New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[crobato]

I don't think anyone except you has tossed the J-7G and the F-16A into the same category. They're not the same, and are not comparable. In fact, the LFX program wanted a fighter that can counter the MiG-21. So stop saying what's obviously false, over and over.

When the LFX was concieved, it had something like the MiG-21 in mind, but the J-7G isn't just a mere MiG-21. The aerodynamics of the plane has been seriously changed by the new wing, and the avionics of the plane has a very decidedly Western bent. The engine of the plane actually belongs to a different generation of MiG-21, joined to the much lighter airframe of the original generation, creating a hot rod effect.

I am confident in the opinion that the J-7E/G are the best handling and most agile Fishbed designs ever. Against other MiG-21s, they can hold more than their own in WVR. I kind of think that the J-7E/G might hold with the F-16A (the type considered the most agile) on instantaneous turn rates, but fall quickly behind on sustained turn rates.

China is still producing "outdated" weapon systems because it doesn't need anything better since they are still more capable than what many of China's neighbors possess.

Not if these neighbors include F-16 Block 20s, Mirage 2000-5s, Block 52s, the most modern F-15 type (F-15K), and the Su-30MKI.

Also, according to a defensive policy, the PLA strength lies in numbers. This is common sense when you are borded by 14 countries and don't have sufficient resource or skill to overshadow them by technological superiority. Don't underestimate the J-7G or other old model upgrades, because they still pack a punch when armed with the right missile systems and used as fire support. Although China started off late industrializing, its military developments have almost caught up with that of the West, shortening the 50 year lag to at least 20 years for the PLAAF, maybe 15 years for the PLAN, and 10 years for the PLA. This difference is likely to become (exponentially) shorter in the coming years.

That was the original belief of the PLAAF, but it seems to be changing now. They are admitting indirectly they won't be replacing planes number by number and will try to go with a smaller but much more technologically capable force instead.

Economics play a part of it too. A small but much more modern force can have capabilities greater or equal than a much more numerous but technically lower level force. And yet this smaller but more modern force can also be cheaper to maintain, starting with less mouths to feed, pay salaries, train, to house, and all that. Less planes to maintain, repair, fuel and all that.

Consider for example, the J-7E/G has a more limited radar. So the range isn't quite high, although the plane has RWRs. To give the plane the situational awareness it needs, it would tax more on the resources of your command network like AWACS and your GCI than lets say a more advanced fighter.

I feel that the plane is being used more as a training fighter so the pilots can log hours, train, wargame, and eventually, move on to more advanced jets.

J-8F is a little different. Its BVR capability and speed gives it an edge but its lack of agility can be problematic when it has to evade opposing AAMs. Lets not forget that those turbojets eat up too much gas, and on the J-8F, its double of that of the J-7E/G (both use the same turbojet).

Whatever reasons why both legacy fighters are being kept, its now out of the window circa 2007 with the J-10 now official. In China there seems to be some kind of bureaucratic inertia that seems almost unstoppable, and they're not so kin in closing down assembly lines and laying off trained workers, especially in the defense industry. At the same time, the PLAAF still hasn't completely replaced (far from it) the large numbers of Q-5s, older J-7 models and older J-8II models. So there you go, you have peacetime reasons of keeping assembly lines employed, and pilots still flying. But tactically, its not very advantageous. Its a fantasy to think it can hold up against some of the more advanced fighters in the region. The one consistent tactic these legacy planes can employ is to ambush, not to directly fight more advanced opponents, but to take them when these opponents are bothered with the more advanced PLAAF jets. To think that some of these legacy planes may still be around 15 years from now when JSFs abound. There is no future potentiality anymore.

The problem is worsened because the Su-27s that China bought and licensed, that was supposed to help modernize the fleet, aren't that modern themselves in terms of avionics, so even these are falling behind the curve.

Last year, it seems that China is still producing enough J-7Gs and J-8Fs to replace at a rate of one regiment of each type per year (avg. 32 aircraft). Considering these are old designs whose assembly facilities are long amortized, that won't dent the budget, but even these numbers are not even enough to help quickly modernize the rest of the rapidly aging fleet.

[Gollevainen]

Now this is the last warning, Kilo636, stop pissing into eletric wire (deliberatly seeking confrontation with mods), it will snap any given moment. And Alwaysfresh, leave the moderation to mods, Thank You.

If I have to use colours once again in this thread, the one causing it gets boot, Understood?

[maozedong]

PLA will buy several hundred FC-1
Hou Shuping ,Yang Xinggen Reporter Du becomes the intern Li fine jade 2,006, is doomed for a year in the Chinese aviation history which is attracts worldwide attention: Is the year on December 29, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter J-10 disclassied. Is the year on April 28, on May 10, our country has the completely independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon 04 airplanes, two time spatially tests by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, hovers one after another the blue sky; In December, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 payment, becomes flies the group to sell the income to top 7 billion Yuan. But 45 year-old Luo Ronghuai, is the written above miracle becomes flies the group to operate the rudder the person. The good dream reaches the clouds As serviceman's descendant, Luo Ronghuai on fills since childhood to the blue sky yearned for that, When in 1978 filled in the university wish, he has reported the aviation colleges and universities without hesitation, was admitted the Nanjing aeronautical institute to study the airplane design. The university graduated from 1982 to becomes flies the test flight station, from when the labor entertainer called in to 1984 flies the corporate office worked as the secretary, again to 1992, was appointed airplane company 15 workshop directors, subsequently was becomes flies the company production control to be long, vice- chief engineer, deputy general manager, general manager. More than 20 years time over qickly, Luo Ronghuai leaves his youth the dream to be more and more near. Last year, Luo Ronghuai returned to south the alma mater the navigation, has made a topic was "Keeps watch Daytime" the lecture in front of the fellow female apprentice. "The blue sky is the our aviation person's institute of ideal, we must like keep watch own spiritual home such, ours ideal, the aspiration, the mission, the responsibility, the youth, the fervor, the wisdom, the painstaking care, the sweat condenses to the aviation enterprise in, by the life The absolute sincerity loyalty keeps watch it... ... " More than two hours, Luo Ronghuai the fervor turned the head own for more than 20 years to pursue the dream course, the entire audience bursts into thunderous applause, the tears fluttered about. The owlet dragon leaves the sheath In March, 2003, Luo Ronghuai holds the post flies group company chairmen of the board, general manager. Beginning gets to work, the key model project is entering the decisive battle time, the multi- strip front comprehensively unfolds, the production organization coordinated difficulty is enormous, the fund becomes the prominent question, adds it "the non- standard" the epidemic situation surprise attack, is as if intentionally suffers this position "young chief". For many years, has become flies the group although to establish the great merit for the national defense enterprise, its output value actually continuously paces back and forth in several in the hundreds million, Luo Ronghuai believed, this with becomes the status which flies not to be extremely symmetric. "Must break through, lets fly realizes a series of leaps!" Just took up an official post Luo Ronghuai pledged. Actually, Luo Ronghuai has aimed at the breach the owlet dragon 01 fighter planes which soon takes off. On August 25, 2003, is all becomes the flier to raise eyebrow the day: The owlet dragon fighter plane is taken to the threshing ground to fly. This day, 42 year-old scene commander in chief Luo Ronghuai, especially put on bright red T-shirt --he want to use 大吉大利 Chinese red to pray for the heart in dream; The owlet dragon 01 fighter planes howl are piercing the vault of heaven that moment, entire audience's people all are cheering jump for joy, but Luo Ronghuai actually tears crossflow. The head flew successfully! From August 25 to September 2, the slender dragon 01 fighter planes companies flies 8 rises and falls, is complete every time. Very quickly entered the evasion, this flies in the history in any model type is unprecedented. As soon as flies flushes the day On April 9, 2004 17 o'clock 30 minute, the owlet dragon 03 straight thrusts blue sky, the owlet dragon 03 heads fly successfully, symbolized Cheng Feiyi has had the continual volume production owlet Long Ji ability. On April 28, 2006, on May 10, the owlet dragon 04 hovers the blue sky, symbolized our country independently develops, has the international advanced level, has the independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon light fighter plane two time "spatially to test" by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, has laid the foundation for the volume production and the exportation. In December, 2006, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 smooth payment, symbolized our country aviation industry completely faces the market for the first time; On December 29, 2006, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter plane J10 machine to shoot up to the sky! According to Luo Ronghuai disclosed that, at present, overseas customer to owlet dragon airplane interest very large, ejected more than 200 intent order form; The PLA air force also in aggressively carries on the proof, the ordering quantity not under to several hundred. According to the forecast, future 20 years, the whole world will have to increase civil airplane 27,200, the Chinese market will only need more than 1,700 civil airplanes, the total value will reach as high as 230 billion US dollars. Luo Ronghuai said that, the next step, their goal will aim at this giant cake, greatly will do especially does
http://jczs.news.sina.com.cn/p/2007-...740430564.html
transtale by babel fish translation

[crobato]

So does the PLAAF really has such a budget tightrope, that they need to procure several hundred FC-1 rather than J-10? What's that thing about as much as 1200 J-10s maybe made during the plane's lifetime?

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by maozedong

http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/p/2007-...0208074007.jpg
PLA will buy several hundred FC-1
Hou Shuping ,Yang Xinggen Reporter Du becomes the intern Li fine jade 2,006, is doomed for a year in the Chinese aviation history which is attracts worldwide attention: Is the year on December 29, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter J-10 disclassied. Is the year on April 28, on May 10, our country has the completely independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon 04 airplanes, two time spatially tests by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, hovers one after another the blue sky; In December, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 payment, becomes flies the group to sell the income to top 7 billion Yuan. But 45 year-old Luo Ronghuai, is the written above miracle becomes flies the group to operate the rudder the person. The good dream reaches the clouds As serviceman's descendant, Luo Ronghuai on fills since childhood to the blue sky yearned for that, When in 1978 filled in the university wish, he has reported the aviation colleges and universities without hesitation, was admitted the Nanjing aeronautical institute to study the airplane design. The university graduated from 1982 to becomes flies the test flight station, from when the labor entertainer called in to 1984 flies the corporate office worked as the secretary, again to 1992, was appointed airplane company 15 workshop directors, subsequently was becomes flies the company production control to be long, vice- chief engineer, deputy general manager, general manager. More than 20 years time over qickly, Luo Ronghuai leaves his youth the dream to be more and more near. Last year, Luo Ronghuai returned to south the alma mater the navigation, has made a topic was "Keeps watch Daytime" the lecture in front of the fellow female apprentice. "The blue sky is the our aviation person's institute of ideal, we must like keep watch own spiritual home such, ours ideal, the aspiration, the mission, the responsibility, the youth, the fervor, the wisdom, the painstaking care, the sweat condenses to the aviation enterprise in, by the life The absolute sincerity loyalty keeps watch it... ... " More than two hours, Luo Ronghuai the fervor turned the head own for more than 20 years to pursue the dream course, the entire audience bursts into thunderous applause, the tears fluttered about. The owlet dragon leaves the sheath In March, 2003, Luo Ronghuai holds the post flies group company chairmen of the board, general manager. Beginning gets to work, the key model project is entering the decisive battle time, the multi- strip front comprehensively unfolds, the production organization coordinated difficulty is enormous, the fund becomes the prominent question, adds it "the non- standard" the epidemic situation surprise attack, is as if intentionally suffers this position "young chief". For many years, has become flies the group although to establish the great merit for the national defense enterprise, its output value actually continuously paces back and forth in several in the hundreds million, Luo Ronghuai believed, this with becomes the status which flies not to be extremely symmetric. "Must break through, lets fly realizes a series of leaps!" Just took up an official post Luo Ronghuai pledged. Actually, Luo Ronghuai has aimed at the breach the owlet dragon 01 fighter planes which soon takes off. On August 25, 2003, is all becomes the flier to raise eyebrow the day: The owlet dragon fighter plane is taken to the threshing ground to fly. This day, 42 year-old scene commander in chief Luo Ronghuai, especially put on bright red T-shirt --he want to use 大吉大利 Chinese red to pray for the heart in dream; The owlet dragon 01 fighter planes howl are piercing the vault of heaven that moment, entire audience's people all are cheering jump for joy, but Luo Ronghuai actually tears crossflow. The head flew successfully! From August 25 to September 2, the slender dragon 01 fighter planes companies flies 8 rises and falls, is complete every time. Very quickly entered the evasion, this flies in the history in any model type is unprecedented. As soon as flies flushes the day On April 9, 2004 17 o'clock 30 minute, the owlet dragon 03 straight thrusts blue sky, the owlet dragon 03 heads fly successfully, symbolized Cheng Feiyi has had the continual volume production owlet Long Ji ability. On April 28, 2006, on May 10, the owlet dragon 04 hovers the blue sky, symbolized our country independently develops, has the international advanced level, has the independent intellectual property rights the owlet dragon light fighter plane two time "spatially to test" by the full page condition goes through a strategic pass, has laid the foundation for the volume production and the exportation. In December, 2006, becomes the our country first frame which flies undertakes to have the independent intellectual property rights the new branch passenger plane nose -ARJ21 smooth payment, symbolized our country aviation industry completely faces the market for the first time; On December 29, 2006, the our country independent development has the international advanced level the new generation of high performance, multipurpose, the all-weather fighter plane J10 machine to shoot up to the sky! According to Luo Ronghuai disclosed that, at present, overseas customer to owlet dragon airplane interest very large, ejected more than 200 intent order form; The PLA air force also in aggressively carries on the proof, the ordering quantity not under to several hundred. According to the forecast, future 20 years, the whole world will have to increase civil airplane 27,200, the Chinese market will only need more than 1,700 civil airplanes, the total value will reach as high as 230 billion US dollars. Luo Ronghuai said that, the next step, their goal will aim at this giant cake, greatly will do especially does
http://jczs.news.sina.com.cn/p/2007-...740430564.html
transtale by babel fish translation

if you looked carefully, I already posted this article on last page of this thread. Please don't repeat. I have no doubt that they can get more than 200 export orders for JF-17, but I'm not sure about domestic orders. I personally would not go for any, but that's just me.

[pshamim]

Originally Posted by crobato

So does the PLAAF really has such a budget tightrope, that they need to procure several hundred FC-1 rather than J-10? What's that thing about as much as 1200 J-10s maybe made during the plane's lifetime?

May be they know a little bit more about the Xialong than what you and I do. One thing is for sure that they will not be exposing J-10s in a big way to the export market. Also replacing every old aircraft in PLAAF by J-10 is purely a wishful thinking on the part of some. Capabilities and economics will dictate what PLAAF does and not what we say on these forums.

Contrary to many posters on this forum, I strongly believe that Fc-1 needs to be purchased by PLAAF in order for it to be an effective export aircraft. Secondly, this aircraft is going through a lot of continuing development. A FC-1/JF-17 in few years may turn out to a far advanced aircraft than the one we see today. Even on a daily basis, we find something new.

[maozedong]

Originally Posted by tphuang

if you looked carefully, I already posted this article on last page of this thread. Please don't repeat. I have no doubt that they can get more than 200 export orders for JF-17, but I'm not sure about domestic orders. I personally would not go for any, but that's just me.

sorry about that,the article I just found out at first page in that websit as the news today, I didn't know this article already old.
I will check carefull next time.

this is another my thinking respond to some body post above.
I think all J-7 should be retire, J-10 maybe too expansive, and should not produce too much, China will go for the 4th genration new fighters, like J-13,J-14.
in this time use FC-1 instead of J-7 is better idea,it is cheaper but mordern, at least FC-1 can launch PL12.
about J-10 will produce 1200 just KanWa editor Mr.PKF make a guess, but if for export that J-10 mayby go up to this amount include PLAAF needs.
I also make a guess.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by pshamim

May be they know a little bit more about the Xialong than what you and I do. One thing is for sure that they will not be exposing J-10s in a big way to the export market. Also replacing every old aircraft in PLAAF by J-10 is purely a wishful thinking on the part of some. Capabilities and economics will dictate what PLAAF does and not what we say on these forums.

Contrary to many posters on this forum, I strongly believe that Fc-1 needs to be purchased by PLAAF in order for it to be an effective export aircraft. Secondly, this aircraft is going through a lot of continuing development. A FC-1/JF-17 in few years may turn out to a far advanced aircraft than the one we see today. Even on a daily basis, we find something new.

You see the thing is, the FC-1/JF-17 has yet to receive an official PLA designation even up to this point. So whatever we may be hearing are proposals and plans that may not even be concrete.

What we do know is that as of late, the PLAAF is very meticulous and has a mania for testing. For the FC-1 to have a final fate with the PLAAF, it has be extensively tested and even matched against other Chinese fighters including the J-11 and the J-10. This is not suggesting that the FC-1 has to win over the J-10 in every mock dogfights, but at least achieve a respectable showing, and perhaps come out stronger against the other Jian types, the J-11B, J-7G, and J-8F. Against the J-10, the FC-1 is going to face a plane that has better instantaneous turn rates, probably quite significantly so, faster with better turn rates in high subsonic to supersonic regimes, and also probably better in the vertical plane.

The price is also something the PLAAF has to consider. The problem is, if you are buying more FC-1s and less J-10s, that can result in the J-10 prices going up, and whatever savings you get from the FC-1 cost, you are losing it on the higher J-10 cost. Likewise, this has a cascading domino effect on the prices of even the J-11B and JH-7A, once these plane volumes are also reduced.

To have room for both single engined fighters, the future PLAAF will have to end up being numerically big, quite against their statements of downsizing and going for technology instead,

The FC-1 wasn't exactly concieved with PLAAF approval, wishes or specification, and that has set something against the plane, which is sometimes viewed like an outsider. Furthermore, the PLAAF seems to be in the grip of a "heavy fighter mafia" that may have arose in the nineties after the adoption of Flankers in the air force. Before that the PLAAF has been in the control of a light fighter mafia that favors small fighters en masse decimating the enemy in concentrations. The heavy fighter mafia, similar to the bomber or fighter bomber mafia that gripped the USAF and USN in the sixties, leading to planes like the F-4 Phantom and F-105 Thunderchief, argue that the best way to obtain air superiority is to destroy the opponent on the ground. This doctrine favors large fast fighters with large payloads. The J-10 was concieved when the light fighter mafia was in control of the PLAAF. But this, and the FC-1, maybe the last single engined fighters to appear in the PLAAF, as it looks like the next projects will all be twin engined, starting from the medium weight standpoint.

Thus in a way, the FC-1 is an outsider. The outsider phenomenon occured with two famous American lightweight fighters, the F-104 Starfighter and the F-5A/E Freedom Fighter and Tiger II series. Both of whom were not acquired by the USAF, at least not in any large number (only relatively few Starfighters and F-5s only in Aggressor roles). Yet both become massive export successes, which suggests you don't really need adoption by the mother airforce to become successful outside.

But then of course, the most successful outsider of all was the F-16, as the LWF program was something that came out all of sudden, when in the skies of Vietnam, large and heavy fighters are having their problems facing light and more nimble opponents.

So the thing is, how much in the PLAAF believe in the Heavy Fighter approach, and how much still believes in the Light Fighter approach.

We all agree and with quite much surprise, that the FC-1 continues to evolve and become better. No one would have anticipated all the changes and even the rapidity things are happening even when FC-1 advocates are tenaciously arguing just a few years ago.

I do think there are some cards CAC has yet to play. We are seeing interesting developments on another aircraft, the J-11B, features that could be added to the FC-1 at little cost. For example, the 3D holographic wide angle HUD. Another, just recently, is the optical missile approach warning reciever. Satellite uplink for navigation. Another, which we are seeing in the JH-7A, are optical channels for TV guided weapons.

I also think that using an indigenous engine will help make a big difference in the minds of the leaders. Citing better performance, lower cost, easier home grown maintenance, and support for local industries and employment. (You have a feelling that there are many in the CMC and PLA that share skepticism on Russian equipment as many forum members on this board and others.)

[pshamim]

[QUOTE=crobato;55512]
Thus in a way, the FC-1 is an outsider. The outsider phenomenon occured with two famous American lightweight fighters, the F-104 Starfighter and the F-5A/E Freedom Fighter and Tiger II series. Both of whom were not acquired by the USAF, at least not in any large number (only relatively few Starfighters and F-5s only in Aggressor roles). Yet both become massive export successes, which suggests you don't really need adoption by the mother airforce to become successful outside.

But then of course, the most successful outsider of all was the F-16, as the LWF program was something that came out all of sudden, when in the skies of Vietnam, large and heavy fighters are having their problems facing light and more nimble opponents.QUOTE]

Crobato,
I agree with most of what you said. But the three aircrafts that I have been very closely associated with have been F-86, F-104s and the F-16s. The last one being associated as a member of the F-16s International team with General Dynamics.

Re: F-104s, USAF did buy between 300-400 aircrafts. F-104s were one of the most ineffective and incapable crafts. They were not export success but still found their way into several Air Forces as US pushed them as unwanted rewards to its allies in arms. They were touted as the fastest jet in the world and many bought because they wanted their Air Forces to project as a modern force.

Re: F-16 was conceived after the success of F-86s, an aircraft I flew. Also as result of F-4s failures during the Vietnam war, USAF did realize that they needed a highly maneuverable aircraft and F-4 did not provide that. F-4s shortcomings included low maneuverability, large size, poor transient performance, to name a few.

Some of these shortcomings were overcome by the introduction of F-15s. Now this was a plane that USAF wanted and opposed the development of LWF as it did not want it to be a threat to its F-15s.

As we all know that the supporters of the F-16 program won out finally because they considered a light weight, highly maneuverable, able to fight in the combat speed etc etc which the heavy two engines F-15s could not do.
Well, that was a great decision back in 1971 and the new F-16 started to roll out in 1978. No other jet aircraft was ever produced in USA more than the F-16s and no other aircraft was ever inducted in USAF beside the large number of exports as well.

We now see a similar situation now with PLAAF and many others who consider the J-10s as its main aircraft and wants no competition just like we saw in late 60s.

In my humble opinion, J-10s are not going to be the sole answer for PLAAF.

[maglomanic]

Shamim Saheb,
Thanks for your detailed replies. However one question pops up in my mind, is J-10 really a heavy enough fighter for PLAAF, it being a single engined plane more in F-16 league itself ?? Heavy and light weigth comparison (like F-15 and F-16) would make much more sense when we are comparing Flankers and J-10 IMHO.

However i too see some role for FC-1 in PLAAF/PLAN, minimal it maybe however.

[RedMercury]

Here's a thought. All this talk about amortizing R&D costs so that buying more planes would reduce the per unit cost...doesn't make sense if you think about those R&D costs as sunk.

Generally, you shouldn't let sunk costs influence your decisions, because those costs have already been paid and don't matter whichever choice you make. Now, since the cost of R&D is sunk, the only thing you weigh when you think about acquisition of a fighter is its unit production cost, operational/maintenance/logistics/training/deployment cost, and opportuninty cost (e.g. factory could be making something else, pilots could be flying something else, jetfuel could be burned in something else, etc.).

You decide whether to start (or continue a preliminary) project based on the projected ammortized costs, which depend on how many planes you plan to make.

But once you've made the decision to go and the plane has been developed, that R&D cost is sunk, it doesn't make sense to say "let's buy more, because we'll save more". It is like buying something you don't need because it is on sale and you would "save" money. You should make the decision on the merits versus the future costs alone.

(Of course I'm ignoring the details such as maintenance, support, and continued development.)

[crobato]

Originally Posted by maglomanic

Shamim Saheb,
Thanks for your detailed replies. However one question pops up in my mind, is J-10 really a heavy enough fighter for PLAAF, it being a single engined plane more in F-16 league itself ?? Heavy and light weigth comparison (like F-15 and F-16) would make much more sense when we are comparing Flankers and J-10 IMHO.

However i too see some role for FC-1 in PLAAF/PLAN, minimal it maybe however.

That's the point. The J-10 is also a small single engined fighter. The relationship between the FC-1 and the J-10 isn't like the F-16 vs. F-15, its much more like the F-20 Tigershark vs. the F-16. And we know what eventually happened to the F-20 Tigershark.

We also look at the experience of the ROCAF. The F-CK-1 is about the same class weight, and actually has slightly better thrust than the current RD-93 powered FC-1. The twin TFE-1042s produce a combined thrust of 8900kg and the plane comes in at en empty weight of 6450kg. But the ROCAF preference is towards the F-16 and M2000-5. It will be interesting to see the improvements of the C/D versions of the F-CK-1. In absolute terms, the ROCAF believes the plane turns tighter than an F-5E and accelerates better than an F-104. It has a fairly well developed avionics suite that supports BVRAAM, AshMs, AGMs and TV guided PGMs, plus robust networking. One can say the F-CK-1 has achieved what the FC-1 is trying to do but did it more than a dozen years ago. But it does have an extremely short range. Two engines eat more fuel than one, and the internal fuel capacity of the F-CK-1 appears smaller than the FC-1.

There are three other planes in the super light category. There is obviously the Tejas, which isn't finished yet, the Korean A-50, which has yet to morph a true single seat fighter version. And then there is the Gripen, which I think represents the state of the art of the superlights.

One can say, its the PLAAF that wanted the Flanker to be its main frontline fighter, supported modern light fighters and upgraded legacy fighters. How the J-10 performed appeared to have upset the order of these plans, putting both J-11B and FC-1 programs under a microscope, and may have accelerated the phase out of J-7G and J-8F. Once someone has tasted better, they tend to raise their standards.

This is not to say however, that all the other programs are going to stand still and let themselves be hit. The J-11B is going to fight back and we are seeing some surprising features being put into the plane. For the FC-1 that means another round of changes that will upgrade its standard. I would like to see the FC-1 for example, get the J-11B's holographic HUD, sensors like the MAWS in the J-11B, and most importantly get the domestic engine, which to start with is more powerful than the RD-93, and can score additional political and economic points for being domestic.

[SteelBird]

There is one more thing I'd like to add on what Crobato has said about the expection on FC-1's domestic engine is that an engine with more power and clean than the RD-93. I watched the 04's flight, the RD-93 somehow still produce a long black smoke tail. I heard somewhere (in this forum) that Pakistan side request to cut off the smoke tail or else it won't accept the AC. China's explain was it didn't use the standard aircraft fuel. But to me, I think this is the nature of the engine rather than fuel problem.

[asaracen]

Pshamim to Crobato,
I agree with most of what you said. But the three aircrafts that I have been very closely associated with have been F-86, F-104s and the F-16s. The last one being associated as a member of the F-16s International team with General Dynamics.

Re: F-104s, USAF did buy between 300-400 aircrafts. F-104s were one of the most ineffective and incapable crafts. They were not export success but still found their way into several Air Forces as US pushed them as unwanted rewards to its allies in arms. They were touted as the fastest jet in the world and many bought because they wanted their Air Forces to project as a modern force.

Re: F-16 was conceived after the success of F-86s, an aircraft I flew. Also as result of F-4s failures during the Vietnam war, USAF did realize that they needed a highly maneuverable aircraft and F-4 did not provide that. F-4s shortcomings included low maneuverability, large size, poor transient performance, to name a few.

Some of these shortcomings were overcome by the introduction of F-15s. Now this was a plane that USAF wanted and opposed the development of LWF as it did not want it to be a threat to its F-15s.

As we all know that the supporters of the F-16 program won out finally because they considered a light weight, highly maneuverable, able to fight in the combat speed etc etc which the heavy two engines F-15s could not do.
Well, that was a great decision back in 1971 and the new F-16 started to roll out in 1978. No other jet aircraft was ever produced in USA more than the F-16s and no other aircraft was ever inducted in USAF beside the large number of exports as well.

We now see a similar situation now with PLAAF and many others who consider the J-10s as its main aircraft and wants no competition just like we saw in late 60s.

In my humble opinion, J-10s are not going to be the sole answer for PLAAF.


I atotally agree with Pshamim, as there are horses for courses, and JF-17 / FC-1 is a serious contender in its category. I would imagine developing A/C deployment doctrines for each country would be a complex affair and context / scenario based. Now China, still a poor and developing country, would definitely factor in the huge price differential between the J10 and FC-1when you consider how many hundreds of absolutely antiquated fighters they have to replace in the coming decade.
We all are entitled to our opinions, but there is enormous difference between the assessment and opinions of an F86 veteran pilot / international consultant like Pshamin, and some of us, armchair warriors, limited to mostly regurgitating others opinions. Looking at the quality of Pshamim's contributions elsewhere, I believe his credibility to be an order of magnitude higher compared with some of armch.........

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by asaracen

Pshamim to Crobato,
I agree with most of what you said. But the three aircrafts that I have been very closely associated with have been F-86, F-104s and the F-16s. The last one being associated as a member of the F-16s International team with General Dynamics.

Re: F-104s, USAF did buy between 300-400 aircrafts. F-104s were one of the most ineffective and incapable crafts. They were not export success but still found their way into several Air Forces as US pushed them as unwanted rewards to its allies in arms. They were touted as the fastest jet in the world and many bought because they wanted their Air Forces to project as a modern force.

Re: F-16 was conceived after the success of F-86s, an aircraft I flew. Also as result of F-4s failures during the Vietnam war, USAF did realize that they needed a highly maneuverable aircraft and F-4 did not provide that. F-4s shortcomings included low maneuverability, large size, poor transient performance, to name a few.

Some of these shortcomings were overcome by the introduction of F-15s. Now this was a plane that USAF wanted and opposed the development of LWF as it did not want it to be a threat to its F-15s.

As we all know that the supporters of the F-16 program won out finally because they considered a light weight, highly maneuverable, able to fight in the combat speed etc etc which the heavy two engines F-15s could not do.
Well, that was a great decision back in 1971 and the new F-16 started to roll out in 1978. No other jet aircraft was ever produced in USA more than the F-16s and no other aircraft was ever inducted in USAF beside the large number of exports as well.

We now see a similar situation now with PLAAF and many others who consider the J-10s as its main aircraft and wants no competition just like we saw in late 60s.

In my humble opinion, J-10s are not going to be the sole answer for PLAAF.


I atotally agree with Pshamim, as there are horses for courses, and JF-17 / FC-1 is a serious contender in its category. I would imagine developing A/C deployment doctrines for each country would be a complex affair and context / scenario based. Now China, still a poor and developing country, would definitely factor in the huge price differential between the J10 and FC-1when you consider how many hundreds of absolutely antiquated fighters they have to replace in the coming decade.
We all are entitled to our opinions, but there is enormous difference between the assessment and opinions of an F86 veteran pilot / international consultant like Pshamin, and some of us, armchair warriors, limited to mostly regurgitating others opinions. Looking at the quality of Pshamim's contributions elsewhere, I believe his credibility to be an order of magnitude higher compared with some of armch.........

huh? I think even Pshamim would tell you that when it comes to the requirements and needs of plaaf, he is not as knowledgeable as someone like Crobato.

If you want to argue for a place for FC-1 in plaaf, then please find a real explanation on why it should be this way. For example, give a ball park number on what you think the price of J-10 is and what FC-1 is and what are the cost to performance ratio and such.