SinoDefence Forum

美國友邦

China currently has no attack helicopter comparable to the Apache. Taiwan is negotiating the US to sell them the apache for 2008 onwards. If Taiwan buys the Apache, this will upgrade their aviation capacities, would this impose a serious threat to our nation?

Skorzeny

No. Apaches can not be used offensively across the strait.
They are mainly a threat to small landing craft and any armour that comes ashore. So they are a defensive purchase.

kickars

I think by the time Taiwan receives them all, PLA should have their latest WZ-10 in service, as well. But anyway, attack helicopters shouldn't be any threat to China.

Gollevainen

You have to remember that seldomly spesific weapon systems are mented to fight against each others. Ofcourse there is some cases where this isen't true, like MBTs and Fighterplanes. But usually weaponsystems are mented to destroy some other non-related systems.

In this case the question is about attack helicopters. Despite how cool they look and sound, they are intended mainly to one or two roles, anti-tank and counter-insurgency. Altough some modern attack choppers have air-to-air weaponry to destroy other helicopters, all current attack copters are designed to be anti-tank platforms in the first place.
Thats the case with both WZ-10 and Ah-64 Apache. If Taiwan recives Apaches it's hardly a "treat" to china when the situation is what it is now. It becomes to threat if China tries to invade Taiwan, as the PLA amphibious assault force is extremely vunarable to aerial threats.
The awnser to this threat is not WZ-10. Its more flexible and capaple aidefence suite for the PLA amphibious force.

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Skywatcher

How much of an improvement would the Apaches offer over the Cobras in countering any amphibious landing?

Pointblank

More armament, more capable target acquisition suite. That means better chances of engagement at a longer standoff range, minimizing risk to the helicopter itself.

dh19440113

The apache is a heavier attack helicopter. cobra 3000 LB vs apache 6000 lb of ordinance. 4 blade vs 2 blade and
either 2× Rolls-Royce RTM322 2241hp/2× General Electric T700-GE-701C 1890hp
vs 1× AVCO Lycoming T53-L-13 turboshaft 1100hp. basic cobra also lack helmet mounted night targeting system.

If the PLA only land chinese BMP then an upgrade to AH-1Z 4 blade super cobra is enough, if they bring type 99 than apache is the only good solution with its 16 hellfire missile.

Pointblank

Taiwan operates the Whiskey Cobra, which uses the same engines as the Apache's.

FuManChu

As has been said here, there would be zero threat to China because they would be used defensively. It would help Taiwan if invaded by China, but that's a different kettle of fish.

__________________
"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."

--FuManChu

AssassinsMace

Maybe someone can correct this, but I remember reading a news article a while ago that there was a large capsized ship off the coast of Taiwan. It was a hazard to shipping so the Taiwanese tried to sink it by "conventional" means. That didn't work so they supposedly sent two Apaches and fired Hellfires which didn't work either.

xuansu

Of course not. Anti-tank missiles are designed to punch small holes in thick armor and kill people inside. While sinking a ship needs something that will tear open a huge hole on thin steel plates. They used completely wrong tools, so of course it's not going to work.

FuManChu

I think you mean SuperCobras - Taiwan doesn't have any Apaches (yet).

I can't remember exactly what happened, but if Hellfire missiles were used they were probably the earlier models, which are pretty much just for anti-armour. The later ones, some of which Taiwan has bought, are designed to sink landing craft.

__________________
"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."

--FuManChu

Pointblank

Destroying landing craft, amphibious vehicles, and small warships will be the job of attack helicopters. The AGM-114 Hellfire can be fitted with either the standard HEAT round, the Metal Augmented Charge, or a Blast Fragmentation warhead.

AssassinsMace

I found the article about the cap-sized ship off Taiwan. Now I remember why it stood out in my mind. The Taiwanese fired Hellfires and dropped bombs from F-16s and still couldn't sink the freighter.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiw.../29/2003277837

Botched bombing efforts embarrass defense officials


STAFF WRITER
Saturday, Oct 29, 2005, Page 2
Three weeks after a South Korean freighter carrying more than 2,000 tonnes of benzene capsized off Taoyuan County, the government on Thursday tried to demolish the ship with bombs and missiles.

Although two separate bombing runs failed to sink the ship, the Ministry of National Defense declared the mission a success.

Admitting that it was "embarassing" that the initial effort by two F-16s to bomb and sink the ship failed, Minister of National Defense Lee Jye (李傑) yesterday said the ministry would engage in introspection about the mission.

Lee made the remarks on the legislative floor yesterday while fielding a question from the lawmakers about the ministry's mission to demolish the ship at the request of the Environmental Protection Administration (EPA).

The ship capsized off Taoyuan County on Oct. 10, after colliding with a Taiwanese-owned, Liberian-registered container ship from Hong Kong.

The EPA confirmed that 1ppm (parts per million) of benzene had been detected in the air within 2 nautical miles (3.7km) of the site. The testing results of water samples collected from the surrounding waters also showed a leakage of benzene.

The EPA was afraid that the leak could pollute the area, and affect the safety of other ships. So it decided to blast the ship with the help of the military, after consulting experts at home and abroad.

According to the EPA, as benzene is a highly volatile substance, it would be likely to disperse rapidly into the atmosphere after the ship had been blasted, and that there was little risk of the fumes reaching land.

The ministry sent two F-16 fighter jets equipped with two 2,000 pound laser-guided bombs from an air base in central Taiwan to carry out the mission.

The fighters failed to complete the mission, with only "some" of the bombs hitting the target due to "relatively thick clouds."

Later, two AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters were dispatched. They fired a total of eight Hellfire missiles at the ship on Thursday afternoon. Although they also failed to completely sink the ship, the ministry said the second mission was much more effective than the first one.

Skywatcher

Isn't it sort of a risky proposition to use attack helicopters to attack an amphibious force which would most likely to possess medium range SAM systems?