China Flanker Thread II

[A.Man]

PLA Experts: China Does Not Need Su-35!

最近，俄罗斯苏霍伊公司宣布，到2015年底，将有48架最新式的苏-35多用途战斗机交付俄罗斯空军。这种飞机采用了最新研发的电子飞机技术，苏霍伊公司评价说苏-35的部分性能甚至已经超越了美国的F-22战机。 苏-35飞机到底有多先进？苏-35 PK F-22 谁是王者？中国需要苏-35吗？本周《陈虎点兵》与您一起关注苏-35。

苏-35究竟是几代机？

苏-35的外形总体上是在苏-27战斗机的基础上发展起来的，区别不是很大，本质区别在于采用了新型的发动机、新型的电传操纵系统、新型 的机载雷达系统和机载电子系统。从这几个新型来看，苏-35应该是苏-27系列战斗机的大改型，也有人把它叫做苏-27的最终改造型。

按照国际通用标准划分，苏-27是典型的三代机，属于三代机当中的重型战斗机，苏-35完成一系列改造之后，是不是能够一步跨越到四代战机这个行列？四代战机现在在世界范围内只有两个型号， 一个是美国的F-22，一个是美国的F-35，按照西方有关专家的评价方法，他们认为苏-35仅仅是一个三代半战机，也就是说在三代机的基础上，经过技术的全面提升，它的作战性能全面超过了三代机 ，但是和四代机相比仍然有一定的差距。

这种评价应该是有它的科学性，实际上每一代战机出现之后，研制和使用的国家都会不断的改进，会使老的战斗机 性能有一个很大的提升，一般来说，前一代战斗机的终极改进型和下一代战机的初始型的性能应该是比较接近的。 比如说美国研制的二代战机的F-4鬼怪式战斗机，在服役过程中也经过了不断的改进，F-4鬼怪的终极改进型出在以色列，当时以色列对鬼怪式进行了全面改装之后，拿出了一个试飞型号，之所以叫试飞 型号，是这一型飞机没有正式装备，但是做过试飞，以色列人管它叫做鬼怪2000，鬼怪2000主要的性能已 经和美国当时的三代机F-18大黄蜂的最初型号相当的接近。

苏-35和鬼怪的情况很像，是一个三代机，经过大规模改进之后，它的终极改造型号接近于下一代就是四代机的初始 型号，但即使这么说，也不能认定F-35的性能全面超过F-22，因为作为四代机标志性的几个东西，它并不具备。在国际通用标准当中，四代机的标志性的性能，一个是隐 身性能，这个苏-35肯定是不具备的，再比如说超音速巡航性能，现在还没有看到苏-35的超音速巡航到底达到一个什么程度，但是按照它这个飞机的气动布局，发动机的推力等这些情况来估计，它 应该没有像F-22那样优越的超音速巡航性能；在机载电子系统上可能接近于F-22或F-35的这种四代战机，当然它空中的机动能力应该是达到，甚至超过了F-22的某些能力。

俄罗斯方面的报道，对苏-35相当推崇，按照苏-35飞机副总设计师的说法，这架飞机的机动性能相当出色，能够实施所有类型的高级特技飞行动作，即使在空中 速度为零的情况下，仍然可以凭借矢量推力发动机转向所需要飞行的方向。而且苏-35上新型的向空雷达，可以探测到400公里以外的目标，可以跟踪30个目标，攻击8个目标，挂载能力8吨 。

我觉得按苏霍伊公司的说法，就是说苏-35的部分性能甚至超过了F-22，还是给自己留有余地的，它讲的是部分性能。

另外就是苏-35出口的问题，现在很多所谓的消息人士透出种种的风声，说这个国家对它感兴趣，那个国家对它感兴趣，甚至 把中国也列在其中了，我想很大一块的消息来源，应该是来自于俄罗斯方面。从这里我们可以看出， 苏-35这个型号将是他们未来推向市场，争夺世界战斗机市场上一个重要的举措，这型飞机还没有正式定型，就开始 散出种种的风声，实际这一型飞机真正的潜在用户，应该不会像现在这些消息透露的这样多。

首先这型飞机到目前为止还不能说是真正定型，它的技术稳定性还没有达到定型的这种程度，可能飞起来毛病还会 比较多。第二，像这样一个重型、复杂的先进战斗机，对一些小国、弱国来说，可能它的使用、维护、保养等等都 存在问题。

中国需要苏-35吗？

现代空战实际上是一种体系的对抗，单凭某一种性能先进的战斗机包打天下、夺取制空权的情况已经不复存在了。 任何一个战斗机，不管它的性能先进与否，它都是在一个大的体系下作战，而它能否取得空中的优势，关键在它这 个体系本身能不能形成优势。

我们在以往的局部战争当中看到过这种先例，比如说在科索沃战争当中，当时南联盟装备有米格29，很先进的三 代战机，它的对手是以美国为首的北约，装备的主战飞机也是三代飞机，但是在北约三代飞机面前，南联盟的米格 29三代机基本上处于一个被动挨打、没有还手之力的状况，没有取得任何的战绩，甚至没有对对方的战斗机形成 任何实质的威胁。因此，在这种体系对抗的情况下，一个国家靠引进某一型性能先进的战斗机来夺取空中优势的可 能性已经越来越小。

从我个人观点认为，中国并不需要苏-35这一型战斗机，或许它某些技术对我们来说是先进的，是需要的，但是作为一型完整的战斗机，对于今天的中 国来说，可能并不是那么至关重要，相对来说构筑一个先进的、完善的防空体系或空中作战体系，对我们来说是更 重要的，比如说预警系统，比如说机载武器，比如说电子战系统等等，它们对我们远远比苏-35战斗机要重要得多。更何况这些年来，中国航空工业、航空技术快速发展，在这种情况下，我们真的还需要完 全使用过去的那种拿来主义的方式，发展我们的空中主战装备吗？

[latenlazy]

What do the experts here think the odds are of China flying their fancy new J-15 in front of awestruck crowds on October 1st? High...Low?

Low. Wouldn't risk publicizing new technology that hasn't finished testing.

[maxx]

cnair recently updated their J-15 section link

Here's a couple of pics of the model of the plane

[Roger604]

Its time to start a new thread for J-15, the naval flanker.

Huitong (as we all know, a consistently reliable source) has added a brand new section.

J-15 is the first generation of Chinese shipborne fighter aircraft being developed by both 601 Institute and SAC for PLAN's first aircraft carrier. In the beginning there were rumors claiming that J-15 was a new semi-stealth design based on a similar but more advanced stealth design developed earlier by SAC/601 Institute to compete for the J-14 project (see below), but this design turned out to be a follow-on design. In order to save time and cut cost, the aircraft is now believed to be based on Russian Su-33 in terms of structural configuration and flight control system as well as domestic J-11B (see above) in terms of radar and weapon systems. Similar to Su-33, J-15 features a pair of small canard wings to improve its low speed handling and shortened tailcone to avoid tail-scrape during high AoA landing. Some key shipborne aircraft technologies such as landing/navigational systems are believed to have been obtained from Russia and Ukraine. One Su-33 prototype (T-10K-3) was acquired from Ukraine around 2001 and has been studied extensively. J-15 is believed to share many common components with J-11B, such as a similar radar, the same glass cockpit as well as the improved WS-10 turbofan engine. It can also fire a variety of Chinese designed weapons, including PL-8, PL-12 AAMs and YJ-83K AShM. Overall J-15 is believed to be in the same class of American F/A-18C. The first prototype has been undergoing assembly at SAC since 2008. J-15 is expected first to be stationed onboard the Varyag aircraft carrier currently being fitted in Dalian. The latest news suggested that the first prototype made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered initially by Russian AL-31F turbofan engines

Chinese Military Aviation

[Semi-Lobster]

Its time to start a new thread for J-15, the naval flanker.

Huitong (as we all know, a consistently reliable source) has added a brand new section.



Chinese Military Aviation

Another Flanker variant, not too surprising considering its Shenyang. It will be interesting to see how Shenyang's J-15 and Chengdu's J-14 competition develops (even though we'll probably be scrounging for information most of the time). It is a very important point to make though that it seems the J-15 project seems to be further ahead in development than the J-14 which will be a big factor to take into consideration.

[Roger604]

J-15 appears to be just an adapted J-11B. It should be more properly compared to J-10B, also in prototype stage (though it's advancing rapidly).

It looks like PLAAF has one squadron of J-11B only (converted in 2007), which suggests that when J-11B truly enters mass production / deployment (soon, now that WS-10A is now considered reliable enough for mass production) it will be designed to share many components with J-15.

[tphuang]

Its time to start a new thread for J-15, the naval flanker.

Huitong (as we all know, a consistently reliable source) has added a brand new section.
Chinese Military Aviation

we will add it if we feel it's needed, after all, it's still just a flanker.
We haven't even got any photos of it yet.
We certainly didn't start a new section for J-10B.

cnair recently updated their J-15 section link

Here's a couple of pics of the model of the plane

[qimg]http://p13.freep.cn/p.aspx?u=v20_p13_p_0909042200182837_0.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://p13.freep.cn/p.aspx?u=v20_p13_p_0909042200191708_0.jpg[/qimg]

you just posted a couple of pictures of childish models. Does the shark teeth not tell you it's a total joke?

[Roger604]

The CAD drawing of the J-15 on Huitong's site is interesting. Are the wings on the J-15 narrower than on other flankers? Or is it just the angle that makes it appear that way?

[maxx]

you just posted a couple of pictures of childish models. Does the shark teeth not tell you it's a total joke?

Perhaps. However cnair calls it "flying shark" and the person from forum I got the pics from called it "black shark". Yeah, I know this doesn't mean anything but time will tell. Maybe I'll learn that some sources aren't to be trusted.

The CAD drawing of the J-15 on Huitong's site is interesting. Are the wings on the J-15 narrower than on other flankers? Or is it just the angle that makes it appear that way?

The right side is missing the moving parts ie aileron, rudder...

[FriedRiceNSpice]

If Shenyang's 5th generation design ever actually makes it past the drawing boards, I'm sure it will be, "based on the J-11B/Su-37 and initially powered by AL-31/AL-41 engines."

[Wolverine]

If Shenyang's 5th generation design ever actually makes it past the drawing boards, I'm sure it will be, "based on the J-11B/Su-37 and initially powered by AL-31/AL-41 engines."

How could anything based on the J-11B be a 5th generation fighter? There are only so many things that can be done to fix the RCS of that design, and I'm sure all the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard in the J-11B when they modded it from the Su-27. The limits of this old design should be reached by a 4.5 generation iteration.

[Troika]

How could anything based on the J-11B be a 5th generation fighter? There are only so many things that can be done to fix the RCS of that design, and I'm sure all the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard in the J-11B when they modded it from the Su-27. The limits of this old design should be reached by a 4.5 generation iteration.

Not quite, there are some more improvements that can be made - quite a few, actually, an active EW suite, AESA radar, better engines. The limit's still 4.5, though, like the Su-35.

But anyway, I think you missed the point, which was satirising the ineptitude of Shenyang.

[Semi-Lobster]

How could anything based on the J-11B be a 5th generation fighter? There are only so many things that can be done to fix the RCS of that design, and I'm sure all the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard in the J-11B when they modded it from the Su-27. The limits of this old design should be reached by a 4.5 generation iteration.

I think he was making a joke about Shenyang's lack of 'diversity' in their aircraft if you know what I mean.

[Semi-Lobster]

Oddly enough, we are back to where we started. At first it was believed that the naval fighter would be based off the J-11B, then rumors circulated that it would be a semi-stealth design. Now it's back to J-11B

I think what we have hear is a better understanding of the 'race' for a navalised carrier-based fighter aircraft between Shenyang and Chengdu and we now finally have a line drawn into the sand, Shenyang on one side with an Su-27/Su-33 based Flanker variant that, from what we understand, would be simpler design and built vs. Chengdu with a newly designed fighter of unknown (but assumingly stealthier) capabilities that is designed from scratch and like the earlier J-8II vs. J-9 competition between the two, its certainly winner takes all as I highly doubt the PLANAF would be interested in supported to very different aircraft for the same role.

[HKSDU]

What do the experts here think the odds are of China flying their fancy new J-15 in front of awestruck crowds on October 1st? High...Low?

Non-existant, I'll be shocked just to see the J-10B make an appearance.

How could anything based on the J-11B be a 5th generation fighter? There are only so many things that can be done to fix the RCS of that design, and I'm sure all the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard in the J-11B when they modded it from the Su-27. The limits of this old design should be reached by a 4.5 generation iteration.

F-22 and F-15E, they both share common overall structural layout and apperances.