This is a discussion on JH-7/JH-7A Thread within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by tphuang actually, JH-7 was originally developed as a multi-role fighter like the tornado, but then it stunk ...
Junior Member
With the avionics JH-7 is quoted to have, it will certainly outclass MKK in all-weather operations. I'm not sure how the attack avionics compare however.Originally Posted by tphuang
Banned
mkk avionics are fairly mediocre, like all the rest of russias avionics. there are three mfds, but that still only gives it 80s level ability and layout. from the few rare jh-7 pics weve seen, the plane has a good color ground tracking radar lcd, and an targeting screen.
Super Moderator
Most likely this is the original JH-7 itself using the second hand Spey engines. No AL-31s ever ever used on the JH-7 whose fuselage is too slim for such engines. The JH-7A would use a copy (licensed or reverse engineered) of the Spey that is uptuned for more trust called the WS-9, has less drag from the removal of the wing fences, and would have composite and other changes to reduce weight.
Super Moderator
Actually the MKK has two MFDs in the cockpit, and two large MFDs in the officer's seat. The JH-7A has two MFDs in the pilot, and four MFDs in the officer's seat.
The MKK has a better rear seating position because the second guy's viewpoint is placed above the pilot's head. The JH-7A on the other hand, puts the second officer into some tunnel vision with little visibility.
Super Moderator
The Russians sort of delivered the MKK's avionics half baked. When the MKK was delivered they got all the TV guidance functions worked out, so the MKK came with all sorts of TV guided weapons, Kh-59ME, Kh-29TE, various Kab-500kr and Kab-1500kr bombs. However, the laser guidance functions were not fully worked out since the MKK lacked a proper targeting pod. The IRST ball in front of the cockpit is capable of laser targeting yes, but the plane would have to be in a dive or flying upside down to use it. The Russians were supposed to provide a laser targeting pod called SAPSAN, and the project sort of bogged. Furthermore, the old style twist cassegrain radar, even with buffed up modern electronics, didn't have a proper SAR function, and this the Russians proposed in ammending with the M400 recon pod.
In the last Sino-Russian exercises though, the MKKs have now demonstrated laser bomb guided attacks using Kab-500Ls, and last year, has been involved with SAR based recons of Taiwan coast using a pod.
The MKK also got the anti-radiation function completed, so it could use Kh-31P ARMs for radar suppression.
Moreover, the MKK lacked a proper air to sea attack, since that mode was not fully integrated into the radar. Sukhoi corrected this with an electronic upgrade that was incorporated into the so called MK2 plane, which is just the MKK with the air to sea functions. With this, the MK2 can use the Kh-31A, Kh-35E and Kh-59MK antiship missiles.
The JH-7 in contrast came with the air to sea functions but lacked everything else. Then the new JL-10A radar replaced the Type 232H radar, which provided other functionality such as anti-radiation attack using the YJ-91 (a Kh-31P clone with allegedly Israeli inspired electronics). The Chinese also managed to come up with their own Litening equivalent called the Blue Sky pod which enabled the plane to use laser guided munitions. While the JL-10A radar is smaller and lacks the power of the MKK's radar, its slotted array design gives it a wider aperture, better for air to ground and air to sea scanning. The radar is allegedly said to have SAR functions built in, something that the MKK radar didn't.
Then the JH-7A came with the radar equipping into the improved airframe and engines. The year the JH-7A came into service, China also stopped its order of MKKs the same year, something that struck the Russians with great surprise, as they were used to expecting the orders like a yearly ritual. This iwas a surprising and ironical turnaround, considering when China first acquired the MKKs, experts were sounding the death knell of the JH-7.
Super Moderator
Huh..... Couldn't the Russians have designed the MKK to put the IRST on the bottom of the nose instead, like on the Q-5D, but forward........... Could've probably did that on the JH-7A too.......
But can the JH-7A use TV-guided munitons?
And isn't the two ARMs basically the same?
Wait, doesn't the JH-7A have laser guidance equipment under the fuselage, as said in Huitong's site?
PS- Have a link to the specs of the Russian ASMs?
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Super Moderator
The Russians designed the IRST on the Su-27 originally in support of air to air operations. If you want something intended for ground operations, look at the Su-34 instead.
I think the JH-7A can use TV guided munitions but I have not seen much evidence of it. The technology potential is there since the H-6H uses TV guided and directed YJ-63 missiles. If there is TV guided YJ-83s, perhaps the JH-7A can use them along with a version of the H-6 (H-6M?)
The YJ-91 and the KH-31P have the same body, since the former is a copy of the latter. But the former uses electronics and a seeker design inspired from mroe Western sources like the Israeli Harpy. Now you can understand the major objection the US DoD had about Israel upgrading the PRC's Harpies.
The JH-7A uses a laser targeting pod called Blue Sky to handle laser guided weapons. Perhaps this pod might be used on the J-10 as well.
Banned
i belive the j-10s are already fitted with blue skys. it still doesnt give them mush a2g ability though.
hey, anyone have inofrmation of how the jh-7 performs in air combat? its classified as a fighter bomber, and im eager to know whether it can be as vesatile as the mkk
Super Moderator
I believe it's AAMs are for pure air defense. It is definitely not the platform that mkk is. It will need plenty of J-10s to protect it.
Banned
its RCS could be reduced, so it more difficult to detect!
Add some cloaking, that would help too!
Reduce its IR.
And of course you can make it invisible to the human eye! So it will be very hard for fighters to spot you!
Last edited by Superior China; 01-10-2006 at 06:21 PM.
Banned
yeah sure, why not? shal we install a proton cannon and energy sheilds while were at it?
seriously, how on earth do you make a plane invisible to the eye? the russians tried in the 30s, making a propellor plane almost entirely of a kind of french plastic. with only the engine standing out, it would be very difficult to see. the plastic,however, did fade to color after a while. but nowadays...thats impossible.
Senior Member
Fractal Camo?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Desert_lg.jpg
Then there's also optical camo:
http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/sns-...m-main-utility
It's still quite primitive, but in the future it might be a necessity to defeat optical guided missiles that recongize targets by its shape, size, and apperance.
Last edited by adeptitus; 01-10-2006 at 07:07 PM.
Banned
"defeat optical guided missiles that recongize targets by its shape, size, and apperance."
Its shape, size and apperance is called Radar signature. Every plane sends back a different "signature" indicating its shape, size, speed, barring etc.
Radar today locks-on onto this, the signature. That is the way it worked since say one. You have somehting mixed up!
And MigLeader it is possible, there are these camo-suits which are transparrent, or invisible. Bbio-hazzard suits will do the same!
Of course you too can install this on a plane!
But I have stated more recent which can be achieved today, not a few years in the future!
At least We have an equal start with this technology!
Super Moderator
He is talking about LiDAR, not RaDAR........
There are SAMs that incorprate LiDAR you know.....
I want Asia on my front porch and America as my backyard.
Disclaimer: By America, I meant the Continent. And yes, I know Asian homes have neither a backyard nor a porch in the American sense.
Senior Member
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...n/Python5.html
Electro-optical seeker:
Conventional air-to-air missiles see targets as dots - a fact which makes it hard for the missile to tell between true or false targets .The Python 5's head seeker literally sees a clear image of the target and background, giving it an incredible advantage over other missiles by authenticating the target, thus reducing the chance of being mislead by counter measures. Using this technology allows the luxury of locking on a target after the launch. The transition to this unique technology required a development by RAFAEL, which exists in only several countries in the world. Using an electro-optical head seeker also makes it easier to locate and lock on low-heat signature aircrafts such as UAVs, helicopters or even cruise missiles. These aircrafts can fly very close to the ground and can be very hard to detect using regular head seekers. The Python 5 with the electro-optical head can easily accomplish that, by creating a sharp target image and locking on it. In order to achieve perfect performance and tracking ability, the engineers at RAFAEL tested the Python 5 against all advanced counter measures. Usually this is a tough challenge, as the missile would have to handle counter measures in the future. But that was not an impossible challenge to RAFAEL, which also develops the future counter measures. The unique head-seeker also extends the lethality of the missile by aiming it to the target's most vulnerable areas. Most heat seeking missiles tend to home on the hottest spot of the aircraft which is normally the rear exhaust system. In modern combat history, some aircrafts that were hit by a missile in that area, managed to survive the flight until the landing. The Python 5, which acquires a sharp image of the target can home on the most critical areas of the aircraft, such as the cockpit or the central area, and significantly improve the chances for a shot down.
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