This is a discussion on If This Is True, It Will Change Entire Ball Games Of Air Defenses within the Air Force forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; 空间物理学主要研究地球20-30公里高度直到太阳大气这一广阔的日地空间环境中的基本物理过程。武汉大学是我国最早开展电离层及电波传 播研究和教学的单位。1981年，武汉大学空间物理学被批准为我国首批博士学位授权点之一，1988年被确 定为国家级重点学科，1997年，经论证进入“211 工程”国家重点学科建设项目，总投入强度达1335万元。主要研究方向：电离层与磁层研究、中高层大气环境 及其电磁波诊断方法、日地系统扰动传播及空间天气预测等。 空间物理监测学是们很复杂的学问，它的研究监测范围则按其监测对象大致可以分为中层大气、高层大气、电离层 、磁层、日球、宇宙线监测等。在这里笔者不想多说，为了简单明了的让军事迷们明白，我就简单说明下高速战机 在空间物理场中引发的一系列物理变化。飞机在空中飞行时高速的，在飞行中会引起空气涡流、空气压力变化、空 气带电离子变化、水蒸气变化、红外辐射等一系列的空间场景变化，这种变化是很剧烈的，能监测到这种变化的物 理现象，就能监测到任何飞机的行踪，当然，这也是很困难的。最早的空间物理场监测手段，就是红外监测，红外 雷达可以归纳到这一类，但红外监测飞机具有局限性，就是监测距离一般都比较短，大多在50公里以内。现在第 四代战机又加装了红外抑制技术，并采取了多种红外诱导手段，使监测能力大打折扣。广大军事迷们都会在歼11 的图片上看到驾驶舱前面有一个圆形的突出物体，它就是歼11的红外线探测雷达，它能够探测到40公里以外的 空中100W的红外能量体，拿军方的话来说，就是在 40公里的位置上发现第三代战机（如F16）喷气热能量，由于F22等四代战机采用了红外抑制技术，发现距 离最远大概是20公里。 如果想让隐形战机现身，空气水蒸气电离子监测是最有效的手段。喷气战机在空中飞行，机身会和大气剧烈摩擦， 从而使周边空气分子和水蒸气分子带电，在空中形成一个彗星型的电离子带，如水面舰艇行驶留下的尾流现象。能 监测到这个空间电离子带，任何战斗飞机也无法躲避被追踪的命运。我国最早于 2002年开始研制空间电离子监测雷达，当时的用途是用来进行天气监测，监测空气中带电的云团，来给未来战 ...
Senior Member
空间物理学主要研究地球20-30公里高度直到太阳大气这一广阔的日地空间环境中的基本物理过程。武汉大学是我国最早开展电离层及电波传 播研究和教学的单位。1981年，武汉大学空间物理学被批准为我国首批博士学位授权点之一，1988年被确 定为国家级重点学科，1997年，经论证进入“211 工程”国家重点学科建设项目，总投入强度达1335万元。主要研究方向：电离层与磁层研究、中高层大气环境 及其电磁波诊断方法、日地系统扰动传播及空间天气预测等。
空间物理监测学是们很复杂的学问，它的研究监测范围则按其监测对象大致可以分为中层大气、高层大气、电离层 、磁层、日球、宇宙线监测等。在这里笔者不想多说，为了简单明了的让军事迷们明白，我就简单说明下高速战机 在空间物理场中引发的一系列物理变化。飞机在空中飞行时高速的，在飞行中会引起空气涡流、空气压力变化、空 气带电离子变化、水蒸气变化、红外辐射等一系列的空间场景变化，这种变化是很剧烈的，能监测到这种变化的物 理现象，就能监测到任何飞机的行踪，当然，这也是很困难的。最早的空间物理场监测手段，就是红外监测，红外 雷达可以归纳到这一类，但红外监测飞机具有局限性，就是监测距离一般都比较短，大多在50公里以内。现在第 四代战机又加装了红外抑制技术，并采取了多种红外诱导手段，使监测能力大打折扣。广大军事迷们都会在歼11 的图片上看到驾驶舱前面有一个圆形的突出物体，它就是歼11的红外线探测雷达，它能够探测到40公里以外的 空中100W的红外能量体，拿军方的话来说，就是在 40公里的位置上发现第三代战机（如F16）喷气热能量，由于F22等四代战机采用了红外抑制技术，发现距 离最远大概是20公里。
如果想让隐形战机现身，空气水蒸气电离子监测是最有效的手段。喷气战机在空中飞行，机身会和大气剧烈摩擦， 从而使周边空气分子和水蒸气分子带电，在空中形成一个彗星型的电离子带，如水面舰艇行驶留下的尾流现象。能 监测到这个空间电离子带，任何战斗飞机也无法躲避被追踪的命运。我国最早于 2002年开始研制空间电离子监测雷达，当时的用途是用来进行天气监测，监测空气中带电的云团，来给未来战 场提供准确的天气情报。云团是怎样带电的，这个大家都很清楚，我这里也不需要进行介绍。空间电离子监测是项 复杂的技术，工作原理就是发射一定频率的电磁脉冲波，电磁脉冲波与空间电离子相撞，产生新的放电现象，再用 高精度接收器接收放电现象产生的电波。2004年我国第一台实验性空间电离子监测天气预报雷达研究成功，在 计算机等新技术的支持下，我国又于 2008年设计出两坐标空间电离子监测天气预报雷达。2008年9月，新的两坐标空间电离子监测天气预报雷 达在东南沿海测试过程中，无意发现了几个扫帚型电离子带，电离子带的快速移动引起在场科技人员的极大兴趣， 后经望眼镜观测，是我国海军航空兵的某战机中队在实验区域做飞行训练。消息传到军委后引起极大的震动，在1 0月份就下达了军用空间三坐标电离子监测雷达的命令，要求在2012年以前研制成功并装备部队。
然而，空间电离子监测雷达的研制却影响到了我国第四代战机的进度，因为以前的隐身设计理念面临全面落伍的危 险，沈阳飞机研究所于2009年对我国F-XX第四代机设计方案进行重新修整，可以确定的是，新的第四代战机外形绝对不是美国F22那样的，也不要用 F22战机所具有的技术特征来衡量我国的F-XX第四代机。
我国在空间物理场监测方面研究目前是走在世界最前沿的，并世界首次破解了“音障空气蒸气锥”现象，这得益于 我国科学家的辛勤努力。“音障空气蒸气锥”现象，比较专业的军迷都会知道，就是超音速战斗机在进入音速的瞬 间，在机体周围出现的蒸气锥现象。以前世界上的科学家都对这种现象难以理解，不能给出合理的解释。我国的一 位韩氏科学家在2008年指出，“音障空气蒸气锥”现象是空压电离子引发的物理效应耦合现象，被科学界称为 韩氏耦合效应。韩氏耦合效应也为我国空间电离子监测雷达指明了一条无限广阔的光辉大道。（由于一些内容牵涉 到军事技术保密，笔者没有写入，还请广大军迷谅解）
Google Translation, Sorry!
Physical monitoring of space science is very complicated their knowledge , the scope of its research according to their monitoring of the monitoring objects can be divided into the middle atmosphere, upper atmosphere , ionosphere , magnetosphere, on the ball , cosmic ray monitoring. I do not want to say here , in order to allow the military fans in simple to understand , I will briefly explain the physical space under the high-speed aircraft in a series of field -induced physical changes . High-speed aircraft flying in the air , in flight will cause the air current, air pressure , air- charged ions changes, changes in water vapor , infrared radiation and a series of changes in the space scenes , this change is very dramatic , to monitor the This change of physical phenomena , can monitor the whereabouts of any aircraft , of course, this is very difficult. The first space physics field monitoring means that infrared surveillance , infrared radar can be summarized into this category , but the limitations of infrared surveillance aircraft is monitoring the distance is relatively short , mostly less than 50 km . Now the fourth-generation fighter has installed infrared suppression technology , and take a variety of infrared induction means so greatly reduced monitoring capability . The majority of military fans will be in J- 11 cockpit in front of the picture to see a prominent circular object , it is the F- 11 radar, infrared detection , it can detect the air 40 kilometers 100W infrared energy body , to take military Fang 's words, is the location of 40 km found third-generation fighters (such as F16) jet thermal energy , such as F22 fighter planes for four generations using infrared suppression , was found about 20 kilometers from the farthest .
If you want stealth fighters coming out , air water vapor ions is the most effective means of monitoring . Jet fighters flying in the air , the friction body and the intense atmosphere , so the surrounding air molecules and water vapor of charged molecules in the air to form a comet -type ions with , such as surface ship wakes left by moving the phenomenon . This space can be detected ionizing zone, any combat aircraft can not avoid the fate of being tracked . The earliest in 2002 developing space power ion monitoring radar , when the purpose is used for weather monitoring , air monitoring, the cloud of charged to a future battlefield to provide accurate weather information . How clouds are charged , this we know very well , I do not need to be introduced here . Space power is a complex ion monitoring technology works is to launch a certain frequency electromagnetic pulse , electromagnetic pulse ionizing collision with the space , resulting in new discharge phenomenon , and then high-precision receivers to receive radio waves discharge phenomenon . In 2004, China 's first experimental space charge ion monitoring weather radar research success , computers and other new technologies in support of our country again in 2008 to design the two coordinates of space power ion monitoring weather radar . September 2008 , the new two- coordinate space power ion monitoring weather radar during testing in the South East coast , has no intention found with several broom -type ions , ions with the fast-moving technology personnel caused by the presence of great interest , after The telescope observations, some of China's Naval Air Force fighter squadron to do flight training in the experimental area . After the news spread to the CMC caused great shock , issued in October to coordinate military space power ion monitoring radar orders to successful development in 2012 and the troops.
However, the spatial development of electric ion monitoring radar has affected the progress of China's fourth-generation fighters , stealth design as the previous round face the danger of falling behind , the Shenyang Aircraft Research Institute in 2009 on the fourth generation of our F-XX machine design Re- dressing , be sure, the new fourth-generation fighter plane shape is definitely not like the U.S. F22 , F22 fighters that do not have to use the technical features to measure China 's F-XX fourth-generation machine .
China's market monitoring in space physics research is currently taking the world's most cutting-edge , and the world's first break the " sound barrier air vapor cone "phenomenon , thanks to the hard work of our scientists . " sound barrier air vapor cone "phenomenon , more professional military fans will know that the supersonic fighter into the speed of sound in the moment , appears in the body around the phenomenon of steam cone . Before the world's scientists are difficult to understand this phenomenon , can not give a reasonable explanation. A HAN Chinese scientists in 2008 that " the sound barrier air vapor cone "phenomenon is the air ion -induced physical effects of piezoelectric coupling , is the scientific community as HAN coupling . HAN coupling for electric ion monitoring of China's space radar identified a broad bright road unlimited . ( Because some of the elements involved in military and technological secrets , I did not write , also requested the general understanding of military fans )
The Capitalist
So to summarise the article (can you please provide the link) it is saying that while you can use Stealth Technology to hide a plane, you cannot hide the physical changes that it causes to the medium through which it moves and that these physical changes can be detected and "tracked". In this case the change in Ionisation of water molecules in the air itself.
Is this correct?
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Banned Idiot
Originally Posted by SampanViking
Sounds about right to me.
I have known and propose this method of tracking for years now.
A fish needs to swim in water because that's the only way it can operate - and fish creates waves in which it can be tracked.
For a jet fighter which create jet streams - its not hard to imagine as radar tech becomes more and more sophisticated, it will eventually be able to track "air disturbances".
Last edited by Asymptote; 09-07-2010 at 10:02 AM.
Senior Member
Such method was used in the movie to detect the F-117A Nighthawk in Under Seige 2, which then the plane was destroyed. I do hope China have access to such technology, which then it means F-22's stealth superiority will be neutralized. The only reason I wish China has this is because it seems unlikely that China will share this technology yet, or reveal it to public. China is smart enough to know to expose this will sound a loud siren of China threat to the US Congress, which means it will undermine China's safety with the new heightened anti-China threat from revealing too much.
Last edited by airsuperiority; 09-07-2010 at 07:16 PM.
New Member
Hi,
Or you can say---for a submarine---to look for a hole in the water---it is water everywhere in the ocean---but find a spot that is not acting like like an ocean and you got your submarine---wonders of technology.
Super Moderator
The real question is why the PLA let this piece of news out when they are on the verge of developing a system capable of defeating stealth.
Member
It doesn't even sound like an official announcement, probably leaked/made up by netizens.The real question is why the PLA let this piece of news out when they are on the verge of developing a system capable of defeating stealth
Even if it's leaked, I don't think they'd be too worried because it's impossible to stop the phenomenon(Or by the time they can we'd probably be colonizing mars), the detection method will still work.
Super Moderator
Re: If This Is True, It Will Change Entire Ball Games Of Air Defenses
I get the feeling that Chinese engineers/technicians working on the top secret programs are going to hunt down every single info. leaker one day and strangle them out of frustration.
Member
Technically feasible but tactically not so revolutionary. How does one distinguish friendly planes from the hostile ones? How difficult is it to saturate the system by false targets (drones?)? What coverage could such a detecting system offer, and what's the rate of false alarm (disturbance caused by natural/artificial factors)?
Most importantly, a stealthy fighter/bomber can plan the route of flight to avoid confronting the system head-on, in the same manner Germany conquered France in WWII.*
Senior Member
How about what this system sees that regular radar can't... stealth target acquired.How does one distinguish friendly planes from the hostile ones? How difficult is it to saturate the system by false targets (drones?)?
Senior Member
I have a feeling this "report" is bogus.
The concept sounds interesting but to me it sounds like it came from one of those random fanboys who think China's on the verge of developing a nuclear powered international stealth bomber. >_>
Can someone who can read Chinese tell whether the syntax of the article sounds convincing or not?
(On the flipside even if this is an actual leak, it'll still take quite a few years for the technology to mature, but I wouldn't pin my hopes to this thing)
Senior Member
IFF systems? (duh? =/ )
I think that may be a bit difficult, at least if you're trying to fool this ionisation-detector radar thing. UAV's don't usually move that fast, so this special radar doobly-doo probably won't detect the ionisation around the UAV (correct me if I'm wrong).How difficult is it to saturate the system by false targets (drones?)?
But even the skies were full of UAVs it wouldn't really change the dynamic -- this radar will be used to take track fast flying, stealthy targets.
I think the latter is a very interesting question -- I can only imagine that this special ion-detecting radar will be used in conjunction with normal radar to identify "real" targets.What coverage could such a detecting system offer, and what's the rate of false alarm (disturbance caused by natural/artificial factors)?
Well if this system can be miniaturized and installed on AWACS or maybe even fighter aircraft I feel that any stealthy fighters or bombers will face the same problems in avoiding the ion-detection-radar that nonstealthy jets face against normal radar systems today.Most importantly, a stealthy fighter/bomber can plan the route of flight to avoid confronting the system head-on, in the same manner Germany conquered France in WWII.*
Even then, if massive OTH radars were situated around a location strategically it could leave stealthy fighters no way of encountering the system in a non head on fashion.
(Long story short: basically this super-ion-detection radar renders fast stealthy aircraft detectable.)
Soz for biting your head off a bit here dude
Super Moderator
Don't take rough translation like this too seriously. These kind of stuff are only genuine if they come from a research paper or the company thermselves and frankly nothing like that is out. Just typical bs online.
Banned Idiot
using weather radar to detect "wake" generate by aircraft is not new, back in late 80's I recall article written by thomas freidman (i am not sure first name is correct)) about using weather doppler radar as a anti stealth radar, since stealth aircraft will be very difficult to detect and track, the radar will instead track the "wake".
Senior Member
IFF systems? (duh? =/ )
I think that may be a bit difficult, at least if you're trying to fool this ionisation-detector radar thing. UAV's don't usually move that fast, so this special radar doobly-doo probably won't detect the ionisation around the UAV (correct me if I'm wrong).
But even the skies were full of UAVs it wouldn't really change the dynamic -- this radar will be used to take track fast flying, stealthy targets.
I think the latter is a very interesting question -- I can only imagine that this special ion-detecting radar will be used in conjunction with normal radar to identify "real" targets.
Well if this system can be miniaturized and installed on AWACS or maybe even fighter aircraft I feel that any stealthy fighters or bombers will face the same problems in avoiding the ion-detection-radar that nonstealthy jets face against normal radar systems today.
Even then, if massive OTH radars were situated around a location strategically it could leave stealthy fighters no way of encountering the system in a non head on fashion.
(Long story short: basically this super-ion-detection radar renders fast stealthy aircraft detectable.)
Soz for biting your head off a bit here dude
It's not really that hard once you get it online. Installing client "servers" on AWACS or the fighter jets meant they can receive real-time information on enemy locations. Even if that's not the case, it can simply be relayed to the command and then the command relay the information by mouth through radio to the pilots.
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