SinoDefence Forum

Raven

Hello All,

I am curious about the various training programs of the PLAN and PLAAF for tactical pilots and aircrews. We often discuss the various weapon systems, aircraft and and tactics, I am curious as to what any prospective PLAAF or PLAN pilot would endure. With new aircraft and technology found in aircraft like the various Flankers models, how often are PLAAF or PLAN pilots able to fly? Russia and the US have seen pilot to aircraft ratios swell in recent times. American tactical squadrons tend to float between 12-14(USN/USMC) or 12-24 (USAF) aircraft and draw pilots and aircrews from the squadron as well as headquater units on the Group and Wing levels. As such, a pilot or WSO in a squadron may find himself or herself flying with a crewmember from the Group or Wing. Would it be correct to guess the PLAN and PLAAF Squadrons/Regiments follow similar patterns? Are there Adversary Programs and Fighter Weapons schools for the PLAAF/PLAN as well?

Have a great weekend everyone,

Raven

bd popeye

Raven , those are great questions! I hope someone like Dongfeng or tphuang can answer them.

I also have often questioned how much actual training the PLA forces recieve. And of course the quality of the training is in question.

Perhaps someone "in the know" of PLA training operations can answer ypur query.

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crobato

Its not hard to find pilot hours as once in a while some star pilot gets featured in the PLA journals and media. To make things short, before the year 2000, pilot hours were pretty short, even among the Flanker pilots. During then, pilots were only getting as much as 110 hours, though that is a much better improvement over the 60 hours plus J-6 pilots used to get, and the 10 to 20 hours the Russians can only afford to during the nineties.

Then between 2000 to 2004, pilot hours escalated sharply to as high as 185 hours. After 2004, there are reports that some pilots, even on J-7s, were as high as 220 hours, and there are complaints about pilot fatigue, especially when the training often involved low level flights.

A PLAAF regiment is between 20 to 40 aircraft but is usually around 24. However in recent years, past the year 2000, the numbers have swelled up to at least 32.

The number of flight hours an aircraft averages per year seems to be about 200 for the Flankers, though I would take that as an average for the PLAAF. Unlike the USAF, PLAAF aircraft are not personalized so anyone can fly them. So those 200 hours does not mean its from one pilot.

There are women pilots in the PLAAF, and they go through basic fighter training. However they usually end up flying transports and such.

The PLAAF equivalent to a fighter school and adversary program would be the FTTC or Flight Test and Training Center located in Caijing, under the Beijing Military Region command. The FTTC flies J-10s, Su-30MKKs, J-7E/Gs and J-8IIs of various types. The FTTC has a dedicated adversary unit that was known to fly J-7Es before.

DACT appears common in PLAAF wargame exercises, which is usually based around Blue Army vs. Red Army. Certain advanced units often play Blue Flag aggressors, intended to simulate the ROCAF. Since the coming of the J-10, Blue Flag units are often using this plane.

Raven

Thanks for the info Crobato. And thank you for the comments Popeyes. Training seems to be the least talked about issue in the various discussions in military aviation. More times than not, the well trainined aircrew will carry the day. It interesting to hear the training that pilots in the PLAAF and PLAN are doing. Thanks a lot for clearing up my questions,

Raven

bd popeye

Thank you!

Any military can have all the "toys". But if that military does not know how to operate them. Those weapon systems are in fact rendered useless.

If the PLAAF has indeed pumped up their flight hours that is a great step in the right direction for them.

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http://www.china-defense.com/aviatio...af-ops_08.html

That's all fairly dated information, but it does provide an interesting glimpse at PLAAF training. Of course, most important is the quality of training not quantity. There are also other issues such as tactics and deployment that require little flight time, but are still needed to keep pilots and airbase commanders.

One interesting tidbit is one aggressor units:

We had similar units in the U.S. during the Cold War, but those were decommissioned long ago and I don't think they ever launched no-notice pre-emptive strikes.

I think, while PLAAF pilots don't get as many hours, they might be trained harder than American pilots to compensate.

The fact they have dissimilar combat training puts them ahead of the ROCAF at least.

crobato

One thing I like to point out is the concept of multirole isn't working out in the PLAAF, with only the MKKs as the true multirole jets here. No, the J-10 isn't fully multirole either.

As a result, pilots don't divide their training hours doing ACM or surface attack (other than bomb runs and rocket strafe runs). They can put it more hours into ACM. Pilots dedicated for the ground attack, like those in the Q-5s and JH-7As, can can much of their time perfecting their specialized roles.

The result, with the exception of the MKK crews, is that the PLAAF pilots tends to be specialists.

Also with a lot more space in China, there is more opportunities for ACM without having to consider civilian air traffic and routes. This also means more opportunities to practice EW, which can otherwise screw up civil air traffic.

On the negative side, PLAAF training is also insular, since they never train with anyone else. They don't train with other countries, so no one knows their actual tactics but neither do they know much outside their own bamboo curtain as well.

BLUEJACKET

That may change soon. If the USAF goes to India for exercises, PLAAF may go to Pakistan, Myanmar, NK, Laos, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Russia, Kazachstan, Iran and maybe some others (and/or invite them in) to exercise with those AFs!

UCSDAE

speaking of training hrs, there is a book in UCSD's IR/PS(interantion relation/Pacific studies) library called military balance 2006, it details the inventory and training(in terms of hrs) for every military.(I would provide the full citiation when i go back and get the book). Apparently, in the PLAAF, the flying hrs. for figher pilots are 180 hrs. compare to that of the US of 189.

bd popeye

UCSD?? Do you have a car or do you ride the #20 bus?? I lived in San Diego for 26 years. Great place. I live in Iowa now.

I think those figures are what US pilots get on the average. Because I know pilots in training get only about 150 hours a year. But they also get about 100hours a year in the simulator. What does the book say?

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UCSDAE

I drive, and it's a pain in the ass to park on campus nowadays
but anyway, the book did not mention about simulator hrs though.
As for Chinese simulator hrs, I m blank on that, have no clue.

P.S. there is an PLAAF officer manual in IR/PS as well, but it's in Chinese, and I m a little to busy(finals) to actually pick it up and read it. If I have time over the spring break, I will try to translate some of it and share it with you guys.

crobato

Pace Visits Chinese Air Base, Checks Out Su-27 Fighter-Bomber
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

ANSHAN, China, March 24, 2007 – In a move toward openness, Chinese military officials let the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff examine their top-of-the-line combat aircraft and allowed him to speak with pilots and ground personnel here.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace and his party toured Anshan Air Base, home of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s 1st Air Division, and he examined a Chinese-built Su-27 fighter-bomber. The base was part of a visit to the Shenyang Military Region.

The 1st Air Division has three flying regiments and has Su-27s, F-8s and F-7Es. The Su-27 is the top of the food chain for the PLA Air Force, and Pace was the first American to get such a close look at the aircraft, senior Chinese officials said.

NATO pilots know the aircraft by the code name Flanker, and former Soviet Union engineers designed it to counter the American F-15 Eagle. The Su-27 was engineered to be an air superiority fighter and the Chinese still use it in that role, but they also can use it as a precision ground-attack aircraft. The Russians licensed the Chinese to build the plane in China.

The Su-27 does have some drawbacks. Some of the avionic packages are Russian, and the “warranty isn’t the best,” said a U.S. military official speaking on background. There is no air-to-air refueling capability for the Su-27, and that limits the Flanker to a range of about 1,500 kilometers.

Pace, Army Command Sgt. Maj. William J. Gainey, the senior enlisted advisor to the chairman, and Air Force Brig. Gen. Ralph Jodice, the defense attaché at the American embassy in Beijing, climbed into the cockpit of the aircraft. In addition, Chinese pilots flew four aircraft around the airfield to give the chairman and his party a small look at what the aircraft can do in the air.


While he said examining the aircraft was good, Pace said he was even more interested in the PLA Air Force personnel. The chairman spoke to pilots and enlisted men about their service, the qualities of their aircraft and their training and experience of the personnel. He said they were highly motivated and impressed him with their professionalism.

Chinese officials said all their pilots are college graduates and that 96 percent of them are capable of handling complex air operations. The officials said pilots average 120 hours of flying time per year with most of their training centered on tactical considerations. Roughly 35 percent of pilot training is at night. They said they had about 130 pilots for the 100 aircraft in the unit.

In comparison, U.S. Air Force pilots average about 250 flying hours per year and there are roughly 120 pilots per 100 aircraft.

Pace thanked the Chinese personnel for their work. He said their efforts are helping to bring China and the United States closer together. Pace told the airmen that the United States and China have many common national interests and that it is in Asia’s and the world’s interest for the two countries to cooperate.

During the visit, the base commander pinned a set of Chinese pilot wings on Pace’s uniform. Pace told the commander, and all the pilots he met, that, “while I did not earn the wings, I will wear them as a compliment to your professionalism.”

szbd

130 hours a year, seems not that much. "Army Command Sgt. Maj. William J. Gainey", is this the top NCO in the army?

crobato

That is an average figure, which can also mean the elite units get more than that and the Category B units get less. I'm not sure if the figure being quoted is actually sourced from the meeting or the reporter just pulling it out of previously published white papers.

Chengdu J-10

The average Chinese pilot would probably only get 130 hours like J-7 & J-8, while the aggressor squad piloting the flankers & J-10's get roughly 200 hours. Since there are more J-7 & J-8 pilots then there are J-10 & flanker ones the average training hours gets pulled down in favour of numerous J-7 & J-8 pilots.