New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[dlhh]

I agree with Semi-Lobster.

All this talk of China never exporting its top stuff is hype. Will Pakistan accept equipment that does not meet its requirements especially when its security concern is against a more advanced country?

After all, you cannot export the J-10 with inferior electronics and expect the customer to be satisfied with it. The exported plane must be able to defend the skies in Pakistan and China's technology is not exactly cutting edge that she can do so without making the J-10 less effective.

Only USA can do that and she does it transparently by passings laws forbidding cutting edge technology from being exported. F22 and a new type of anti tank missile that can defeat any tanks armour are some of these weapons prohibited from export to any country.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by dlhh

I agree with Semi-Lobster.

All this talk of China never exporting its top stuff is hype. Will Pakistan accept equipment that does not meet its requirements especially when its security concern is against a more advanced country?

After all, you cannot export the J-10 with inferior electronics and expect the customer to be satisfied with it. The exported plane must be able to defend the skies in Pakistan and China's technology is not exactly cutting edge that she can do so without making the J-10 less effective.

Only USA can do that and she does it transparently by passings laws forbidding cutting edge technology from being exported. F22 and a new type of anti tank missile that can defeat any tanks armour are some of these weapons prohibited from export to any country.

Back in the 90s, Iran was interested in J-8F, but China would only export F-8IIM at that time. That scuttled the deal, but that didn't matter. It's a matter of national security, China has money.

Pakistan can try to get J-10 fitted with Western avionics and such, but it's common sense that the radar/avionics it will be exported with is not the same that PLAAF will use.

And if you look at Pakistan's current economic situation, how much money is China making out of this?
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18595
"He said the PAF was capable of serial production of about 40 to 45 JF-17 fighter planes for which it would require between $750-800 million. The government has been sounded on that and has been requested to secure soft credit from China for achieving this objective."

[Diving Falcon]

We should understand tphuang's point...

PAF's requirements do not mean China's best...it can just so happen Chinese export material does meet PAF requirements...and that just means Chinese systems are great. This is an issue a lot of Pakistanis and even many Westerners have trouble swallowing.

[RedMercury]

Also, requirements are on many dimensions, not just a single "good".

[flyboy2008]

And if you look at Pakistan's current economic situation, how much money is China making out of this?
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18595
"He said the PAF was capable of serial production of about 40 to 45 JF-17 fighter planes for which it would require between $750-800 million. The government has been sounded on that and has been requested to secure soft credit from China for achieving this objective."

China is not participating in the FC1/JF17 project for Financial Gains. CAC is.

China doesn't need Pakistan at all. 100%. These folks who think Pakistan has contributed to the FC1 project even 1% are delusional, powered on nationalistic pride, not reality.

China is ALLOWING CAC to create the JF17 for Pakistan for political reasons. Not for Financial or any other reason. Without China, Pakistan would go under, and end as a nation. India would easily defeat them if it weren't for China's help.

Seriously now. What can China get from Pakistan? Money? Pakistan is begging China for money right now. Pakistan is a beggar nation, China is the world's Bank. Technology? Pakistan is in the Stone Age compared to China.

Will PLAAF induct the FC1? Maybe a handful as trainers. They already have the J10 which is far superior to the JF17. Why would they want the unwanted red haired step child when they already have the J10?

[Baibar of Jalat]

Originally Posted by flyboy2008

China is not participating in the FC1/JF17 project for Financial Gains. CAC is.

China doesn't need Pakistan at all. 100%. These folks who think Pakistan has contributed to the FC1 project even 1% are delusional, powered on nationalistic pride, not reality.

China is ALLOWING CAC to create the JF17 for Pakistan for political reasons. Not for Financial or any other reason. Without China, Pakistan would go under, and end as a nation. India would easily defeat them if it weren't for China's help.

Seriously now. What can China get from Pakistan? Money? Pakistan is begging China for money right now. Pakistan is a beggar nation, China is the world's Bank. Technology? Pakistan is in the Stone Age compared to China.

Will PLAAF induct the FC1? Maybe a handful as trainers. They already have the J10 which is far superior to the JF17. Why would they want the unwanted red haired step child when they already have the J10?

First post full of nationalistic language, whats your angle with such an emotive post.

No Pakistani is denying China has pretty much done all the work. Still Pakistan contributed money, still counts.

I think your the begger here because your begging for attention. I would give you more respect if you had more posts.

Pakistan is alive and kicking, so deal with it.

Edit: No versus topics are allowed by mods.

[yehe]

JF-17 is of course not on pair with J-10a, JF-17 is however a extremely good plane cost/ability ratio considered, basicly it's doesn't cost much more than a L15 trainer.

It's limited size however also limit it's capabilities like radar and range.

But let's look at why pakistan was so intrested in JF17 in the first place when they started the project with CAC, it's not because it's better than Mirage, F16A/B(Although now it have come quite close to those planes, better even in some field), it's because the JF17 will be affordable and that it will form the basis of Pakistani aircraft manufacturing industry, China was willing to give Pakistan alot of technology coming with this program, and certainly there is political concern but I doubt that CAC will be losing any money on the project.

The plane might also enter service in limited numbers within the PLAAF to replace all the version of the J-7s, and some version of J-8(although later versions of J-8 proberbly would outperform the JF-17 at least in longrange combat), this would be cost effective.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by flyboy2008

China is not participating in the FC1/JF17 project for Financial Gains. CAC is.

China doesn't need Pakistan at all. 100%. These folks who think Pakistan has contributed to the FC1 project even 1% are delusional, powered on nationalistic pride, not reality.

China is ALLOWING CAC to create the JF17 for Pakistan for political reasons. Not for Financial or any other reason. Without China, Pakistan would go under, and end as a nation. India would easily defeat them if it weren't for China's help.

Seriously now. What can China get from Pakistan? Money? Pakistan is begging China for money right now. Pakistan is a beggar nation, China is the world's Bank. Technology? Pakistan is in the Stone Age compared to China.

Will PLAAF induct the FC1? Maybe a handful as trainers. They already have the J10 which is far superior to the JF17. Why would they want the unwanted red haired step child when they already have the J10?

Please write something that is useful rather than something that is just provocative.

[Londo Molari]

Originally Posted by tphuang

Have you seen it exporting its best stuff in the past 10 years?

So then the correct thing to say would be, China has not exported its best stuff during the last 10 years. I agree with that.

[Baibar of Jalat]

Originally Posted by yehe

JF-17 is of course not on pair with J-10a, JF-17 is however a extremely good plane cost/ability ratio considered, basicly it's doesn't cost much more than a L15 trainer.

It's limited size however also limit it's capabilities like radar and range.

But let's look at why pakistan was so intrested in JF17 in the first place when they started the project with CAC, it's not because it's better than Mirage, F16A/B(Although now it have come quite close to those planes, better even in some field), it's because the JF17 will be affordable and that it will form the basis of Pakistani aircraft manufacturing industry, China was willing to give Pakistan alot of technology coming with this program, and certainly there is political concern but I doubt that CAC will be losing any money on the project.

The plane might also enter service in limited numbers within the PLAAF to replace all the version of the J-7s, and some version of J-8(although later versions of J-8 proberbly would outperform the JF-17 at least in longrange combat), this would be cost effective.

I like to further add JF 17 is meant to replace the older aircraft in PAF inventory. JF 17 capability is much better then origionally envisaged, however not meant to be as good as J 10. Some aspects are similiar both are capable in firing latest Chinese munitions, e.g sd 10.

[RedMercury]

Originally Posted by flyboy2008

China is not participating in the FC1/JF17 project for Financial Gains. CAC is.

Only true statement in the entire post.

China doesn't need Pakistan at all. 100%. These folks who think Pakistan has contributed to the FC1 project even 1% are delusional, powered on nationalistic pride, not reality.

Pakistan provided its fair share of the funding for the R&D.

China is ALLOWING CAC to create the JF17 for Pakistan for political reasons. Not for Financial or any other reason.

From the beginning, the JF17 was largely meant for export, i.e. to make money. Sure politics is also a reason.

Without China, Pakistan would go under, and end as a nation. India would easily defeat them if it weren't for China's help.

Seriously now. What can China get from Pakistan? Money? Pakistan is begging China for money right now. Pakistan is a beggar nation, China is the world's Bank. Technology? Pakistan is in the Stone Age compared to China.

False, useless, and provocative. Read the forum rules.

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs:

The diplomatic and strategic relationship between Pakistan and China, is a very deep one, and is the result of the need to deal with common internal and threats.

Though at first glance it would seem that the two nations have little in common, the relationship in fact grew out of mutual interests - and is a triumph of realpolitik.

Before 1971, there was little interaction between the two nations, other than a very cordial and amicable settlement of the common border between them, (along the Karakoram mountains near the Siachin glacier) in contrast to the still unsettled Sino-Indian boundary.

As a member of America's Central Asian alliance (CENTO), Pakistan had received some advanced Western weapons and training, and China, as one of the targets of that alliance was understandably wary of them.

Pakistan born of partition from British India, saw itself as a Muslim nation, and as such was equally wary of a Communist China.

All this changed with the 3rd Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. Here Pakistan's alliance with the US was tested and found wanting.

The US refused to supply the necessary equipment and ammunition they needed to continue the war, and with defeat Pakistan itself became partitioned into 2 parts, Pakistan (formerly West Pakistan) and Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan).

This traumatic experience taught the Pakistani's the true value of their US alliance. Never again would they be able to trust the West.

At the time China was itself being subjected to embargo's and persecution by the West and the 2 countries (like Weimar Germany and Soviet Russia in the post Versailles era) found it mutually beneficial to cooperate.

The JF-17 fighter is just the most recent example of that cooperation. True as a short-range, limited-performance, interceptor/striker, it does not entirely meet China's needs, (these are better met by the J-10), but as an example to other nations of China's commitment to it's allies, (as well as a convenient source of potential revenue), it more than meets its requirements.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[jawad]

IDEAS 2008 helps secure orders worth $40 million
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.php?latest_id=9513

KARACHI ( 2008-11-28 20:01:52 ) :The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

The event has also helped country reach broad understanding with 11 serious buyers for the sale of arms and ammunition, said Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj Gen Mohammad Farooq in a press briefing here on Friday.

He alongwith Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Saleem Haider and Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen Shahid Siddiq Tirmzey (retd) was responding to queries raised by journalists at Karachi Expo Centre.

He said that overwhelming response was received from foreign exhibitors and delegates at the 5th IDEAS. This event has not only enhanced the image in the outside world but also nullified the security concerns about Pakistan.

He also thanked Karachiites for showing hospitality to the exhibitors and visitors of IDEAS 2008.

Secretary Defence Production said that 275 JF-17 thunder jet will be handed over to Pakistan Air Force after the completion of testing phase.

"We have received so many queries for the purchase of these jets and more than 800 JF-17 will be exported to eight countries after meeting domestic requirements," he said mentioning that once negotiations were materialized, the export of JF-17 could go beyond 800 units, he added.

These aircrafts are produced under a technical collaboration with China and are also marketed under a joint venture with China, he said.

Gen Trimzey (retd) said that the growth of defence production industry in Pakistan has ended the monopoly of western countries.

-----------------------------------------------------------

PAF must be thinking highly of JF-17 Thunder their order size is increasing day by day
150 ----> 200---->250---->275

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by jawad

IDEAS 2008 helps secure orders worth $40 million
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.php?latest_id=9513

KARACHI ( 2008-11-28 20:01:52 ) :The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

The event has also helped country reach broad understanding with 11 serious buyers for the sale of arms and ammunition, said Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj Gen Mohammad Farooq in a press briefing here on Friday.

He alongwith Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Saleem Haider and Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen Shahid Siddiq Tirmzey (retd) was responding to queries raised by journalists at Karachi Expo Centre.

He said that overwhelming response was received from foreign exhibitors and delegates at the 5th IDEAS. This event has not only enhanced the image in the outside world but also nullified the security concerns about Pakistan.

He also thanked Karachiites for showing hospitality to the exhibitors and visitors of IDEAS 2008.

Secretary Defence Production said that 275 JF-17 thunder jet will be handed over to Pakistan Air Force after the completion of testing phase.

"We have received so many queries for the purchase of these jets and more than 800 JF-17 will be exported to eight countries after meeting domestic requirements," he said mentioning that once negotiations were materialized, the export of JF-17 could go beyond 800 units, he added.

These aircrafts are produced under a technical collaboration with China and are also marketed under a joint venture with China, he said.

Gen Trimzey (retd) said that the growth of defence production industry in Pakistan has ended the monopoly of western countries.

-----------------------------------------------------------

PAF must be thinking highly of JF-17 Thunder their order size is increasing day by day
150 ----> 200---->250---->275

Is Pakistan even able to keep up this order itself? Evem with knocked down kits from China I can't see such an order being fulfilled solely from PAC especially since so far all JF-17/FC-1s have been from Chengdu. I wonder what the percentage from planes dirctly from China compared to those in Pakistan will be.

[Munir]

They are probably ready to replace even more other types. The faster they add BVR in big numbers the better the airforce will become. Whether J10 is that much better. I don;t think it is much better and certainly not in all fields.