New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[tphuang]

An article there talking about export of K-8/JF-17. One of the highlighted area suggests that JF-17 will be ordered by PLAAF. This is published by HKB (aviation daily) in China, so it's a pretty good source, but not sure if that comment is an official statement or just the author's opinion on the matter.

[SABRE]

Originally Posted by tphuang

An article there talking about export of K-8/JF-17. One of the highlighted area suggests that JF-17 will be ordered by PLAAF. This is published by HKB (aviation daily) in China, so it's a pretty good source, but not sure if that comment is an official statement or just the author's opinion on the matter.

Any mention of export of K-8 & JF-17 to which country/countries?

[jawad]

Pictures of JF-17 by M.ASIF.AMIN from Ideas 2008

[Munir]

Originally Posted by tphuang

An article there talking about export of K-8/JF-17. One of the highlighted area suggests that JF-17 will be ordered by PLAAF. This is published by HKB (aviation daily) in China, so it's a pretty good source, but not sure if that comment is an official statement or just the author's opinion on the matter.

It reminds me of some discussions here, *********** and keymag where some were 100% sure about it would never be ordered by PLAAF. Somehow we were better informed and did not need papers.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Munir

It reminds me of some discussions here, *********** and keymag where some were 100% sure about it would never be ordered by PLAAF. Somehow we were better informed and did not need papers.

what's wrong with that? Why do Pakistanis get so insulted if PLA watchers don't think PLAAF should order JF-17? PLAAF has its own concerns and needs, PLA watchers are better informed of that than anyone else. It's not meant to insult the Pakistan or anything like that.

[Londo Molari]

Some things are logical. Its like, there is no official source that says J-XX will be armed with air-to-air missiles. But obviously it will. Saying it won't is a bit absurd. Just like that, some people find the notion that China won't order any JF-17's is also absurd. Given their large fleet of obsolete fighters that need replacing, and the amount of time and effort they've put into JF-17, it is obvious that it will see significant service with China.

[crobato]

Actually its not absurd. The JF-17's development is noted with quite a bit of exception from other PLAAF aircraft.

For example, if PLAAF is sponsoring a particular plane project, prototypes of those planes can often be seen being tested in facilities like the CFTC and the FTTC, which is owned and controlled by the PLAAF.

If the plane is private venture or if the plane does not have the PLAAF onboard originally, the plane's development won't be enjoying the benefits of the facilities above. Hence planes like the L-15, FTC-2000 and the JF-17 never appeared in those facilities above, although planes like the J-10, J-11B, the J-8F, and JH-7A do. Even export planes like the F-8IIM and F-7MG don't show up in those facilities.

In effect, the JF-17 has been from the beginning, treated as an outsider by the PLAAF. The Chinese are not a monolithic entity, AVIC and PLAAF are two different organizations with different agendas. To put it simply, the PLAAF never placed any money or effort on the JF-17 so they have nothing to lose; its AVIC and CAC that put the money on it and would need to pull strings.

This does not mean the JF-17 won't be considered by the PLAAF, but it has to require some hard convincing, especially when considered against the J-10.

If you see JF-17s in the FTTC base, then you have evidence that the PLAAF is now seriously considering and testing it on their own.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Londo Molari

Some things are logical. Its like, there is no official source that says J-XX will be armed with air-to-air missiles. But obviously it will. Saying it won't is a bit absurd. Just like that, some people find the notion that China won't order any JF-17's is also absurd. Given their large fleet of obsolete fighters that need replacing, and the amount of time and effort they've put into JF-17, it is obvious that it will see significant service with China.

Clearly, it's not that simple. A portion of PLA watchers still don't think China will order JF-17s and we haven't officially seen anything yet. They could've just chosen to reduce the number of regiments if they wanted to (which is something they did when they retired J-6s).

[crobato]

They're still reducing the number of fighter regiments. For example, the entire 26th Division used to be three regiments of J-8IIs. Its been entirely reorganized as a special missions division with one regiment or better yet, a flight consisting of the KJ-2000 AWACS. Expect the division to show more odds and ends like helicopters, Y-8 High News and other miscellaneous. The three regiments of J-8IIs are effectively disbanded and their pilots and planes are either retired or moved elsewhere.

I don't mind having JF-17s with the PLAAF, but the stipulation should be that the plane must have domestic engine.

It is also important the JF-17 prototypes must have some air to air face offs against J-10s, J-11s, J-7s, and J-8IIs. Opinions of PLAAF pilots and senior officers would also count so its important to get PLAAF people to fly and test out the plane.

[Munir]

It wasn't said to insult anyone but just a reminder to say something about some posters with the explanantion that JF17 was largely inferior to J10 and why should China go for JF17 (or chinese name) if they could do a j10, j11 and even more... The world of forums is most informative yet sometimes terribly wrong. I predict that it was the same case about China exporting less advanced versions to Pakistan.

Probably the fact that Pakistan has experience of western planes (maintenance and flying) and the fact that they have innovative ideas, means that it has a lot to offer. China and Pakistan do complement eachother. They both will evolve but never alone.

[adeptitus]

Originally Posted by Munir

It wasn't said to insult anyone but just a reminder to say something about some posters with the explanantion that JF17 was largely inferior to J10 and why should China go for JF17 (or chinese name) if they could do a j10, j11 and even more... The world of forums is most informative yet sometimes terribly wrong. I predict that it was the same case about China exporting less advanced versions to Pakistan.

During the Cold War era, the idea was to have a high-lo mix, either by design (F-15 + F-16, Su-27 + MiG-29) or as result of old-new generation aircraft (Mirage F1 + Mirage 2000). Back then aircraft was more affordable on per unit basis.

But today the new generation aircraft are very expensive. Many AF can only afford to acquire one "new" multi-role fighter in numbers, so they must choose carefully and make sure that aircraft will serve effective armed deterrence over the next decade. Recently, the Norwegian AF opted for the F-35 over Gripen NG for that reason. Their defense institute concluded that the Gripen NG is inadequate versus Russian Sukhoi jets.

Some people don't like the JF-17/FC-1, because they see it as being inferior to other 4th generation jets (J-10, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27, etc), and is a "distraction" to allocating funds to better aircraft. But it's not as simple as that, there are many other considerations, such as replacing aircraft in existing high-low mix (Mirage III/V, J-7/MiG-21), domestic aviation industry development, benefits from tech transfers, being free from potential arms embargo, etc.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Munir

It wasn't said to insult anyone but just a reminder to say something about some posters with the explanantion that JF17 was largely inferior to J10 and why should China go for JF17 (or chinese name) if they could do a j10, j11 and even more... The world of forums is most informative yet sometimes terribly wrong. I predict that it was the same case about China exporting less advanced versions to Pakistan.

Probably the fact that Pakistan has experience of western planes (maintenance and flying) and the fact that they have innovative ideas, means that it has a lot to offer. China and Pakistan do complement eachother. They both will evolve but never alone.

JF-17 is largely inferior to J-10. Even PAF is saying that with its FC-20 purchase. The question has always been how China wants to equip the regiments not using J-10/J-11B/JH-7A especially when J-8s are still around. Then, you have L-15 in the picture too. At this moment, nothing is official. The only thing we can say is that things are starting to look good for JF-17 thanks to good work of CAC.

As for exporting less advanced version to Pakistan, it's not against Pakistan. It's a simple fact that China never exports its best stuff to anyone. For some reason, that's offensive to you.

By the way, which part of JF-17 and J-10s are due to Pakistan's innovative ideas? I'm curious.

[Londo Molari]

How is it a fact that China never exports its best stuff?

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Londo Molari

How is it a fact that China never exports its best stuff?

Have you seen it exporting its best stuff in the past 10 years?

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by tphuang

Have you seen it exporting its best stuff in the past 10 years?

Well to be fair its not like China had a whole slew of high quality stuff to export until the past couple of years. F-7s, A-5s, and Type 69s weren't exactly 'top of the line'