SinoDefence Forum

tphuang

yeah, J-10 pretty much has mkk beat on every category in a2a combat.
better manuverability
better a2a radar
smaller RCS
better AAM (SD-10 over R-77)

The only thing J-10 trails in is payload and range. Those are not that critical for a2a combat. That's why you see China is stationing the first J-10 regiment near India. It knows su-30mkks can handle the mkis.

As for su-32/34, it's on one of the recent Kanwa articles that China is trying to develop an upgraded attacker (JH-8 I guess?) with su-32/34's capability.

MIGleader

the j-10 is nto proven to have more manuverability than flankers. it is merely claimed by chengdu, which made the j-10. better a2a radar? the mkk can trak 10, the j-10 can trak 2. the new radar is not out yet, and neither is pl-12

the mkis will kick the chinese af ass unless china can get soemthing equally advanced or more(the su-35bm!)

tphuang

That claim was made by people who saw J-10 fight against su-30mkk and by plaaf officials and published on a widely read Chinese military aviation magazine.

As for radar, J-10 tracks 15/engages 6. mkk tracks 10/engages 4.

think about it this way:
J-10 beat su-27 5:0 in plaaf's own internal mock fights in spite of the fact that su-27 pilots have been flying their planes for much longer than the J-10 pilots. I'm pretty sure J-10 pilots were not equipped with SD-10 missiles yet in those fights.

trkl

I know that there is a JH-7b being developed, which is supposed to be a pretty major upgrade over the jh-7a. Could this be the project Kanwa was talking about?

When the klj-3 was first publically displayed, it was claimed to have 150km range, and capability to track 15 and engage 4. The next time it was displayed it claimd to be able to engage 6-8 due to a software upgrade. In either case, it should be better than the mkk radar, which really isn't that good.

tphuang

yeah, my bad. You are right, it's JH-7B
yeah, KLJ-3 went through several upgrades. It was first developed in 1997 and is still developing. Who knows, maybe the current version is already PAR. That would be much better than N001VE's radar, which isn't even SAR.

sino52C

I think the JH-7B may be a SU-24 at best. It will not match the better fighter and aerodynamic characteristics of the SU-32/34 series.

A chinese SU-32/34 may be a good option. It can match and beat anything in Japan, Taiwan, India, and even the US in certain aspects. Only problem would be cost, I'm not sure whether I want to see 3-4 JH-7s vs. a single SU-34.

trkl

I think you are underestimating the jh-7b. The upgrade from jh-7 to jh-7a was pretty big, jh-7 had 6.5 tons of payload at most while fbc-1m (downgraded export version of jh-7a) has a payload of 9 tons. I have been hearing that the jh-7b is supposed to be an even bigger upgrade over the jh-7a than the jh-7a was over the jh-7. Apparently jh-7b features more advanced materials and has reduced rcs. I think we should wait and see what JH-7b actually looks like before we assume that it is a terrible aircraft.

tphuang

the main issue with JH-7A is still it's thrust. It is using a turbofan engine, but the thrust is just not up there. I'm guessing JH-7A is supposed to match the performance of su-24. I'm sure it does, but the question is which version of su-24?

As for JH-7B, it is designed to be as good as su-34. Who knows if it will get there. I personally think China should get some su-34s if the Russians are willing to sell them to us. I doubt it, but let's wait a couple of years. They are already offering us su-33 and su-35bm, so the fullbacks can't be that far away.

That article

http://www.kanwa.com/dnws/showpl.php?id=68
Kanwa’s sources indicate that China has started seriously studying the structure of Russian Su32 fighter-bomber. The video footage released by China’s No.1 Aviation Group revealed that China has manufactured an aircraft model strikingly similar to Su32. Structural testing is now under way. As for the background of this fighter-bomber development, China has already started the production of JH7A. But JH7A after all belongs to the technology and the design concept of 1970s. Thus, the R&D of post-JH7A is possible.

Just for reference, there are 4 JH-7/7A regiments in service, 3 are in PLAN, 1 in PLAAF



If that's not enough to swallow, check this:
Is This New?

中俄联合造飞豹III性能超SU-34

中国最新型的战斗轰炸机“飞豹―III”型是在原机型的基础上，换装了一对和我国歼―11战斗机一样的仿俄 AL―31F小涵道比涡扇发动机，最大推力77千牛，加力推力为122.5千牛，从以前的最高速度 1.8Mach增加到2.2Mach，所以新型机才改大了进气口；同时，新型机增加了空中加油系统，作战半 径：从原本的1650公里增加到2500公里（两次加油），最大航程：3300公里增加到5600公里（两 次加油），主要武器：两门23mm机炮，12个外挂点。载弹量7000Kg，可挂载两枚近程空对空导弹ＰＬ ――５Ｂ、四枚射程一百二十公里的鹰击八号二型(Ｃ――８０２)
反舰导弹，在对地攻击作战方面，则可携带空对地巡航导弹和航空炸弹，或带两枚“航空核炸弹”。
　　
FB-2000远程重型歼击轰炸机是中国空军明智的选择

　　随着美国对中国围追堵截日趋平凡，中国领导人感到了战争的压力。为了维护国家的主权和领土完整，中国军 方领导层明确提出了：“做好打赢局部战争的必要准备，建立一支攻防兼备的空中武装力量，拒敌于国门之外，歼 敌于千里之外。”的作战指导思想。

　　未来战争中，攻击是最好的防备。而担任空中攻击任务的轰炸机正好是中国空中武装力量最薄弱环节。军委领 导痛下决囊？⒄姑嫦?1世纪新型轰炸机，从根本上全面提高中国的空中打击力量，以适应未来战争 的需要。

　　选择什么样的机型作为新一代主力轰炸机？成为当时上至军委领导，下至飞行员和设计人员共同关心的焦点。 其间各部门提出了数十种意见和方案。有提出从乌克兰等国购买现役轰炸机的“短平快”方案；有提出完全独立自 主研发的“自主派”方案；也有提出仿制前苏联的TU-26的“仿制派”等方案。

　　“短平快”购买方案，不能从根本上提高中国的整体空中打击力量。“自主派”研发方案，虽然研发机构全力 支持，但生产工厂对完全自主开发的产品能否成功持保留态度。“仿制派”是一个研发机构和工厂都可接受的方案 ，但军方对仿制的机型是否能够满足未来战争的需要却持怀疑态度。

　　例如，当年研发机构曾拿出过J-9等多个研发的战机项目。但是，工厂却因没有参照的样机和资料等原因不愿承接。工厂要求军方保证负担全部开 发费用和承包生产出来的产品。工厂担心一旦因设计上的缺陷使战机性能达不到设计要求，产品没人要的话，十余 万人的工厂在市场经济的浪潮下怎样生存？工厂希望仿制已搞到样机和图纸的前苏联MIG-23战机，保证两年左右样机开发成功。而军方认为MIG-23已经落伍，再投入巨大力量仿制不合时宜。而研制军方需要的战机，工厂又没把握。结果导致一系列当时设计 较为先进的战机方案流产。

　　当年，中国没有具有实际作战能力的战术轰炸机，更缺乏具有远程作战能力的战略轰炸机。中国的国力有限， 航空工业基础薄弱，只能优先发展一种新型轰炸机。究竟选择战术还是战略轰炸机？又是一个难以选 择的问题？

　　军委领导为了避免重蹈覆辙，明确提出“先进，实用，稳妥，经济”的八字方针。综合各种因素后将未来新一 代轰炸机定位于：远程/重型/歼击-轰炸机。要求具有未来歼击机（战斗机）的自卫能力和格斗能力；具有远程攻击能力；具有大载弹量攻击能力；制 造难度小和价格适宜，可大量装备部队的歼击/轰炸两用(一机多型)战机。

　　为了解决制造难度小和保障成功性。军方将实行了“自主开发”和“引进+联合开发”两条腿走路的万全之策 。当时在中国多个机构有多个可行性方案正在紧张进行。时逢中国意外从乌克兰和俄罗斯获得很多正在寻找饭碗的 航空专家。其中有前苏联时期下马的T-4MS轰炸机开发人员和参加研制SU-34歼击轰炸机的人员。拿出了较为可行的“T-4MS缩小型”方案和“SU-34放大型”方案。

　　T-4MS是前苏联“苏霍伊设计局”设计的新一代战略轰炸机。而SU-34又是“苏霍伊设计局”在SU-27基础上开发（并由SU-32FN改进而来）的一种重型歼击- 轰炸机。中国军方看中了SU-34的先进的突防和生存能力，又看中了T-4MS的远程作战能力和巨大的载弹能力。最终选择了取长补短的“T-4MS+SU -34二者结合型”方案。其研发代号为FB-2000型。

　　由于美国和俄罗斯将未来战机的方向确定为具有低空超音速隐形突防能力上。实际上已经解密和放弃（减少生 产数量）现已公布的美国F-22和俄罗斯的SU-34及S-37等战机.再加上当时俄罗斯在国内经济濒临破产的情况下，为了渡过暂时的难关，俄罗斯希望加入中国新一代 FB-2000的开发项目中。由于这两款机均是由苏霍伊设计局开发的，再加上T-4MS和SU-34的样机保存完好，特别是在发动机和火控系统方面中国也难以在短期内有较大的突破。为了确保FB-2000的成功性，中国同俄罗斯（包括部分乌克兰机构）经过多年艰苦谈判，在中俄最高领导的干预下，达成了 联合开发FB-2000的合作协议。

FB-2000是中国为了完成向攻防兼备型空军的需要，为了弥补中国空军缺乏远程攻击能力，缺乏新型轰炸机，缺乏 加油机和缺乏海外空军基地等薄弱环节，而提出的一种具有远程轰炸能力又具有自我防卫能力的远程对地对海双重 多用途重型战斗轰炸机（并非战略轰炸机，只能算轻型战术轰炸机）。在俄罗斯拉中国联合开发SU-34时，中国针对俄罗斯苏霍伊经济困境，急需中国在SU-27和SU-30等战机的定单和新项目开发费用等特殊情况下，提出了联合开发FB-2000方案，中国承担主要研发费用，但FB-2000 的知识产权属于中国（而不是向SU-27和SU-30只得到授权组装）。FB-2000比SU-30和SU-34航程更远，载弹量更大，而且具有机内载弹能力，隐形突防能力和2倍以上超音速巡航能力。目前该项目进展 顺利。

Chairman Hu

1.) Whats the link for this?
2.) If the JH-7B can carry 9+ ton in payload, then that IS quite of an upgrade from the original version, but thrust is still the biggest problem, China WILL solve that, and btw, the divisions of JH-7B is stilling using the cruddy RR engines?
3.) If the Jian-10 can beat the 30MKK and the 27SK, there is NO point for China to base the Jian-11B on those the models, since the J-10 can do better and it is almost finalized, carnads and radar isnt gonna automatically inprove the plane, China needs a better frame to base it on, although the SKM is our best lead (since the mockup model carried anti-ship missiles), and Russia most likely NOT let China base it on the Su-35, China needs to pull something out of her hat to pull off this one, I mean, even the US is getting the JSF by 2010, TVC might be an option, but I dont think itz likely, btw, is there a plane that can match the MKI move for move?

JH-7B... whoa 9ton+ in payload, there really isnt a pont for China do built a version similiar to the Su-34 based on the new J-11B's, just give the JH-7B better radars and tracking systems

MIGleader

the original jh-7 could only handle five tons cause they used hand-me-down speys. the ws-9 supposedly had a small-medium increase in weight carrying ability, but 9 tons is redicoulous. the jh-7b mya be able to do 9 tons. a also hope the chinese can fit a close range ground attack radar on and armor the cocpit. anyone got a good site for jh-7b development?

trkl

The switch from speys to WS-9 wasn't the only change between JH-7 and JH-7a. There were also significant changes to the airframe which have made it lighter and increased the number of hardpoints. 9,000kg may seem rediculous, but that is what the manufacturer of the aircraft says that FBC-1m can carry.

I remember reading a pretty good article on the JH-7/a/b development, but I can't find it now.

tphuang

I believe the current payload for JH-7A is 6.5 tonne. I doubt it can do better than that when each WS-9 only has 10 kN of thrust. The change in airframe helped, but it's not that significant.

The idea with JH-7B is that it will be using AL-31F (hopefully WS-10A in the future) to power it, so greater thrust.

I found that article on CDF, the other guy didn't post a link, so I don't know where it's from.

As I've said before, J-10 is finished, it has one operational regiment and another regiment in FTTC. It's J-11B that is not finished. I personally think J-11B is needed, because otherwise SAC would still be producing J-8F all day. I can't stand that thought. While SAC has its connections with plaaf, it will be able to produce all the garbage that it has been producing for the last 50 years.

I'm not sure, I get a feeling if China does buy su-35, it will be involved quite a bit in the structure of su-35, even if it doesn't get ToT. Considering J-11B has incorporated certain things from mkk, I figure it would keep on incorporating things from any new flanker that it sees. I personally think Russia learnt its lesson from the indigenization of su-27 and will not give China ToT ever again.

As for skm, it's supposed to be at the same level as mkk, but has that pero chip that makes the radar PAR.

tphuang

I stand corrected, this article sorts of says FBC-1m will be able to carry 9 tonne

　　最新一期简氏防卫周刊详细报导了中国空军服役的最新型JH7A改良型歼击轰炸机的细节。同时首次公开了 亚洲特派员平可夫发自杭州的确认图片。图片显示一架JH7A低空进场降落。

　　简氏防卫周刊声称在杭州的空军28强击机师开始进行例行双机编队训练﹐飞机多数没有携带武 器。

　　平可夫报导声称首批装备空军的JH7A应该使用了国产的WS9涡轮风扇发动机﹐这种来源以 于SPAY MK202技术的发动机从2002年开始实现国产化﹐迄今为止以年产30台左右的速度生产﹐中国航空工业界 的消息来源告诉JDW声称他们计划把生产速度增加一倍﹐达到年产60台的标准﹐但是若干子系统的生产仍然出 现问题因而无法跟上组装进度。

　　空军版JH7A删去了翼刀﹐拥有11个挂架﹐ 在1998年珠海航空展上﹐西安飞机公司的消息来源声称改良之后的JH7A将配备JL10A多功能火控雷达 ﹐雷达上视搜索距离达到80公里﹐下视搜索距离 54 公里﹐JL10A由607 研究所研制﹐X波段﹐具有11 种工作模式﹐可以同时跟踪4个空中目标。上视跟踪距离40公里﹐下视跟踪距离 32公里。607所还为JH7A研制了Blue-Sky低空导航吊仓。Blue-Sky的地形追踪间隙高度60-400米﹐地形追踪雷达探测距离15公里 ﹐前视红外探测距离10公里﹐重量200公斤﹐可以使JH7A以时速900公里﹐进行60米低空的地形跟踪 飞行。但是目前阶段JH7A似乎没有装备低空导航吊舱。JH7A的后座舱安装了3台多功能显示器﹐前座舱为 两台多功能显示器。。

　　在武器系统方面﹐JH7A可以整合中国和俄罗斯生产的精确制导武器。中国获得了俄式27N激光制导炸弹 寻的器﹐并且自己生产俄式激光制导炸弹。YJ91/Kh31P反辐射导弹也在在中国生产﹐此外﹐一种类似 Kh29T那样的电视制导炸弹寻的器已经在成都完成开发﹐部份精确打击武器可能还在处于最后开发阶段﹐因此 目前阶段的训练主要侧重在操纵﹑编队﹑仪俵等。空对空导弹可能会统一换装空军已经大量使用的P L8。

　　2003年在巴黎航空展上展出了JH7A的出口模型FBC1M﹐挂架由7个增加到9个﹐最终达到11个 ﹐载重量由JH7的6.5吨增加到9吨。中国的航空机械设计人员如此表示﹐JDW获悉西安飞机公司还在进一 步改良JH7A歼击轰炸机﹐使其过渡到JH7B的水平。



more on J-11B

I personally think some of the arguments here are a little outrageous. There is no way J-11B can be produced at 2/3 the cost of J-10. This person sounds like a big supporter of J-11B, but even he said that J-11B at best can match J-10. Other than that, the stuff on J-11B still based on su-27sk is correct. That's why I say that we don't put too much hope on this plane.
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/Get/NET/10272040116.htm
　　歼11战机工程经历了三个阶段：第一阶段购买数架俄造苏27SK战机；第二阶段引进生产线和散件组装数 架苏27SK战机（即歼11）；自主研制、升级、改进苏27SK战机（即歼11B）。歼11B战机被定位为 “打赢未来高科技条件下局部战争的重点型号”，“是党中央、国务院和中央军委的重大决策”，是党和国家赋予 沈飞的“崇高历史使命”。随着一系列技术瓶颈的成功突破，歼11B的国产化水平不断提高，其性能已远远超过 其原型机苏27SK，现已进入加速生产的“黄金时代”。当人们还在争论哪一款战机将成为21世纪前30年中 国空中力量的主力战机时，歼11B已稳坐这“第一把交椅”！理由有二：其一，歼11B战机做为国家花大气力 培植起来的重点工程，目标是完全的国产化，该项计划持续到2020年；其二，歼11B的价格比歼10便宜许 多，据说还不到歼10的三分之二，且歼11B技术成熟，性能并不输了歼10，一些新的技术也可以不断应用于 歼11B的升级改造，更有利于大量生产、列装。

　　那么，网友们自然要问：歼11B的性能究竟如何呢？

　　业内人士评价一架战机的性能有“三分”之说：一分为机体——气动外形，一分为航电系统（武器系统尚在其 次），一分为飞机的“心脏”——航空发动机。苏27的机动性能是尽人皆知、闻名天下的，这首先得益于其优秀 的气动外形，加上中国在现代战机气动方面多年的心得、经验，而且大量应用了包括钛合金在内的新型材料，相信 新出炉的歼11B机动性能更胜一筹。中国军工对原型机的航电设备动了更大的手术，全新设计研制的综合航电系 统居于国内领先，三位一体的 PD雷达、光电雷达、头盔瞄准系统协同工作，大大提高了超视距空战能力，更为有意义的是摆脱了原型机在武器 选择上（单一的空战能力和俄式装备）的局限性，综合战力得到极大提高。“心脏病”是国产战机的通病，歼11 B上原先的AL—31F是否被更换为国产化型号，这一点贝贝不得而知，但中国军工对AL— 31F做了改造却是不争的事实，请看《中国航空报》的相关报道：

　　“马健总师，负责着重点型号某新型发动机的科研试飞工作，工作的难度超出他的想象。然而，不管多艰难， 他都时刻以共产党员的坚强和刚毅顽强拼搏着，常为解决一个技术难题，连续昼夜作战。在排除某新型发动机，空 中经常出现异常响声的故障攻关中，马健和王艳平绞尽脑汁，寻找突破口。他们认真仔细分析发动机在空中所出现 20多次异常响声的数据曲线，一条线一条线的排查，一个点一个点的分析。经过了十多个昼夜的反复琢磨，通过 与院内外技术专家和参研单位的会诊，终于找到了问题产生的原因，并提出了科学合理的改进措施。”最近在国产 航空发动机领域捷报频传，贝贝坚信在不久的将来性能优异的国产航空发动机一定会使中国战机如虎 添翼的。

　　最近一期的《航空世界》杂志对歼11B作了图文报道，题目是《宝剑锋从磨砺出》，文中写到 ： “作为我国空军现役的主力战机，某型战斗机的国产化一直是国人关注的重点。经过近10年的不懈技术探索和试 验，该机的国产化终于迎来了一个新里程碑。国产化的过程，实际就是对该机进行升级改进和本土化的过程，机载 航电、武器、火控系统均改进为国产装备，提高了系统的维护必以及兼容性，同时也大大提高了飞机的产量。”这 是对中国歼11B战机最好的总结！

trkl

The Su-27smk is based on the Su-27sm, which is the most advanced version of flanker that Russia's own airforce is getting. However, the smk is actually better and more advanced than the sm, since skm has pero and the Russians decided that pero was too expensive for them to get. Basically what this means is that Russia is is finally offering its best technology to China in the hopes of regaining part of the Chinese fighter market.

It will be interesting to see what the Chinese do. If they do buy the smk, then I think there is a good chance that they will buy the Su-35bm as well. However if they don't buy the smk, then it would indicate that Sukhoi has lost the Chinese market and they probably won't be able to sell any more fighters to China(or at least not until PAK-FA).

tphuang

I read about that too, it seemed like the Russians were getting this new chip on their n011vep radar and could technically call it PAR, but a further upgrade (the pero chip) was offered to plaaf to make it "more of a PAR"? It's interesting that the su-30mkks are not getting that upgrade.

Either way, if they were actually even semi-interested in getting su-27sm update (which really is just su-30mkk single seated), then they should be really interested in the bm. My current question is still about how developed bm is.

Anyhow, the only flanker I think China is getting for sure is the su-33. It was said that Cao Gangchuan had a lot of discussions with the Russians about getting these planes. I took a look at the su-33m. They seemed to be just foldable versions of su-30mkk3 that can lift off from an AC.

A little on Pero:
Pero系统


对N001V雷达的进一步发展按计划将在今年实施，力争在每个俄罗斯空军的飞行中队至少配备1到2架飞机。 新雷达将安装称为Pero（羽毛）的相控阵天线，具有同时跟踪15个目标、同时接战8个目标的能力，并将显 著提高对目标的跟踪距离。由于配备了TKS-2 （R098）加密数据链，多达16架的Su-27战斗机能被整合成一个集群使用。Pero雷达能使长机在较远的距离上跟踪较多的目标，并把目标信息传递 给其他战斗机，从而使它们能隐蔽接敌。
Pero天线由Tikhomirov NIIP设计局和Ryazan GRPZ设计和生产，具有与现有机电卡塞格伦型N001-01天线相同的机电界面和电力消耗，但是仅重85公斤，节省了30公斤重量。根据NIIP的数据，Pero 天线的价格与现有天线相当，但具备大幅提高的性能。
由于更换了雷达天线，现有Ts100处理器及其相关系统将被用于新雷达，此举可节省120公斤的重量。然而 ，将相关软件编译成C++代码的过程需要大约12个月，所以熊猫计划的终极雷达型号将不会早于2005年底 出现

track 15, engage 8, can datalink 16 su-27