, cool it!!! One more outburst like that and I'll have to report you!

The FC-1 is not useless at all to the Chinese. It was China that first called on Pakistan to go and build the FC-1 project and guess what, both nations have learned much from this project. The FC-1 is one of the few fighters I have seen that has DSI intakes. Also, if the Chinese thought the project is useless, then I don't think the PLAAF would continue the project. Why is it that the prototypes are continuing to improve if the Chinese see no benefit to it?

skyhawk2005

because it's mainly for Pakistans AF. All of the changes are being pushed by Pakistan.

Chinese will use it to export to other countries, but whether it will be inducted is questionable.

And you are wrong if you think Pakistan can manufacture a turbofan. That is total bull. The metallurgical industrial capability is simply not existing in Pakistan, and a TOT will not build such an industrial capability over night. It took China years and years to succeed.

Airframe? yes. Avionics? yes. radar? perhaps. But no way can Pakistan who has not even made a turbojet engine make a turbofan.

And as TPHuang has quoted, Pakistan will not be getting the WS13 TOT. Only airframe, avionics.

MIGleader

so they can simply import the ws-13as. im sure pakistan is advanced enough to maintain and repair them, correct?

tphuang

That's a interesting though. Maintaining shouldn't be hard to teach. As for repair, I guess one question is whether or not China can repair the AL-31F engines. From the constant resupply of AL-31F (I bet the Russians make more money off China on the engines than anything else), it looks like China does not have the capability to repair them. If Pakistan isn't given a ToT on WS-13A, then I would have a hard time believe that they would have the ability to do so (remember, the project was begun without a guarantee that WS-13A would be available. Although the WS-A project does look much more promissing with its recent successes).

Actually, I do have one big question for the Pakistani members. It was mentionned that the first 50 JF-17s will be using Chinese avionics and radar. Is that first 50 PAF JF-17s or first 50 JF-17s overall? Also, what's the status on Grifo-S7? I just hear all this speculative numbers on that radar, but has the radar itself reached its own specs?