JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[duskylim]

Dear Sirs:

The diplomatic and strategic relationship between Pakistan and China, is a very deep one, and is the result of the need to deal with common internal and threats.

Though at first glance it would seem that the two nations have little in common, the relationship in fact grew out of mutual interests - and is a triumph of realpolitik.

Before 1971, there was little interaction between the two nations, other than a very cordial and amicable settlement of the common border between them, (along the Karakoram mountains near the Siachin glacier) in contrast to the still unsettled Sino-Indian boundary.

As a member of America's Central Asian alliance (CENTO), Pakistan had received some advanced Western weapons and training, and China, as one of the targets of that alliance was understandably wary of them.

Pakistan born of partition from British India, saw itself as a Muslim nation, and as such was equally wary of a Communist China.

All this changed with the 3rd Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. Here Pakistan's alliance with the US was tested and found wanting.

The US refused to supply the necessary equipment and ammunition they needed to continue the war, and with defeat Pakistan itself became partitioned into 2 parts, Pakistan (formerly West Pakistan) and Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan).

This traumatic experience taught the Pakistani's the true value of their US alliance. Never again would they be able to trust the West.

At the time China was itself being subjected to embargo's and persecution by the West and the 2 countries (like Weimar Germany and Soviet Russia in the post Versailles era) found it mutually beneficial to cooperate.

The JF-17 fighter is just the most recent example of that cooperation. True as a short-range, limited-performance, interceptor/striker, it does not entirely meet China's needs, (these are better met by the J-10), but as an example to other nations of China's commitment to it's allies, (as well as a convenient source of potential revenue), it more than meets its requirements.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[jawad]

IDEAS 2008 helps secure orders worth $40 million
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.php?latest_id=9513

KARACHI ( 2008-11-28 20:01:52 ) :The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

The event has also helped country reach broad understanding with 11 serious buyers for the sale of arms and ammunition, said Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj Gen Mohammad Farooq in a press briefing here on Friday.

He alongwith Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Saleem Haider and Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen Shahid Siddiq Tirmzey (retd) was responding to queries raised by journalists at Karachi Expo Centre.

He said that overwhelming response was received from foreign exhibitors and delegates at the 5th IDEAS. This event has not only enhanced the image in the outside world but also nullified the security concerns about Pakistan.

He also thanked Karachiites for showing hospitality to the exhibitors and visitors of IDEAS 2008.

Secretary Defence Production said that 275 JF-17 thunder jet will be handed over to Pakistan Air Force after the completion of testing phase.

"We have received so many queries for the purchase of these jets and more than 800 JF-17 will be exported to eight countries after meeting domestic requirements," he said mentioning that once negotiations were materialized, the export of JF-17 could go beyond 800 units, he added.

These aircrafts are produced under a technical collaboration with China and are also marketed under a joint venture with China, he said.

Gen Trimzey (retd) said that the growth of defence production industry in Pakistan has ended the monopoly of western countries.

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PAF must be thinking highly of JF-17 Thunder their order size is increasing day by day
150 ----> 200---->250---->275

[Semi-Lobster]

IDEAS 2008 helps secure orders worth $40 million
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.php?latest_id=9513

KARACHI ( 2008-11-28 20:01:52 ) :The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

The event has also helped country reach broad understanding with 11 serious buyers for the sale of arms and ammunition, said Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj Gen Mohammad Farooq in a press briefing here on Friday.

He alongwith Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Saleem Haider and Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen Shahid Siddiq Tirmzey (retd) was responding to queries raised by journalists at Karachi Expo Centre.

He said that overwhelming response was received from foreign exhibitors and delegates at the 5th IDEAS. This event has not only enhanced the image in the outside world but also nullified the security concerns about Pakistan.

He also thanked Karachiites for showing hospitality to the exhibitors and visitors of IDEAS 2008.

Secretary Defence Production said that 275 JF-17 thunder jet will be handed over to Pakistan Air Force after the completion of testing phase.

"We have received so many queries for the purchase of these jets and more than 800 JF-17 will be exported to eight countries after meeting domestic requirements," he said mentioning that once negotiations were materialized, the export of JF-17 could go beyond 800 units, he added.

These aircrafts are produced under a technical collaboration with China and are also marketed under a joint venture with China, he said.

Gen Trimzey (retd) said that the growth of defence production industry in Pakistan has ended the monopoly of western countries.

-----------------------------------------------------------

PAF must be thinking highly of JF-17 Thunder their order size is increasing day by day
150 ----> 200---->250---->275

Is Pakistan even able to keep up this order itself? Evem with knocked down kits from China I can't see such an order being fulfilled solely from PAC especially since so far all JF-17/FC-1s have been from Chengdu. I wonder what the percentage from planes dirctly from China compared to those in Pakistan will be.

[Munir]

They are probably ready to replace even more other types. The faster they add BVR in big numbers the better the airforce will become. Whether J10 is that much better. I don;t think it is much better and certainly not in all fields.

[adeptitus]

I'd like to note that the PRC is assisting Pakistan to build up its own defense and aviation industry. Over the years there has been a lot of tech transfers in Q-5, J-6, J-7, T-85II, and K-8 products. If I'm not mistaken, Pakistan can also build and export K-8, JF-17, and MBT-2000.

Pakistan could've gotten better quality aircraft (at much higher cost) from US or EU, but they'd have to purchase the aircraft and probably not even get to assembly them locally. Tech transfers and re-export sales would've been impossible, plus you may be subjected to arms embargo.

Saudi Arabia recently purchased some $4 billion worth of Russian arms, 100 Mi-35 & Mi-17, 150 T-90 MBT, over 100 BMP-3, 20 Buk-M2E SAM, etc. They were cheaper than Western arms and the diversification gives them more security against the arms embargo by the west. If Pakistan continue to improve its domestic arms industry, they may be able to get a slice of the pie from wealthy Arab states arms purchase in the future.

...which also explains why China wouldn't want to just give away the best stuff to Pakistan, because they probably want a slice of that pie too!

[Baibar of Jalat]

I'd like to note that the PRC is assisting Pakistan to build up its own defense and aviation industry. Over the years there has been a lot of tech transfers in Q-5, J-6, J-7, T-85II, and K-8 products. If I'm not mistaken, Pakistan can also build and export K-8, JF-17, and MBT-2000.

Pakistan could've gotten better quality aircraft (at much higher cost) from US or EU, but they'd have to purchase the aircraft and probably not even get to assembly them locally. Tech transfers and re-export sales would've been impossible, plus you may be subjected to arms embargo.

Saudi Arabia recently purchased some $4 billion worth of Russian arms, 100 Mi-35 & Mi-17, 150 T-90 MBT, over 100 BMP-3, 20 Buk-M2E SAM, etc. They were cheaper than Western arms and the diversification gives them more security against the arms embargo by the west. If Pakistan continue to improve its domestic arms industry, they may be able to get a slice of the pie from wealthy Arab states arms purchase in the future.

...which also explains why China wouldn't want to just give away the best stuff to Pakistan, because they probably want a slice of that pie too!

If China gives its best stuff to Pakistan like J 10B it will take Pakistan many years to design and develop something. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on viewpoint by the time Pakistan does that China would have made something more advanced. Therefore what Pakistan would be offering would be old or worse obsolete.

It will take Pak many decades to get to the stage the Chinese avaition industry is at now. Largely developing and arming own aircraft. Lastly, if China does not export their frontline weapons to any nation they will lose billions in sales. Its a trade off betwen benefits and loss.

[asif iqbal]

China is not participating in the FC1/JF17 project for Financial Gains. CAC is.

China doesn't need Pakistan at all. 100%. These folks who think Pakistan has contributed to the FC1 project even 1% are delusional, powered on nationalistic pride, not reality.

China is ALLOWING CAC to create the JF17 for Pakistan for political reasons. Not for Financial or any other reason. Without China, Pakistan would go under, and end as a nation. India would easily defeat them if it weren't for China's help.

Seriously now. What can China get from Pakistan? Money? Pakistan is begging China for money right now. Pakistan is a beggar nation, China is the world's Bank. Technology? Pakistan is in the Stone Age compared to China.

Will PLAAF induct the FC1? Maybe a handful as trainers. They already have the J10 which is far superior to the JF17. Why would they want the unwanted red haired step child when they already have the J10?

yes thats right pakistan has contributed nothing and China isnt going to induct JF17 so what? are you jealous? your right China dont need pakistan but China is a FRIEND of pakistan and has always been a freind of pakistan just read history, China first gave PAF gift in 1965 it was F6 fighter, it wasnt great fighter but it was the best China had at the time so means alot to us

its not goverment friendship or politics friendship, its people to people friendship thats why China make JF17, thats why they offer F22P and J10 and all the rest of the projects do you get it now?

and if the need be or time ever comes pakistan will and has supported china in all international issues, there is no profit or loss between two brotherly nations

[flyboy2008]

That the J10A appears to be available for sale to Pakistan is a strong indication that China is well on it's way to the JXX program, and advanced versions of the J10 are almost complete.

What I wrote earlier may have offended some, but it's also the truth. China is Pakistan's best friend, and supporter. The FC1 program is for Pakistan's internal aviation development, and it will help them to be at near parity with India and her LCA project.

Let's be clear: China doesn't need Pakistan for finances, or technology. When I read people stating that Pakistan has a lot "good ideas" to offer China, I want to puke. You really think Chinese scientists can learn anything from Pakistan scientists? Sorry..that's not true. The flow of information is entirely one direction. This is not the 1980s China when China needed Pakistan's F16A. China today is equivalent to the USA at late 1980s level. China may be behind the USA at least 20 years, but the world is behind USA even more.

[SteelBird]

IDEAS 2008 helps secure orders worth $40 million
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.php?latest_id=9513

KARACHI ( 2008-11-28 20:01:52 ) :The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

I'm sure if the report above had a misspelling or anything. Did it mean $400 million or $40 billion? I wonder what are the orders of the $40 million? If that are for small arm, $40 million may means a lot. But for big stuff, they can only buy one aircraft or so.

[Delbert]

yes thats right pakistan has contributed nothing and China isnt going to induct JF17 so what? are you jealous? your right China dont need pakistan but China is a FRIEND of pakistan and has always been a freind of pakistan just read history, China first gave PAF gift in 1965 it was F6 fighter, it wasnt great fighter but it was the best China had at the time so means alot to us

its not goverment friendship or politics friendship, its people to people friendship thats why China make JF17, thats why they offer F22P and J10 and all the rest of the projects do you get it now?

and if the need be or time ever comes pakistan will and has supported china in all international issues, there is no profit or loss between two brotherly nations

I agree with you.

I think the one who messed up this thread must be banned from the forum.
Don't mind him too much.

I think he might just be as US pet or Indian pet who hated the China-Pakistan friendship and alliance and trying to write something here just to provoke or catch attention.

[dlhh]

I agree with those who say that the Pakistan-China friendship is a strategic one.

China also provided the blueprints to an atomic bomb when pakistan requested it. What more arguments are we going to have to say China won't sell the best to Pakistan. Read the news about the Pakistan's Father of nuclear bomb before you are going to argue over this.

Its a matter of fact that Pakistan is also a useful ally in the sense that it provides the PLA valuable advice on Air Warfare. Remember that Pakistan has experience on this. Pakistan also have access to the training of the most experienced air forces in the world, it has no arms embargo against it.

Its therefore more realistic to say that China will sell the best to Pakistan except missile technology which is prohibited because China is a signatory to the nuclear proliferation treaty.

Lastly, please provide the evidence that Pakistan has ever been denied weapons requested except for those prohibited by international treaties before saying that China does not export its best.

I willing to bet that if ever any Asean country wants to purchase the 054A Frigate or the advanced Yuan submarines, China would be more than willing to comply.

Its all a matter of geopolitics and soft power. Especially when you consider that at present, none of China's weapons is considered cutting edge and far ahead of the rest of the world.

[Londo Molari]

I'm sure if the report above had a misspelling or anything. Did it mean $400 million or $40 billion? I wonder what are the orders of the $40 million? If that are for small arm, $40 million may means a lot. But for big stuff, they can only buy one aircraft or so.

The only plane on display at the exhibition was the JF-17, and no sales have been inked yet. The $40 million figure sounds about right, and probably includes mainly guns and some UAV's or missiles.

The prospect of a production run of 800 JF-17's is pretty exciting. That would make it one of the more successful fighters in history.

[Semi-Lobster]

The only plane on display at the exhibition was the JF-17, and no sales have been inked yet. The $40 million figure sounds about right, and probably includes mainly guns and some UAV's or missiles.

The prospect of a production run of 800 JF-17's is pretty exciting. That would make it one of the more successful fighters in history.

800 is a pretty optimistic figure though. How many countries in total can afford to buy 800 JF-17s that don't already have a similiar aircraft? And if they did, export, in all likelyhood, these countries will most likely be considered rather poor and without existing 4th and up generation fighters, I wonder if there is a chance of a downgraded export variant, although I guess given the pretty low price (around 15 million each), especially compared to some other 'good' deals (Algeria roughly paid a little less then 40 million each for its 32 MiG-29SMTs).

Speaking of ugrades and downgrades, I can easily forsee the JF-17 becoming the 'MiG-21' for the new century. Cheap and heavily exported, but because of this, in all likelyhood, many of these JF-17s will have a VERY long life and to continue to be serviceable, will need upgrades every so often to maintain effectiveness. Given the small size of the JF-17's airframe, what is its 'upgrade potential'? The J-7/MiG-21 afterall (which the JF-1 is based on) turned out to be rather diffcult to turn it into a BVR capable fighter and when the proper equipment had been installed, it has proven to be a rather poor MRAAM platform.

[Delbert]

800 is a pretty optimistic figure though. How many countries in total can afford to buy 800 JF-17s that don't already have a similiar aircraft? And if they did, export, in all likelyhood, these countries will most likely be considered rather poor and without existing 4th and up generation fighters, I wonder if there is a chance of a downgraded export variant, although I guess given the pretty low price (around 15 million each), especially compared to some other 'good' deals (Algeria roughly paid a little less then 40 million each for its 32 MiG-29SMTs).

Speaking of ugrades and downgrades, I can easily forsee the JF-17 becoming the 'MiG-21' for the new century. Cheap and heavily exported, but because of this, in all likelyhood, many of these JF-17s will have a VERY long life and to continue to be serviceable, will need upgrades every so often to maintain effectiveness. Given the small size of the JF-17's airframe, what is its 'upgrade potential'? The J-7/MiG-21 afterall (which the JF-1 is based on) turned out to be rather diffcult to turn it into a BVR capable fighter and when the proper equipment had been installed, it has proven to be a rather poor MRAAM platform.

Though JF-17 cannot match the front line fighters in the up coming generation, it can still serve as the best and cost efficient interceptors. Hardware of the aircraft alone is not the basis, look at the J-7 variant, how many times was it upgraded?

And foremost, what is really important was a well trained pilots.

Even your opponent posses better aircrafts which are more expensive. Developing countries will tend to have fewer of those.

Example by having 32 MIG-29, you can use your cheaper plane cost to your advantage by increasing its numbers. like 3 vs 1. If you also possess well trained pilots. Victory is guaranteed.

[tphuang]

I agree with those who say that the Pakistan-China friendship is a strategic one.

China also provided the blueprints to an atomic bomb when pakistan requested it. What more arguments are we going to have to say China won't sell the best to Pakistan. Read the news about the Pakistan's Father of nuclear bomb before you are going to argue over this.

Its a matter of fact that Pakistan is also a useful ally in the sense that it provides the PLA valuable advice on Air Warfare. Remember that Pakistan has experience on this. Pakistan also have access to the training of the most experienced air forces in the world, it has no arms embargo against it.

Its therefore more realistic to say that China will sell the best to Pakistan except missile technology which is prohibited because China is a signatory to the nuclear proliferation treaty.

Lastly, please provide the evidence that Pakistan has ever been denied weapons requested except for those prohibited by international treaties before saying that China does not export its best.

I willing to bet that if ever any Asean country wants to purchase the 054A Frigate or the advanced Yuan submarines, China would be more than willing to comply.

Its all a matter of geopolitics and soft power. Especially when you consider that at present, none of China's weapons is considered cutting edge and far ahead of the rest of the world.

giving nuclear weapon secret back in the days does not mean they are willing to give their best now. Yes, they did deny J-11B to Pakistan. As I said before, there are certain weapon systems in PLA that is off limits for export. You can accept it or not, but that's the truth. As for 054A, they certainly have plans to export it, but only after the ship fulfills domestic needs. And they certainly will not export something like 052C. As for Yuan, there is also currently no plans to export it. However, Song is on the market. As I said before, this argument that Pakistan has access to more advanced weapon does not work, because China doesn't need to export these systems. It's domestic orders are enough to sustain the military complex.

The only plane on display at the exhibition was the JF-17, and no sales have been inked yet. The $40 million figure sounds about right, and probably includes mainly guns and some UAV's or missiles.

The prospect of a production run of 800 JF-17's is pretty exciting. That would make it one of the more successful fighters in history.

Let's no go so far so fast.