JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Munir]

I do have to add that the latest pictures of LCA during airshow in india show that they are much further with weapon integration. Fueltanks, 2 aam, LDP and the dropping of bombs... So far we have seen not much of that when we talk about JF17. I think that India has pushed the search for partners a lot further. And looking at how many still want to be their MRCA shows that there is offset. For India, I hope they select their LCA above other options. It will give them a lot more future then depending on others. With the amount of cash they will be able to get latest gadgets. A lot easier then China which is boycotted since TAMS.

Still, JF17 is often linked towestern products so with Pakistan the Chinese will be able to go further. The real test will be the next gen.

[Indianfighter]

The problem with gathering info about JF-17 is secrecy. Atleast whatever I know about it is only from informal (but good) sources like sinodefence. Now that it is continuing testing in Pakistan, and the turmoil the country is in, we'll have even lesser info.

[Baibar of Jalat]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

The problem with gathering info about JF-17 is secrecy. Atleast whatever I know about it is only from informal (but good) sources like sinodefence. Now that it is continuing testing in Pakistan, and the turmoil the country is in, we'll have even lesser info.

How did you come up with that? Secrecy would have been the same regardless of events in Pakistan. I am under the impression that militaries tend to be secret. If you look at other websites you will know PAF will most likely induct a squadron in March 2009. We have to wait and see, if that happens?!

Also it is more training then testing happening in Pakistan. It does not take a leap of faith to believe Pakistani pilots were stationed in China, when it was tested there. Also why would PAF start manufacture of FC 1 when testing is incomplete. It would be a waste of airframes, if PAF pilots found major flaws thus needing a redesign of aircraft. Again if their were issues it would have been discovered by PAF pilots in China.

[mean_bird]

I have some questions:

1. Is CAC going to have an assembly line for the JF-17? from what I figure out, they won't have an assembly line unless pakistan wants to induct them rapidly or their is a large order from either PLAAF or any other country. Does that mean that any export to a 3rd country would be delivered by the PAC?

2. When the prototypes of the JF-17 were made, it was a dual digital fbw but they said it will be enhanced to quad fbw...has it been done for the current production version or will it be done in next batch/block?

[Londo Molari]

I think there will definitely be a production line for JF-17 in China. I wouldn't be surprised if its already in place. That's probably how CAC will earn the bulk of its profits from the project. I doubt sending components to PAC for assembly is as profitable.

As for PAC, there is no way the assembly facilities in Pakistan will be enough to meet all the demands anyway. At the recent launching ceremony of the facilities, the project leader said that they can assemble 50% of PAF's demand. That makes sense given PAF's stated plan to induct 150-250 aircraft between 2008 and 2013. That's roughly 40 aircraft a year.

[SteelBird]

Just found this pix on sina.com. It said the PAF JF-17 now has its weapon pylons installed.

[mean_bird]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

I agree. Manufacturing the JF-17 will give the Pakistani aviation industry experience and knowledge, which till now was nothing more than an MRO facility with very limited capability in manufacturing aircraft components.

India was in the same stage 30 years ago when it first started licence building Migs and Jaguars and then progressed to designing the indigenous ... ahem ... you-know-what.
China too came up this way, first by licence building F-7s and then improving the designs to make J-8, FC-1 and finally designing J-10.

There are no geniuses. A country has to be taught first. Even Russia got a lot of help from UK, Germany and France before it's own aviation industry could take root sometime during WW2.

Are you one of those who still thing JF-17 is an "improvement" of the Mig 21?
You are joking, right? If anything, its similar to the F-16 (wings and tail) and F-18 (LERX). The inlet is different, the nose is different the fuselage is different, the cockpit is different. You might as well want to call the Raptor as an improvement of the first plane by the Wright Brothers by analogy.

The original Super-7 concept and the current FC-1 have little if anything in common.

Two quick questions if someone is knowledgeable or has any references.

1- We know that the LERX by design provide extra lift, hence enabling higher AoA...anyone knows the design requirement of the AoA of the JF-17? or the achieved AoA?

2- We have heard before that Klimov was willing to supply an improved RD-93 engine with less/no smoke and approx. 10% higher thrust. Anyone knows if the production version are using these improved engines or the normal (older) ones?

thanks

[jawad]

PAF to start serial production of JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft soon

With singing of an agreement between Pakistan Air Force and Chinese firm CATIC the serial production of JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft would start soon. The agreement between PAF and CATIC on the basis of “seller’s credit” was reached at a ceremony held here Saturday, whereby 42 fighter jets would be jointly produced for the use of PAF.

The agreement was signed on behalf of PAF by Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Air Marshal Khalid Chaudary and President CATIC MA Zhiping which was witnessed by Chief of the Air Staff PAF Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed and Ambassador of China to Pakistan Luo Zhaohui besides other senior officials from both the parties. Under the agreement the lot of 42 aircraft would be co-manufactured by China and Pakistan and later these would be inducted in the PAF’s fleet. By 2015 PAF will get 250 JF-17s at cost of 3000 millions. Though Pakistan is facing a financial crunch, the serial production of the aircraft is being started with the cooperation of the Chinese government, Mahmood said. Pakistan has invested USD 600 million in the JF-17 project.

Talking to media, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed congratulated the peoples and governments of Pakistan and China on conduction of successful tests and trails of the most modern aircraft of its class and signing of agreement for start of their serial production. He said “despite all odds we have been successful to reach the stage of starting serial production of the aircraft.” “In the beginning we will produce 15 aircraft annually and their number will increase to 30 in a year this programme will be carried out in phases,” he said. He said that PAF will get 40 JF-17 thunders this year.



He said first squadron of these highest quality fighter jets would be inducted in the PAF’s fleet by mid of this year as PAF has already been using 8 jointly produced aircraft for the last couple of years. This fleet would be raised in Peshawar, he added.



About the delivery of AWACS system to Pakistan, he said that agreement had already been reached with a Chinese firm which would start its delivery by 2010. On the delivery of first AWACS system Pakistan would pay 10 % cost of the aircraft while the rest would be paid on easy installments basis, he said.


Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J‑10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

[mean_bird]

ISLAMABAD: With singing of an agreement between Pakistan Air Force and Chinese firm CATIC the serial production of JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft would start soon.

The agreement between PAF and CATIC on the basis of “seller’s credit” was reached at a ceremony held here Saturday, whereby 42 fighter jets would be jointly produced for the use of PAF.

The agreement was signed on behalf of PAF by Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Air Marshal Khalid Chaudary and President CATIC MA Zhiping which was witnessed by Chief of the Air Staff PAF Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed and Ambassador of China to Pakistan Luo Zhaohui besides other senior officials from both the parties.
Under the agreement the lot of 42 aircraft would be co-manufactured by China and Pakistan and later these would be inducted in the PAF’s fleet.

Talking to media, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed congratulated the peoples and governments of Pakistan and China on conduction of successful tests and trails of the most modern aircraft of its class and signing of agreement for start of their serial production.

He said “despite all odds we have been successful to reach the stage of starting serial production of the aircraft.”

“In the beginning we will produce 15 aircraft annually and their number will increase to 30 in a year- this programme will be carried out in phases,” he said.

He said first squadron of these highest quality fighter jets would be inducted in the PAF’s fleet by mid of this year as PAF has already been using 8 jointly produced aircraft for the last couple of years.

This fleet would be raised in Peshawar, he added.

About the delivery of AWACS system to Pakistan, he said that agreement had already been reached with a Chinese firm which would start its delivery by 2010.

On the delivery of first AWACS system Pakistan would pay 10 % cost of the aircraft while the rest would be paid on easy installments basis, he said.

Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

President CATIC MA Zhiping told the media “first aircraft under this agreement would fly in the Pakistani air during this year.”

He said the joint venture between CATIC and PAF will go a long way forward in the aviation history.

Ambassador of China to Pakistan LUO Zhaohui said the JF-17 fighter jet is another milestone achieved in furthering the bilateral relations between the nations of Pakistan and China.

“It is a big day for both the countries,” he said.

He made special mention of Pakistan’s support to China on different issues of world repute and said the whole Chinese nation is thankful and mindful of Pakistan’s support.

“We are cooperating in every sector and this speaks our deepest rooted friendship and bonds,” he said.

The JF-17 Project is a unique programme in the sense that it distinguishes the Pakistan Air Force from any other Air Forces of the world as a manufacturer of fighter aircraft.

The JF-17 aircraft has been specifically designed to meet the operation requirements of Pakistan Air Force. Apart from becoming the mainstay of PAF’s air operations in the near future, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft re‑assures abilities to gain self‑reliance and offers an excellent opportunity for laying the foundations of an advanced and offers an excellent opportunity for laying the foundations of an advanced aviation industry in Pakistan.

The JF-17 Thunder co-development and co-production programme was formally launched in 1998. Major mile-stones of the project for development and production of the aircraft were divided in three stages.

The detailed design of the aircraft was finalized in September, 2001 and the first prototype aircraft flew its maiden flight in a record short time of two years. the second prototype flew in April, 2004 and subsequently, two additional flying prototypes of the JF-17 aircraft were also manufactured in the following years to conduct flight testing of JF-17 aircraft.

Following the successful progress of flight trails on prototype JF-17 aircraft, eight Small Batch Production aircraft were manufactured in year-2007, which were subjected to extensive flight testing and evaluation in the last two years in Pakistan.

This activity helped PAF in maturing the design of JF-17 Thunder aircraft.

The experience gained on these aircraft has been extremely encouraging and it is a matter of great satisfaction for us that we are now progressing to the serial production phase of JF‑17 aircraft with full confidence.

In serial Production Phase, qualified JF-17 aircraft will be produced in PAC Kamra for induction in Pakistan Air Force where they will be fully utilized in various combat roles. This would not only help Pakistan Air Force in fulfilling its operational requirements at affordable costs but also ensure readily available and continued technical and logistic support for these aircraft through out their life cycle.

JF‑17 Thunder Project is an outcome of the vision, friendship and mutual cooperation between the friendly countries of Pakistan and China. The Project has now moved out of ‘development and testing’ phase to the full operationalisation phase.

The journey to this stage has been arduous and challenging: however, this has only been possible through the persistent hard work and dedication of designers, engineers, pilots and programme managers of Pakistan Air Force along with Chinese partners, and above all the blessings of Almighty Allah.

In the shape of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, PAF is proceeding to have a modern fighter aircraft with state-of-the-art avionics and weapons that offers multi-role day and night precision attack capability to defend our motherland against any aggression.

Pak, China sign agreement for production of JF-17

250 planes for just $3 billion??? that's pretty cost effective I must say.

Now that the "development and testing" phase is over, any news about when the twin-seater version will fly?

Probably sometime in 2010

[Schumacher]

Originally Posted by jawad

PAF to start serial production of JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft soon

.......

Congratulations to Pakistan. A good strategy to get a modern, cost-effective fighter while building up a substantial manufacturing & technical base.

[ChinaSoldier]

Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J‑10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

This should give Pakistan the AESA, up-engined, more stealthy J10. I think that's a very good decision. It will better differentiate the FC-20 as Pakistan's top end fighter.

[jawad]

Originally Posted by Schumacher

Congratulations to Pakistan. A good strategy to get a modern, cost-effective fighter while building up a substantial manufacturing & technical base.

Total requirement is of 250 JF-17 thunders and 8 are already delivered to Pakistan so out of 250 thunders 195 (15+30+30+30+30+30+30) will be manufactured and assembled in PAC Kamra(Plus parts for export orders) and remaining 47 JF-17 Thunders will be manufactured in china.This will certainly be a big boost for PAC and aeronautical industry of Pakistan.

[PrOeLiTeZ]

Originally Posted by ChinaSoldier

This should give Pakistan the AESA, up-engined, more stealthy J10. I think that's a very good decision. It will better differentiate the FC-20 as Pakistan's top end fighter.

Even if Pakistan received the current J-10 variants still would be its most advance fighter in its inventory with the F-16.

[Indianfighter]

Originally Posted by mean_bird

Are you one of those who still thing JF-17 is an "improvement" of the Mig 21?
You are joking, right? If anything, its similar to the F-16 (wings and tail) and F-18 (LERX). The inlet is different, the nose is different the fuselage is different, the cockpit is different.

I think I was one of the first to suggest that the F-16's flaperon wing has found it's way on the JF-17. The rumors about consulting an F-16 from PAF may not be that untrue after all. Yet, it has descended from the MiG-21 family. You can refer to sinodefence.com for more information on the JF-17.

Originally Posted by mean_bird

2- We have heard before that Klimov was willing to supply an improved RD-93 engine with less/no smoke and approx. 10% higher thrust. Anyone knows if the production version are using these improved engines or the normal (older) ones?

The PAF has expressed desire to switch from RD-93 to some European engine. This was stated by Tanver Mahmod who is PAF's chief.

[mean_bird]

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

I think I was one of the first to suggest that the F-16's flaperon wing has found it's way on the JF-17. The rumors about consulting an F-16 from PAF may not be that untrue after all. Yet, it has descended from the MiG-21 family. You can refer to sinodefence.com for more information on the JF-17.

Interesting...what exactly do you call a MiG-21 family? Do you consider MiG-29 to be from this family?

To me a family of aircraft (or engine) is something that as the same core but details may be different. For example the su-27 and Su-30 are based on the same basic airframe or the J-11 and J11B. You improve the structure and/or you increase/decrease slightly the size of wings, fin, tail, etc.

I fail to see any similarity between a Mig-21 and the JF-17 to call it from its family ( not that I have anything against the MiG-21...I think it was an epic plane). The nose, the fuselage, the engine, the wings, the horizontal tail, the vertical tail, the inlets everything is different.

As far as sinodefence is concerned, I am the person who mailed the admin to have the page updated. It still mentions no in-flight refueling so if the admin is reading this , please change that too.

We all know that original project was a "super-7" between Chengdu and Gruman. That contract however, was terminated after Tianamen incident. Why do you think they changed the project's name from Super-7 to FC-1?

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

The PAF has expressed desire to switch from RD-93 to some European engine. This was stated by Tanver Mahmod who is PAF's chief.

I am well aware of that. My question is about the RD-93 in the first batch of 50 planes.