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JL-15 and other trainers

This is a discussion on JL-15 and other trainers within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by tphuang pretty much, anything that appears in airshow that early on is basically trying to get export ...

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Old 07-02-2009   #226
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
pretty much, anything that appears in airshow that early on is basically trying to get export orders. If they don't get it, it's pretty much end of the project.
Hmm, thats a shame, it would make an interesting side-project. With the JL-9 having such a long time both in the lab and in the air now, not a great deal of time and energy would really be necessary to invest into LFC-16 which would more or less be the JL-9 with canards and a combat radar. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2008-2009 quotes the price of the JL-9 (sans radar) to be a mere 2.4 million dollars per aircraft, conceivably a miltarised JL-9 would only be $5-6 million, thats an amazing price for a fighter aircraft.
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Old 07-02-2009   #227
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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Hmm, thats a shame, it would make an interesting side-project. With the JL-9 having such a long time both in the lab and in the air now, not a great deal of time and energy would really be necessary to invest into LFC-16 which would more or less be the JL-9 with canards and a combat radar. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2008-2009 quotes the price of the JL-9 (sans radar) to be a mere 2.4 million dollars per aircraft, conceivably a miltarised JL-9 would only be $5-6 million, thats an amazing price for a fighter aircraft.
that's exactly why L-15 is getting nothing now. Even though it's on paper a superior aircraft in every way, PLAAF is more interested in getting an aircraft that is good enough and can fill the numbers rather than the best possible aircraft that is 3 times as expensive. US could take a cue from that. And it goes for the other high profile trainers like T-50 and Yak-130 too. Why spend that much money on a trainer when a two seater of a 4th generation plane is far better for training?
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Old 07-03-2009   #228
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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that's exactly why L-15 is getting nothing now. Even though it's on paper a superior aircraft in every way, PLAAF is more interested in getting an aircraft that is good enough and can fill the numbers rather than the best possible aircraft that is 3 times as expensive. US could take a cue from that. And it goes for the other high profile trainers like T-50 and Yak-130 too. Why spend that much money on a trainer when a two seater of a 4th generation plane is far better for training?
Well the T-50 is taking a similar route with the F/A-50 being developed right now but I think I agree, with the advancements in training simulator software extremely capable and expensive training aircraft that are only slightly less expensive than the aircraft they are training for are not as useful as they once were. Is flight training software advanced enough to solely train a pilot though? I'm not quiet convinced though, in the case of the relatively small PLANAF requirements for say, a carrierborne trainer, the L-15 probably most closely meet their requirements but for the PLAAF with such a massive fleet of aircraft, costs cutting mus be vitally important.

As for the LFC-16, my Chinese reading skills are pretty horrible, do you know if there was more to it than just some canards? Was it to have FBW instead of mechanical controls for example?
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Old 07-03-2009   #229
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Since JL-9 is also based on the basic J-7 airframe, mainly with modifications to the intake and forward fuselage, would it really have been necessary for the Chinese to pursue the LFC-16 and J-7FM simultaneously? Perhaps if they had chose to just fund one over the other from the get-go, then one of the two projects would've reached fruition. I guess in the end, they figured that either of the aircrafts would be competing for the same market as the FC-1, which already is a low-cost alternative to nations that cannot afford the F-16 or Mig-29. However, I still think that either of the aircraft would offer advantages in lower-cost as well as having Chinese made engines.

Side note- the F-5/T-38 would be an American example of an advanced trainer evolving into a combat fighter.

Last edited by FriedRiceNSpice; 07-03-2009 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 07-03-2009   #230
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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Since JL-9 is also based on the basic J-7 airframe, mainly with modifications to the intake and forward fuselage, would it really have been necessary for the Chinese to pursue the LFC-16 and J-7FM simultaneously? Perhaps if they had chose to just fund one over the other from the get-go, then one of the two projects would've reached fruition. I guess in the end, they figured that either of the aircrafts would be competing for the same market as the FC-1, which already is a low-cost alternative to nations that cannot afford the F-16 or Mig-29. However, I still think that either of the aircraft would offer advantages in lower-cost as well as having Chinese made engines.

Side note- the F-5/T-38 would be an American example of an advanced trainer evolving into a combat fighter.
The J-7MF project has been 'dead' for a while as far as everybody can tell(also it was a Chengdu project, LFC-16 is/was a Guizhou project IIRC). I don't really think though that the LFC-16 would really interfere with the FC-1 sales though. You could potentially buy 2 LFC-16s for 1 FC-1, also look at the countries considering the FC-1, Azerbaijan, Sudan etc. these are growing 3rd and 2nd world economies that can afford the FC-1, my guess is that the LFC-16 would be more marketed to very poor countries with little to no standing airforce such as Namibia who only a few years ago bought new F-7s. Of course though, from the looks of it, the LFC-16 is dead.
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Old 07-17-2009   #231
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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解放军使用的教-8型号1994年12月首飞,1997月12月技术鉴定完成,1998年6月首批交付8架。在具体工作中, 洪都飞机公司广泛采用了计算机辅助工艺管理技术,解决了下大梁、后机身初装、垂尾型架、返修等许多重大技术 问题。1998年12月,教-8改装国产发动机涡扇-11,首飞成功。教-8和涡扇-11的定型试飞员均为史同洲,在这两次定型试验中史同洲都经历了发动机停车而被迫迫降的险情。该发动机于2 000年10月完成了定型试验。

解放军使用的教-8改用国产涡扇-11发动机。1986年,测绘仿制涡扇-11的任务交给了南方航空动力公司。1992年8月涡扇-11开始投入制,95年点火,98年10月26日首次装上K-8首飞。2001年10月定型试飞结束并小批量交付。如前所述,该发动机经过一些事故后方定型。 涡扇-11源自乌克兰进步机械设计局(Motorsich)的АI-25ТL (АI-25ТLК) (据部分资料称,该发动机由AI-25发展而来),并非官方所宣称的那样是一种自力更生的东西。АI-25ТL (АI-25ТLК) 海平面最大推力1720千克,燃油消耗率最大状态0.575,直径为3358х985х958mm(ТLК 为2860х868х959,5),净重350 千克。与基型相比,改进型号提高了压气机压缩比等指标,从而提高了推力。该系列的发动机还可用 于捷克L-39等小型飞机。2002年3月,涡扇-11正式定型。

但是,涡扇-11的推力与仿制原型相比大幅度下降。这直接导致国内的教8和教11性能与出口的K-8相比大幅度的下降。南方航空动力公司在涡扇-11的基础上研制出了性能提高的涡扇-11A发动机,涡扇-11A的推力与涡扇-11相比有了很大的提高,同时延长了翻修间隔和总使用寿命,提高了可靠性。在设计中采用了发动机结构完整性 概念,并满足了军用标准和设计规范。


教-8在飞行教练上主要有11种典型机动训练,包括简单特技带飞、复杂特技带飞、失速螺旋、高级特技带飞、暗舱 仪表带飞、单机对机动目标攻击等等。练习包括大坡度盘旋和半滚转等动作。

2004年9月,西安北方光电公司中标“K-8飞机加装平显多功能显示系统”。该项目由中国航空技术进出口总公司与洪都航空工业集团有限公司组织招标。 K-8飞机上配装的平显多功能显示系统主要由平视显示器、上前方控制面板、显示控制任务机、多功能显示器(前舱 一台、后舱两台)、视频摄录系统以及数据加载卡组成。系统的后舱多功能显示器上设置有平视显示器实时的视频 摄录画面,后舱仪表板上设置有控制优先权开关,方便教官对学员的操作监督。K-8航电升级型飞机在导航方式上采用了余度设计。主导航方式为以GPS作为导航源的各种卫星导航方式,辅助导 航源分别有罗盘和塔康,确保了导航的可靠性。升级后的航电系统,人机操作界面更为直观、友好,减轻了飞行员 的负担,并且在设计理念上紧跟世界上先进的战斗机,可以提高训练质量,学员在K-8飞机上完成训练后可以更好地适应先进战斗机飞行。在K-8上加装平显多功能显示系统后,可大大提升飞机的总体性能,有利于延长该机型的生命周期。该系统是一套较为 复杂的机载综合航电火控及显示设备,能够令使用K-8的教学人员更好的完成针对三代战斗机的训练任务,也使得西安北方光电公司在整个航空电子及火控系统领域中 占有了一席之地。
I'm not sure if this accurate since I couldn't find an original link to this. Anyhow, it seems that JL-8 will appear in the 60th anniversary parade.

Probably the most interesting part here is on WS-11. We know that WS-11 is not as good as the original AI-25 engine, but it claims here that they've developed as WS-11A which has higher thrust and better service life and reliability than WS-11, so that it fulfills the military requirements. I don't know if this is true, but one of the big problems with JL-8 was the engine issue, but if WS-11A does much AI-25, then it's a significant upgrade.

It also talks about improved avionics on JL-8, but that's pretty routine stuff.
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Old 07-17-2009   #232
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
I'm not sure if this accurate since I couldn't find an original link to this. Anyhow, it seems that JL-8 will appear in the 60th anniversary parade.

Probably the most interesting part here is on WS-11. We know that WS-11 is not as good as the original AI-25 engine, but it claims here that they've developed as WS-11A which has higher thrust and better service life and reliability than WS-11, so that it fulfills the military requirements. I don't know if this is true, but one of the big problems with JL-8 was the engine issue, but if WS-11A does much AI-25, then it's a significant upgrade.

It also talks about improved avionics on JL-8, but that's pretty routine stuff.
About time this engine situation was worked out for the JL-8. I wonder what they would do to make the WS-11 (which is just a Ivchenko-Progress AI-25 as far as I know) 'better' though. Perhaps, they took a que from Ivchenko-Progress' AI-25TLSh variant.

Also news on updated JL-8 avionics is also interesting. Just what sort of avionics were updated?
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Old 07-18-2009   #233
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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About time this engine situation was worked out for the JL-8. I wonder what they would do to make the WS-11 (which is just a Ivchenko-Progress AI-25 as far as I know) 'better' though. Perhaps, they took a que from Ivchenko-Progress' AI-25TLSh variant.

Also news on updated JL-8 avionics is also interesting. Just what sort of avionics were updated?
The problem is that the original WS-11 was just not as good as AI-25. It's kind of a common theme with Chinese engines, the specs are okay, but because it's so new and immature, it always has reliability issues. And in the case of WS-11, it couldn't even achieve the thrust performance of AI-25.

As for avionics, it says that it added MFDs (1 in the front and 2 at back). It also improved the navigation system support like numerous GNSS + TACAN + LORAN.
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Old 07-18-2009   #234
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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The problem is that the original WS-11 was just not as good as AI-25. It's kind of a common theme with Chinese engines, the specs are okay, but because it's so new and immature, it always has reliability issues. And in the case of WS-11, it couldn't even achieve the thrust performance of AI-25.

As for avionics, it says that it added MFDs (1 in the front and 2 at back). It also improved the navigation system support like numerous GNSS + TACAN + LORAN.
So does anybody know more about this WS-11A? Is it merely a properly copied AI-25TLK or does it seem that there are any indications of any improvements?
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Old 07-18-2009   #235
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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So does anybody know more about this WS-11A? Is it merely a properly copied AI-25TLK or does it seem that there are any indications of any improvements?
I don't know, it's weird, they never really talked about it before. It just suddenly popped up here, so I'm not sure how legitimate the news is.
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Old 07-18-2009   #236
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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斯里兰卡新上任的国防总参谋长萨拉特·丰塞卡2009-07-15日表示,由于反政府武装猛虎组织被消灭,斯里兰卡日前取消了一项与中国价值2亿美元的军火订单 。
《东方早报》报道,丰塞卡是政府军围剿猛虎组织的军事总指挥之一。他告诉当地媒体,“我们本来从中国订购了 大约2亿美元的重型武器,但现在这些武器不需要了。”他说,这批军火在内战正酣时可供使用3-4个月。丰塞卡之前是斯里兰卡的陆军司令.


斯里兰卡取消了一项与中国价值2亿美元的军火订单,但这笔钱的一部分转而订购了8架装备WS-11发动机的K-8教练/攻击机(装备WS-11发动机的K-8比较便宜)
斯里兰卡将购买5架K-8教练/攻击机,用于补充被泰米尔猛虎组织击毁的三架教-8教练机。
这批配置较为先进,它不仅配置了导航攻击系统,实现了航电系统综合显示和控制,配装了平显多功能显示系统, 而且加装了空管应答机。


K-8没有一种固定武器,机腹部位可加挂23毫米机炮吊舱或侦察吊舱,有4个机翼挂架用于最大携带1000 公斤负载,挂点能携带副油箱非制导火箭,250 公斤炸弹,近程空对空导弹(如巴基斯坦空军)。在对地攻击时,双座机两名飞行员相互配合具有一定的优势;对 地侦察时,该机具有长航时的优势;空战时,可以用于打击空中低速目标(如武装直升机)、低机动性目标(如运 输机)。
K-8兼有的攻击特性,也深受小规模空军的欢迎。对于小国来说,其空军规模再扩大十倍也无法和空军强国对抗 ,其作战目标往往是低烈度冲突和国内反叛乱、反游击、反有组织犯罪的作战;同时经济势力也不足以使其扩大空 军规模,因此“花一笔钱买两样东西”就是一个很好选择。
a while ago, Sri Lanka canceled a $200 million contract for Chinese firearms after the end of its conflict with the Tamils. This claims that it will use some of that money to buy 8 K-8s, three of which will replace existing K-8s that were lost in the conflict.
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Old 07-18-2009   #237
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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a while ago, Sri Lanka canceled a $200 million contract for Chinese firearms after the end of its conflict with the Tamils. This claims that it will use some of that money to buy 8 K-8s, three of which will replace existing K-8s that were lost in the conflict.
I can see a lot more contracts like this now that Sri Lanka has been 'pacified' and can now focus its defence funds on more 'long term' investments like air force and navy.
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Old 07-18-2009   #238
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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a while ago, Sri Lanka canceled a $200 million contract for Chinese firearms after the end of its conflict with the Tamils. This claims that it will use some of that money to buy 8 K-8s, three of which will replace existing K-8s that were lost in the conflict.
Pakistan newspaper said it was both Chinese and Pakistani firearms.
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Old 08-17-2009   #239
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

L-15 is to be commended for its strong support for training PLAAF pilots,but it just cannot bring itself to supersonic beause its engine is not engine afterburner system.
here are link
ÕæÊµµÄ»ÑÑÔÆª L-15 ¡°ÁÔÓ¥¡±»¹ÄÜË㳬ÒôËÙ½ÌÁ·»úô ¨C ÌúÑªÍø
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Old 08-22-2009   #240
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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

首见山鹰的正式编号--歼教九!而非教练九或者高教九。。。
中航工业试飞院上半年在试飞风险科目多、试飞技术新、组织体系复杂、保障难度大、安全压力大的形势下,科研 工作主动座位、创新超越、多项工作稳步推进,各项重点科研试飞任务纷纷按节电、高质量的完成。歼教九飞机等 重点型号基本完成了设计定型试飞科目;完成2008级空军试飞员专业化培训开班及教学飞行;歼十飞机三名试 飞员完成尾旋训练;院庆飞行训练取得圆满成功;
ARJ21飞机101架机正是转场中航工业试飞院开始全面进入适航审定验证试飞阶段,ARJ21-700飞机102架圆满实施了首飞任务。

JL-9 is now JJ-9. That's its official PLA name It says that in the first half of this year, JJ-9 completed its design certification flight test programs. Also completed class of 2008 PLAAF pilot training
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