SinoDefence Forum

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chairman Hu

Agree to both

By the time J-11B comes out, Chinese avionics on that plane is gonna beat the Su-35BM, but it MIGHT finish earlier for China to have a few

and for the AL-41F engine, China isnt gonna just "copy" it ya know, China is gonna learn the concept and improve it, the AL-41F even with less thrust is gonna be a great leap for engine industry in China, concept-wise

I wonder if the J-11B is gonna have the AL-41F, itd be JUSt like the Su-37!

Tell me you are kidding. Where did you even get the idea that J-11B will be an air superiority fighter? Superior to what? According to all report, it will have the a2a capability of mkk series. J-11B should start joining service soon (like in 2006/7), because the test flights with WS-10A have already been done. Here is basically what J-11B is:
1. based on the airframe of 27 and mkk
2. using WS-10A as its engine. It won't use AL-41F1, because J-11B is supposed to be all domestic
3. With the extra thrust, it will be able to carry more payload, therefore, it will be better suited for attacking missions.
4. As for avionics, the cockpit should be similar in all Chinese planes now. It should be decent. We don't know about the jamming or anti-jamming capability of the Chinese avionics. Radar is the biggest issue here. KLJ-4 should be similar in capability to KLJ-3. From what I can see, the most advanced Chinese radars are not as good as the Russian ones. If they really are PAR like some people have claimed, then they will be better than I expected.

As for al-41F1, the reason it was developed was that it was easier to expand the thrust of AL-31F rather than going straight to the specs of AL-41F. From all specs, it looks quite impressive. And let's not forget, it's 3D TVC.

As for su-35BM, it doesn't have canard, but it has other features that makes it extremely manuverable. If Zhuk-mfe is offered with su-35bm, then that would definitely be a really good radar.

MIGleader · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

Tell me you are kidding. Where did you even get the idea that J-11B will be an air superiority fighter? Superior to what? According to all report, it will have the a2a capability of mkk series. J-11B should start joining service soon (like in 2006/7), because the test flights with WS-10A have already been done. Here is basically what J-11B is:
1. based on the airframe of 27 and mkk
2. using WS-10A as its engine. It won't use AL-41F1, because J-11B is supposed to be all domestic
3. With the extra thrust, it will be able to carry more payload, therefore, it will be better suited for attacking missions.
4. As for avionics, the cockpit should be similar in all Chinese planes now. It should be decent. We don't know about the jamming or anti-jamming capability of the Chinese avionics. Radar is the biggest issue here. KLJ-4 should be similar in capability to KLJ-3. From what I can see, the most advanced Chinese radars are not as good as the Russian ones. If they really are PAR like some people have claimed, then they will be better than I expected.

As for al-41F1, the reason it was developed was that it was easier to expand the thrust of AL-31F rather than going straight to the specs of AL-41F. From all specs, it looks quite impressive. And let's not forget, it's 3D TVC.

As for su-35BM, it doesn't have canard, but it has other features that makes it extremely manuverable. If Zhuk-mfe is offered with su-35bm, then that would definitely be a really good radar.

based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIGleader

based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

here is the problem facing J-11B, it's radar is not going to be better than J-10's radar, but it's RCS is a lot bigger. As for frame, yes it is based on sk, but apparently SAC has taken the knowledge of examining mkk and improved 11B so that it's somewhere in the middle.

trkl · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIGleader

based on airframe of mkk? its still has an sk airframe. and only one seat. the su-35 bm can either hbe fitted wit canards or tvc, whatever the customer wants. the kjl-4 bettter be good. powerful radars are what china needs.

Well, the newest J-11 pics do show 12 hardpoints like Su-30mkk, rather than 10 like on the Su-30sk. It is also said to have a much higher % of composits than the Su-27sk.

I have not seen any specs for the klj-4, but I think it should compare well with the latest Russian radars. If you compare the klj-3 with N011M Bars, they have almost identicle performance. Klj-4 is supposed to be a larger, more powerful derivative of klj-3, so we can expect klj-4>klj-3 and therefore klj-4>Bars.

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkl

Well, the newest J-11 pics do show 12 hardpoints like Su-30mkk, rather than 10 like on the Su-30sk. It is also said to have a much higher % of composits than the Su-27sk.

I have not seen any specs for the klj-4, but I think it should compare well with the latest Russian radars. If you compare the klj-3 with N011M Bars, they have almost identicle performance. Klj-4 is supposed to be a larger, more powerful derivative of klj-3, so we can expect klj-4>klj-3 and therefore klj-4>Bars.

KLJ-3 has been developing for a long time. It was developed in 1997 and has been upgrading steadily since. KLJ-4 is basically derived from KLJ-3 to fit J-11. It's assumed by most analysts to have similar performances. KLJ-3 is generally considered to be the best Chinese A2A radar.

trkl · 10-24-2005

J-11 has a bigger nose than J-10, which means that it can use a larger radar antenna. If we assume that the technology in klj-4 is at least as good as the technology in klj-3, then klj-4 will deffinately have better performance, with a longer range.

Chairman Hu · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

Tell me you are kidding. Where did you even get the idea that J-11B will be an air superiority fighter? Superior to what? According to all report, it will have the a2a capability of mkk series. J-11B should start joining service soon (like in 2006/7), because the test flights with WS-10A have already been done. Here is basically what J-11B is:
1. based on the airframe of 27 and mkk
2. using WS-10A as its engine. It won't use AL-41F1, because J-11B is supposed to be all domestic
3. With the extra thrust, it will be able to carry more payload, therefore, it will be better suited for attacking missions.
4. As for avionics, the cockpit should be similar in all Chinese planes now. It should be decent. We don't know about the jamming or anti-jamming capability of the Chinese avionics. Radar is the biggest issue here. KLJ-4 should be similar in capability to KLJ-3. From what I can see, the most advanced Chinese radars are not as good as the Russian ones. If they really are PAR like some people have claimed, then they will be better than I expected.

As for al-41F1, the reason it was developed was that it was easier to expand the thrust of AL-31F rather than going straight to the specs of AL-41F. From all specs, it looks quite impressive. And let's not forget, it's 3D TVC.

As for su-35BM, it doesn't have canard, but it has other features that makes it extremely manuverable. If Zhuk-mfe is offered with su-35bm, then that would definitely be a really good radar.

1. Tell me YOU gotta be kidding! There is no way China is gonna built the plane based on the MKK and SK, where did you get THAT idea
2. Where did I get the idea of air superiority? well gee itz still gonna be J-11, not H-11 or Q-11, even if itz multi-role, it still can do well in the air
3. Superior to what? whats that suppose to mean? it means for the plane to achieve ground over the airspace youre in

dont you think the J-11B will based itself on the Su-32FN if it was suppose to be an attack plane?

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkl

J-11 has a bigger nose than J-10, which means that it can use a larger radar antenna. If we assume that the technology in klj-4 is at least as good as the technology in klj-3, then klj-4 will deffinately have better performance, with a longer range.

That's what you assume should happen, but it's not the case. KLJ-3 was developed first, so that everything is optimized to be packed in that size. Large area doesn't necessarily translate to better performance. For example, the performance of Zhuk-me and Zhemchug are similar in ranges and such, but Zhuk-me is for su-27 class fighters whereas zhemchug is for mig-29 class fighters.

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chairman Hu

1. Tell me YOU gotta be kidding! There is no way China is gonna built the plane based on the MKK and SK, where did you get THAT idea

can you read Chinese? I will give you analysis to back me up on this. If not based on MKK and sk, what do you think J-11B is based on then?

Quote:

2. Where did I get the idea of air superiority? well gee itz still gonna be J-11, not H-11 or Q-11, even if itz multi-role, it still can do well in the air

As I have said in the past, the best A2A fighter in PLAAF is J-10. Even according to the Chinese analysts, J-11B only has 30-40% advantage in combat over sk and probably almost reached mkks.

Quote:

3. Superior to what? whats that suppose to mean? it means for the plane to achieve ground over the airspace youre in

dont you think the J-11B will based itself on the Su-32FN if it was suppose to be an attack plane?

superiority over which plane? su-27sk? sure, but that's outdated.

No, J-11B will be a multi-role plane like mkk not a dedicated attacker like the fullback. If J-11B is like su-32FN, we would not even need JH-7A anymore.

trkl · 10-24-2005

I think that Zhuk-me is actually for mig-29 and zhemchug was intended for j-10.

Large area does give better performance, if it did not they would just use klj-3 in the j-11 and not change the size of the antenna.

tphuang · 10-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkl

I think that Zhuk-me is actually for mig-29 and zhemchug was intended for j-10.

Large area does give better performance, if it did not they would just use klj-3 in the j-11 and not change the size of the antenna.

because of the weapon selection, integration with the system and a bunch of other reasons. I think you'd probably want KLJ-4 to have better A2G radar sensoring capabilities than KLJ-3.

This is what someone mentionned on CDF a while back, not sure how accurate this is:
"Currently, speaking about avionics and radar, here's the ranks from chinese sources: J10A>J11B>J11A/Su30MKK>J8IIF>Su27. I don't know how accurate this is, but it seems to be true cause even SAC's supporters admitted that even J11B is slightly inferior to J10A. Although J11B has the potential to install larger radar and bigger components, SAC decided to choose a cautious way to only use those ones tested on J10. It's not a bad idea to me, but many chinese fans are pissed off."
http://www.china-defense.com/forum/i...c=3020&st=1775

This is pretty much the sense I get too from reading all the Chinese sites, that KLJ-4 is about the same as KLJ-3.

MIGleader · 10-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

can you read Chinese? I will give you analysis to back me up on this. If not based on MKK and sk, what do you think J-11B is based on then?

As I have said in the past, the best A2A fighter in PLAAF is J-10. Even according to the Chinese analysts, J-11B only has 30-40% advantage in combat over sk and probably almost reached mkks.

superiority over which plane? su-27sk? sure, but that's outdated.

No, J-11B will be a multi-role plane like mkk not a dedicated attacker like the fullback. If J-11B is like su-32FN, we would not even need JH-7A anymore.

better than mkk? the only advantage an mkk has over a su-27 inb a2a is the r-77, and a number of j-11s have already been modified to carry r-77.

china is definitly planning to fit the sd-10 on the plane and stop using so many russian missles.

hu, the j-11b is likely an air superiority fighter with a secondary attack role, similar to the mig-29. china may already be developing a dedicated attacker based on the su-32/34.

rankings:
mkk2
mkk
j-11b
j-11a with r-77
j-10
su-27

Chairman Hu · 10-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIGleader

hu, the j-11b is likely an air superiority fighter with a secondary attack role, similar to the mig-29. china may already be developing a dedicated attacker based on the su-32/34.

rankings:
mkk2
mkk
j-11b
j-11a with r-77
j-10
su-27

1.) MiG-29SMT? Su-27SKM? ahahah yea sry, forgot that China IS building a attack plane based on the 32/34
2.) Those rankings, ya know, the J-11B SHOULD be above the MKK2 though, it isnt like China going to built something inferior, and by the time it enters service, itz equipments are better and also... didnt the J-11B mockup version carry anti-ship missiles?