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Reply With QuoteOk thanks, that make sense, as long as the competition does not get out of hand to the point where they forget what is the original purpose. Sometimes competition is the best incentive for technological progress.
This is a discussion on Let's talk about the J-8II within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by stardave So is there any kind of technical cooperation between the two? They might not share design, ...
Senior Member
I am not 100% sure, but I strongly doubt it with what I know about how research institutes work in China.Originally Posted by stardave
They are all state funded, but they compete directly with each other for those state grants as well as orders from the air force, navy and foreign customers.
In addition, the higher ups in Beijing recognize the value of competition, so they will not normally force rival companies to pool resources. Without pressure from up top, there is just no reason for them to co-operate in that way. If both companies had failed to come up with a decent 5th gen proposal, then Beijing might have stepped in and made them work together to make sure the PLAAF got something decent, but since both managed to come up with their own designs, I think Beijing would see that as evidence that the current competitive set up is working just fine and see no reason to change it.
Having said that, it is worth remembering that neither CAC or SAC does everything in-house themselves. A lot of the subsystems are contracted out to other specialist companies, like the engines and radar for example.
Now, as far as I understand it, both companies are responsible for selecting their own subcontractors when they are putting together a fighter for the air force, and obviously for security, they try to pick different sub-contractors. But if there is one subcontractor that is obviously head and shoulders above everyone else, then both companies will use them. The engines is a good example despite the possible SAC backroom shenanigans as we are seeing J10Bs powered by WS10As now.
At the end of the day, everyone follows the money and authority. If CAC got the PLAAF contract and SAC had the better radar subcontractors during the bidding process, you can bet the radar guys would want to jump ship to get the big orders, and if their wares are really better than CAC's radar guys' offerings, CAC would take them up.
At the end of the say, SAC and CAC just develop the airframes, whoever wins that has their pick of the best subcontractors so there isn't really an issue with one company blocking access to critical technology or systems (unless they happened to be air frame related, but in which case, such a technological lead would help them to win the contract in the first place) so the PLAAF will always get the best available.
Member
Ok thanks, that make sense, as long as the competition does not get out of hand to the point where they forget what is the original purpose. Sometimes competition is the best incentive for technological progress.
Senior Member
Originally, J-20 was also going to be a project of SAC. The 386 leader wanted the aircraft to be readied (first flight?) before 2015, but SAC said this couldn't be done until 2020 and even then the product would be inferior to F-22. Once again fed up with SAC's incompetence, PLAAF opened up the project for competition. Not only was CAC's proposal superior to SAC's, Dr. Song also personally guaranteed that J-20 would fly before 2012. History repeated itself so now CAC got the J-20.
I wouldn't call that rivalry but rather the typical cheap tactics that SAC employs.
The thing is that after SAC lost the competition, they claimed CAC lied saying that it would be impossible for J-20 to be readied before 2020. So, SAC sent a bunch of people to General Armaments Department to complain and to try to pressure the air force into nullify the result of the competition. SAC also used its influence in AVIC and forced CAC into coughing up some structural design work for SAC. I think around the same time, AVIC also tried to replace Dr. Song with a person from SAC. Suffice to say, the air force was not pleased, and created a special department to oversee the J-20 project directly afterward.
Member
Thanks for the info, very informative. So about this competition, is SAC's candidate the recently exposed F-60/J-21? Or do they still have something in the heavy class of F-22/J-20 that is still not yet made it is first flight.
Senior Member
No. SAC's candidate was in the heavy weight class with a triplane configuration. It wasn't something that SAC could have realistically pull off anyway. As far as I know, F-60 has no relation whatsoever with that triplane design and is purely a private venture.
Member
Is that triplane still planning to fly? Or have SAC give up on that seeing the success of J-20?
Senior Member
That triplane is just a paper airplane. Like I have said already, it wasn't something that SAC could have pulled off.
As to whether SAC gave up, the answer is no in my opinion. They probably have some unrealistic expectation that the air force would purchase F-60, but it simply isn't going to happen.
Senior Member
My Goodness, Shenfei Still Trying To Reinvent The Wheel?
http://js.tudouui.com/bin/player2/ol...seidcount=null
Super Moderator
Can't open the video !!... can You just PLEASE tell, what's so special ?
Super Moderator
Can't open the video !!
New Member
[QUOTE=A.Man;199991]My Goodness, Shenfei Still Trying To Reinvent The Wheel?
That video is clearly some fanboy product; it's far too inaccurate and unprofessional to be a real official advertisement.
Junior Member
Against B-52s? It's like 1960s all over again!
It may be real too because those clips of launching YJ91 look like the screen captures leaked out a few months back. Oh and they forgot to pay license fee to the producer of Stealth.
Junior Member
Wow, that was incredibly embarrassing to watch
Super Moderator
Although I can't view the video myself... let me guess. Is this the video where the J-8D guns down several F-16s and bombs a U.S. carrier? Sadly I think it was actually shown at one of the defense expos...
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Senior Member
This one is slightly different from the one you saw. It shows a J-8 shooting down an F-16 with AAM and another J-8 sinking what looks like a battleship with an AShM.
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