China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

These news I just saw on royfc's translations.

Russia and Ukraine Preparing to Sign Agreement on Resumption of An-124 Series Production

((It will be a document declaring their intent. It is not a contract actually to build anything. Details on sharing proprietary information still must be worked out.))

Russia and Ukraine Will Continue to Cooperate on An-70 Project

((Much work remains and it will cost nearly 300 million dollars. Not further translated.))

I personally think it's a real shame that China didn't come in to buy any An-124 or cooperate on An-70. Instead asked Antonov to help it with it's own military transport and then also made the IL-76 order. Look at where is at now. They don't have the interim military transport and their indigenous projects probably has another 5 to 10 years to go. What a mess.

I don't think the situation is quite that bad. In the past, China has been able to "rush" something into production when it is badly needed. Look at Jiang Zemin's order to build AWACS after the Phalcon was canceled. I believe Hu Jintao has done the same with the military transports. The engines are already well into development and developing a military transport translates well into the civilian industries. I do believe a lot of activity is afoot, and we'll see the fruits of these in the next year or two.

"I personally think it's a real shame that China didn't come in to buy any An-124 or cooperate on An-70. Instead asked Antonov to help it with it's own military transport and then also made the IL-76 order. Look at where is at now. They don't have the interim military transport and their indigenous projects probably has another 5 to 10 years to go. What a mess."
The An-70 has problems with her prop design ( that was the main reason the lead An-70 crashed during flight testing), if An-70 uses turbofan, then we will see the PLAAF be interested. AN-124 is too big to fit in China's need, and 5 or 6 years ago, it didn't seems like any more new AN-124s would be made, ever. On top of that, with the cheap prices that the Russian had agreed on the 38 new Il-76s, the PLAAF was thinking they had a good deal, but then the Russian could not deliver on time and at that price. So today, PLAAF faces a gap of sorts in heavy airlift capability.
As for indigenous projects, the Y-7, Y8-600 and Y-9 has to do for now. For IL-76 class jet, I think 5 years is roll out date if they are on the ball. Add three more years for flight testing, first service will be in 2017, if they are lucky, by then, the 20 or so IL-76s they had bought 10 years ago will be ready for retirement. So yes, the picture does not look good. All the Chinese can do is built more Y7, Y8 and hope the Russians can deliver the 38 IL76s in the next 10 years. I bet, the PLAAF will buy more IL-76s once those 38 are build and the order filled. Because they haven't got a choice.

The Chinese will need their own organic outsized strategic airlift capabilities if they wish to become a world power. Look at the current list of nations that own their own organic outsized strategic airlift capabilities. They are all world powers, with the ability to deploy far from their own borders, or deploy quickly across their own territory. Sure, rail or road might be cheaper, but the ability to instantly respond within your own border and bring very big and heavy pieces of equipment is invaluable to responding to a crisis. And simply put it, the Il-76 isn't a true outsized strategic airlifter.

Originally Posted by Pointblank

The Chinese will need their own organic outsized strategic airlift capabilities if they wish to become a world power. Look at the current list of nations that own their own organic outsized strategic airlift capabilities. They are all world powers, with the ability to deploy far from their own borders, or deploy quickly across their own territory. Sure, rail or road might be cheaper, but the ability to instantly respond within your own border and bring very big and heavy pieces of equipment is invaluable to responding to a crisis. And simply put it, the Il-76 isn't a true outsized strategic airlifter.

The Il-76 is comparable to a C-17 in function and dimensions, something along those lines would be what a Y-XX transport would be like.

Originally Posted by montyp165

The Il-76 is comparable to a C-17 in function and dimensions, something along those lines would be what a Y-XX transport would be like.

No, the C-17 is much bigger. The C-17's cargo hold is 26.8m x 5.5m x 3.8m, while the Il-76 is 25m x 3.25m x 3.4m, with the first 6m of the cargo hold being only 2.7m tall. Furthermore, max payload of a C-17 is 77 tons, compared to the Il-76's 60 tons, in the Il-76MF variant.

Lets not forgot how busy Hu Jintao is right now in China, with its Olympics games coming soon, Shanghai Expo, and very recently Snow Storm disaster. Hu Jintao already stated to reporters that it was hard to deliver enough supplies in time due to the lack in available driveable roads and lack in numbers of aircrafts.

So after this snow storm incident Im sure they will look into this transport aircraft problem.

3 articles, repeats of each other, saying that Antonov is setting up the engineering center in China with AVIC II

Ukraine, China working at creation of aircraft engineering center in
Beijing

Kyiv, February 19 (Interfax-Ukraine) - The China Aviation Industry
Corporation II (AVIC II) and Ukraine's Antonov Design Bureau are working
at the creation of a joint aircraft engineering center in Beijing.
The current stage of cooperation on the project was discussed
during a recent visit of a Chinese delegation led by AVIC II corporation
president Zhang Hongbiao to Kyiv.
Antonov Design Bureau is expected to help China in the development
of new airplanes and upgrading its existing ones. In particular, the
company is expected to conduct research and design work, propose and
support new aircraft projects and conduct necessary background research.
AVIC II and Antonov Design Bureau will continue upgrading the
Chinese Y8F600 medium size medium range transport aircraft produced by
Shaanxi Aircraft Company in China, based on the Ukrainian Antonov An-12
aircraft.
As reported, Ukraine and China signed a memorandum of understanding
on the establishment of a joint aircraft engineering center in Beijing
at the Aviation Expo China 2007 held last September.
Antonov Design Bureau is currently studying opportunities for
taking part in China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC-I) projects
aimed at the development of a new Chinese transport aircraft with a
payload capacity of 60 tonnes and a new long-range airliner with a
seating capacity of 150-200 passengers.
Last fall, Antonov Bureau and AVIC-I also signed a memorandum of
understanding on the development of a new Chinese 70-seat regional
turboprop.

Kiev (dpa) - The Ukrainian aerospace manufacturer Antonov and the
Chinese Aviation Industry Corporation are in the final stages of
setting up a joint aircraft design bureau, the Interfax news agency
reported on Monday.
The aviation-engineering centre will be located in Beijing China.
Once operational it will become Antonov's third major international
cooperation programme, along with Russia and Iran.
Antonov is a world leader in heavy cargo aircraft design and
manufacture. The firm also produces medium and light aircraft, and
during the Soviet era built the world's current largest cargo plane
the An-225 Mriya.
The branch of the Chinese Aviation Industry Corporation
participating in the project, generally known as AVIC-II, produces the
small passenger airliner Harbin Y-12, medium-range transport aircraft,
and helicopters.
The Chinese-Ukrainian centre's first priority will be continuing a
modernization programme for China's 4-engine turboprop Y8F400, a
licensed version of the venerable An-12 first produced by Antonov for
the Soviet Union in the late 1950s, company spokesman said.

Motor Sich to Strengthen Ties to Chinese AVIC-II

According to Interfax, Chinese aircraft manufacturer AVIC-II announced is ready
to expand its projects with Ukrainian companies such as Zaporizhya-based Motor
Sich (MSICH: BUY) and Ivchenko Progress design bureau, to include the
development of new modifications to AVIC-II's medium-haul cargo airplane, the
Y8F600, which is a variant of the Ukrainian An-12. AVIC-II's CEO said the
company plans to visit Zaporizhya to negotiate collaboration terms. Inna
Perepelytsya: In 2002, AVIC-II signed an agreement with Pratt & Whitney to
install its engines on Y8F600 planes. We can assume that cooperation with Pratt
& Whitney could have proven rocky. In any case, we see Motor Sich's
participation in this project as very likely: it already delivers engines for
the AVIC-II-built trainer, L-15, as well as has had a supply agreement with
Pratt & Whitney since 2007. We are waiting for more information to estimate the
possible impact on Motor Sich's revenues.

China lays plans for ARJ21-900

By K.K. Chadha
February 19, 2008
Aircraft

China has confirmed plans to establish a new company next month to build its next commercial airliner, the 105-seat ARJ21-900. Shareholders will likely include the China Aviation Industry Corp. I (AVIC I), AVIC II, state-owned investment companies and domestic airlines.

The new aircraft will be assembled in Shanghai, with the nose, fuselage and tail sections manufactured in other cities, according to AVIC II vice president Liang Zhenhe. Next month should see the appointment of a director and chief research engineer for the new company.

AVIC I Commercial Aircraft (ACAC) has developed the recently rolled out ARJ21-700 at a cost of $825 million, and is holding talks with Canada’s Bombardier to initiate research to build the bigger version. “Talks with Bombardier are going smoothly, but the final design of the new jet is still under discussion,” said Wang Weiya, head of AVIC I’s civil aviation department.

Meanwhile, preliminary work has also begun on building an 80,000-ton die-hydraulic press forge in Deyang, in Sichuan province, which will cost $205 million. All of China’s existing press forges are of less than 40,000 tons capacity and therefore not fit for making key parts of large airplanes.

In December, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao visited the AVIC I factory, which is building the ARJ21, and gave a speech emphasizing the priority that the government is now giving to the manufacture of large jetliners. According to Gu Huizhong, deputy general manager of AVIC I, the government plans to merge AVIC I and AVIC II to better equip them for the task. Both companies have experience supplying components to Boeing and Airbus.

ACAC has scheduled first flight of ARJ21-700–called Xiang Feng (Flying Phoenix) in Chinese–for next month. The company has received 171 orders for the 2,000-nm-range aircraft, including two from Lao Airlines and several from leasing companies. It plans to deliver the first aircraft to domestic launch customer Shandong Airlines in September 2009. “The ARJ21 makes us part of the global aviation industry but it still faces a new journey to become successful financially,” said general manager Lin Zuoming.

Although it has yet to secure a Western customer, ACAC plans to certify the airplane to international standards with the help of U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s office in Shanghai. ACAC deputy chief designer Chen Yong said the aircraft will go through more than 170 tests before it gets the certification.

The ARJ21 cabin is 123 inches wide, which is 15 to 25 inches wider than Bombardier’s CRJ700 and CRJ900 jets, and Embraer’s 170 and 190 models. The seat is almost an inch wider than that of the Boeing 737. “It’s one of the amplest cabins of any regional plane in the world,” said Chen. “We aim to provide regional air passengers with the service comparable to trunk line airplanes.”

Liu Daxiang, a vice president for AVIC I, said China has set a target of completing designs for a large aircraft by 2010, with production starting by 2020, which will help the country secure market share from foreign aircraft makers.

China believes that developing a large aircraft will help it to master core technologies and reduce its dependence on foreign technology. Some 40 percent of the ARJ21’s components came from overseas, including its General Electric CF34-10A turbofans and Rockwell Collins Pro Line avionics. AVIC I plans to begin mass production in 2009 and expects to realize an annual output of 30 ARJ21s within two years. At present, China uses foreign-made Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Embraer models on its domestic airline routes.

The Chinese believe the ARJ21 can take up to 60 percent of the domestic market for mid-size regional airliners over the next 20 years. Official forecasts predict a need for at least another 800 to 1,000 regional jets by the year 2020.
Bombardier Counts On Chinese Connection

Bombardier’s involvement in China’s ARJ21-900 program would result in Avic I becoming a risk-sharing partner in its own proposed C Series airliner, due for industrial launch some time this year. The Canadian airframer’s schedule calls for first delivery of the C Series in 2013, while AVIC I has set its sights on 2012 for service entry of the ARJ21-900.

Although a memorandum of understanding signed between Bombardier and AVIC I during last year’s Paris Air Show centers on the ARJ21-900 and C Series, the final agreement would cover any number of projects associated with the 90- to 149-seat market segment. Apart from Bombardier’s engineering help, the MOU calls for the Canadian company to contribute $100 million in plant and equipment investment related to the ARJ21-900, while AVIC I unit Shanghai Aircraft Co. gains status as the Tier 1 supplier of the C Series’ aluminum lithium and composite fuselage.

Bombardier has sent some engineers to work in Shanghai with engineers employed by AVIC I on the ARJ21-900. Now in the so-called joint technical assessment phase, the program will move into the more advanced joint concept definition phase over the next few months, at which point Bombardier would begin sending more people to join in engineering work.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single...00/?no_cache=1

Singapore 2008: Honeywell approaches Chinese with its mechanical systems
By Leithen Francis

US firm Honeywell Aerospace is hoping to have its Apex integrated cockpit and some mechanical systems on China’s MA700 and it also plans to sub-contract out some work on mechanical systems and jointly develop new products with Chinese firms.

“We are meeting with design bureaus” in China and “having discussions about placing mechanical systems and getting the new Apex integrated cockpit” on the Xian Aircraft MA700 but it is still only early discussions, Honeywell Aerospace president Asia Pacific, Mark Howes, told ATI today at the Singapore Airshow.

The MA700 is a new 70-seat turboprop aircraft that Xian Aircraft plans to launch this year and it promises to be completely different to its current product offering, the MA60 which is a 50-60 seat turboprop.

Honeywell provides the auxiliary power unit on the MA60 while its arch-rival Rockwell Collins provides the avionics.

Howes says because Honeywell has been speaking to China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) I’s First Aircraft Design Institute (FAI), invariably the meetings have also included discussions about the 150-plus seat commercial aircraft that China plans to develop and build.

FAI is significant because it is the country’s leading aircraft design bureau.

The Chinese company that is to spear-head the 150-seater programme is due to be established next month and the aim is to have the aircraft enter service in 2020.

AVIC I and II are expected to be shareholders in the new programme company.

While Honeywell is working to get its products on more Chinese-built aircraft, the US firm is also looking to subcontract out more work to China.

Honeywell has a joint venture company with AVIC I’s Nanjing Engineering Institute of Aircraft Systems (NEIAS).

This joint venture works on fuel control, auxiliary power units and environmental control systems, says Howes.

“We are having dialogue with many companies” in China about sub-contracting out work to China on auxiliary power units and aircraft engine parts although Honeywell has to be mindful about US laws with regards to the transfer of manufacturing technologies, he says.

Howes also says Honeywell is building its engineering capability in Beijing and Shanghai and plans to jointly develop some new products with Chinese partners.

China’s government announced two years ago that the country will develop its individual capability and wants foreign firms to help with this, he adds.

One of the reasons Honeywell shifted its Asia Pacific regional office from Singapore to Shanghai is because it could see much of the growth was in China and good opportunities were emerging from the country’s indigenous aircraft programmes, explains Howes.

“Our view is that China has reached a point where it has set up structures that have improved the chances of success” for Chinese aircraft programmnes, he adds.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...l-systems.html

Honeywell To Provide Its Primus Apex™ Avionics For Harbin Aircraft Corporation’s Y12 Platform: China-based Manufacturer Anticipates Sales of Approximately 250 Upgraded Y12 Aircraft Over Ten Years

This news was published on Tuesday, February 19th, 2008 and is archived under Industry.

SINGAPORE AIR SHOW, Feb. 19, 2008 – Honeywell (NYSE: HON) announced today that it has been selected to provide its Primus Apex integrated avionics system for the China-based Harbin Aircraft Corporation’s Y12 aircraft. “Primus Apex offers Harbin the most advanced autoflight, navigation and situational awareness capabilities available today,” said Rob Wilson, President, Honeywell Business & General Aviation. “The technology, high resolution displays, and fully automated controls assure operators more efficient flight deck operation and improved aircraft safety.” Primus Apex recently received Technical Standard Order approval from the Federal Aviation Administration on the Pilatus PC-12E aircraft, and is the first Part 23 avionics system to offer flight management functions meeting TSO C153 requirements.

Primus Apex is Honeywell’s integrated avionics platform for turboprop and light business jet applications. Primus Apex offers similar navigation and situational awareness capabilities as those offered in larger, global business jets such as integrated autothrottle and Interactive Navigation graphical flight planning with detailed terrain and sensor overlays.

Honeywell International is a $36 billion diversified technology and manufacturing leader, serving customers worldwide with aerospace products and services; control technologies for buildings, homes and industry; automotive products; turbochargers; and specialty materials. Based in Morris Township, N.J., Honeywell’s shares are traded on the New York, London and Chicago Stock Exchanges. For additional information, please visit www.honeywell.com.

Based in Phoenix, Honeywell’s aerospace business is a leading global provider of integrated avionics, engines, systems and service solutions for aircraft manufacturers, airlines, business and general aviation, military, space and airport operations.
http://www.skycontrol.net/industry/h...over-ten-year/

AVIC video could support FBI spy case

By Chris Pocock
February 19, 2008
Aircraft



This screen grab from a 2007 AVIC promotional video shows what appears to be a C-17 clone.

A computer-generated skeletal view of a military transport closely resembling the Boeing C-17 appeared in a promotional video released last year by Aviation Industries of China (AVIC). Coincidentally–or not–the FBI last week arrested a former Boeing engineer and charged him with passing trade secrets on the C-17 to China.

The engineer, Greg Chung, 72, is a U.S. citizen of Chinese origin, who worked for Boeing in Southern California. He also faces charges of handing over details of the Delta IV space launcher. U.S. attorney Thomas O’Brien said Chung was motivated by love for “the motherland,” rather than a desire to get rich.

The fuselage and tail shown in the AVIC video look much like the C-17, but the wing and engine-mounting configuration differs. AVIC has not formally revealed a jet military transport development program. China has been importing Ilyushin Il-76 transports from Russia and Uzbekistan for its air force and as the platform for development of an indigenous AEW system.

During the 1980s and early 1990s, China acquired and adapted various Western military technology, especially from Europe and Israel. Although done legitimately, the projects drew controversy in the West, especially after China’s brutal suppression of democracy activists in 1989. But the U.S. Director of National Intelligence warned recently that China’s secret service ranked among the “most aggressive” in trying to steal U.S. military secrets.

In a separate case, the FBI last week charged three others with selling military information to the People’s Republic. Those arrested were Yu Xin Kang, Tai Shen Kuo and Gregg Bergersen. They were accused of passing classified information from the Pentagon to China, mostly concerning U.S. arms sales to Taiwan. Yu is a Chinese citizen with permanent residence in the U.S. Tai is a U.S. citizen born in Taiwan. AIN has learned Bergersen worked for Science Applications International Corp., an engineering and systems integration house that is a major contractor to the U.S. Defense Department.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single...se/?no_cache=1

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Interesting especially in light of recent events in the past few years in Ukraine. The Orange Revolution shifted Ukraine more towards the West yet they seem to have healthy relations with China. Is this a case of the Russian population of Ukraine that was more sympathetic towards Russia doing these deals or Ukraine even though has soured relations with Russia wants to be independent and unwilling to be the client state of the West as well?

more news related to China from Singapore air show. Actually, they are more like rehashing of old stories.
hina may involve Ivchenko-Progress, Motor-Sich into Y8F600
modernization

Kyiv, February 20 (Interfax-Ukraine) - The China Aviation Industry
Corporation II plans to expand cooperation with Ukrainian aircraft
builders on upgrading the Y8F600 transport aircraft.
The possibility of involving Ukraine's aircraft engine producers -
the state-run Ivchenko-Progress enterprise and OJSC Motor-Sich (both
based in Zaporizhia) - was considered during a recent visit of a Chinese
delegation led by AVIC II corporation president Zhang Hongbiao to Kyiv.
AVIC II is planning to send its representatives to Zaporizhia
enterprises to discuss cooperation prospects.
Ukrainian aircraft engine producers are currently participating in
the creation of the L-15 supersonic training aircraft produced by Hongdu
company and equipped with AI-222-25F engines, which were designed by
Ivchenko-Progress.
AVIC II and Antonov Design Bureau have been working together on the
creation of the Y8F600 medium range transport aircraft since 2002. The
Y8F600 is produced by Shaanxi Aircraft Company in China, and is based on
the Ukrainian Antonov An-12 aircraft.

By Lee Spears
Feb. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Honeywell International Inc., the
world's biggest maker of aircraft controls, will expand
operations in China, seeking contracts for projects such as the
nation's planned large jetliner.
The aerospace manufacturing and engineering businesses will
be developed to convince China to use Honeywell parts in the
aircraft being developed domestically, Mark Howes, president of
Honeywell's aerospace division for Asia-Pacific, said in an
interview today at the Singapore Airshow. The government has yet
to set a timetable for the aircraft.
China is investing billions of dollars and overhauling its
aerospace industry to help it develop planes that will sell
overseas and compete with Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS. Honeywell
aims to supply to at least three models planned by Chinese
producers and also partner with local companies, Howes said.
``We're positioning ourselves to play.''
Honeywell supplies electronic systems for the 70-to 90-seat
ARJ21-700 passenger jet built by China Aviation Industry Corp. I,
or AVIC I. It's also a supplier for AVIC I's 50-seat MA60
turboprop, and for the Y-12 turboprop made by state-owned AVIC
I's smaller rival AVIC II, Howes said.
China has planned a series of planes based on the ARJ
platform, a next-generation MA700 turboprop and a large jetliner.
Honeywell is in talks with industry leaders and regulators as
decisions are being made on how supplier contracts will be
awarded, Howes said.
Honeywell forecasts annual sales growth of 30 percent in the
next five years, the Shanghai Daily reported on Nov. 13, citing
Shane Tedjarati, general manager of the company's China unit.
Sales in China, the largest single market contributor to
Honeywell, have reached $1 billion across the company's
businesses in specialty materials, aerospace, automation control
and transport, the newspaper said.

Sokrat: Chinese seek business relationship with Motor Sich
February 20, 2008

Chinese industrial aviation cooperation AVIC-II is ready to expand its working
relationship with the Motor Sich Company [MSICH, BUY] to create new engine
modifications for its new cargo Y8F600 aircraft. The president of the Chinese
corporation is ready to initiate discussions for future cooperation with the
Ivchenko-Progress construction bureau and with the Motor Sich Company. AVIC-II
representatives are planning on visiting the Ukrainian company's production
sites with the purpose of conducting further negotiations.

Nice to hear the Y-12 getting upgraded....but what's the MA 700?

can someone with better Chinese skills than me read the first post here and explain what this guy is saying about IL-76?
http://bbs.cjdby.net/viewthread.php?...extra=page%3D1

Originally Posted by tphuang

can someone with better Chinese skills than me read the first post here and explain what this guy is saying about IL-76?
http://bbs.cjdby.net/viewthread.php?...extra=page%3D1

He said, apparently some people from the Kazakstan IL-76 factory was willing to sell the full blueprint and technical documents of IL-76 to China a few years ago. That was after Putin cut off supply of parts and services to that factory. China didn't respond right away because there were internal debate of whether to take the offer and produce a copy of IL-76, or start fresh on a new design. The follow on postings lamented that there are too many "traitors" holding China back.

Frankly, I don't think these people understand the basic concept of "Intellectual property". Even if China received everything on IL-76, they still can't produce it unless authorized by Russia as long as China still wants to maintain friendly relationship with Russia.