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The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

This is a discussion on The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; I thought a proper thread to discuss the older and (mostly) retired aircraft of the PLAAF and PLANAF was in ...

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    The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    I thought a proper thread to discuss the older and (mostly) retired aircraft of the PLAAF and PLANAF was in order, hopefully this thread can be a hub of discussion for older aircraft.

    So here's my first question. A lot of sites talk about the 'J-4' but from what I understand that the J-4 designation was never used. Was I wrong or are there just a lot of incorrect info floating around? Secondly I'm having trouble getting more information on the J-3 and J-2... I know they exist but finding sites on them in English or Chinese is kind of hard (they all re-direct to speculation pages on the J-13 and J-14) Also, who buit these aircraft, were they all imported from Russia? Also, I assume there was never a J-1 because I've never heard of it being mentioned.

    Secondly, does anybody have any information on the 'Shenyang FT-1' http://www.sac.com.cn/eng/military/FT-1.htm ? Did it ever enter production?

    Thirdly a question about the cancelled Nanchang (now Hongdu) J-12. Does anybody have a site detailing its history of development? I know it was mean't to meet a PLAAF requirement for a light, STOL, but, it was only 10 metres long! It seems like a fighter designed from another era with more in common with the Folland Gnat than the F-5.

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    The J-5 was the first jet fighter China actually started to produce. That would be the MiG-17. Prior to that, MiG-15s had all been imported, but none domestically produced.

    The first jet fighter ever imported to China and wore the PLAAF insignia was the MiG-9. That was based on a secret project Messerschmitt concocted in the closing days of World War II. A few of these aircraft are still in some museums in China.
    "Lets do a thermal sweep."

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    The J-5 was the first jet fighter China actually started to produce. That would be the MiG-17. Prior to that, MiG-15s had all been imported, but none domestically produced.

    The first jet fighter ever imported to China and wore the PLAAF insignia was the MiG-9. That was based on a secret project Messerschmitt concocted in the closing days of World War II. A few of these aircraft are still in some museums in China.
    So the MiG-17 was the first Chinese built jet fighter and before that the designation of imported Soviet aircraft was not changed? Also wasn't the Yakovlev Yak-17 also imported as well to China?

    I'm still trying to figure out what this jet trainer is based on. It seems to be a specificly purpose built jet trainer which is certainly something the Soviet Union never did. From what I've read, it was a completely indigenously designed aircraft amazingly enough but it seems beyond one built it never really entered service it seems.

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    The SAC jet seems completely indigenous and yet I never heard of it until now. I guess they don't show a lot of stuff until now. That certainly makes it the first Chinese indigenous jet. Originally I thought SAC's J-12 of 1966 was the first indigenous Chinese jet. Now make that the first supersonic jet.
    "Lets do a thermal sweep."

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    The SAC jet seems completely indigenous and yet I never heard of it until now. I guess they don't show a lot of stuff until now. That certainly makes it the first Chinese indigenous jet. Originally I thought SAC's J-12 of 1966 was the first indigenous Chinese jet. Now make that the first supersonic jet.
    The Chinese designation for the 'FT-1' seems to be JJ-1. It seems that the Chinese don't really talk much about it except in passing. I still can't figure what happened, either the prototype crashed or there was a revised training system for fighter aircraft and the JJ-1 did not meet the requirements

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    A while back I thought I read somewhere that the Bangladeshi F-7BGs are BVR capable and were armed with MRAAMs but recently I have read another article saying that its nearly identical to the J-7G in terms of avionics and only has a range of about 30km, and is armed with only short range missiles. Is this correct?

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    The J-5 was the first jet fighter China actually started to produce. That would be the MiG-17. Prior to that, MiG-15s had all been imported, but none domestically produced.

    The first jet fighter ever imported to China and wore the PLAAF insignia was the MiG-9. That was based on a secret project Messerschmitt concocted in the closing days of World War II. A few of these aircraft are still in some museums in China.
    Actually I think SAC did produced J4 as well, which is Mig 15

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by yehe View Post
    Actually I think SAC did produced J4 as well, which is Mig 15
    So did the J-4 exist or did it not exist? I'm still confused over this

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    A while back I thought I read somewhere that the Bangladeshi F-7BGs are BVR capable and were armed with MRAAMs but recently I have read another article saying that its nearly identical to the J-7G in terms of avionics and only has a range of about 30km, and is armed with only short range missiles. Is this correct?
    I doubt that the radar is BVRAAM capable. As for the range, even a small radar like that should have a range in excess of 30km. I would speculate 50 to 60km is possible using range while search. However, on a track while scan function it should go down to 20 to 30km. If the radar is the SY-80, which operates at Ku band, not like the KLJ-6E at X-band, the range maybe shorter but on the other hand, the resolving and tracking power is even greater.
    "Lets do a thermal sweep."

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    I doubt that the radar is BVRAAM capable. As for the range, even a small radar like that should have a range in excess of 30km. I would speculate 50 to 60km is possible using range while search. However, on a track while scan function it should go down to 20 to 30km. If the radar is the SY-80, which operates at Ku band, not like the KLJ-6E at X-band, the range maybe shorter but on the other hand, the resolving and tracking power is even greater.
    Well thats the thing, the F-7BG does use the KLJ-6E, the same the Chinese J-7G which as far as I can tell, has an effective range of about 30km. This article http://www.***************/index.php...article&id=250 says that while the F-7BG had BVR while in the same article only said it had a range of 30km. Then again this article is a bit suspect. After the first few paragraphs its word-for-word copy of this article from a Sri Lankan Newspaper http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/...069_space.html about the Sri Lankan F-7GS

    EDIT: Hmmm... thats weird, it won't seem to let me show the link, strange....

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    30km is the range of the old JL-7. So the article is kind of suspect. If the radar is the KLJ-6E, that radar does not have the BVR mode. The KLJ-6F with emphasis on the F is the one that does.
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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    30km is the range of the old JL-7. So the article is kind of suspect. If the radar is the KLJ-6E, that radar does not have the BVR mode. The KLJ-6F with emphasis on the F is the one that does.
    Oh wait, I got the articles mixed up, the BG it seems DOES have the KLJ-6F, it is the Sri Lankan F-7GS that uses the KLJ-6E.

    About the KLJ-6F, what is the range of it. How different is it from the KLJ-6E used by PLAAF's J-7G. BTW I understand that the J-7E/G make a mediocre MRAAM platform because of its small range and fuel capacity, even with the additonal fuel capacity from the redesigned wing, but why did they not upgrade the J-7G with the KLJ-6F? Was it not cost effective? Is the difference in performance not different enough?
    Last edited by Semi-Lobster; 12-19-2008 at 10:11 PM.

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    There is no published info about range on the brochures of the KLJ-6F so far. The only difference it appears to have the -E version is the additional modes necessary to support BVRAAM. There might be an increase in performance but that's only speculative.

    As for the PLAAF J-7G, its impossible to tell or with absolute certainty what they installed is the -E or the -F. So far we have never seen operational J-7G with the PL-12. If we have pictures to show, then there is proof. Its likely the -F was developed after the -E, and after the J-7G was certified with the -E, so -F may have came too late. The J-7G program began around 2003 and 2004, and there was no info on the KLJ-6F until 2006-2007.
    "Lets do a thermal sweep."

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    There is no published info about range on the brochures of the KLJ-6F so far. The only difference it appears to have the -E version is the additional modes necessary to support BVRAAM. There might be an increase in performance but that's only speculative.

    As for the PLAAF J-7G, its impossible to tell or with absolute certainty what they installed is the -E or the -F. So far we have never seen operational J-7G with the PL-12. If we have pictures to show, then there is proof. Its likely the -F was developed after the -E, and after the J-7G was certified with the -E, so -F may have came too late. The J-7G program began around 2003 and 2004, and there was no info on the KLJ-6F until 2006-2007.
    Production of the G has already ended hasn't it? IIRC All domestic J-7 prouction has ended, its all F-7MGs now for export although this is all from memory. Speaking of the J-7G, I think awhile back I read about a 'J-7G2', I don't think this is real though since generally thats not how Chinese aircraft designations work, maybe its referring to a late batch of J-Gs with additional features

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    Re: The J-7 and older PLAAF aircraft

    I think the production of J-7G ended even before the F-7BG.

    If the improvement is minor, using a designation like J-7G1 or G2 might be possible. If the improvement is relatively greater, it may deserve a new letter, though H is already taken. The next letter would be I.

    I think CAC is just hurting itself trying to push a BVRAAMed J-7 if they can better sell J-10s or JF-17s to the PLAAF.
    "Lets do a thermal sweep."

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