PLAAF Munitions

I think you can find most of the stuff here
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/...uided_bomb.asp
I guess we got some from the Russians in the form of KAB-1500 and KAB-500.
There has also been the indigenous LGB. I remember reading an article on this on kanwa, need to find it. I will put it up later.

Another page that provides good stuff is
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/missile1.htm

A little more, this one at least seems to be indigenous
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/q-5_jh-7_h-6.htm
The development of the new Q-5E/F variants finally fulfilled PLAAF's requirement to deliver PGMs (mainly LGBs). The exact status of this project is unknown even though prototypes have been seen flying. Due to the limited payload the aircraft can deliver, a typical CAS mission is accomplished by both variants: at least one Q-5F carrying a FLIR/LT pod either semi-recessed into or underneath its belly and several Q-5Es each carrying two LS-500J 500kg LGBs (comparable to American PAVEWAY I) under its wings. A small fairing is seen underneath the nose which may house an ALR-1 laser rangefinder to achieve better bombing accuracy. It was speculated that Q-5E/F can also carry anti-radiation missiles as well for SEAD missions.

Thanks Tphuang!

I've read and seen all the info at sino defence. I will check the new links.

Any pics of PLAAF aircraft flying with or delivering those or any type weapons? How about it swimmer? Thanks again!

I checked those pics on that first link..I saw that knock off of a Mk-46 torpedo..Man oh man! I use to teach loading Mk-46 torpedo on the old H-2 helo. Looks almost identical to me!..Brings back some memories....from back in the day!

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Thanks Tphuang!

I've read and seen all the info at sino defence. I will check the new links.

Any pics of PLAAF aircraft flying with or delivering those or any type weapons? How about it swimmer? Thanks again!

I checked those pics on that first link..I saw that knock off of a Mk-46 torpedo..Man oh man! I use to teach loading Mk-46 torpedo on the old H-2 helo. Looks almost identical to me!..Brings back some memories....from back in the day!

[qimg]http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/missiles/Yu-7.jpg[/qimg]

I guess this is the other interesting part on LGBs

An LGB was seen carried by a Q-5F attack aircraft. This 250kg (LS-250J?) LGB has its control fins attached to the forward section of the bomb unit, a design feature simlar to that of Russian KAB series LGBs rather than American GBU series LGBs which have the control fins attached to the guidiance unit. This suggests Ruissian assistance may have been sought as China lacked the technology and experience in developing LGBs. This type of LGB (250kg & 500kg) may be used together with the FLIR/Laser Targeting pod developed by the 613 Institute, while both can be carried by JH-7A and Q-5E/F.

I really wish I can translate that stupid kanwa article on the capability of the pod, but I can't understand those terms!!!!!

Anyhow, the part about the torpedoe just shows how far back China's ASW capability is. http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/yu7.asp

Tphuang, when do you think will China have the capability to produce a satelite-guided bomb similar to the US military's JDAM?

Originally Posted by Su-34

Tphuang, when do you think will China have the capability to produce a satelite-guided bomb similar to the US military's JDAM?

The main barrier for that is China's lack of Global Positioning Sattellites. US owns the GPS system, the nearest competitor is European (I forgot the name) and its unlikely they will allow China to use it for military purposes.

For years now various articles claim that chinese anti ship and land attack cruise missiles use gps guidance. Is that true gps - american one, or do they mean gps like network like the russian glonass, its hard to tell. Galileo isnt fully operational yet but chinese and eu have signed a contract of cooperation concerning it. us has protested about it but so far it has remained just a protest.

Thing is - one doesn't need permission to use the civilian signal. If chinese missiles are using that US would need to shut down good part of the whole network, denying the signal to other users too. Of course, civilian signal is not as precise as the one us military uses, i believe i read civ gps signal has accuracy of being no more than 10 m away from the target. That's good enough for getting the missile/bomb over the target but one would wanna use some kind of additional terminal electrooptical guidance in case of armored targets.

Galileo signal, as far as i know, will have just one quality, no military and civilian usage differentiation, and it will be more precise than current civilian gps one. It has been said that US will allow for more precise civilian use gps signal then, so it remains economically competitive.

Of course, there's always the indigenous satellite network china is working on, but that will cover only the general southeast asia area, and will not be a true global network. I believe they said they have two sats up by now and need 2 more to make it operationial plus 2 more for backup. (am not 100% sure bout these numbers so you might wanna google it yourself) Of course, such a private, military sat network is going to be first to be targeted in any war with the US.

Originally Posted by IDonT

The main barrier for that is China's lack of Global Positioning Sattellites. US owns the GPS system, the nearest competitor is European (I forgot the name) and its unlikely they will allow China to use it for military purposes.

Blocking China out of the GPS system would not stop them from building a satellite-guided bomb - they could always use the Russian GLONASS system. In around 20-30 years time, China could build its own satellite syatem, given the rapid development of its economy and space programme.
I've also got a question of my own - how good would the Chinese LGBs be? Would they be comparable to U.S. systems, or is China still far behind?

Originally Posted by IDonT

The main barrier for that is China's lack of Global Positioning Sattellites. US owns the GPS system, the nearest competitor is European (I forgot the name) and its unlikely they will allow China to use it for military purposes.

China does not need GPS. It will have the European Gallileo(is that what ur thnking of?), Which is accurate up to one meter, making it even more accurate than modernized GPS sattelites. what more is that this system is offered to all, including the military(maybe not terrorists...). The constelation should be operational by 2008. Europe has already guarenteed China it will not block Gallileo transmission in the event of war. China has already been generous to foot 20% of the cost for the project, and is an active participater in the program. China will soon have almost as much influence on Europe as America does, so Europe will not easily give in to U.S demands for shutting down the sattelites. America, of course, could shoot them down, but that would only piss off the europeans and worsen U.s/europe relations.

To bakc gallileo, there is still the russian glonass, and the indigenous Beidou. After the launch of the fourth Beidou sattelite, the small constelation will have an accuracy of roughly 6-8 meters.

I'd like to point out that precision-guided munitions do not always require satellite/GPS guidence. For example, laser-guided bombs (LGB) and TV-guided bombs. Also, most of the earth's surface has been mapped and photographed from space. It is possible to use terrian-following radar to guide cruise missiles to stationary targets. Even in US JDAM munitions, which use GPS guidence, it fallbacks to inertial navigation if GPS is jammed.

It would be good if future Chinese ballistic missiles are guided by Galileo satelites+INS/TERCOM/electro-optical guidance too.....

Originally Posted by Su-34

It would be good if future Chinese ballistic missiles are guided by Galileo satelites+INS/TERCOM/electro-optical guidance too.....

The main problem with that is security. Since China doesn't own the Galileo sat. system, they are at the mercy of European whims. You can't put the accuracy of your precision weapon systems base on that. Europe can just pull out the plug and your back to dumb bomb accuracy.

Laser guided bombs are more accurate than GPS guided bombs, however, they have to be use on a nice clear weather and need someone to paint the target.

Europe has already guarenteed China it will not block Gallileo transmission in the event of war. China has already been generous to foot 20% of the cost for the project, and is an active participater in the program. China will soon have almost as much influence on Europe as America does, so Europe will not easily give in to U.S demands for shutting down the sattelites

Do you really think a piece of signed paper will guarantee 100% that Europe will not block the Gallileo? Don't be naive.

BTW, Galileo won't be online til 2010, not 2008. Not that it matters terribly, just FYI.

Also, The Chinese system is just interregional. So it is probably good for PGM's in/around Taiwan, but would not be able to guide ICBM's anywhere far beyond China. I don't know much about the Russian system, but I have to wonder if it is recieving sufficient funding to replace satellites as they become inoperable. maybe Glonass has adeqaute funding support, maybe the sats have 20 year life expectancies, I don't know. Anyone have a clue?

Glonass is updated yes. Last launch i know of was in december of 2005 which replaced some old glonass satellites and put at least 2 new series glonass-m satellites into orbit. but it is an important deal to the russians and they are funding it. it was fully operational at some point in 1990s with 24 sats but lack of funding did make that number drop to 12 working sats at one time. Still, in several last years russians have started updating it, so right now that number stands at 18 working ones. New generation glonass-m is being tested although i know at least one launched glonass-m sats had to be pulled out of the test network in 2004 due to malfunction. its still being tweaked but they're constantly updateing it and working on it. Current plans call for making the network fully operational and fully global, once again, by 2008.

Originally Posted by IDonT

The main problem with that is security. Since China doesn't own the Galileo sat. system, they are at the mercy of European whims. You can't put the accuracy of your precision weapon systems base on that. Europe can just pull out the plug and your back to dumb bomb accuracy.

Laser guided bombs are more accurate than GPS guided bombs, however, they have to be use on a nice clear weather and need someone to paint the target.

Do you really think a piece of signed paper will guarantee 100% that Europe will not block the Gallileo? Don't be naive.

The Europeans have very little reason to stop transmission to China. China has superb relations with the Europeans, both with trade and bi-lateral partnerships. After a America did a certain something in 2003*cough*, more European nations started considering China as a good ally to have. In the case of war, the europeans would likely stall halting the blokage as long as possible, perhaps a few weeks, which is all china needs to win a local war. Anyhw, china has beidou and glonass as a back-up.

Anyhow, most LGMs only need to the one aircraft to illimuate the target and fire nowadays.

perhaps due to lack of funds, interest, or technology, china has not yet persued its own TV guoded bomb program. instead, it imports new russian models along with russian airforce surplus.