SinoDefence Forum

Chairman Hu

the blackjack really isnt, cuz the B-2 is (most tactical bomber in the world).

Yea i agree, it really wouldnt be funny if that thing got shot by the Patriot missile defence system, or just 10 S-300s coming after it

Sea dog:
I agree with you too, the Su-33 (Su-27K) DOES have carnads are the Su-35 is a powerful plane to be base on the J-11B/C, the elec equip from the Su-35BM can attack ground, a copied version with a naval attack mode added can save time for China, I really dont wanna see China flying planes of the Su-35BM class in 10 years when the T-50(?) and the JSF are backing other planes like the Raptor and China has a J-11B with only a J-XX, thats good but... THE JSF is there, if China REALLY works hard on this, China can get it out in 5 years, with or w/o TVC engines, why reinvent the wheel, if everything has a base to start with, it will save China YEARS, or like I said earlier, how about a license production of the Su-35BM as the J-11B in about 250ish numbered

tphuang

no, Sukhoi is already loosing out a lot from the indigenization of J-11B. If Su-35 is getting sold to China, it will most likely be sold outright. Even so, China will probably get it if it's not overly expensive. Unlike su-27/mkk, the parts on Su-35 are better than anything China produces right now:
1. The AL-41F1 engine will have at least a thrust of 14.5 tonnes + 3D TVC, all China has is WS-10A
2. If Zhuk-mfe or irbis is used, then that will be better than anything China has in the radar department. Although, I personally expect the Chinese and Russian radar industry to be at the same level soon.
3. China currently doesn't even have a long range AAM, the Novator AAM would be deadly against AWACS and transports.

MIGleader

chian will probably order in batches, each batch specialised for a specific mission. sukoi obviously wants to please china with a good fighter to get more buys out of china. when j-xx comes out, the flankers and j-10s will still have alot of life in them. dont retire tham yet!!

chakos

The Zergling,

The Blackjack is in no way obsolete, in fact it is the Russian "Big Stick" and will be for the forseeable future. The Blackjack can fly both high speed attack missions as well as Hi-Lo-Hi missions in wich it penetrates enemy airspace at high level before making a low level supersonic attack run and egressing again at high level. It carries the largest warload of any combat aircraft the longest distance with the best chance of survival. If It was to carry its full warload of 18 Kh-15 Nuclear tipped cruise missiles with a 3000km range it would be able to obliterate all the major west coast U.S. cities and at no stage come any closer than 500km from the U.S. coast. All it would need is a mid-air refuelling in the mid pacific on the way there and another on the way back. You cant honestly tell me that this is an obsolete aircraft flying an obsolete mission.

Chairman Hu

That suck, if China cant base the J-11B on the Su-35BM, what other fighter? the Su-27? the Su-30? even China stopped the purchase of those...

Question now is: Maybe if the Su-35BM is a purchase, will China cancel the J-11B project, go back and upgrade the J-10 and focus on that and the J-XX?

Well, for the engine and radars, it CAN be a breakthrough that might be something China needs for the J-XX, that or an upgrade version, the AL-41F sounds very tempting...!

MIGleader

cancel j-11b? never. the chinese have 95 more flankers to build, and they dont plan to waste their money. china has already singned an al-41 deal, specifically for j-xx. china may want to use the su-35s as attackers to use with the mkks.

Chairman Hu

WTF?!?!? Su-35BM as an attacker!?!? whats the point, the J-10B can do that, Id rather use it and the 12 missiles it is armed with to crush all opposition in the air, the AL-41F is a fine engine for this mission and itz new elec equip will assist it further! NO WAY China will use THAT as an attack plane, if China wanted it as an attack plane, China would get finish the license as the MKK except China will built it as their version but able to fire Chinese munnitions.

95 more? I thought China stopped AT 95 so China should have 105 to built

even some reports said China built 48 at 2003 and 48 more at 2004...

anyone need a link to that report?

MIGleader

some corrections: j-10b is a two seated j-10, used for training. the j-10 never had an extensive a2g ability nyways, not close to the mkks.

a two seater su-35 bm could be requested without tvc, and with a slightly different avionics suite for ground attack. sukhoi realized the mkk disapointed china, and would be willing to put terrific a2g abilities on the su-35 to sell.

a sepereate version with tvc and bvr could be requested to be used as a frontline air superiority fighter until j-xx comes out.

no one knows exactly how many j-11s china has, but its around 100. the
j-11b project is merely an upgradew for a somewhat old fighter.

Chairman Hu

wow im beat... again...

well by theory speaking, the J-10B is best for A2G and the AL-41F SHOULD come with the Su-35BM, I mean sure, the plane can be for ground attack, but isnt it better with the license finished as the MKK and get Su-35BM to back them up?

or....

you are right, let the J-11B be the air superiority fighter and Su-35BM (w/o TVC) be used for ground attack

err I see what you mean now....

so sry

BTW, anyone got any idea what the J-11B should be based on, Im kinda doubting the Su-35BM now...

MIGleader

i think j-11b is a simiar style upgrade to the su-27skm concept offered by russia. the chinese obviously choose to go with a more indegedous radar and engines. the ws-10a and klj-3 radar are to be fitted, i believe. im also the j-11s get a new ecm and avionics refit. russian avionics are really not user frinedly.

Chairman Hu

That really isnt that great to base it on the Su-27SKM, unless it has carnads, radar abilities around the Su-35BM (reason why we need to buy it) and better engines than the WS-10A, China NEEDS much better engine

btw, even though it doesnt belong in here, is China gonna upgrade the SKs to SKMs?

By the time the J-11B is finished, it will be obsolete compared to EU, USA and Russia

I just hope the radars and engines will hold the aircraft up in a good place...

trkl

I don't see any reason for PLAAF to buy Su-35BM. It won't fly untils 2007 at the earliest and China has gotten wary of funding Russian development projects as they often take longer than expected and don't always meet performance goals. The avionics don't really seem all that impressive, and I think that the j-11 is likely to have better avionics than Su-35BM by the time it comes out. China might have some interest in the engine, though you have to remember that the AL-41F1 is a different and less powerful engine than the AL-41 that is being developed for PAK-FA. The airframe is pretty similar to the standard Su-27 airframe (unlike the "old" Su-35 which had canards). I think that there is very little chance of China buying any.

MIGleader

sadly. the reason the al-41 f1 has less thrust is becaus the airframe cant handle it. its like trying to put a ws-10a on a j-7. if u read the article, it clearly states that the su-35bm can either feature canards or tvc.

as for avionics...the russians arent traditionally very good at it. but haveing seen the inside of the new migs, i think russian avionics have come a long way.

Chairman Hu

Agree to both

By the time J-11B comes out, Chinese avionics on that plane is gonna beat the Su-35BM, but it MIGHT finish earlier for China to have a few

and for the AL-41F engine, China isnt gonna just "copy" it ya know, China is gonna learn the concept and improve it, the AL-41F even with less thrust is gonna be a great leap for engine industry in China, concept-wise

I wonder if the J-11B is gonna have the AL-41F, itd be JUSt like the Su-37!

trkl

Which article? All the articles that I have seen say that Su-35BM does not have canards. It also make me wonder how useful the canards really are; if the latest and "most advnaced" flanker does not use canards, that seems to imply either that the canards did not hep much, or similar gains can be made through improving the fbw system instead.

The Russians are improving but I think that the Chinese are improving even faster. Also, it looks like the Su-35BM will use the irbis radar, which franky does not seem that impressive. Apperantly it still uses semi-mechanical semi-pesa beam stearing, and the speculated stats are not that much beter than Bars'. The Phazatron Zhuk-msf seemd more impresive since it was a true pesa and the estimated stats seem better too. I wonder why it wasn't chosen instead?