New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

Based on this and what you said earlier about J-7, it seems that PLAAF gets a highly subsidized price for J-10 and FC-1. But I'm talking about FC-1's market /export price, which cannot be lesser than small Hawk trainers.

so after the 50% premium which you say, an FC-1 will cost $23 million in the export market (without weapons). I doubt if it can compete against Fulcrums, that cost only a few million more.

it's not subsidized price, this is the real price. The real price is around 10 to 15 million each. As for export price, in the end of the day, they charge whatever is the most competitive. It's hard to see it going over $20 million each though.

Well, I'd still take Ria Novosti's estimate of $25-$30 mn as of March 2008. Crobato, the price over a decade ago must be inclusive of weapons, but this is only the flyaway price (IN paid $45 m per unit for MiG-29 KUB package).

well, mig-35 right now is probably going to be 40-50 million based on what I've been reading. Of course, old Mig-29s are a thing of past.

Maybe the reason why PLAAF has not announced any commitment to FC-1 is because though it's not much cheaper than a J-10, it does not have a proportionate performance. For it's 'backbone', PLAAF can as well induct more J-8s.

as I mentioned, they just haven't come up with the PLAAF versions yet. Certainly, with the slowness of the L-15 project, things are getting easier for jf-17. They will place orders.

I'm not counting PLAAF subsidies at all, but considering only the market price (or export price in PLAAF parlance) for the FC-1, without weapons. The equivalent price for MiG-29 is $25-30 mn (and along with weapons and training, it's $40 mn apiece as IN's purchase demonstrated). FC-1's market price with weapons will be in excess of $30 mn.

export price includes a lot of these stuff already. it's not plaaf subsides, that's the base price.

[Indianfighter]

Originally Posted by flyzies

Ok, but what will the export price be? Because after all, that is the price which China and Pakistan will be selling these planes at...

Exactly. You got it right : the price at which a customer will ultimately purchase an FC-1 piece, or in other words, the international market rate. No 50% premium and no local price to PLAAF.

This price is the one with which it will actually compete with Russian, Eu and US aircraft. The unit cost of a MiG-29 sold to Slovakia is between $25 - 30 mn minus weapons (Slovakia used it's old stock of Russian weapons). The cost for a Hawk trainer without weapons is $24 mn. With weapons, spares, and other assortments it is $40 mn as IN got for it's MiG-29 KUB. Pilot training and simulators don't add that much to unit cost.

So, that's what I'd like to know how much will a customer, say, Sudan, pay for FC-1 apiece.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

Exactly. You got it right : the price at which a customer will ultimately purchase an FC-1 piece, or in other words, the international market rate. No 50% premium and no local price to PLAAF.

This price is the one with which it will actually compete with Russian, Eu and US aircraft. The unit cost of a MiG-29 sold to Slovakia is between $25 - 30 mn minus weapons (Slovakia used it's old stock of Russian weapons). The cost for a Hawk trainer without weapons is $24 mn. With weapons, spares, and other assortments it is $40 mn as IN got for it's MiG-29 KUB. Pilot training and simulators don't add that much to unit cost.

So, that's what I'd like to know how much will a customer, say, Sudan, pay for FC-1 apiece.

Yeah right. Stop quoting used refurbished MiG-29s.

[Londo Molari]

Originally Posted by Pointblank

Not exactly....

Those nations seeking a more capable aircraft will fork over the money for the MiG-29. The MiG-29 has more range, a more powerful radar, and can carry more weapons, not to mention the more advanced avionics that can be incorporated.

A more comparable comparison would be to compare the MiG-29 to the J-10.

You completely missed my point. If you follow the discussion that I was replying to, you can see that I was not talking about nations seeking a more capable aircraft, but poor nations for whom a $15 million price tag is unbeatable for a brand new fourth generation fighter.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

I'm not saying that JF-17 faces competition from larger twin-engine Su-27/30, but rather that as even small air-forces (like Angola) demand no less than Su-27 or MiG-29 nowadays, they'll have apprehensions over aircraft that are not inducted in their home country.

Su-27 faces bigger logistics issue then JF-17, its bigger fighter, and smaller countries would be better of with low cost small lightweight fighters instead of large fighters such as Su-27.

(Not reffering to your post on this half of the post)

Small countries dont need that kind of range to protect airspace, JF-17 is quite sufficient.

JF-17 project was distrubuted between 2 nations not 1, like the J-10, so expensive for each nation was ~$250 million.

[Indianfighter]

Originally Posted by crobato

Yeah right. Stop quoting used refurbished MiG-29s.

No the prices quoted in the Ria were clearly for new purchases.

Originally Posted by PrOeLiTeZ

Su-27 faces bigger logistics issue then JF-17, its bigger fighter, and smaller countries would be better of with low cost small lightweight fighters instead of large fighters such as Su-27.

Small countries dont need that kind of range to protect airspace, JF-17 is quite sufficient.

While I agree with your reasoning about Su-27 being much more maintenance heavy, the trend amongst small nations demonstrates otherwise. Anyway, JF-17's nearest competitor cost-wise, is the MiG-29. If for a just few more million dollars if one gets a twin-engine heavier combat aircraft, air-forces will go for it than an FC-1.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

No the prices quoted in the Ria were clearly for new purchases.


While I agree with your reasoning about Su-27 being much more maintenance heavy, the trend amongst small nations demonstrates otherwise. Anyway, JF-17's nearest competitor cost-wise, is the MiG-29. If for a just few more million dollars if one gets a twin-engine heavier combat aircraft, air-forces will go for it than an FC-1.

actually, the biggest competitor to JF-17 will be used F-16s that gets MLUed and possibly used/refurbished Mig-29s. countries get to decide whether they want a new fighter or an old fighter that's a little better.

[Pointblank]

Originally Posted by tphuang

actually, the biggest competitor to JF-17 will be used F-16s that gets MLUed and possibly used/refurbished Mig-29s. countries get to decide whether they want a new fighter or an old fighter that's a little better.

Or, more cynically, one with solid product support, one with questionable product support, and one with unknown product support.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

Chinese maintenance equipment are more flexible then the Russians remember that. Also countries can install other avionics and weapons besides Chinese on the JF-17 airframe while the Mig-29/Su-27 must be Russian and can only use Russian munitions. Still for small nations with small airfield they still prefer single engine lighweight fighter instead of a heaveyweight room consuming one such as Su-27 nor can the afford it purhcase them in decent numbers for aerial protection.

Main competitor for JF-17 isn't really the Su-27 nor Mig-29 it will be the F-16 variants. The unknown products will be an advantage to a degree cause opposing forces won't know its capabilities but the purchasing nation will. Element of suprise. Also every new aircraft is unknown, F-35/F-22 unknown yet nations want to buy them. Based on some claim and statistics. JF-17 would target the US-NATO embargo nations and would be alternative to Russian weapons. More flexibility in deciding and putting pressure on other nations to give better deals.

Its a cheap fighter but really effective...you don't get that kind of platform much nowdays...theory of mine is JF-17 was purely designed for export and for some technology experiment/learning....some articles also have said this too. Maybe small batch will be delivered to fill in gaps.
sorry for the OFF TOPIC

[chuahkimhua]

Originally Posted by PrOeLiTeZ

Su-27 faces bigger logistics issue then JF-17, its bigger fighter, and smaller countries would be better of with low cost small lightweight fighters instead of large fighters such as Su-27.

(Not reffering to your post on this half of the post)

Small countries dont need that kind of range to protect airspace, JF-17 is quite sufficient.

JF-17 project was distrubuted between 2 nations not 1, like the J-10, so expensive for each nation was ~$250 million.

JF-17 is a cheaper fighter more suitable to third world market. It is more affordable compare with Mig 29.
It is a good buy for its price!

[CAMP]

Originally Posted by PrOeLiTeZ

Chinese maintenance equipment are more flexible then the Russians remember that. Also countries can install other avionics and weapons besides Chinese on the JF-17 airframe while the Mig-29/Su-27 must be Russian and can only use Russian munitions.

Even IAF is using Mig-29 and Su-27 clone of Su-30, both this fighter jet share avionics and weapons of multnational companies.

Originally Posted by PrOeLiTeZ

Still for small nations with small airfield they still prefer single engine lighweight fighter instead of a heaveyweight room consuming one such as Su-27 nor can the afford it purhcase them in decent numbers for aerial protection.

I think it depends more or less upon the threat they are facing in and at the same time wheather their JF-17 would be capable enough to face that threat. Suppose if Airforce of a particuler country have to face aircrafts like F-16, Mig-29, Su-27 with advanced avionics then even JF-17 have to equipped with such advanced applications as well, on top of its Aerodynamics, Awacs, ground based radar station also plays a pivtol role.

Originally Posted by PrOeLiTeZ

Main competitor for JF-17 isn't really the Su-27 nor Mig-29 it will be the F-16 variants. The unknown products will be an advantage to a degree cause opposing forces won't know its capabilities but the purchasing nation will. Element of suprise.

I guess every nation do release some sort of a information about radar, avionics, weapons they carry and hence opponent not necessarily need to do brainstorm about unknown capability of JF-17.

[simonov]

Why PLAAF did not order FC-1 to replace J-7A/H fleet

[crobato]

Originally Posted by simonov

Why PLAAF did not order FC-1 to replace J-7A/H fleet

I am noticing that you have been asking a lot of simple questions here and in the CDF. People have a tendency to ignore questions with such obvious answers.

The answer to that is probably the PLAAF appears now to have larger requirements, and the FC-1 may not be deemed big enough. Hence the J-10 is the one that appears to be replacing J-7 regiments. Note the JH-7A is replacing Q-5 regiments, and the JH-7A is a much larger plane than the Q-5.

You have another question in the CDF and to answer that briefly, yes the J-8II is being retained and even upgraded in the current time even as J-10s and J-11Bs are being accepted.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

Originally Posted by CAMP

Even IAF is using Mig-29 and Su-27 clone of Su-30, both this fighter jet share avionics and weapons of multnational companies.





I think it depends more or less upon the threat they are facing in and at the same time wheather their JF-17 would be capable enough to face that threat. Suppose if Airforce of a particuler country have to face aircrafts like F-16, Mig-29, Su-27 with advanced avionics then even JF-17 have to equipped with such advanced applications as well, on top of its Aerodynamics, Awacs, ground based radar station also plays a pivtol role.




I guess every nation do release some sort of a information about radar, avionics, weapons they carry and hence opponent not necessarily need to do brainstorm about unknown capability of JF-17.

Hmm great idea with equipping AWACS, radars, weapons and other expensive stuff, but how are the going to PAY for it???? JF-17 is a multi-role fighter...keyword multi-role performs all task....

Your first paragraph are you trying to say something comparing to PLAAF with IAF cause it has nothing related to my previous post...(just curious -.-)

Wrong not every nation releases information. Yeah maybe releasing REALLY REALLY obvious information but nothing of its capabilities. J-10 was released ages ago before it was even officially acknowledged in service. And from then to present no information has been released much about it, and all of US request of seeing the J-10 have been denied. Pakistan has been privelaged though.

J-7 replacements J-10 much larger, Q-5 replacements JH-7A much larger. So they're not replacing light fighter with light fighters anymore they want heavier more capable birds now. JF-17 is really light and is less capable then J-10 doing less task.

[simonov]

thx crobato for the answers. tahts mean FC-1 never enter service in PLAAF?