SinoDefence Forum

Vlad Plasmius · 08-08-2007

Quote:

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmed said talks are underway with China in connection with the acquisition of AWACS and a high-tech aircraft FC-20. “This mix will reduce our dependence on any single country’s assistance,” he noted.

Source: Defense Talk

I thought this was interesting. They're talking about FC-1 and then about getting AWACS and FC-20 from China. Could FC-20 be the designation of J-10?

Indianfighter · 08-08-2007

FC-20 is the J-10 according to Pakistani Air Chief Marshall.

But the main issue is how is the nomenclature decided. Unlike JF-17, Pakistan has not contributed to the J-10, but yet insists on its own nomenclature for it. Also, even if China does agree on the name 'FC-20', it should be FC-2 instead of FC-20, because it is a continuation or sequel to the FC-1 (JF-17 in Pak). What is the '20' in FC-20 stand for ?

Anyway from all sources, FC-20 is a Pakistani name and not Chinese. In China it is called as J-10. Even the FC-1 is likely to be designated as J-9.

fishhead · 08-08-2007

Nothing wrong for Pak call it F-20.

JF-17 was named since it was after F-16, and J10, if imported, has to be given a number > 17.

ali.uaf · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

FC-20 is the J-10 according to Pakistani Air Chief Marshall.

But the main issue is how is the nomenclature decided. Unlike JF-17, Pakistan has not contributed to the J-10, but yet insists on its own nomenclature for it. Also, even if China does agree on the name 'FC-20', it should be FC-2 instead of FC-20, because it is a continuation or sequel to the FC-1 (JF-17 in Pak). What is the '20' in FC-20 stand for ?

Anyway from all sources, FC-20 is a Pakistani name and not Chinese. In China it is called as J-10. Even the FC-1 is likely to be designated as J-9.

No Buddy according to Air Chief Tanvir J-10 is designated as F-10 and Super -10 is designated to FC-20 , I already had this discussion with Sabre on www.defencetalk.com if you want to know more about it go back to 10/20 pages on Pakistan Air Force thread on www.defencetalk.com you will get that interview.

Basically what he said that we are going to induct 36+ F-10 and may acquire FC-20 in near future. You will get the answer there.

Cheers

tphuang · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali.uaf

No Buddy according to Air Chief Tanvir J-10 is designated as F-10 and Super -10 is designated to FC-20 , I already had this discussion with Sabre on www.defencetalk.com if you want to know more about it go back to 10/20 pages on Pakistan Air Force thread on www.defencetalk.com you will get that interview.

Basically what he said that we are going to induct 36+ F-10 and may acquire FC-20 in near future. You will get the answer there.

Cheers

What I read is that PAF visited CAC and is really interested in the upgraded J-10. The one that's supposedly going to do first flight this year.

ali.uaf · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

What I read is that PAF visited CAC and is really interested in the upgraded J-10. The one that's supposedly going to do first flight this year.

Perhaps the upgraded J-10 going to be inducted as FC-20 but still the original was supposed to be inducted as F-10 in PAF as said by Chief Tanvir in the detailed interview I came to know like 3/4 months back.

Do you know more details about the upgraded J-10, what kind of up-gradation we are talking about here?

1- Radar ?
2-Avionics ?
3-Weapons ?
or

4-Twin Engine J-10 ?

ali.uaf · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

Nothing wrong for Pak call it F-20.

JF-17 was named since it was after F-16, and J10, if imported, has to be given a number > 17.

Found it at last

J-10 is F-10A

Quote:

This interview appeared on Daily Jang and was also shown on ARY ONE. This is a translated version from Daily Jang.

Translation Courtesy - Sarmad

INTERVIEW WITH CAS ACM TANVIR MAHMOOD AHMAD
By: Salim Bukhari, Saeed Ali and Naeem Tahir

Q. Would the new Pakistani F-16s would be performing with a handicap or limitations after the American concerns of the use of F-16s by Pakistan?

Ans. There are no handicaps or limitations following the use of the latest F-16C/D Block-52 as well as F-16A/B MLU Fighting Falcons, imposed by the US authorities. PAF can use these aircraft against any target whenever and wherever it wants to. PAF is totally independent in deploying these aircraft against all sorts of targets, in both defensive and offensive roles. All US suspicions are cleared.

Q. Can you explain that why a US team of experts will also accompany these aircraft in Pakistan?

Ans. This is not a new thing. In 1961, a US team of experts accompanied the 12 F-104A Starfighters. Again in 1983, a team accompanied the F-16A/B Fighting Falcons. Similarly French and Chinese team of experts have also accompanied aircrafts of the origin of their countries for the discussion about technical and maintenance details, initially when Mirage III, F-6, F-7MP and F-7PG were inducted.
The only thing which US do not want is that Pakistan does not transfer the technology of the new Falcons to a third country, especially China.

Q. What are your remarks about the new F-16C/D Block-52 Advanced Vipers?

Ans. I am impressed by these new breed of Fighting Falcons. I’m confident that these aircraft along with the MLU F-16A/Bs will bolster PAF’s capabilities and would balance the technological gap of the airforces in the Sub-Continent.
F-16C/D Block-52 is relatively larger, will have enhanced fuel capacity, better engine, powerful radar, better avionics, better payload carrying capacity and range than the earlier versions. Apart from that the aircraft will have night vision, sophisticated targeting pods, ability to carry smart weapons, latest BVR weapons (AIM-120C AMRAAM) and latest Sidewinder missiles and latest sophisticated PGMs and ASMs.
These aircraft will provide all weather day/night capability to hit targets in air, land and sea. Their would be very minimum set up for these as well as upgraded Falcons as Pakistan already has facilities and ground support equipment for the F-16 Fighting Falcons.

Q. How do you compare Pakistan Airforce with Indian Airforce?

Ans. In the present scenario, the role of Pakistan Airforce is to ensure peace in the region and to defend Pakistan from all sorts of aggression. The ratio between PAF and IAF is still the same 1:3 in IAF’s favor. India also enjoys the marvels of latest technology more than Pakistan. Though our F-16A/B Block-15s are still considered as a major threat along the other side of the border, IAF is constantly adding latest and sophisticated aircraft n their arsenal as well as upgrading their old aircraft to meet the requirements of the air warfare arena of today. Practically speaking, PAF even today has the capability to counter any sort of IAF’s aggression but if we won’t take any necessary steps for our modernization in the coming 5-7 years, IAF will go way ahead from us. The balance of power will shift in their favor so much that it would virtually impossible to cope up with them at that time.

Q. Is PAF inducting the Swedish Erieye AEW&C system along with SAAB-2000 aircraft from Sweden? If so, then when will they enter service?

Ans. Affirmative! Pakistan is ready to receive the Swedish Erieye AEW&C systems and Inshallah these systems will enter service in 2009. These radar systems will be used to gather important information and forward it to our Command and Control System, which is linked to the ground radar systems. Thus important information can be forwarded to the Command Operations Center in no time.

Q. What are measures taken for this system to be compatible with PAF fighters?

Ans. All the combat aircraft in PAF’s inventory will be linked to the Erieye system by a data link. New as well as upgraded F-16s, F-10A and JF-17 Thunders are equipped with data links. We are moving towards Network Strategic Warfare, and for that we have worked out on a plan for the modernization of Pakistan Airforce.

Q. Is Pakistan interested in purchasing an aerial refueling system? If true how will PAF utilize this air asset? There is unconfirmed news that Pakistan is considering Ukrainian aerial refueling systems. Is this true?

Ans. Correct! PAF is inducting four Russian origin aircraft equipped with aerial refueling systems from Ukraine. This will enhance defensive and offensive capabilities i.e. PAF’s deep strike capability as well as endurance for long CAP and BARCAP missions. Basically our major aim is to provide a complete aerial refueling system for our JF-17 Thunders which will form our backbone in near future.

Q. Will Pakistan be inducting Chinese KJ-2000 system?

Ans. China is our most sincere friend and in the previous decades, China has excelled in the aircraft development industry and has always offered us frontline equipment with the best package available. Hence we will consider our policies, revise our modernization program and will consider this system to be inducted in our air arsenal along with Erieye System.

Q. What are the options available for PAF to enhance its fleet, and what new fighter types are expected to join PAF in the next five years?

Ans. As I have mentioned earlier, we are keeping all available options open and wants a well balanced multirole jet fighter aircraft. We will be inducting 18 new F-16C/Ds and most probably will use our option of 18 more after the first squadron will be operational. We will also be inducting 26 MLU F-16A/B as well as our existing fleet of 34 aircraft will also undergo the MLU upgrades. 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China.

Q. Is acquiring aircraft from Europe won’t be more feasible?

Ans. In my opinion every option has some special features. We have studied all available options in details. Our main priorities are totally clear in front of the media i.e. Multirole Fighters, High Tech Airborne Radars, BVR Capability and Weapons, Top of the line Weapon Systems and Electronic Warfare Suites. We want to acquire all these things within our resources, and these things in the European market are quite expensive.

Q. How can you compare F-16 and Su-30?

Ans. These aircraft can be compared in many ways. Su-30 MKI has powerful radar but it can be detected by the AEW&C systems and the F-16s will thus be aware of its presence. Apart from that both aircraft can carry latest weapon systems. Su-30 MKI has the capacity to carry heavy loads and more fuel but this can be countered with the help of AAR. In the same manner Chinese F-10A is also an excellent platform in countering this threat and can carry heavier loads than the F-16.

Q. How can we compare F-16 with [B]F-10A and F-18[B]?

Ans. Similarly as I have done it above.

Q. If you are given the authority to induct an aircraft for the PAF, which aircraft will you prefer regarding the resources available?

Ans. The western world has a huge variety of high tech aircraft in which I personally like Typhoon, Grippen, Rafale and FA-18/E. But either these aircraft are expensive or political factors poses some hurdles in their procurement. You would probably understand that their procurement is a sensitive matter hence to be practical and modest F-16C/D or F-16E/F will be my choice.

Q. Initially Pakistan wanted to induct JAS-39 Grippen or Mirage-2000. Will PAF still go for either any of these aircraft, if not then why didn’t this deal materialize?

Ans. We have carried out a detailed series of tests and evaluation on these aircraft and after all the tests were conducted, F-16 was considered as the best due to many reasons.

Q. As you know that the Mirage 2000-9 fighter aircraft was released for the sale to Pakistan. Do you still have any contacts with Dassault for this matter?

Ans. Yes, but not for the Mirage 2000-9 but for our own Mirage series of fighter bombers.

Q. Is this a reality that Thrust Vectoring technology gives an edge in air to air combat? PAF does not possess this technology whereas IAF possess it.

Ans. Thrust Vectoring is an added capability in turning dogfights and close combat, but since the air war of today mostly is fought beyond visual range and effective medium to short range missile coupled with HMS, it’s importance has declined.
Thrust vectoring can be effective in evading a missile, either BVR or SAM.

Q. How will you compare JF-17 with India’s LCA Tejas, Israeli IAI Kfir and Iranian latest jet fighter?

Ans. JF-17 is a fourth generation aircraft, and much more capable than IAI Kfir and Iranian jet fighter. JF-17 can fight any fourth generation fighter and give it either a tough fight or outclass it by using latest tactics of air warfare. Mash Allah, JF-17’s development has taken a lightening pace whereas India is facing problems in LCA Tejas’ development. JF-17’s capabilities are well known by the media whereas LCA Tejas’ capabilities are yet to be revealed.

Q. Can you please provide a comparison between the BVR capabilities of Su-30 and Mirage-2000?

Ans. This is basically a comparison between Russian and French BVR technology. Both are different in performance as well as prices but unlike American BVR missiles, both Russian and French BVR missile are not COMBAT PROVEN.

Q. Can you please inform us about Pakistani PGM capabilities?

Ans. We have top of the range PGM capability, which comprises of both imported as well as domestic weapons.

Q. Can you please tell us that how much money does PAF will require in its modernization program which includes, development of new fighter aircraft, induction of new aircraft and systems and upgradation of old aircraft?

Ans. We will be requiring at least 8-10 Billion Dollars, but since we do not want to put a strain on our economy, our modernizaion program would be completed in 6-8 years starting from now.

Q. What are the measures which you will take for the PAF to make it a formidable fihting force?

Ans. Our targets for modernization should be fullfilled within the time i.e. 6-8 years. We are including AEW and AAR in our fleet as well as gradually replacing old aircraft with new aircraft.

Q. Pakistan is going for F-16s. After 5 years their won't be any room left for the upgradation of F-16C/D whereas F-16 MLU will already been upgraded and cannot be upgraded further. Why Pakistan is not going for JAS-39C Grippen, in which their is room for upgradation of aircraft as well SAAB has agreed to transfer the technology to Pakistan?

Ans. As i have mentioned earlier, latest upgradation, airborne equipment and weapon system can increase the lethality of the aircraft. New variants are certainly different from their older counterparts. As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth, we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/sh...t=3751&page=90

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpos...9&postcount=17

Indianfighter · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali.uaf

No Buddy according to Air Chief Tanvir J-10 is designated as F-10 and Super -10 is designated to FC-20

That is exactly my point that why does Pakistan insist on terming it as FC-20, when it is not known in China by that name ? I can understand the nomenclature of F-10, which is the export version of J-10.

Going by the pattern of FC-x, it should have been FC-2 like FC-1 (which is likely to be J-9 in China).
However Chinese nomenclature has a history of being ambiguous, ostensibly to confuse its military adversaries.
On an out-of-topic note, ACM Tanvir is grossly mistaken about LCA (we won't talk about it any more otherwise it will lead to diversion from the topic).

Diving Falcon · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

That is exactly my point that why does Pakistan insist on terming it as FC-20, when it is not known in China by that name ? I can understand the nomenclature of F-10, which is the export version of J-10.

Going by the pattern of FC-x, it should have been FC-2 like FC-1 (which is likely to be J-9 in China).
However Chinese nomenclature has a history of being ambiguous, ostensibly to confuse its military adversaries.

I can see a bit of a pattern with the "Super-series" and PAF designations.

Super-7 + 10 = 17 >> Joint Fighter-17/JF-17
Super-10 + 10 = 20 >> Fighter China-20/FC-20 - assuming FC-20 is Super-10.

I think the PAF is projecting the FC-20 as a 4.5 generation fighter...possibly with improved & stealthier airframe; supercruise & TVC; ECM/EW, avionics, radar and weapon-systems on-par with those used by Typhoon and Rafale, etc.

tphuang · 08-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali.uaf

Perhaps the upgraded J-10 going to be inducted as FC-20 but still the original was supposed to be inducted as F-10 in PAF as said by Chief Tanvir in the detailed interview I came to know like 3/4 months back.

Do you know more details about the upgraded J-10, what kind of up-gradation we are talking about here?

1- Radar ?
2-Avionics ?
3-Weapons ?
or

4-Twin Engine J-10 ?

there is the upgraded j-10 and the twin-engined J-10. The latter is too far away right now to be considered an option. The former is supposed to fly soon (because the design is finalized). We are not sure right now exactly what kind of radar will be included. AESA is definitely an option if the buyer is willing to pay the cost. But I would caution that sometimes it may not be worthy to pay the extra cost just to get an AESA radar. In terms of avionics, it should be more integrated environment and has better MMI. In terms of weapons, it should be using the latest AAM and ground attack weapons. We would only know what that includes once the time comes.

Diving Falcon · 08-09-2007

tphuang,

Will the upgraded J-10 have an extensively changed airframe compared to the current? Could it house a stronger engine; be capable of super-cruise; physically lighter than the J-10A/B; reduced RCS?

baldo · 08-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diving Falcon

tphuang,

Will the upgraded J-10 have an extensively changed airframe compared to the current? Could it house a stronger engine; be capable of super-cruise; physically lighter than the J-10A/B; reduced RCS?

NO.

airframe will not change more.
still use russia engine ,but yes stronger, al31f-99m?

all the upgrades lead J-10's ability to reach Rafale's level.

there will be NO twin-engine J10 exists, may be there are a new project in 611 which have two engine, but it's not just a upgraded J10.

all those rumors are from those men who want to attract eye-balls in the forum.

Indianfighter · 08-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diving Falcon

I can see a bit of a pattern with the "Super-series" and PAF designations.

Super-7 + 10 = 17 >> Joint Fighter-17/JF-17
Super-10 + 10 = 20 >> Fighter China-20/FC-20 - assuming FC-20 is Super-10.

That is a good pattern you found, but actually the number 17 in JF-17 is used by PAF to signify it as the next fighter after F-16. It is not derived from 7+10. The J-10 did not start as the Super-10 at all, unlike JF-17 which started as the Super-7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baldo

there will be NO twin-engine J10 exists, may be there are a new project in 611 which have two engine, but it's not just a upgraded J10.

all those rumors are from those men who want to attract eye-balls in the forum.

Then that project of 611 is likely to be the J-XX, which shall use J-10 as a base. In India too, the planned MCA is also going to be an iterative next step of the LCA. As far as rumours are concerned, most of them have appeared on Pakistani forums, like twin-engined J-10 with TVC and stealth. In that case, it would surely be the fifth generation combat aircraft J-XX.

tphuang · 08-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldo

NO.

airframe will not change more.
still use russia engine ,but yes stronger, al31f-99m?

all the upgrades lead J-10's ability to reach Rafale's level.

there will be NO twin-engine J10 exists, may be there are a new project in 611 which have two engine, but it's not just a upgraded J10.

all those rumors are from those men who want to attract eye-balls in the forum.

airframe will have changes, otherwise it has no need to have prototypes and do test flights again. Just like every variant of J-7 had changes, so will new variants of J-10. As for engine, it will continue to adopt the two engines approach of WS-10A and AL-31-FM. Actually, it was originally assumed that WS-10 series will be used exclusively, but the recent deal with Salyut kind of changed that. Still, the next major variant of WS-10 isn't that far away, it's just a matter of time.

As for twin-engine J-10, it does exist. Although, if you don't want to call it J-10 and call it something else, that's your choice.

Diving Falcon · 08-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianfighter

That is a good pattern you found, but actually the number 17 in JF-17 is used by PAF to signify it as the next fighter after F-16. It is not derived from 7+10. The J-10 did not start as the Super-10 at all, unlike JF-17 which started as the Super-7.

Yea, but the Super-7 was originally a major development of the F-7...just how Super-10 is a major development of the J-10. If the PAF was to procure a custom variant of the J-10 with no airframe changes, then it'll likely designate them as F-10A/B/P/Y/Z.

SinoDefence Forum

Fc-20 = J-10?

Fc-20 = J-10?

DefenceTalk Military Pictures

vBulletin Tweet Poster