Shenyang J-31 Fighter

to add up, they have to compete with F-35 in traditionally US clients market
their effort at promoting the T-50 impressed me, but to be pitted against such a flagship like the F-35 is a very daunting prospect

the only way for aircrafts like KF-X and F-60 to compete is through cost, there are a multitudes of offering in capabilities and customers will not have a hard time choosing from
even then it's not the decisive factor, otherwise Gripen would have had much more export successes

political weight, lobbies, and snake oiling trumps competitive and qualitative assessments

and then, SAC have to factor in another roadblock, the major challenge for any Chinese fighter export to date :
switching to Chinese line of maintenance and logistics

I am kind of skeptical about the KF-X. Read a couple articles about it and it seems that it fits the role of a 4th gen fighter than a 5th gen. South Koreans expect the KF-X to be less stealthy than the F-35 which is not that stealth itself. South Korea also never built any advanced 4th gen fighters so they are pretty much trying to jump to the 5th gen stage without a proper, advanced 4th gen fighter. If this "jump" is possible then I think China would of gone that route.
My point is that KF-X can lower their costs but lowering costs does not guarantee customers. Other countries are not dumb, they obviously want the most out of their money.

what the Koreans has done with KF-X is selling the product before it is launched and entice customers with technology cooperation partnership framework
this also work as product development risk sharing strategy and helps to lower the cost of total units production

they got the Indonesians through with this, with commitment for 50 units
the Turks however is not sold with the idea

that is their 'pre-launch' business strategy, how they sell KF-X after development might probably mirror their current T-50 strategy, ties it with other procurements
you buy mine, i buy yours with other benefits

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Shenyang's F-60 could not go this way, as it is a finished product and China is not keen to sharing high tech to anyone soon

Pakistan is out of the question with this framework, they are also squarely in CAC's pocket
China's traditional market is predominantly low tech as even the JF-17 is finding a tough sell (wonder who's buying that 50 units recently)

the only way i think SAC could find an export with this plane is to fight it head to head with Western planes
prove it's a quality stuff at half the price, and PLAAF/PLAN must induct it to ensure logistics/maintenance concern

countries like Qatar/KSA/UAE might be the right place to start if they are having the mood to go non-US (like recent Leopard2 deal)

Which KF-X? The original or all these pics of late Frankensteining every stealth fighter out there as different variants?

that's a fan conjuration

the real thing is still in research phase and design feasibilities studies
SAC stole their lightning with the same design niche, if there is one design they will be compared to, it will be the F-60

August or September, either will be great time for unveiling

I wonder why everyone talks about the new Shenyang plane as an export... PLA is HUGE. No export market can compete with PLA in terms budget and appetite. Wouldn't it be better to sell it to the PLA? So this new plane along with J-20 could be more like an equivalent of F22/F35 combo?

LOL! The KF-X is a total wet dream, any talk of export potential of this aircraft is a complete waste of time. Korea doesn't have the financial capabilities, technological capabilities, or reputation to ensure the project's success. The latest reincarnation of the project bringing in stealth technologies is nothing more than an egotistic response to the debut of the J-20; a result of the country looking down on China thus thinking 5-th generation fighter would be very simple to pull off.

Originally Posted by vesicles

I wonder why everyone talks about the new Shenyang plane as an export... PLA is HUGE. No export market can compete with PLA in terms budget and appetite. Wouldn't it be better to sell it to the PLA? So this new plane along with J-20 could be more like an equivalent of F22/F35 combo?

What you've said is completely right; the export potential of F-60 is next to nil and Shenyang most likely wants PLAAF to place an order. However, the reality is that PLAAF is not a sponsor of the project thus have no interest in the plane, just as in the case of JF-17. Various big shrimps have also stated PLAAF will not buy the plane.

Other factors stacked against the plane include:

• The requirement of additional logistic infrastructure for RD-93/WS-13 engines.
• The aircraft as it stands is very similar to Mig-29 hinting it will have short leg, but PLAAF desires aircraft with long range. Ordering F-60 would be like buying Mig-29 when PLAAF already has Su-27.
• Avionics take up a large percentage of cost of a fighter aircraft. Should PLAAF desire a high/low stealth combination, it could go with J-20/J-20 combo with some J-20 having less capable avionics. There is no need to have a completely different airframe and engines.

The PLAN will surely be interested in the Shenyang new gen fighter if it's proven to be capable of carrier operation.

Originally Posted by vesicles

I wonder why everyone talks about the new Shenyang plane as an export... PLA is HUGE. No export market can compete with PLA in terms budget and appetite. Wouldn't it be better to sell it to the PLA? So this new plane along with J-20 could be more like an equivalent of F22/F35 combo?

You mean the PLAAF. The German, US, Russian Export markets sell more military hardware than China, and that in turn assists in technological and military advancement as well as operational overrun.

If you have the Chinese government fuel the military in the traditional socialist methodology, we'd end up being the U.S.S.R. and going for broke.

I think the most effective means for China to compete is not to produce an export variant that sells to countries like Turkey, or Africa etc. I think they need to create direct alternatives to european nations. This would be most effective if they begin more avionic partnerships such as with sukhoi with commercial jet development.

China's gotta use it's manufacturing capabilities to generate and divert the military industry to it's shores. If it continues to stand alone, I am concerned about xenophobia as well as the generation of fear across south east asia.

Originally Posted by vesicles

I wonder why everyone talks about the new Shenyang plane as an export... PLA is HUGE. No export market can compete with PLA in terms budget and appetite. Wouldn't it be better to sell it to the PLA? So this new plane along with J-20 could be more like an equivalent of F22/F35 combo?

because pupu and the insiders have stated that this is an export oriented plane, also to be used for the carrier

that's where this started

Originally Posted by Engineer

LOL! The KF-X is a total wet dream, any talk of export potential of this aircraft is a complete waste of time. Korea doesn't have the financial capabilities, technological capabilities, or reputation to ensure the project's success. The latest reincarnation of the project bringing in stealth technologies is nothing more than an egotistic response to the debut of the J-20; a result of the country looking down on China thus thinking 5-th generation fighter would be very simple to pull off.

a wet dream that has bagged a customer, if you want to call it so

they are not trying to build a fifth gen fighter, they stated it clear that it will be inferior to the F-35 and better than the F-16

i dont understand the connection to the J-20, the KF-X program exists back to since the 2004 IIRC
and looking down on China what? where did that come from
granted their challenge is great and they can go as far only the US allowed, your underestimation is very severe

but we are here to talk about the F-60 aren't we? not bashing the Koreans

Originally Posted by Quickie

The PLAN will surely be interested in the Shenyang new gen fighter if it's proven to be capable of carrier operation.

I think they might quickie, this thing looks somewhat more conventional, and while I believe the J-15 will be a fabulous carrier aircraft, the F-=60 appears to be very practical for carrier ops, and like the J-20 uniquely Sino-Centric, I think there is a desire to be a little more independant in bringing new designs to the table.

Originally Posted by paintgun

Shenyang's F-60 could not go this way, as it is a finished product and China is not keen to sharing high tech to anyone soon

I probably wouldn't call it a finished product.

Originally Posted by Engineer

LOL! The KF-X is a total wet dream, any talk of export potential of this aircraft is a complete waste of time. Korea doesn't have the financial capabilities, technological capabilities, or reputation to ensure the project's success. The latest reincarnation of the project bringing in stealth technologies is nothing more than an egotistic response to the debut of the J-20; a result of the country looking down on China thus thinking 5-th generation fighter would be very simple to pull off.

Indonesia has already agreed to fund 20% of the cost.

IMO the issue is not with funding or technology. By South Korea's own estimates, they only posess ~60% of the necessary technology. Since the goal of the project has been upgraded to stealth capabilities, it's likely that SK will need to import or license a greater % of technology from abroad. South Korea is not under arms embargo and have access to US, EU, and Russian technologies.

What IS an issue of concern is if this project turns into another Mitsubishi F-2. If SK had to import the technology and pay high cost for the licensing, what would be the per unit cost of the aircraft, when R&D & licensing costs are added? Japan paid dearly for the imported technology and the F-2 ended up costing over $120 million each.

Hello,

With every new set of pictures being posted, the plane seems to be growing in size.