JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread 2009

[jawad]

Please follow these guidelines when posting your views and news in this thread

1. No discussion of PLAAF introducing Fc-1 unless you have a official source confirming your view from PLAAF and PAF at same dates i.e. no discussion on this matter at all
   
2. No discussion on the issues like china is not willing to transfer ------ technology unless you have official statement
   
3. No discussion on which projects are offered and which are not offered to Pakistan, Please start new thread if really have to discuss this issue, but don’t make a mess of this thread
   
4. No discussion on economic & social issues, make a new thread and discuss that to death if you want but not here
   
5. Please keep this thread clean and don’t wake the big giants, just give them little time to rest

China's NRIET outlines fighter radar improvements

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Beijing

Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) has revealed details of its airborne fighter radar programmes at CIDEX 2008 in Beijing.

Representatives of NRIET at the Chinese defence electronics exhibition told Jane's in early April that the KLJ-7 radar installed in the FC-1/JF-17 - the fighter aircraft developed jointly with Pakistan - has undergone improvements from its original configuration. The system can now "manage up to 40 targets, track up to 10 in track-while-scan [TWS] mode and engage two targets simultaneously", they said.


NRIET is the major supplier of fighter radar systems to Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, which produces the FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighter aircraft.

Like other Chinese companies, NRIET has made progress in upgrading the performance of its systems and has benefited from the advances that China's industries have made in designing more robust and state-of-the-art components. NRIET said that work had started on developing an AESA fighter radar, but that details of this programme were classified.

Through joint development and co-operation with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) on the JF-17 variant of the FC-1 and from bilateral discussions with other foreign defence companies, NRIET is believed to have gained access to a number of overseas radar systems that have been used for testing and development of the KLJ series.

Concerns were raised in some quarters in March when it was confirmed that French officials were in talks with Pakistan about the sale of radar systems for use in the JF-17 - the worry being that Beijing would also gain access to the technology.

Officials from Russia's Phazotron radar design centre previously told Jane's that NRIET had purchased two Zemchug radars that it uses for "A/B comparisons of their radar's performance against our design".

However, they hastened to add that China's radars "are not copies of our designs. It is not correct to call anything that the Chinese build a copy because they use their own components [and] their own electronic circuit boards. Some of their designs may appear to be analogues of someone else's design but they are not copies".

NRIET has also been known as Research Institute No 14 or Nanjing Radar Plant 720 and is the largest of the China Electronic Technology Corporation (CETC) consortium's research institutes. CETC is the largest military products industrial group in China.

[jawad]

CATIC develops strong ties with Pakistan armed forces: Ambassador Khan

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?...64555&Itemid=1


BEIJING, Jan 11 (APP)- Expressing his complete confidence in China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) as one of the most resilient links and a unifying factor between Pakistan and China, Ambassador Masood Khan said Sunday that his country is proud of its relationship with CATIC.

In the last three decades, CATIC has developed strong ties with Pakistan Army, Air Force, and Navy. Its ties with Pakistan air force are the strongest, Ambassador Khan said while addressing the ceremony to celebrate 30th founding anniversary of CATIC here.

The ceremony was largely attended among others by President AVIC Lin Zuoming, Assistant Foreign Minister Zhai Jun, and President CATIC Fu Shula.

He pointed out that the co-production of JF-17 fighter is the crowning of the most productive collaboration between PAF and CATIC.

The project is a milestone. It symbolizes the depth of trust and confidence between our two countries, Khan observed.

The co-production of JF-17 has the potential to grow further and bring new technological dividends, he said adding we will reinforce this cooperation to move into other areas to learn and benefit from China’s cutting edge aviation technology and CATIC’s proven competencies.

Expressing his full confidence, Khan said that the bonds of friendship, co-operation and mutual support between Pakistan armed forces and CATIC will grow from strength to strength in the years to come.

Pakistan, Khan said also recognizes the great contributions made by Vice President Yang Ying. Vice President Ma Zhiping, Mr. Li Pei CPD JF-17, and Mr. Liu Yu Executive Director to strengthen relations between CATIC and Pakistan Armed Forces, especially Pakistan Air Force.

“We value your work and wish CATIC more successes in future”, he noted.

In the past thirty years, Khan said China has pursued a unique model combining strengths of socialist and market economies and CATIC is a living symbol of that paradigm.

In the strategic sphere, he said China has now established itself as a major global player. The new world order cannot be conceived without China, as the Chinese soft power extends to Asia and beyond to the entire globe.

He said that despite the exponential growth in China’s economic power and political clout, Beijing has maintained and strengthened its ties with developing countries.

The key words, Khan said used by Chinese statesmen are “equality, mutual benefit, and mutual respect” that help us create a peaceful and stable world.

Since 1979, Khan said when its foundation was laid by China’s venerable and visionary leader, Chairman Deng Xiaoping - CATIC has made tremendous progress in diverse fields of aviation from cutting edge engineering to import and export to construction.

[Indianfighter]

This news report is rumored to be from 1995 (posted in Keypublishing first, courtesy, BirdDog19).

China, India discuss LCA project

According to this report, Zhang Yang-Chong, vice-President of Aviation Industries of China, visited ADA headquarters in Bangalore to discuss the LCA project with his counterpart there.

Now, this is not a comparison but just a very interesting and amazing historical fact : India and China actually contemplated co-operating on the LCA ! If I'm not mistaken, Aviation Industries of China is the same one developing the FC-1. So, are FC-1 and LCA twins separated before birth ?

Just whipping some historic nostalgia here. No need to compare the present aircraft.

[Indianfighter]

India's Air Force Chief had this to say about the JF-17 :-

"The JF-17 is a fairly good plane, though there is nothing sensational about it. It is a class of lower than the F-16. I flew the simulator at Singapore air show. It is capable, but nothing that bothers me."

He said this in a recent interview.

[planeman]

Interesting quote, but I think he's being a bit misleading comparing it to the F-16 because inevitably we assume he means Pakistani F-16As, which it is undoubtedly superior to if only by virtue of its BVR capability.

[Baibar of Jalat]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

India's Air Force Chief had this to say about the JF-17 :-

"The JF-17 is a fairly good plane, though there is nothing sensational about it. It is a class of lower than the F-16. I flew the simulator at Singapore air show. It is capable, but nothing that bothers me."

He said this in a recent interview.

Date of flying a simulator? I remember an Indian journalist compared simulator proformance to Ambassdor car made in India.

Generally J 10 and F 16 block 52 will be the premier aircraft. Everyone knows that. Plus as we seen the FC 1 has envolved from being a better version of J 7's. To something on par with F 16s in terms of flying ability. In terms of avionics the JF 17 will eventually be better then the upgraded Pakistani F 16s, when newer radar and avionics are developed.

Seperately I hope, Chinese avionics are fitted in next batch of FC 1, why because Pakistan can rapidly import Chinese missiles without being sanctioned in times of war.

[Indianfighter]

Originally Posted by planeman

Interesting quote, but I think he's being a bit misleading comparing it to the F-16 because inevitably we assume he means Pakistani F-16As, which it is undoubtedly superior to if only by virtue of its BVR capability.

Well, he could also have meant the F-16s that are on sale to India under MRCA. But it's true that by far the JF-17 is the most capable jet in the PAF presently i.e. before they get newer F-16s and J-10s.

[mean_bird]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

India's Air Force Chief had this to say about the JF-17 :-

"The JF-17 is a fairly good plane, though there is nothing sensational about it. It is a class of lower than the F-16. I flew the simulator at Singapore air show. It is capable, but nothing that bothers me."

He said this in a recent interview.

Is it available on youtube? or any link to it?

[Indianfighter]

^ ^ It appeared in DTI, Feb 09 issue, page no. 55. The entire interview is on pages 54, 55.

[Semi-Lobster]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

^ ^ It appeared in DTI, Feb 09 issue, page no. 55. The entire interview is on pages 54, 55.

A very good interview, Chief Fali Homi Major is certainly an experienced individual with decades of experience, although his F-16 comment I believe is more directed at current F-16 Block 50+, the F-16 is over 30 years old. The old F-16As are worlds apart from their more capable successors. I'm not surprised about his comments on the JF-17, it is capable enough but nothing remarkable as the aircraft was never designed to be terribly remarkable in the first place but cost effective.

[adeptitus]

For years the commonly cited capability of the JF-17/FC-1 was "70% of F-16". When I read the specs, what came to mind was that the JF-17 was Pakistan's "IDF". Where Taiwan's IDF was supported by US defense industry, Pakistan's JF-17 was supported by China's.

A more recent example is S. Korea's F/A-50. The aircraft is obviously inferior to F-16 C/D, but it'd be silly to compare them on even level.

The JF-17 project also brings Pakistan's domestic military aviation industry up to date. Here's a good article on China's assistance to Pakistan military aviation industry in the past:
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=6354
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakista...utical_Complex

The PAC has performed valuable service in maintaining and upgrading J-6/F-6, J-7/F-7, Mirage-III/V, etc. aircraft. But those aircraft are now largely obsolete. The JF-17 project brings PAC up to date in manufacturing modern fighter aircraft. Though the JF-17 is inferior to F-16 C/D, it can also be said that there are very few countries in this world that has the manufacturing capability to produce, or even assemble fighter aircraft.

[mean_bird]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

^ ^ It appeared in DTI, Feb 09 issue, page no. 55. The entire interview is on pages 54, 55.

thanks.. a good interview
just out of curiosity, at what age do IAF officers retire ?

Originally Posted by adeptitus

For years the commonly cited capability of the JF-17/FC-1 was "70% of F-16". When I read the specs, what came to mind was that the JF-17 was Pakistan's "IDF". Where Taiwan's IDF was supported by US defense industry, Pakistan's JF-17 was supported by China's.

A more recent example is S. Korea's F/A-50. The aircraft is obviously inferior to F-16 C/D, but it'd be silly to compare them on even level.

The JF-17 project also brings Pakistan's domestic military aviation industry up to date. Here's a good article on China's assistance to Pakistan military aviation industry in the past:
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=6354
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakista...utical_Complex

The PAC has performed valuable service in maintaining and upgrading J-6/F-6, J-7/F-7, Mirage-III/V, etc. aircraft. But those aircraft are now largely obsolete. The JF-17 project brings PAC up to date in manufacturing modern fighter aircraft. Though the JF-17 is inferior to F-16 C/D, it can also be said that there are very few countries in this world that has the manufacturing capability to produce, or even assemble fighter aircraft.

I don't understand when people say Jf-17 is inferior to F-16...are they talking about maneuverability? avionics and radar? weapons? F-16A/Bs are remarkably good in maneuverability and quite agile...still better than a lot of modern-day aircraft.

I believe, as the ACM PAF once said when asked the same question, that JF-17s are quite comparable to all modern 4/4.5 gen aircraft...clearly, it currently lacks certain things which he mentioned such as only 7 hardpoints, avionics and radar, weapons system which are quite good but maybe not equal to say a higher block F-16, or Rafale/Eurofighter.

But with the proposed western avionics, and AESA radar already on offer and the MICA or the meteor BVRAAMs (both on offer) ...I do not see how a JF-17 cannot be called a true, capable 4.5 gen aircraft. Not to mention that the ACM specifically said in his interview that they are working on increasing the hardpoints to 9.

And I am not talking about fanboy stuff like stealth JF-17, or TVC, and what not (even though pshamim from pakdef does mention a future twin-tail version) but stuff that's already on offer and realizable in the near foreseeable future

[Indianfighter]

I agree. Manufacturing the JF-17 will give the Pakistani aviation industry experience and knowledge, which till now was nothing more than an MRO facility with very limited capability in manufacturing aircraft components.

India was in the same stage 30 years ago when it first started licence building Migs and Jaguars and then progressed to designing the indigenous ... ahem ... you-know-what.
China too came up this way, first by licence building F-7s and then improving the designs to make J-8, FC-1 and finally designing J-10.

There are no geniuses. A country has to be taught first. Even Russia got a lot of help from UK, Germany and France before it's own aviation industry could take root sometime during WW2.

[Munir]

Unfortunately the discussion is diverted towards both sides pointing at the other. But in essence BillBoy said the exact truth words. Look at Israel, South Africa, North Korea, Iran , China etc. They all succeeded cause they are marked as outcast by the western nations. The more they are pushed the more they will move towards national production. There is no alternative. India is indeed seen as big market and the western powers see no reason to blaim them for exporting terrorism in Kashmir or Sri Lanka... And as seen, the Indian facilities are maybe marketed as national but in reality the assemble foreign parts or "co-operate" with other producers. Their major productions are not really accepted by their own forces.

[Spike]

I think our friend billyboy might want to change his "Location" under his avatar. Sorry for the OT.