New J-10 thread II

[goldenpanda]

Most african countries just need J-7G with iron bombs. Their biggest challenge is keeping a modern fighter operational. J-7 is much cheaper to buy and operate.

[Schumacher]

Originally Posted by nonpilot

Hi Schumacher
Nothing with Sudan?

I think Sudan can neither afford nor need J-10. J-7 may be what they need, like what Panda said.

[szbd]

I have a question. I read from sinodefence.com that there is a twin engine J10 project under development. Are there any pictures or news related on that? Thanks.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by szbd

I have a question. I read from sinodefence.com that there is a twin engine J10 project under development. Are there any pictures or news related on that? Thanks.

There is definitely one under development, supposedly using two WS-10 series engine (how they can still call it J-10 is beyond me). Anyhow, no picture right now, you are not likely to see it fly until 2009 or later.

[szbd]

Thanks. Then what's the advantage of that over versions based on J11B?

[Schumacher]

Originally Posted by szbd

Thanks. Then what's the advantage of that over versions based on J11B?

What advantage ? Just guessing here. Any new version coming out in 09 not having far superior stealth characteristics than J-11B will be a waste of money IMO. Unless of course, the 'twin engined' is merely meant to be a naval version & not so much an advancement in terms of capabilities.
I think J-10 & J-11B will not cut it against what USAF will have. So PLAF shouldn't buy too many J-10 or J-11. Use them for exports instead & speed up development of the next generation J-xx or whatever. I suspect this thinking is not too far from the truth in PLAF given that they're still producing J-8 now, much to the amazement of some PLAF fans.

[goldenpanda]

Originally Posted by tphuang

There is definitely one under development, supposedly using two WS-10 series engine (how they can still call it J-10 is beyond me). Anyhow, no picture right now, you are not likely to see it fly until 2009 or later.

Sounds perfect for going on carrier. It should have folding wings, more range, and retain the low approach speed of J10. I think we should computerize carrier landing so we need the FBW system, which su33 doesn't seem to have.

[goldenpanda]

Originally Posted by Schumacher

What advantage ? Just guessing here. Any new version coming out in 09 not having far superior stealth characteristics than J-11B will be a waste of money IMO. Unless of course, the 'twin engined' is merely meant to be a naval version & not so much an advancement in terms of capabilities.
I think J-10 & J-11B will not cut it against what USAF will have. So PLAF shouldn't buy too many J-10 or J-11. Use them for exports instead & speed up development of the next generation J-xx or whatever. I suspect this thinking is not too far from the truth in PLAF given that they're still producing J-8 now, much to the amazement of some PLAF fans.

But USN won't be going stealthy for another 15-20 years. China has enough problems to think about just to get a jet plane on a ship, before it tries to get a *stealth* jet plane on a ship. In any case I doubt a Chinese CBG wants to take on US CBG anytime the next 30 years. During Taiwan crisis it will likely hide in yellow sea, or behind Hainan.

I agree it is kind of tough to justify a twin engine J10 without stealth though.

[Chengdu J-10]

Personal thought. USAF air fleet consist of F-16/15/18 with the bulk of it I think is upgraded F-16 soon to be retired in the future. Now for the PLAAF acquiring the J-10/11 still has a role in the fleet. If PLAAF waits for its 5th generation fighter to come out its fleet will be obsolete and small. The USAF is more technological superior and numerous than the PLAAF. Even if the PLAAF does release its 5th generation fighter they still need to match the numerical area so to fill this area will be the J-10/11. Cause the PLAAF is lacking in both technological superiority in the fighters and numerically.

Cause even if the PLAAF commissions its 5th generation fighter into its fleet it will be introduced slowly and in small numbers due to its cost. The J-10 should be the main fighter for the PLAAF with the J-11 complimenting it. Since the J-10 can match the F-16/18 and the J-11 can sort off match the F-15.

My thoughts of the twin engined J-10 is that it wont be stealth but semi-stealth with external weapon pylons that can match the F-35 first flight 2009. The J-XX the stealth fighter everyones been talking about will be purely stealth with internal weapons and which can outmatch the F-35 and challenge the F-22 but not outmatch it.

Carrier modified J-11 since it has the range and payload for strike mission and air superiority. And is simular to the Su-33 but with modifications. Sounds easy but will be time consuming. This will be for the Ski jump carrier. While the J-10 carrier version will be for the catapault carrier.

[Schumacher]

Just my 2 cents, US won't be sending F-16/15/18 first in any conflict, that'll be the job of F-22. USN may not get F-35 for a while, but F-22s from Japan & Guam is a real possibility. Being second best is as good as being last in wars.
Ignoring any 'anti-stealth' radar that PLA might have for now & taking a very simplistic view, I think current J-10/J-11B, not any future versions, will need at least 5-1 numerical advantage over F-22 in any engagement. Otherwise it's a real expensive waste of lives.
More importantly, I'm looking at the time gap between J-10/J-11B now & what I think is the timeframe of J-xx which I think is much shorter than F-15/16 to F-22. Unless J-xx is delayed, this gives an opportunity to save the fund from less J-10/J-11 for more J-xx in the future. In a word, generation leaping.
BTW, not only is this what I 'wish' or 'want', such strategy may indeed be what PLAF have in mind given that they're still getting J-8. I mean what do you prefer ? J-8 vs F-22 8 to 1 or J-10 vs F-22 4 to 1 ? Just trying to put the pieces together.

[goldenpanda]

I think despite the hype the J10 is a good match WVR against the F22. That leaves the F22 to night missions and hit and run tactics. But how much fuel will it have for high energy tactics, if it will be based 2000km away? What will be the vulnerability of AWACS and tankers which it relies on? F22 can take pot shots from the periphery of the air battle, but it cannot gain air superiority over Taiwan strait this way.

The F22 may very well own the night. PLAAF will try to minimize damage through concealment and mobility. F22 still has to make some sweat if it wants to penetrate deep inland to be surrounded by Chinese radar.

[rommel]

Originally Posted by goldenpanda

I think despite the hype the J10 is a good match WVR against the F22. That leaves the F22 to night missions and hit and run tactics. But how much fuel will it have for high energy tactics, if it will be based 2000km away? What will be the vulnerability of AWACS and tankers which it relies on? F22 can take pot shots from the periphery of the air battle, but it cannot gain air superiority over Taiwan strait this way.

The F22 may very well own the night. PLAAF will try to minimize damage through concealment and mobility. F22 still has to make some sweat if it wants to penetrate deep inland to be surrounded by Chinese radar.

Are you really sure of what you are saying ? I'm very doubtvious of this. Air Warfare is not easy as just spot by radar, and get it down. F-22 represent the state-of-art of the US technology for the US Air Force. If the J-10 was so advanced, it will have been at least classified as a 4th generation fighter. But it's still a 3rd generation fighter. Can you explain me base on what you are saying that the the J-10 can outperform a F-22 ??

[szbd]

What panda is saying is, F22 won't have much combat time over taiwan, hence its influence is small. But, it's not based 2000km away. Okinawa is only 600km to Taiwan, about the same distance to Zhejiang, China or Kyushu, japan.

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by goldenpanda

Sounds perfect for going on carrier. It should have folding wings, more range, and retain the low approach speed of J10. I think we should computerize carrier landing so we need the FBW system, which su33 doesn't seem to have.

How do you exspect a twin engined J-10, that uses the same engines as it's single engined twin, to have more range? Well, unless it's bigger to store more fuel, what would then bring it into J-11 domain. Since a second engine will also add weight as well as other naval mods, I would rather think approach speed to increase somewhat.

But USN won't be going stealthy for another 15-20 years.

That's relative, with latest SH versions getting "packman" stealth features, the USN already starts movement in that direction, a bit.
I agree though that PLAN should get jets abort ships before getting stealthy ones on ships.

I think despite the hype the J10 is a good match WVR against the F22. That leaves the F22 to night missions and hit and run tactics.

With it's AIM-9X, latest avonics, TVC engines and very high TWR ratio the F-22 will be very challanging in WVR either. But of course a skilled J-10 pilot will get his chances there.
In contrast to earlier/other US stealth aircraft like the F-117/B-2, the F-22 is the first stealth fighter meant for ops at all day/night times. One hint to that is the aircrafts paint. While Nighthawk and Spirit are painted in dark colours (though real black isn't optimal at night either) the Raptor has a greyish tone that also helps hiding it in daylight.
I agree that it probably would have to be refueld twice, but given it's outstanding supercruise capabilities, I think it could perform high energy maneuvers in the combat zone. Btw, it can utilize drop tanks.

What will be the vulnerability of AWACS and tankers which it relies on? F22 can take pot shots from the periphery of the air battle, but it cannot gain air superiority over Taiwan strait this way.

These high profile targets would of course need strong escorts. But the Raptor does not rely all that much on AWACS, it's rather the other way round. With it's powerfull AESA radar, it can act as a mini AWACS itself. Offering guidance to other aircraft after it's missiles are expanded. And because of it's stealth, it can be much closer to the fight than traditional AWACS.

Originally Posted by Schumacher

So PLAF shouldn't buy too many J-10 or J-11. Use them for exports instead & speed up development of the next generation J-xx or whatever. I suspect this thinking is not too far from the truth in PLAF given that they're still producing J-8 now, much to the amazement of some PLAF fans.

I don't really see the rationale here. Though PLAAF still buys J-8, I somehow don't think they should try to keep their big and aging fleet operational with these aircraft. And I think the gap to a worthwhile J-xx is still too great to have J-10 /-11 as merely transitional aircraft.
And, as Chengdu J-10 also said, I don't think a J-xx could make up the bulk of a future PLAAF fleet. The twin engined J-10 may have some stealth features, making it a 3.5 gen fighter in PLAAF terms; or 4.5 gen in western terms.

Just my 2 cents, US won't be sending F-16/15/18 first in any conflict, that'll be the job of F-22.

Given the yet low number of Raptors, I'd exspect other aircraft to be there as well from the first moments. Though Raptors might be the spearheads of such attacks.

Originally Posted by rommel

If the J-10 was so advanced, it will have been at least classified as a 4th generation fighter. But it's still a 3rd generation fighter. Can you explain me base on what you are saying that the the J-10 can outperform a F-22 ??

I think it's a 3rd gen fighter in chinese terms, though in western ones it is a 4th gen figher.

Originally Posted by Chengdu J-10

Carrier modified J-11 since it has the range and payload for strike mission and air superiority. [...] This will be for the Ski jump carrier.

Since the Su-33 is limited to only defensive A-A missions from a Kuznetsov carrier, how do you sea a J-11 being able to conduct strike missions from a sky-jump carrier??
Or did I get your connections wrong here?


Unless the twind-engined J-10's WS-10s aren't significantly reduced in size, or the aircraft enlarged, I don't see place for a weapons bay. As well as increased internal fuel storage, since drop tanks should be avoided on a stealth(y) aircraft. And a "normal" J-10 with a second engine doesn't provide that much more PLAAF doesn't have/get. Given that they are satisfied with the J-11B. So I currently would guess that it's mainly for testing ...
So maybe it's mainly for test porpuses.

[Schumacher]

Originally Posted by Scratch

.............
I don't really see the rationale here. Though PLAAF still buys J-8, I somehow don't think they should try to keep their big and aging fleet operational with these aircraft. And I think the gap to a worthwhile J-xx is still too great to have J-10 /-11 as merely transitional aircraft.
And, as Chengdu J-10 also said, I don't think a J-xx could make up the bulk of a future PLAAF fleet. The twin engined J-10 may have some stealth features, making it a 3.5 gen fighter in PLAAF terms; or 4.5 gen in western terms.

Given the yet low number of Raptors, I'd exspect other aircraft to be there as well from the first moments. Though Raptors might be the spearheads of such attacks.................

It all depends on when J-xx can fly. I think it'll be a real disappointment if it still doesn't fly by 2015. Note J-10/-11 only started flying these few years.
Compared to F-15 which flew in early 70s & F-22 only first flew in 97. I just question the rationale of investing too much into expensive J-10/11 given such short time gap.
They are still needed, but the number of purchases should best only be based on them playing supporting roles to future J-xx rather than one making them the main force against F-22 because without J-xx, the outcome will be very much the same whether a J-8 or a J-10 is sent. The best hope is to to beat F-22 thru number.
For the purpose of beating F-22, do you want to buy 8 upgraded J-8 or use the same fund to get 4 or less J-10/11 ?
But of course, if future upgraded J-10 can approach the EF-2000 levels, J-xx will be less urgent & the picture will be different.

Instead of buying too many current level J-10/11, improving the capabilities of BM attacks against F-22 bases in Japan & Guam may be money better spent while waitting for J-xx.

Whether you or I think PLAF should continue to upgrade & buy J-8 or not, the fact is they are. Coupled with the fact of the wide official publicity given to J-10, which many think is a sign that they'll try for export market. I get the impression PLAF don't see J-10 as among the most 'important' because China usually put such projects under wraps & certainly no export.