J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

Yeah, this news is one that we cannot deny.

That being said, I'd want to pull some of its conclusions in dishonour.
Chinese agents were present, picking up pieces? Sure. Lots of people were. The article points it out. If I said Norwegian agents were present picking up interesting information about RAM, would that be interesting news? No.

Until China launched their own stealth jet, this was surely uninteresting news. Something most bureaus overlooked (the news was made in the late 90s!). It barely made the news! Now that China's made their jet, they suddenly collect every news bit they can related to it and say: Hey! look at this, we knew all along, and it's old.

It's about conforming news to your 早知道 (had-I-known-earlier)-viewpoint. I'd hate to say this, but this is exactly the same kind of reporting we see after each terror attack (I'm referring to the Scandinavian ones here, to not step on anyone's toes), where every paper is emphasizing how every intelligence bureau had all knowledge prior.

OK, so my point is, this is purely conforming prior events to current conclusions (Aha, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, so every action they took from the 1930s-on was leading up to a showdown with the US). And in this case I feel it's been proven that this talk about the F-117 is too outdated to give any complete awareness about stealth that would be required making this aircraft.

Originally Posted by Maggern

Yeah, this news is one that we cannot deny.

That being said, I'd want to pull some of its conclusions in dishonour.
Chinese agents were present, picking up pieces? Sure. Lots of people were. The article points it out. If I said Norwegian agents were present picking up interesting information about RAM, would that be interesting news? No.

Until China launched their own stealth jet, this was surely uninteresting news. Something most bureaus overlooked (the news was made in the late 90s!). It barely made the news! Now that China's made their jet, they suddenly collect every news bit they can related to it and say: Hey! look at this, we knew all along, and it's old.

It's about conforming news to your 早知道 (had-I-known-earlier)-viewpoint. I'd hate to say this, but this is exactly the same kind of reporting we see after each terror attack (I'm referring to the Scandinavian ones here, to not step on anyone's toes), where every paper is emphasizing how every intelligence bureau had all knowledge prior.

OK, so my point is, this is purely conforming prior events to current conclusions (Aha, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, so every action they took from the 1930s-on was leading up to a showdown with the US). And in this case I feel it's been proven that this talk about the F-117 is too outdated to give any complete awareness about stealth that would be required making this aircraft.

In other words, you're referring to hindsight bias

Of course there are those that believed that China obtained some of the wreckage and for that the embassy was bombed to destroy it even more. But none of them believed China, especially then, was capable of learning that much from it because of the same reason why so many were surprised with the emergence of the J-20. Those who believe the embassy was bombed to prevent China from learning from it aren't official from the government. The real reason they want to believe that was the case is because they don't want to believe that the US could possibly make a mistake like that. I bet a couple years from now the skeptics of the J-20 will tell everyone that they always believed China was fully capable of producing a stealth fighter.

China is simple doing what other countries,including US to obtain any info or intelligent regarding specific technology.

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

In other words, you're referring to hindsight bias

Indeed, and this article is full of it. I don't want to argue against most of these articles, though I want to say that although China at several points in the past acquired some kind of insight into some of the acknowledged realms of stealth, this knowledge couldn't wholly create a new, flyable stealth fighter. No matter it might be of other jets. It demands a ceratin amount of innovation to make all these parts work together. As has been made clear in ealer posts by others.

It is extremely unfair to claim that China's J-20 benefited significantly from the F-117's wreckage. Firstly, it should be obvious to anyone that most of the F-117's equipment was burnt to a crisp.

Secondly, the F-117's stealth was based on "faceted shaping." The J-20's design is based on the exact opposite principle of "continuous curvature." The F-117 used some sort of grille to cover its airducts. The J-20 uses a DSI bump and serpentine air-inlets to hide the engine compressor fans. The F-117 was a subsonic aircraft. In contrast, the J-20 is designed to be supersonic. The F-117 used a RAM-coated framed cockpit. The J-20 has a frameless bubble cockpit canopy.

Given the vast design and technological differences between China's J-20 and the F-117 Nighthawk, I think it's a cheap shot to claim that the J-20 is based on F-117 technology.

I would think that the only thing that China actually benefit from the F117 wreakage was the material science aspect. They might get a better gleam into what type of composition or how the structure of the material was being produced. Of course China's own knowledge and material technology must already be somewhere up there, or even with the wreakage, and samples, they will not be able to reproduce the material.

The thing about these type of articles is that they are extremely popular. First of all they are sensationalistic. Considering that most people knows next to nothing about military science it is easy for major news networks to make such exaggerated and laughable (to us military fans) claims. F-117, a subsonic attack fighter, is in no way comparable to a supersonic airsuperiority fighter like the J-20. Second of all I think it caters to the public in the sense that it confirms "Chinese inferiority". No those guys can't make anything original. They are doing well only because they've "stolen", "copied", or "reverse-engineered from us".

China rebukes claims that the J-20 is stolen technology.

J-20 stealth fighter jet 'innovative, not stolen from US plane' - China News - SINA English

Chinese defense officials and military analysts insisted Monday that the country's J-20 stealth fighter jet is a result of technological innovation, refuting a report that alleges the aircraft was developed out of technology gleaned from a downed US fighter.

A Croatian admiral who served during the Kosovo War told the AP on Sunday that China formulated the technology for its J-20 jet from a F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

"At the time, our intelligence reports told of Chinese agents criss-crossing the region where the F-117 disintegrated, buying up parts of the plane from local farmers," Admiral Davor Domazet-Loso was quoted as saying. "We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies."

An official at the Ministry of National Defense who declined to be named told the Global Times that "it's not the first time foreign media has smeared newly unveiled Chinese military technologies. It's meaningless to respond to such speculations."

China successfully debuted the J-20 in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, earlier this month. The test flight coincided with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates' visit to Beijing, but he was assured the timing was just a coincidence.

Following the successful test flight, speculations and assessments of Beijing's military advancement could be heard throughout the world.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

"Different from previous fighters such as the J-7 and J-8, which drew on the merits of aircrafts from other countries, the J-20 is a masterpiece of China's technological innovation," Xu said, comparing the stealth jet to the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor stealth jet and Russia's first stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T-50.

Xu said it would have been impossible for China to glean technology from the US' F-117, whose stealth technology lags far behind fourth-generation fighters and was regarded as "outdated" even at the time when it was reportedly shot down.

And as for the radiation-absorbent, exterior coating technology adopted by the F-117, Xu said it would be hard to copy that technology from the wreckage due to its complicated production process.

Developed in the 1970s and commencing service in 1983, the F-117 Nighthawk was the world's first stealth fighter - nearly invisible to radar.

In March 1999, during NATO's aerial bombing of Serbia in the Kosovo War, a Serbian anti-aircraft missile shot one of the Nighthawks down. An editorial published by the Taiwan-based China Times on Saturday said that the shooting down of the F-117 could have provided an excuse for Taiwan to reform its military.

Parts of the downed F-117 wreckage - including the left wing with the US Air Force insignia, the cockpit canopy, the ejection seat, the pilot's helmet and a radio - are exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum, according to an AP report.

"I don't know what happened to the rest of the plane," said Zoran Milicevic, deputy director of the museum, according to the AP. "A lot of delegations visited us in the past, including the Chinese, Rus-sians and Americans ... but no one showed any interest in taking any part of the jet."

Wang Yanan, an associate editor in chief at Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times that the F-117 could hardly have inspired the development of the J-20, due to the design differences between the two generations of fighters. He added that it is worthless to take an interest in obsolete technology for developing more state-of-art technologies.

"Despite being dubbed a stealth fighter, the F-117 functioned as a bomber because of its low speed and limited air attacking abilities, while the J-20, more resembling the F-22, is designed to have a powerful air attacking capability with a fast flying speed," Wang said.

Responding to the accusations about China's stealing of new technologies, Wang conceded that, as a forerunner for new technologies, the US can only provide a reference point for other countries but will never leak any details about the technologies, leaving many countries to develop weapons on their own or buy them from another country.

The US has, in recent years, stepped up its offensive against what it calls "Chinese tech spying." The FBI increased its agents assigned to counter alleged Chinese espionage from 150 in 2001 to more than 350 in 2007, USA Today reported.

Separately, Noshir Gowadia, an Indian-born former B-2 bomber engineer convicted of helping China design a stealth cruise missile, was due to be sentenced in court today.

Li Daguang, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times that such accusations are groundless and originate from envy and wariness of China's technological advancements.

"China not only has the freedom to develop high-end technologies but also the capability to develop them independently," he said.

Latest rumors. PLAAF sent the planes to Yanliang for testing. Better watch out for more updates soon!

http://www.fy js.cn/bbs/read.php?tid=307503&page=2 (remove space to see the link)

Originally Posted by airsuperiority

They just won't resist any chance to be ignorant...oops I mean "delivering the truths"

I do think that the Chinese may have gotten hold of some samples for studying in the early years of the project's development, but I quite believe the stealth technology used on the J-20 today is made in China, developed indigenously in China, and can only be found in China. What I mean is that while stealth tech was prioneered by the US, I'd believe the Chinese developed its own stealth technology that has its own design, characteristics, that would make it unique on its own. In other words, its own industry. Therefore it's fallible and ignorant to say it copied off something else. We can't say Linux copied Windows just because they have similar interface, or that Andriod is a copy of Iphone because both are smart phones. Each of them are their own brands, with their own technology and approaches. Monkeys really do run the tabloids in mass newspaper outlets all over the world.

Well said... Even if this J-20 wont be operational, the Chinese will use this platform for future stealth fighter projects. The west said how unpleasant the J-20 is due to the fact of sour grape. The US used decades to develop its F22 and F35 but the Chinese used half that amount of time and pricing of unit costs cut by half. Each country has her own pool of talents and we cant say whatever the Chinese made is not that 'up to standards'.

Btw, I have seen some Chinese webs leaking that SAC is doing a J-16 Slient Flanker.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

China rebukes claims that the J-20 is stolen technology.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me, I dont see any characteristics of F-117 on the J-20. The F-117 features a sliding fuselage up to the tail fins but the J-20 doesnt show this characteristics. Another is the F-117 is quite unique in shape such as the design is angular in shape such that it is a 'flying triangle' but the J-20 is not design in this way. To be said 'stolen' I think is way too much and even if the Chinese could buy the downed F-117 parts on open market, it is termed as study. It is due to the unsucessfully recovery of the USAF to recover them. What the Chinese did is to study the parts in my humble opinion.

Can we discuss on the possible weapon systems on J-20 instead?

Originally Posted by siegecrossbow

The thing about these type of articles is that they are extremely popular. First of all they are sensationalistic. Considering that most people knows next to nothing about military science it is easy for major news networks to make such exaggerated and laughable (to us military fans) claims. F-117, a subsonic attack fighter, is in no way comparable to a supersonic airsuperiority fighter like the J-20. Second of all I think it caters to the public in the sense that it confirms "Chinese inferiority". No those guys can't make anything original. They are doing well only because they've "stolen", "copied", or "reverse-engineered from us".

To be able to 'reverse-enginneered' is also a great achievement... Didnt the Russians or I meant the Soviet reverse-enginnered the B-29 Super Fortress into Tupolev Tu-4...

J-20 is not exactly the combinations of F-22 & PAK 50.