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J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

This is a discussion on J-20... The New Generation Fighter III within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; The old thread got too long. Please continue all J-20 related discussions, news, etc. on this thread. Link to the ...

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    J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    The old thread got too long. Please continue all J-20 related discussions, news, etc. on this thread.

    Link to the old thread: J-20... The New Generation Fighter II
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    I really wish the guys at CAC took good pictures of the J-20 doing rolls and turning manoeuvres during the 4th and 5th flight. We could put a lot of this B.S. to rest had we gotten good footages.
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Sorry guys but IMO this discussion on FCS, maneouvrability .... and the comparison of Western to Russian air show performances leading even further to guessworks, if the J-10 or J-20 can do the same and if this is good or bad should be continuued in a seperate tread but not in the J-10 or J-20-treads which should be related to news.

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    I just found that at the "Secret-Projects Forum" but I can't say anything about its reliability ...


    中国WS15发动机简介

    涡扇15(WS15) 牌号 涡扇15 命名 “峨眉” 涡扇发动机用途 军用涡扇发动机类型 涡轮风扇喷气发动机国家 中国 总设计师 江和甫 研制单位 中国燃气涡轮研究院 生产厂商 西安发动机公司/贵州黎阳航空发动机公司装机对象 WS-15-10用于J-10M(出口型) WS-15-13 J-13单发常规布局腹部DSI进气的隐身歼击机. WS-15-CJ用于某在研的垂直降落/短距起飞的歼击机. (CJ是垂直起降歼击机的Chuizhiqijiang Jianjiji字母第一个简写) WS-15X用于双发单座的重型隐身战斗机的领先试飞.
    中俄于1992年春天开始展开艰苦谈判,在经过3年的拉锯之后,因为俄罗斯的经济状况很差,用于军工科研的 经费很少很少,又因为在92年明斯克马丘丽莎会议雅克-141被终止后, P-79发动机没有了使用对象,又没有其他的战斗机使用此发动机,所以“联盟”航空发动机科研生产联合体(原图 曼斯基发动机设计局)的经济状况很差,在这种状况下,1995年6月,中俄签订了转让P-79发动机生产许可证的协定,1996年8月,俄罗斯的“联盟”航空发动机科研生产联合体(原图曼斯基发动 机设计局)向中国方面交付了P-79发动机的全套设计图纸及技术资料,特别是引进了制造P-79发动机核心机的生产设备及生产制造工艺资料.遗憾的是用于雅克-141的P-79B-300发动机矢量喷管技术却没有得到,当时是作为某垂直起降歼击机的涡扇发动机进行预研,可是这种垂直起降 歼击机同很多中国以前研制的飞机一样。(后来,1998年亚洲金融危机时俄罗斯经济也陷入多重危机,中国此 时不仅购买了用于雅克-141的P-79B-300发动机矢量喷管技术,同时也取得了莫斯科联盟航空发动机科技集团研制的推力为20吨的R179-300发动机设计方案和P-79M的设计图纸和技术资料。R179-300发动机这台发动机是为垂直起飞歼击机雅克141研制的R-79V-300发动机的进一步发展。) 在这种背景下,1996年初,江和甫协同刘大响院士负责组织“九五”国防重大背景(垂直起降歼击机的计划) 的预研项目——某新型涡扇发动机(以P-79发动机为基础进行深度开发)关键技术预研工作,测绘仿制 P-79发动机的核心机,组织完成了 P-79发动机的高压压气机、燃烧室、涡轮三大核心部件等比例的测绘仿制的工作.进行理论方法、计算方法和试验 方法的探索研究;以突破先进部件关键技术为主,重点围绕三大高压部件等比例全尺寸试验件的工程设计和试制及 试验以及其相关的强度、控制等系统进行综合应用研究,在三大核心部件的测绘仿制中,大胆倡导采用了航空动力 许多前沿设计技术成果和大量应用新材料、新工艺,从而突破了120余项关键技术。 624所在取得了莫斯科联盟航空发动机科技集团研制的推力为20吨的R179-300发动机设计方案和P-79M的设计图纸和技术资料后, 研制了YWH一30—27核心机,YWH一30—27核心机就是以P-79发动机核心机为基础进行深度开发的.CJ-2000是以YWH一
    30—27核心机为基础进一步开发的, WS-15是CJ-2000的型号研制的代号. (CJ是垂直起降歼击机的Chuizhiqijiang Jianjiji字母第一个简写,2000是项目开始研制的时间是2000年) 1999年国庆节后, 624所参照R179-300和P-79M的发动机设计方案,推出了以YWH一30—27核心机为基础的改进设计方案, 在争夺下一代战斗机歼-13的发动机时,获得胜利,,2000年初正式被选定为歼-13单发常规布局腹部DSI进气的隐身歼击机飞机的动力装置。编号为WS-15. 命名“峨眉” 涡扇发动机.上级要求“WS-15”发动机的研制要全面贯彻新的国军标GJB241-87“航空涡轮喷气和涡轮风扇发动机通用规范和全面贯彻发动机结构完整性大纲。同时决定将WS-15的研制分为三个阶段实施:即三大高压性能部件研制与核心机研制、验证机和原型机的研制。至此W S-15正式立项研制,这是我国首次遵循“基础研究-关键技术突破-先进部件-核心机-验证机-型号研制”这一发展模式所开展的涡扇发动机研制工作,因此可以说是具有里程碑式的意义!全面研制工作于20 00年初开始.(所以中推于1997年获准开展整机验证机研制,于1999年因经费原因被迫中止。其实是为 WS-15让路而下马,而不是因为WS10发动机或因经费原因) 从日前召开的中国燃气涡轮研究院(624所)工作会上获悉,我国自行研制的推力推重比为9的涡轮风扇航空发 动机的核心机CJ2000于2005年4月14日首次点火成功后, 推重比为9的涡轮风扇航空发动机的核心机已于2005年7月上旬在台架运转试车时,各种性能完全达到了设计 指标,转速推到地面最高转速(换算转速102.2%)-----“峨眉”航空发动机的技术验证机在2006年5月首次台架运转试车成功。这标志着我国在自主研制航空发动机 的道路上又实现了历史性跨越,在研制我国第四代中型战斗机的征程上迈出了坚实的重大一步。2007年3月原 形机首次台架运转试车成功,预计,2009年6月“峨眉”发动机的原型机将完成FRET(飞行前鉴定试验阶 段),2009年6月底随J-13首飞成功.为祖国60周年献汤一份厚礼.预计2013年3月发动机完成设计定型试验. 2014年7月生产型发动机定型, 装“峨眉”航空发动机的第四代单发中型战斗机(可能编号J-13)将于2013年具备初步作战能力。 按照飞机任务要求,“峨眉”航空发动机在循环参数选择上采用较高的涡轮进口温度、中等总增压比和比较低的涵 道比。采用的新技术主要有损伤容限和高效率的宽弦叶片、三维粘性叶轮机设计方法、整体叶盘结构的风扇和压气 机、单晶气冷涡轮叶片、粉末冶金涡轮盘、刷式封严、树脂基复合材料外涵机匣、整体式加力燃烧室设计、陶瓷基 复合材料喷管调节片、三元矢量喷管和具有故障诊断和状态监控能力的双余度式全权数字式电子控制 系统。 发动机由10个单元体组成。

    “峨眉”涡扇发动机结构和系统进 气 口 环形,进气机匣为全钛结构。带18个可变弯度的进口导流叶片,其前部为径向支板,后部为可调部 分, 前缘则以来自高压压气机的空气防冰. 风扇 3级轴流式。宽弦实心钛合金风扇叶片。第1级风扇叶片采用宽弦设计,风扇叶片可拆换,带有中间凸台。第2和 第3级风扇为用线性摩擦焊技术焊接成的整体叶盘结构。风扇机匣是整环结构,风扇转子作成可拆卸的,即第2级 盘前、后均带鼓环,分别与第1、3级盘连接。增压比约为4.01。3级静子和转子均为三维流设 计. 高压压气机 6级轴流式。增压比7.16。前3级转子为整体叶盘结构,是在锻坯上用电化学加工出来的。后3级转子叶片通 过燕尾形榫头与盘连接。前3级静子叶片材料为钛合金。转子为电子束焊和螺栓连接的混合结构,采用三维流技术 设计。静子部分,进口导流叶片和第1、2级静子叶片为可调,前3级盘用高温钛合金制成,第2级盘前、后均带 鼓环,分别与第1、3级盘连接。第4~ 6级盘由镍基高温合金粉末冶金制成,用电子束焊焊为一体,用长螺栓前与第3级盘连在一起. 钛合金整体中介机匣和对开的压气机机匣, 设有孔探仪窥孔,用以观察转子和其他部件。

    燃烧 室 短环式。火焰筒采用激光打孔的多孔结构进行冷却. 火焰筒为整体双层浮壁式结构,外层为整体环形壳体,采用双通路喷嘴,燃油经22个双锥喷嘴和22个小涡流杯 喷出并雾化,实现无烟燃烧,具有均匀的出口温度场。高压涡轮 单级轴流式。采用国内第二代单晶涡轮叶片材料、隔热涂层和先进冷却结构。单级轴流式,不带冠。采用气膜冷却 加冲击冷却方式。转子叶片和导向器叶片材料均为国内第二代单晶材料,叶身上有物理气相沉积的隔热涂层。机匣 内衬扇形段通过冷却空气进行叶尖间隙控制。转子叶片和导向器可单独更换。涡轮部件采用单元体结构设计,由涡 轮转子、导向器、涡轮机匣、涡轮后机匣和轴承机匣等五个组件组成。低压涡轮 单级轴流式。与高压转子对转。空心气冷转子叶片,带冠。转子叶片均可单独更换,导向器叶片可分段更换。仍然 采用了低压涡轮导向器。低压涡轮轮盘中心开有大孔,以便安装高压转子的后轴承(中介轴承). 加力燃烧室 整体式。采用径向火焰稳定器。火焰稳定器由1圈“V”形中心火焰稳定器与36根径向稳定器组成。径向稳定器 用风扇空气冷却. 加力筒体采用阻燃钛合金以减轻重量,筒体内作有隔热套筒,两者间的缝隙中流过外涵空气对筒体进行冷却,中心 环形火焰稳定器沿圆周做成12段,可以自由膨胀,整套火焰稳定器可以在发动机装在飞机上的条件 下进行更换, 尾 喷 管 全程可调收敛-扩张式,采用三元矢量喷管,在俯仰方向可作±25°偏转。从+25°到-25°的行程中只需1.5秒钟。用于调整飞机俯仰飞行姿态。装有先进的陶瓷基复合材料的尾喷管调节片 . 控制系统 推力和矢量由双余度全权限数字电子控制系统控制(FADEC),按风扇转速和核心机压比调节发动机工作,有 故障隔离功能。【技术数据】最大加力推力(daN) 16186.5 中间推力(daN) 10522 加力耗油率(kg/daN/h) 2.02 中间耗油率(kg/daN/h) 0.665 推重比 8.86 空气流量(kg/s) 138 涵道比 0.382 总增压比 28.71 涡轮进口温度(℃) 1477 最大直径(mm) 1.02 长度(mm) 5.05 质量(kg) 1862.3
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    J-20 Mighty Dragon pictorial potpourri













    [Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the pictures.]
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    I just found that at the "Secret-Projects Forum" but I can't say anything about its reliability ...



    Deino
    Hopefully somebody can translate this huge wall of text for the rest of us!
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    I just found that at the "Secret-Projects Forum" but I can't say anything about its reliability ...

    Deino
    Can anyone help with a summary or translation besides this "BING-translation" ??


    Introduction to Chinese WS15

    Turbofan 15 (WS15) grade turbofan 15 named "Fabri" military turbofan engines use Turbo-fan Jet engine turbofan engine type Chief Designer Jiang Hefu national China Research Institute of China gas turbine manufacturer Xian machine engine company/Li Yang Guizhou aviation engine company object WS-15-10 for J-10M (export) WS-15-13 J-13 single general layout of abdominal DSI intake stealth fighter. WS-15-CJ for a study of vertical/short take off landing fighter. (CJ is Chuizhiqijiang Jianjiji letter of the first vertical take off and landing fighter shorthand) WS-15X for double-billing of heavy lead flight test of the stealth fighter.
    In the Russia Yu 1992 spring began expand hard negotiations, in after 3 years of saw zhihou, because Russia of economic status is difference, for military research of funding rarely rarely, and because in 92 Minsk maqiulisha meeting ya grams-141 was terminated Hou, P-79 engine no has using object, and no other of fighter using this engine, so "Union" aviation engine research production Consortium (original Paul mansky engine shejiju) of economic status is difference, in this status Xia, June 1995, in the Russia signed has transfer P-79 engine production license of agreement, August 1996, Russia of "Union" aviation engine research production Consortium (original Paul mansky engine shejiju) to China aspects delivery has P-79 engine of full design drawings and the technology information, especially introduced has manufacturing P-79 engine core machine of production device and the production manufacturing technology information. regrets of is for ya grams-141 of P-79B-300 engine vector nozzle technology is no are, then is as a vertical landing fighter of vortex fan engine for pre-inquiry, but this vertical landing fighter with many China yiqian development of aircraft as. (Later, in 1998 when the Asian financial crisis Russia economy were also multiple crises, China not only purchased for ya-g-141 P-79B-300 engine nozzle technology, but also made the Moscow Union of Aero-Engine technology group developed the thrust of 20 tons of R179-300 engine design and P-79M design drawings and technical data. R179-300 engine is the engine for vertical takeoff fighter Jacques 141 research and further development of the R-79V-300 engine. ) In this background Xia, 1996 early, River and Fu collaborative Liu Da ring academician is responsible for organization "95" Defense major background (vertical landing fighter of plan) of pre-inquiry project--a new Vortex fan engine (to P-79 engine for Foundation for depth development) key technology pre-inquiry work, surveying and mapping imitation P-79 engine of core machine, organization completed has P-79 engine of high pressure pressure gas machine, and combustion chamber, and turbine three large core part, proportion of surveying and mapping imitation of work. for theory method, and calculation method and test method of exploration research; to breakthrough advanced part key technology mainly, focus around three large high pressure part, proportion full size test pieces of design and trial and the test to and related of strength, and control, system for comprehensive application research, in three large core part of surveying and mapping imitation in the, bold advocate used has aviation power many frontier design technology results and large application new material, and new technology, to breakthrough has more than 120 more than item key technology.

    624 made the Moscow Union of Aero-Engine technology group developed the thrust of 20 tons of R179-300 engine design and P-79M design drawings and technical information, development YWH 130-27 core machine, YWH 130-27 core engine is based on the P-79 engine core engine as the basis for the further development of. CJ-2000 is based on YWH
    30-27 core engine as the basis for further development, development WS-15 is the CJ-2000 version of code. (CJ is vertical landing fighter of Chuizhiqijiang Jianjiji letter first a shorthand, 2000 is project began development of time is 2000) 1999 national day Hou, 624 by reference R179-300 and P-79M of engine design programme, launched has to YWH 130-27 core machine for Foundation of improved design programme, in compete for next generation fighter fighter-13 of engine Shi, get victory,, 2000 early official was selected for fighter-13 singles general layout abdominal DSI inlet of stealth fighter aircraft of power plant. The number is WS-15. Named "Fabri" turbofan. superior requires the "WS-15" engine development to fully implement the new military standard GJB241-87 "General specification for aviation turbine air-jet and turbofan engines and full implementation of the structural integrity of the engine framework. At the same time decided to include the development of WS-15 is divided into three phases: three high pressure development of performance parts and the core development research, develop, validate and prototype of the machine. This WS-15 project development, this is my first time to follow the "key technology breakthroughs-advanced basic research-development-model-validation machine parts-core machine" by this development model of turbofan engine development work, so it can be said to be a milestone significance! Comprehensive development work began in early 2000. (Sliding the machine validation machine was given in 1997, in 1999 due to financial reasons forced to abort. Actually is for WS-15 way and horse, and not because WS10 engine or due to funding causes) from recently held of China gas turbine Institute (624 by) work will Shang was informed that, in China itself development of thrust thrust-weight than for 9 of turbine fan aviation engine of core machine CJ2000 Yu on April 14, 2005 first ignition success Hou, thrust-weight than for 9 of turbine fan aviation engine of core machine has Yu July 2005 early in Taiwan frame running test Shi, various performance full reached has design index, speed push to ground highest speed (conversion speed 102.2%)-----"e eyebrow" aviation engine of technology validation machine in May 2006 first Taiwan frame running test success. This indicates that China's autonomous development of Aero-Engine and on the road to achieve a historic leap forward, in the development of China's fourth generation midsize fighter took a solid fundamental step on the journey. March 2007 prototype machine bench running successfully for the first time, is expected in June 2009, "Fabri" engine prototypes will complete the FRET (flight identification before the pilot phase), the end of June 2009 with J-13 first flight successful. for 60 anniversary of the motherland and offered soup gift. expected to be completed March 2013 engine design type testing. Stereotypes of July 2014 production engine, installed "Fabri" aero-engine of fourth generation single medium fighter (J-13) in 2013, with initial operational capability.

    In accordance with the aircraft mission requirements, "Fabri" choosing higher cycle parameters of aeroengine turbine inlet temperature, moderate overall pressure ratio of culvert road and lower than. Used of technology main has injury capacity limited and efficient of wide string leaves, and three dimensional viscous leaves turbine design method, and overall leaves disk structure of fan and pressure gas machine, and single crystal gas cold turbine leaves, and powder metallurgical turbine disk, and brush type seal strict, and resin base composite outside culvert machine casing, and overall type Afterburner combustion chamber design, and ceramic base composite nozzle regulation tablets, and ternary vector nozzle and has fault diagnosis and State monitoring ability of double more than of type full digital type electronic control system. Engine is composed of 10 units.
    "Fabri" structure and system of turbofan engine inlet ring, air inlet casing for all titanium structure. With 18 variable camber inlet guide vanes, the front for radial support plate, rear adjustable parts, edge is to air from the high pressure compressor ice. Fan 3-stage axial-flow. Wide-chord fan blades of solid titanium alloy. 1th stage fan blades with the wide chord design, removable fan blades, with a middle boss. 2nd and 3rd stage fan to simple linear friction welding technology of welding into a blisk structure. Fan casing is a ring structure, the fan rotor made of removable, the 2nd-level disc front and rear with drum loops, and respectively, 1th disk connectivity. Boost almost 4.01. 3-level design of stator and rotor are three-dimensional flow. 6 stage axial-flow in high pressure compressor. Boost than 7.16. Level 3 before rotor disc structure as a whole, are forging on with electrochemical machining. 3 after stage rotor blades through Chevron rabbet and disc connection. Titanium alloy for the first 3 stationary blade material. Rotor for hybrid structure of electron beam welded and bolted, using three-dimensional flow design. Stator part of inlet guide vanes and the 1th, 2 stationary blade adjustable level 3 disk made of high-temperature titanium alloy before, both before and after the 2nd-level disk with drum loops, and respectively, 1th disk connectivity. Di4~6ji plate made from nickel-Base Superalloy powder metallurgy, electron beam welding is a body, with long bolt front and 3rd-level disk connected together. Opposite to the mediation case as a whole and for titanium alloy compressor casing, a borescope peep hole, for the observation of rotors and other parts.

    Combustion chamber short concentric type. The flame tube uses the laser drilling the vesicular structure to carry on cooling. The flame tube double-decked floats the wall type structure for the whole, the outer layer for the whole ring-like shell, uses the binary channel spray nozzle, the fuel oil spouts after 22 bipyramid spray nozzles and 22 eddy cups and atomizes, realizes the smokeless combustion, has the even export temperature field. High pressure turbine single stage axialflow type. Uses the domestic second generation of unit crystal turbine blade material, the heat insulation coating and the advanced cooling structure. The single stage axialflow type, does not bring the crown. Uses gas blanket cooling to add the impingement cooling way. The rotor blade and the stator blade material is the domestic second generation of unit crystal material, on the leaf blade has the physical gas phase deposition heat insulation coating. The engine case inside lining fan-shaped section carries on the tip clearance control through the cooling air. The rotor blade and the guide apparatus may replace alone. The turbine wheel part uses the haploid structural design, after turbine rotor, guide apparatus, turbine casing, turbine wheel the engine case and the bearing engine case and so on five modules compose. Low pressure turbine single stage axialflow type. With high-pressure spool to extension. The hollow air-cooled rotor leaf blade, brings the crown. The rotor blade may replace alone, the stator blade may partition the replacement. Still had used the low pressure turbine guide apparatus. The low pressure turbine wheel disk center opens has the pocket, with the aim of installing high-pressure spool's rear bearing (intermediary bearing). Afterburner integral type. Uses the radial direction flame stabilizer. The flame stabilizer is composed of 1 “V” the shape center flame stabilizer with 36 radial direction stablers. The radial direction stabler uses the ventilator air cooling. The thrust augmentation tube body uses is flame-resistant the titanium alloy to reduce the weight, tube in vivo does has the heat insulation sleeve, outside both's slit average crosses contains the air to carry on cooling to the tube body, the center ring-like flame stabilizer makes 12 sections along the circumference, may the free expansion, whole set flame stabilizer be possible, in the engine installs under airplane's condition carries on the replacement, the tail pipe entire journey adjustable restraining - expansion type, uses three Yuan vector nozzles, may make ±25° the deflection in the pitching direction. From +25° to - 25° the traveling schedule in only needs 1.5 seconds. Uses in adjusting the airplane pitching flight attitude. Is loaded with the advanced ceramic base compound materials tail pipe to adjust the proglottis. The control system thrust force and the vector by the double redundancy entire jurisdiction digit electronic control system control (FADEC), according to the ventilator rotational speed and the core machine-pressed ratio adjustment engine work, have the failure isolation function. [engineering data]Biggest thrust augmentation thrust force (daN) 16186.5 middle thrust force (daN) 10522 thrust augmentation oil consumption (kg/daN/h) 2.02 middle oil consumption (kg/daN/h) 0.665 thrust ratio 8.86 air flow (kg/s) 138 vectored thrust compared to 0.382 total supercharger ratio 28.71 turbine wheel intake temperature (℃) 1477 most large diameter (mm) 1.02 length (mm) 5.05 quality (kg) 1862.3
    Thanks in advance,
    Deino

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Thread open. Gentlemen. Let's have a civil discussion...ABOUT THE J-20!!

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    To all members. >>> I've asked you all to discuss the J-20 in a civil manner. Let us do so. I've deleted several post which I feel are unnecessary arguments and personal attacks. The J-20 is a very important development in Chinese military aviation. We will continue to discuss the J-20 withing the parameters of the rules of SDF.

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Here a nice summary at the CDF made by "pierrotlefou"

    Rough guesses?

    First paragraph basically says that:
    - WS-15 (named "Fabri" ?? ) is designed by Jiang Hefu of China Research Institute, a subsidiary of the gas turbine manufacturer Xian machinery company and Li Yang of Guizhou aviation engine company
    - There are four versions of the engine being developed:
    1) WS-15-10 is for the J-10M, which is the export version of J-10
    2) WS-15-13 is for J-13, a single-engined stealth fighter with an abdominal DSI intake (similar to the J-10, then)
    3) WS-15-CJ is for a VSTOL fighter under development, where CJ is abbreviation for Chuizhiqijiang Jianjiji
    4) WS-15X is to be used in a twin-engine configuration for China's stealth fighter's flight testing (implying that the engines on J-20 already are WS-15s?)
    - Negotiations for tech transfer began in Russia in 1992
    - In 1992 also, the Minsk aircraft carrier was decommissioned, resulting in termination of the Yak-141 VSTOL fighter program
    - As a result, the Tumansky R-79 engine designed specifically for use by the Yak-141 became useless, as no other plane in the world uses this engine.
    - Because of this and economic difficulties plaguing Russia, in 1995 Tumansky agreed to transfer technology for licensed production of the R-79 engine in China
    - In 1996 the full set of drawings and technical data, including tooling equipment and manufacturing processes were transfered to China
    - Unfortunately, at this time the technology for the thrust-vectoring nozzles for the R-79 engine was not transferred as well
    - However, in 1998, due to the Asian Economic Crisis affecting Russia, China was able to purchase not only the technical details of the R-79V-300 (note: Cyrillic P = R, B = V) engine's TVC nozzle, but also asked Tumansky to develop a 20-ton (19.6 kN) thrust R-179-300 engine and hand over the R-79M engine's technical data.
    - Based on this, Jiang Hefu and Liu Da started in 1996 to develop for Defense Research Institute "95" (?) an engine based on the R-79 core.
    - Rest of paragraph lists what they did and their achievements.

    On the second paragraph:
    - After 624 (Institute?) got Tumansky working on the 20-ton-thrust R-179-300 engine and R-79M, they developed the engine into the YWH 130-27 engine to be used on the CJ-2000 (presumably the VSTOL fighter design).
    - They then entered the core of the YWH 130-27 into the competition for the J-13 single-engined stealth fighter project and won.
    - This victory meant they then had to develop the the core of the YWH 13-27 into the WS-15 turbofan for the J-13 fighter program.
    - The military named the WS-15 engine "Fabri" (??) :what: and required them to design the engine based on the new military standard GJB241-87 (Guo Ji Biao ?? - came across quite a few of these in my line of work) "General specification for aviation turbine air-jet and turbofan engines and full implementation of the structural integrity of the engine framework"
    - Next the author talks about the phases of development work, but I can't figure out whether his first sentence agrees with his second sentence or he's trying to say the WS-15's development work didn't follow the standard procedure and thus had historic significance.
    - Interestingly he said that the engine validation phase started in 1997 but they were forced to abort in 1999 because of financial reasons, taking pains to state for the record that the development of the WS-10 had nothing to do with the decision to delay the WS-15 project, nor was their funding cut.
    - It turns out that on April 14, 2005 China's 624 Institute successfully performed ignition test of a turbofan engine with greater than 9 thrust-to-weight ratio - in this case the engine developed for the CJ-2000 project (YWH 130-27?).
    - By July of 2005, the Taihang (I'm assuming Taiwan is a mistranslation) platform (also?) achieved >9 TW ratio and fulfilled all its performance requirements, reaching its highest design speed (?).
    - Test of the first Taihang engine platform completed in May 2006
    - What is more interesting is that in March 2007 another engine (WS-15?) finished its prototype bench test and the author states that by the end of June 2009 the prototype J-13 had made its first flight successfully (whuddaheck? :huh and apparently someone got soup for the 60th anniversary of the PRC in October 2009 :screwy:. Hey, how come this is the first we've heard about this?
    - Anyway, the author then proceeds to confidently say that the engine development for the J-13 should be completed by March 2013, with production stereotypes ready by 2014. J-13 itself is supposed to reach IOC by 2013.

    Will continue later if no one else takes up the challenge. However, some interesting points here:

    A) There is a J-13?

    B) If the WS-15 engine is based on the R-79 and its TVC mechanism is based on that of the Yak-141, then implementation would be rather interesting. The Yak-141's TVC nozzle is the same type used on the F-35B (Lockheed also bought data from Yak) and is unique in that it can turn 105 degrees and has no axial actuators. It is actually composed of three pieces of a tube cut diagonally like this: =\=/= that rotate against each other to bend the nozzle. This design also has the advantage of being able to form a proper seal in the flow path. However, in the F-35 turning the nozzle actually requires the skin of the plane where the nozzle is enclosed to peel open. After all, this nozzle is only meant to be used to transition to and from vertical flight. How an air superiority stealth fighter is supposed to implement this in turning combat is beyond me.

    C) Who is doing the J-13? (Assuming it exists) Xian and Guizhou aviation engine companies are cooperating on the engine. Does this mean either Xian or Guizhou aircraft manufacturers will build the plane?
    Actually I have that strange feeling that there's something "fishy" ... .

    As such I would say it sounds too good (performance wise) to be true and as far as I know the WS-15 is an indigenous design - maybe with Russian assistance as some sources suggest - but not based on a Russian design.

    Deino

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    Martian's Avatar
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    Video of J-20 Mighty Dragon take-off!

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjcxNDgyMzY4.html

    The trees were in the way, but the launch time was 15 or 16 seconds (according to my stopwatch).

    [Note: Thank you to Lawxx for the video link.]
    Last edited by Martian; 05-30-2011 at 12:42 PM.

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Here a nice summary at the CDF made by "pierrotlefou"



    Actually I have that strange feeling that there's something "fishy" ... .

    As such I would say it sounds too good (performance wise) to be true and as far as I know the WS-15 is an indigenous design - maybe with Russian assistance as some sources suggest - but not based on a Russian design.

    Deino
    I agree.

    There are other holes in the story. J-10 doesn't even have WS-10 installed yet. It makes no sense to use "WS-15" for the export model.

    And the project has been on-going for a long time. Research started way before 2000. It makes no sense to use Russian design.....

    And most importantly, I believe the engine technology in China is advanced enough to be ahead of Russian now. So there is no point to borrow from an inferior technology.

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    MiG-29 is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Quote Originally Posted by johnqh View Post
    I agree.

    There are other holes in the story. J-10 doesn't even have WS-10 installed yet. It makes no sense to use "WS-15" for the export model.

    And the project has been on-going for a long time. Research started way before 2000. It makes no sense to use Russian design.....

    And most importantly, I believe the engine technology in China is advanced enough to be ahead of Russian now. So there is no point to borrow from an inferior technology.
    as far as 2011 Russia already have F-119 equivalent that has already been flown on the PAKFA: the F-135 uses technology borrowed diredtly from the YAK-141, to say it is inferior is pretty much as saying now at this moment China has a F-135 equivalent flying.

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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-29 View Post
    as far as 2011 Russia already have F-119 equivalent that has already been flown on the PAKFA: the F-135 uses technology borrowed diredtly from the YAK-141, to say it is inferior is pretty much as saying now at this moment China has a F-135 equivalent flying.
    I am not talking about max trust. Russian engines require too much maintenance and Chinese has adopted Western style standard on maintenance and engine life, which cannot be delivered with Russian tech.

  15. #15
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    Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

    I just cleaned up that tread and moved everything related to "Discussion on J-20's aerodynamics, comparison with F-22 and some "guesswork"a seperate tread located here:

    http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-...tml#post149192

    Please feel free to continue here .....

    Deino
    Last edited by Deino; 05-30-2011 at 11:02 AM.

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