Is it the end of Stealth? what can Stealth fighters do?

It says Typhoons is better than F-22 in (Within Visual Range) combat, this does not mean anything. F-22 was build with stealth in mind, in real situation Typhoon won't even get close before F-22 gets firing solution.

Even J-10 and Su-27 will match up to F-22 in close combat.

Originally Posted by jackliu

It says Typhoons is better than F-22 in (Within Visual Range) combat, this does not mean anything. F-22 was build with stealth in mind, in real situation Typhoon won't even get close before F-22 gets firing solution.

Even J-10 and Su-27 will match up to F-22 in close combat.

I agree... unless something has gone terribly wrong operationally a Raptor will NEVER fight WVR...also the Typhoon and German pilots are 2nd to none so the odds of a Raptor facing a combination of both an experienced Luftwaffe/NATO pilot and WVR in a real life combat situation is highly unlikely.

What I really like to know is the outcome of a matchup between a squadron of F-22 vs a squadron of fully operational J-20 in BVR head to head combat. That would be awesome BUT again that is probably not going to happen in peacetime UNLESS sometime in the early 2020's USAF opens up exercises like Red Flag to PLAAF ... once J-20 have achieved IOC and have been flying operationally for a few years...we can always hope right?

Primary advantage of the F-22 is it RADAR stealth. I don't think any aircraft (including EF & Rafale) has ever detected the F-22 let alone register a kill at BVR ranges. But that all changes in WVR where high performance IR missiles like ASRAAM & AIM-9X comes in to play. Even F/A-18E/F (using AIM-9X & JHMCS) have F-22 kills. According to Rafale pilots the F-22 is formidable but NOT unbeatable at WVR. EF-Typhoon with PIRATE + HMD + ASRAAM is a very deadly opponent. F-22 pilots will do their best at BVR ranges. At BVR they quite literally wipe the skies clean. And don't forget F-22s hunts in packs including at WVR battles. The above WVR kills are one-on-one. The F-22 is not there to fight fair it is there to provide air-dominance.

WVR combat has lots of information to confirm what you're doing. BVR relies on sensors external to the fighter aircraft. I don't know how effective they will be, but the potential to fool sensors with decreasing direct human oversight increases significantly. Stealth, low observeability, is a multilayered enabler to get into a closer weapon range without being in a targeting solution. It can as well be achieved with decoys, jamming and electronic warfare.

Originally Posted by Kurt

WVR combat has lots of information to confirm what you're doing. BVR relies on sensors external to the fighter aircraft. I don't know how effective they will be, but the potential to fool sensors with decreasing direct human oversight increases significantly. Stealth, low observeability, is a multilayered enabler to get into a closer weapon range without being in a targeting solution. It can as well be achieved with decoys, jamming and electronic warfare.

the interesting point about the article is the fact EADS claims to have developed a passive radar able to detect stealth aircraft

Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft, and that itself is practically undetectable http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-aircraft.html


if that is true and as you say Eurofighter will breach the gap between the 4.5+ generation and the 5th generation making the 5th generation none existent


So at the end the Eurofighter will be as capable as the F-22 or any stealth fighter

Originally Posted by kwaigonegin

I agree... unless something has gone terribly wrong operationally a Raptor will NEVER fight WVR...also the Typhoon and German pilots are 2nd to none so the odds of a Raptor facing a combination of both an experienced Luftwaffe/NATO pilot and WVR in a real life combat situation is highly unlikely.

What I really like to know is the outcome of a matchup between a squadron of F-22 vs a squadron of fully operational J-20 in BVR head to head combat. That would be awesome BUT again that is probably not going to happen in peacetime UNLESS sometime in the early 2020's USAF opens up exercises like Red Flag to PLAAF ... once J-20 have achieved IOC and have been flying operationally for a few years...we can always hope right?

here is what means F-22 will be detected

The particular characteristics of the omnipresent radio signals used for operation enable detection of even objects that are difficult to detect, such as stealth aircraft or stealth ships. A further advantage of the new technology is its increased detection capacity in areas of radar shadow such as mountainous terrain and its capability to locate extremely slow and low flying objects

''Passive Radar'' from Cassidian Remains Invisible

Europe is boasting simply they can detect and out fly the F-22 and by default any stealth fighter

for all the talk of passive radar, a missile still need to home onto the thing to make a kill.
if you do homing in radiofrequency range and do it autonomously. that will mean active radar in higher bands (S/X-band). either Semi active or Active. higher bands = higher precision = more resolutions on features of the object.

that's where F-22's stealth shaping coming in.

sure with some luck and work a 1950 era knife rest early warning radar with its VHF bands can pick up stealth, we get it. but good luck guide a missile onto it.

p.s.

higher bands is also where most of the modern jammers come into play. for lower bands like the VHF P-8/10/12/18 soviet radars spoofing is more appropriate.

Originally Posted by MiG-29

the interesting point about the article is the fact EADS claims to have developed a passive radar able to detect stealth aircraft

Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft, and that itself is practically undetectable ''Passive Radar'' from Cassidian Remains Invisible


if that is true and as you say Eurofighter will breach the gap between the 4.5+ generation and the 5th generation making the 5th generation none existent


So at the end the Eurofighter will be as capable as the F-22 or any stealth fighter

It's the old story that stealth as the concept of angled crafts doesn't work if it reflects radiation from lots of angles. The problem is how to detect that radiation and how to calculate it into something reliable. It will be a whole new can of worms for electronic warfare.
Passive radar homing can provide targeting solutions, bu will likely have to switch to different measures for locking on. It's not impossible to achive a radar lock on an F-22 if you know where it is. That's why stealth is better called low observeability.

There's a difference between Europe & Israel and the US. The Europeans and Israel try to solve the observeability and enemy targeting problem with a different approach that puts much less emphasis on structural radar reflection management of certain bandwiths. They have low radar reflection as a less important part of an electronic warfare and decoy package to deny the enemy good targeting solutions.

Originally Posted by Kurt

It's the old story that stealth as the concept of angled crafts doesn't work if it reflects radiation from lots of angles. The problem is how to detect that radiation and how to calculate it into something reliable. It will be a whole new can of worms for electronic warfare.
Passive radar homing can provide targeting solutions, bu will likely have to switch to different measures for locking on. It's not impossible to achive a radar lock on an F-22 if you know where it is. That's why stealth is better called low observeability.

There's a difference between Europe & Israel and the US. The Europeans and Israel try to solve the observeability and enemy targeting problem with a different approach that puts much less emphasis on structural radar reflection management of certain bandwiths. They have low radar reflection as a less important part of an electronic warfare and decoy package to deny the enemy good targeting solutions.

If the new EADS radar works well, the Eurofighter can be guided and with IRST and Radar i am sure it will detect and track the F-22, the F-22 or any stealth aircraft are detectable, they are low observable to earlier radar systems, but newer systems are bringing the detectability and tracking capability back to their original ranges where modern AAMs can be used upon their whole envelop, good for Europe in fact it is logic the F-22 is old now 21 years since it first flew as YF-22 and 15 as F-22 all technologies become obsolete, and stealth is one at least in its current form


Experts explain that just as Russia can presently detect the US F-35 stealth aircraft through the use of old low-frequency radars, a ballistic missile can be detected in the same way. http://www.israeldefense.com/?Catego...ArticleID=1281


Stealth technology — which today gives U.S. jets the nearly unparalleled ability to slip past hostile radar — may soon be unable to keep American aircraft cloaked. That’s the potentially startling conclusion of a new report from Barry Watts, a former member of the Pentagon’s crystal-ball-gazing Office of Net Assessment and current analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments in Washington.

“The advantages of stealth … may be eroded by advances in sensors and surface-to-air missile systems, especially for manned strike platforms operating inside defended airspace,” Watts cautions in his 43-page report The Maturing Revolution in Military Affairs (.pdf), published last week.

Stealth-killing advances include VHF and UHF radars being developed by Russia and China, and a “passive-detection” system devised by Czech researchers. The latter “uses radar, television, cellular phone and other available signals of opportunity reflected off stealthy aircraft to find and track them,” Watts explainshttp://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...tech-obsolete/

An of course once you get into a WVR engagement, it comes down to pilot skill. I remember F18 pilots were boasting about simulated victories over the F22. It really can't be compared to a real life engagement.

Originally Posted by Franticfrank

An of course once you get into a WVR engagement, it comes down to pilot skill. I remember F18 pilots were boasting about simulated victories over the F22. It really can't be compared to a real life engagement.

Super Hornet pilots have gotten F-22 in their sights at least once.

I find this one quite curious. Reason is, it is an EA-18G Growler with an F-22 kill and it was using an AIM-120 and not an AIM-9X (Link). How did this happen? The AIM-120 is an Active-Radar missile compared the AIM-9X & ASRAAM which is IIR.

Originally Posted by Hyperwarp

I find this one quite curious. Reason is, it is an EA-18G Growler with an F-22 kill and it was using an AIM-120 and not an AIM-9X (Link). How did this happen? The AIM-120 is an Active-Radar missile compared the AIM-9X & ASRAAM which is IIR.

No big deal, with the amount of excise, there are bound to be losses on both sides. This F-18 is just bad sportsmanship by painting the F-22 on the hull. Just think about the the hundreds of jets that F-22 shut down in excises, and if F-22 decide to paint them all, there would be no space left.

The F22 is supposed to kill everything. If one of the trashcans strikes back, the underdog feels entitled.

Let's take a different approach, you want to bomb someone. You send lots of false information to his radars under intense electronic warfare conditions with select strikes on active radar emission sources. The F22 is meant to fly in that messy information environment with a very low radar return for flying radars (that have the highest surviveability because they quickly shift locations). Low energy return means that the available energy of EW emitters can be used to create several times more wrong perceptions, a whole mess on the enemy radar screens. The training is conducted in peacetime environments and full EW would have adverse effects on a lot of electromagnetic waves used for civilian purposes.
Europe's passive radar approach can utilize lots of inexpensive and hard to kill sources. That's good if you want to defend homeland, but how do you use that to fight an enemy who controls his emissions?