Let's talk about the J-8II

In terms of certification, what aircraft is certified as what? I know planes are theoretically capable of certain weapons layout but certification is another matter. For example, the J-7G can theoretically carry BVR missiles, but it doesn't. Is the J-8B certified to carry the PL-11? Does the J-8E carry the PL-8? Is the J-8F the only variant of the J-8II that caries the PL-12 or can the J-8H also capable of using and is certified for the PL-12?

J-8B before mod -> PL-5 and PL-8
J-8B after mod -> that plus PL-11

J-8I -> PL-2 and PL-5
J-8E (J-8I after mod) -> plus PL-8

J-8D same as J-8B after mod.
J-8H same as J-8D after mod. No change in armament however.
J-8H after mod -> plus PL-12 same as J-8F

Lets put it in another way.

J-8D before mod = J-8B after mod
J-8H before mod = J-8D after mod
J-8F (current) = J-8H after mod

Originally Posted by crobato

J-8B before mod -> PL-5 and PL-8
J-8B after mod -> that plus PL-11

J-8I -> PL-2 and PL-5
J-8E (J-8I after mod) -> plus PL-8

J-8D same as J-8B after mod.
J-8H same as J-8D after mod. No change in armament however.
J-8H after mod -> plus PL-12 same as J-8F

Lets put it in another way.

J-8D before mod = J-8B after mod
J-8H before mod = J-8D after mod
J-8F (current) = J-8H after mod

So the J-8D and H are more or less the same but with different avionic, radar and engine (nothing in terms of weapons) and the H has been upgraded to carry the PL-12?

So the J-8D and H are more or less the same but with different avionic, radar and engine (nothing in terms of weapons) and the H has been upgraded to carry the PL-12?

I think the J-8H can easily be upgraded to carry the PL-12. I believe if the PL-12 is already on development when the Type 1471 radar is ushered, then provisions for a later update would have been included into the radar.

Many J-8D are converted directly with the radar using the PL-12 if the conversion happens after 2004. In other words, any J-8D being upgraded after 2004 would be PL-12 capable. J-8D upgraded to J-8H before that or any J-8H made brand new before 2004, will need a relatively minor update (electronic and software modification) to enable PL-12.

Originally Posted by crobato

I think the J-8H can easily be upgraded to carry the PL-12. I believe if the PL-12 is already on development when the Type 1471 radar is ushered, then provisions for a later update would have been included into the radar.

Many J-8D are converted directly with the radar using the PL-12 if the conversion happens after 2004. In other words, any J-8D being upgraded after 2004 would be PL-12 capable. J-8D upgraded to J-8H before that or any J-8H made brand new before 2004, will need a relatively minor update (electronic and software modification) to enable PL-12.

Interesting, it all sounds so fluid, so more or less all J-8D/H/Fs other than radar and engines and some minor fence size difference are the same more or less? This is all very interesting, is there any article on this, I'd like to read more!

I picked this up by gathering pieces here and there, and look at the most logical way of doing things and by studying parallels with other aircraft around the world.

Yes it all sounds so fluid and seamless. Gradual with little risk. That's consistent to the way the PLA does things. Very evolutionary and conservative. Constantly fixing things.

This does not mean they tried something more radical like experimented on a J-8II ATX with movable front canards back in the mid 90s. But the project was eventually canned.

Originally Posted by crobato

I picked this up by gathering pieces here and there, and look at the most logical way of doing things and by studying parallels with other aircraft around the world.

Yes it all sounds so fluid and seamless. Gradual with little risk. That's consistent to the way the PLA does things. Very evolutionary and conservative. Constantly fixing things.

This does not mean they tried something more radical like experimented on a J-8II ATX with movable front canards back in the mid 90s. But the project was eventually canned.

Hmm, would you say the J-8II was from the outset designed to be something akin to, say the MiG-31? (althought not as heavy!) As still an interceptor but also a more 'well-rounded' multi-role fourth generation interceptor that just met with a lot of setback with radar and missile technology? From what I've read that seems to be the case, especially based on the listed PLAAF requirements but then again until recently, the PLAAF have been known to make wildly ridiculous demands from Chengdu and Shenyang.

Also from what it seems, the earlier block J-8Bs have been upgraded to J-8D standards but it seems that these J-8Bs will not be upgraded to J-8H standards? Any proof to this?

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

Hmm, would you say the J-8II was from the outset designed to be something akin to, say the MiG-31? (althought not as heavy!) As still an interceptor but also a more 'well-rounded' multi-role fourth generation interceptor that just met with a lot of setback with radar and missile technology? From what I've read that seems to be the case, especially based on the listed PLAAF requirements but then again until recently, the PLAAF have been known to make wildly ridiculous demands from Chengdu and Shenyang.

I would say it was designed more like the F-106 Delta Dart in mind, a kind of national homeland defense interceptor against strategic bombers. There is a mission alignment with the MiG-31 there but the MiG-25/31 is far more powerful and flies even faster with much bigger radars and missile load.

Also from what it seems, the earlier block J-8Bs have been upgraded to J-8D standards but it seems that these J-8Bs will not be upgraded to J-8H standards? Any proof to this?

What you say is correct. No proof is needed because it is the statement to the contrary (that the planes are upgraded) that has the requisite of proof. None of the "fixed" J-8Bs have been seen upgraded to J-8H standards.

Originally Posted by crobato

I would say it was designed more like the F-106 Delta Dart in mind, a kind of national homeland defense interceptor against strategic bombers. There is a mission alignment with the MiG-31 there but the MiG-25/31 is far more powerful and flies even faster with much bigger radars and missile load.

Well I referring to the J-8II, from the development history I have read, while, like the original J-8, the J-8II was supposed to be primarily an interceptor, there seems to have been a great deal of emphasis on increasing performance and solving technological problems like BVR and MRAAM technology.

What you say is correct. No proof is needed because it is the statement to the contrary (that the planes are upgraded) that has the requisite of proof. None of the "fixed" J-8Bs have been seen upgraded to J-8H standards.

Sounds interesting, any source stating definitivly that the gap between the J-8B to J-8D/H/F is insurmountable? I guess its because of the previously mentioned airframe?

Its not a technology issue. Its just that by now the J-8B airframes are getting old. If you upgrade the J-8Bs, you're putting money on an airframe with already limited flight hour life. Its a waste of money. You should just retire the old airframe and build new fighters.

Originally Posted by crobato

Its not a technology issue. Its just that by now the J-8B airframes are getting old. If you upgrade the J-8Bs, you're putting money on an airframe with already limited flight hour life. Its a waste of money. You should just retire the old airframe and build new fighters.

Well the J-8D's redesigned, heavier airframe I assume would be a factor in having a longer flight hour life compared to the not much older J-8Bs.

Another question (sorry! ) The Type 208 of the J-8B and J-8D you said earlier they were theoretically capable of accepting the PL-11 missile, but I'm reading some really mixed reports about its range. Some are saying 35km, some are saying 40km and some are saying 70kms, is this just different 'generations' of the same radar or something ele?

The size of the radar can mean it can reach 70km. The one on the J-8D is the "fixed" version of the Type 208, while the J-8B had the original flawed version. From there it becomes a matter of going back to the J-8B and fix its radar, plus the conversion also added an IFR tube inside the airplane so you can put a probe on it. A few other things from the J-8D like the navigation and RWRs are added to the J-8B too, to bring them to the same operating standard.

Originally Posted by crobato

The size of the radar can mean it can reach 70km. The one on the J-8D is the "fixed" version of the Type 208, while the J-8B had the original flawed version. From there it becomes a matter of going back to the J-8B and fix its radar, plus the conversion also added an IFR tube inside the airplane so you can put a probe on it. A few other things from the J-8D like the navigation and RWRs are added to the J-8B too, to bring them to the same operating standard.

What exactly would make the same radar fluctuate so differently in range? Also I think I read that early J-8Bs had a different radar than later J-8Bs (Type 208A and Type 208B I believe). Both obviously have now been brought to J-8D standards.

The components inside the radar have a deep bearing on the range and quality, not the physical appearance of the radar's antenna.

From what I remember,

J-8I -> Type 204 aka SR-4
J-8B -> Type 208, later 208A, 208B

J-8I changed the radar to JL-7AG to make the J-8E, not sure what the exact radar designation is, but its based on the radar used on the J-7E.

J-7E -> JL-7A which is based from
J-7C -> JL-7
J-7D -> JL-7G?