New J-10 Thread III

[crobato]

This will be our new thread for J-10 discussion. Fresh for the coming new year.

Last current topic is sightings and reports of alleged J-10B prototype having its first flight.

[Diving Falcon]

Well maybe a hint of what J-10B could do; last month PAF said it was going to procure FC-20 with thrust-vectoring capability. Although the 2010 date for induction is way too soon, I think it will ultimately be pushed up to 2012-2014.

Pakstan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said.

http://www.daily.pk/local/other-loca...er-planes.html

[the spectator]

The supposedly j-10b with the dsi is photoshopped.

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by the spectator

The supposedly j-10b with the dsi is photoshopped.

I thought so, it would seem ridiculous to be able to suddently change the intake like that after only a few years of service with the J-10A. Is the rest of the J-10B rumours also 'suspect' you think? Tphuang seemed pretty sure about the other information

[AssassinsMace]

Well that doesn't really mean anything because the FC-1/JF-17 didn't have DSI in the beginning until I believe the 04 made its appearance in a shorter amount time.

[escobar]

i don't understand why many people want to see j 10b with dsi

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by escobar

i don't understand why many people want to see j 10b with dsi

My guess its mainly an aesthetics thing IMO, internet forum posters often have a preconceived idea of what a 'cool modern fighter' is supposed to look like and therefore want the J-10 to have DSI intakes when in fact there are considerable trade-offs in performance compared to the chin mounted intake of the J-10A. Its all just fanboy fantasies I guess but rumour about DSI onthe J-10 have been swirlling around forever, I guess we'll find out when we actually get some pictures (either real or photoshopped)

[RedMercury]

Sometimes obviously fake pictures or unrelated photos are actually very related. The posters are suggesting something without saying it, to avoid getting into too much trouble, plausible deniability, you may call it. So don't dismiss a photo just because it is photoshopped, there may be a reason behind bringing it up.

[AssassinsMace]

I believe some said of that CG art a couple years ago when it first came out was the DSI was exaggerated and the design not realistic.

[kickars]

Originally Posted by tphuang

he is not talking about JF-17 style tail design, but rather they are putting ECM package on tail like they did for JF-17. And by the way, thanks for your great work at re-awaking munir into arguing that JF-17 is amazing and China is lucky that this Pakistani assistance can be used to improve J-10, which is an overrated fighter jet hyped by Chinese fanboys.

Thanks for pointing out the ECM package move on the new J-10.

By the way, I don't know why you are acusing me of re-awaking someone into arguing how amazing JF-17 is. I was just simply let people on this forum kown what's happening on other Chinese military forum regarding to J-10B. Yes, it's my 'mistake' not pointing out the 'ECM package' part of the new design. But that's all I've done 'wrong'.

Okey, for the record I do not understand why people are even trying to discuss JF-17 VS J-10 here. IMO, they are just two different planes for countries have different use, and of cause with different fonds. Some people here may still not know the fact that if China has the tech which it wants, then it will have it no matter what. So let me put it straight, for China JF-17 is just not good enough. And J-10A is just about good enough till the new J-10B comes out. Hope I made my point clear, now.

[Twix101]

Using DSI Intakes permit to reduce maintenance costs, possibly reduce weight (no moving parts means, no valves, no pipes, etc...) you got several advantages with that.

Also, I hope to see better manufacturing of the structure, as we could see on high-res pictures of J-10A quality of structure assembling was variating following a random path... you could see a vintage type assembly beside a good quality assembly, it was like the aircraft had been modified several times (this is what I think). To conclude, it was far away from what you could notice on Western aircrafts like Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen or ever 80's aircrafts like F-16, Mirage etc...

[Lundblad.Jeff]

From the reports I have read, this is what I believe the J-10B would consist of:

-WS-10A or AL-31FN-M1 engine: The WS-10A has the advantage of being Chinese made but the AL-31FN-M1 engine is a more reliable and more powerful version of the AL-31FN. Reports indicated Russia has shipped a number of AL-31FN-M1 engines to China a while back.

-I don't expect thrust vectoring on the initial versions of the J-10B: Some reports said the AL-31FN-M1 engine had TV capability, but it doesn't and even if it did the Russia TV systems greatly reduce the engines MTBO. I don't think China yet has the technology to mass produce a TV engine.

-It will most likely be a single seater: Most fanboy art depicts a 2-seat J-10B but most aircraft designs start with a single seat design and later introduce a 2-seater. I think that the reason many artists depict the J-10B with two seats is because they misunderstand the Chinese numbering system. In the US f-16 for example, the single seat is the F-16A and the double seat is the F-16B but in China the J-10A is the single seater and the J-10S is the 2-seater.

-It will likely not have conformal fuel tanks: Much fanboy art puts conformal fuel tanks on the J-10B. Though this increases the range, it increases drag and weight. I don't think China would want this for their new dogfighter.

-It may or may not have a DSI inlet: Most reports seem to put the J-10B with DSI inlets, I think this is because it looks better, but there are real benefits to the DSI design and China has the technology to do so. My question is why not put a DSI inlet? As a plus, the revised inlet can have greatly reduced RCS.

-It will have an improved radar. This one is pretty much in the air. It could be just an improved radar from the J-10A, or it could be PESA or AESA. We don't know enough about China's latest radar technology to say for sure, but I doubt early J-10B's would have AESA.

-It will have an IRST system based off the J-11B, improved avionics, and RAM paint to reduce RCS.

We have to remember that China is relatively conservative in their designs so I wouldn't expect the J-10B to look much different than the J-10A on the outside.

[Totoro]

But seriously, what other small planes have IRSTs? I can think of Rafale, being the smallest plane with one. IF that is true, then J10 would become the owner of that title. PErhaps it is not easy to cram in an IRST onto a small plane, if there isn't space for it planned from its conception.

[Londo Molari]

Originally Posted by Lundblad.Jeff

-It may or may not have a DSI inlet: Most reports seem to put the J-10B with DSI inlets, I think this is because it looks better, but there are real benefits to the DSI design and China has the technology to do so. My question is why not put a DSI inlet?

Indeed, I don't know why many people seem to hate DSI here. Its advantages are three fold. They remove the need for variable-geometry air intakes, hide front facing engine components from enemy radar, and improve performance at high AoA.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by the spectator

The supposedly j-10b with the dsi is photoshopped.

That's not a photoshop, that's a CG. The intention of the author was to illustrate what a J-10B might look like. In the business its called an artist conception. I only hope the real thing won't look as aesthetically horrendous.